@Nic_Mercy Right, not important to me. I'm totally fine with them romancing women. I have absolutely no idea what kind of point your making. Would you at least try to be as pleasant to me as I am to you?
The point I am making is that you have many options but want more, when others have barely any options. Those others are grateful for the small crumbs they have but you don't seem to appreciate the veritable feast spread before you because that one basket of bread is on someone else's table.
HELLO THERE, I'm a gay male player who thinks "everyone is bi" completely sucks and I look forward to play the Hexxat romance with my female charname because I roleplay.
For those new to roleplaying, I shall explain this concept to you, so you too can enjoy it!
ELI5: Roleplaying
"Roleplaying" is kind of like acting. It comes from "role" (a fictional character) and "playing" (pretending to be this fictional character). I know, it's confusing at first, so I give you an example. In "Silence of Lambs", Anthony Hopkins (he is an "actor", that's like the "player", only in a movie) plays Hannibal Lector (the "role", meaning this person isn't real). Hannibal Lector is a cannibal (someone who eats other humans). Anthony Hopkins, of course, is not a cannibal (it's not legal in most countries, so if he did, he would be a "criminal", not an "actor") and he eats no humans. He just pretends to do that when he roleplays Hannibal Lector. When he is not roleplaying Hannibal Lector, he doesn't do that. Then he normal things like fries, just like everyone else.
In real life, I'm not a woman and I also don't want to date women. When I roleplay my female character, I pretend that she is into women, just like Anthony Hopkins pretends to be a cannibal. That doesn't mean I become a woman when I'm not roleplaying, just like Anthony Hopkins doesn't become a cannibal. (Would be worse for him, he'd get arrested!!!!) It also doesn't mean I ditch my boyfriend for a woman in real life, just like Anthony Hopkins doesn't throw his fries away and eats humans. (Again, would be way worse for him, haha!)
The cool thing about "roleplaying" is that you can pretend to be many things that you can't be in real life (or wouldn't want to be, like cannibal) with no consequences! If you would try to pretend you can fly in real life, you would probably fall on your face and that would hurt you. OUCH! Who would want that? No-one! In roleplay, you can pretend to be a bird or just that you have wings - and not fall on your face! Totally cool! You can also pretend to have superpowers or be something that doesn't even exist in reality, like roleplaying an elf or a WIZARD.
I hope this short introduction sparked the interest of some of you to give it a try; it's a fun thing to do! Next week, I will explain the difference between apples and oranges - see you then!
Am gonna teach you something too...
First lesson : people are different that's why equality works That said that some people actually play differently... some people pretend to be the player.. some like you.. roleplays like reading a book... both are fine
Being condescending wont calm anything, being insulting will make it worse
The thing about Anomen though, his personality was horrible. So horrible that I wish Bioware did Haer'Dalis instead of Anomen, because at least Haer'Dalis has a better personality.
As for Hexxat, I already have a female character in mind for her.
Research, eg Chivers et. al, has shown that women are, on average, sexually bi-curious to a greater degree than men. This fact helps explain why women are, again to a greater degree, capable of getting into homosexual romances, even when they themselves are straight, while the opposite is not necessarily the case for men. Hence, it is from men that we normally see the sort of vehement opposition to LGBT options that appear on these and Bioware's boards. Of course, that doesn't make it correct.
It is also the case that the appeal of BGEE, in a lot of ways, is the new content. Thus, bringing up the imbalance in BG 2 is not going to sway minds, because that's not what the bulk of people are paying for.
To this end, I think the argument comes down to this: does past imbalance justify future imbalance in the other direction? For this logic, I think, is at the heart of the problem. Given that discrimination against female gamers is wrong, is discrimination against male gamers therefore the proper way to redress the issue?
@Nic_Mercy Right, not important to me. I'm totally fine with them romancing women. I have absolutely no idea what kind of point your making. Would you at least try to be as pleasant to me as I am to you?
The point I am making is that you have many options but want more, when others have barely any options. Those others are grateful for the small crumbs they have but you don't seem to appreciate the veritable feast spread before you because that one basket of bread is on someone else's table.
So what does that have to do with Dorn and Rasaad?
Stop comparing romance to food please?
Yes I see the math 4vs3. Women get 3 hetero options, guys get 4. However, women got much more quality and depth out of their 3 than men did from their 4. So I don't see your point?
@Nic_Mercy Right, not important to me. I'm totally fine with them romancing women. I have absolutely no idea what kind of point your making. Would you at least try to be as pleasant to me as I am to you?
The point I am making is that you have many options but want more, when others have barely any options. Those others are grateful for the small crumbs they have but you don't seem to appreciate the veritable feast spread before you because that one basket of bread is on someone else's table.
So what does that have to do with Dorn and Rasaad?
Stop comparing romance to food please?
Yes I see the math 4vs3. Women get 3 hetero options, guys get 4. However, women got much more quality and depth out of their 3 than men did from their 4. So I don't see your point?
And you probably never will. I give up. This topic is just too draining to keep posting.
To this end, I think the argument comes down to this: does past imbalance justify future imbalance in the other direction? For this logic, I think, is at the heart of the problem. Given that discrimination against female gamers is wrong, is discrimination against male gamers therefore the proper way to redress the issue?
1) Putting a single lesbian romance in a game with eight romances (five of which are available to male PCs) is not "discrimination against male gamers", and it is self-evidently ridiculous to say it is.
2) The Enhanced Editions added four romances. Three of them are available to female PCs. Three of them are available to male PCs. That is, you might notice, equal.
One of the serious problems with people being exclusively catered to is that "equality" feels like "the minority being catered to" to many of them, because they are used to getting everything.
2) The Enhanced Editions added four romances. Three of them are available to female PCs. Three of them are available to male PCs. That is, you might notice, equal.
And you probably never will. I give up. This topic is just too draining to keep posting.
It's really too bad you were too condescending and mad to make a point?
I made my point you just didn't get it. And even if I try to explain it you still wont get it because if it's not "important to you" then it doesn't matter.
I'll try one last time. You're selfish. Spoiled. Unappreciative of all that you have while others are grateful to have even a fraction of what you take for granted. THAT IS MY POINT.
I'm pretty confused at the somewhat "Anti-Hexxat being a Lesbian" side of the conversation in here.
Also, it might be a shock to you, but not *all* companies put out games and content for cash. Some of them release content aimed at specified parties, just because they want too. Not because they want to get more or less money.
I mean, does anyone actually *think* before they make a disrespectful thread/comment? They work their asses off to release new romances and LGBT related romances (As there weren't any in the game.) so that everyone has the chance to be happy and have the RPG experience they've always craved, that other games just refuse to deliver. (DoA for example, everyone basically being 'Bisexual', as they put it.) Yet, people are *still* really unhappy and outraged?!
Why can't people just be satisfied and happy for the content that was worked so hard on? Is it *really* that hard to accept the fact that other people get to be happy and that it's not all about *you* and your mass majority brethren? Get over yourselves, honestly. There's more to Gaming than just hot saucy women who are programmed to want your ____.
I don't see anyone making a war path because of the other romances, only the Gay ones. So much Anti-Anything-I-Don't-Like-Attitude... Really starting to get under my skin!
Perhaps, anyone who has a problem with the Hexxat/Dorn Romance, should just not even be on these Forums, seeing as all you've got to contribute is an appalling 60's attitude.
Whoops, you're right. I forgot Rasaad was female-only. Doesn't change the overall point, though. There's still two new romance options for males, including a male-only one. That leaves the overall picture at:
Aerie: Male Viconia: Male Jaheira: Male Anomen: Female Neera: Male Hexxat: Female Rasaad: Female Dorn: Male or female
5 romances for males, 4 for females. 7 hetero romances (including female/Dorn), 2 homosexual ones. Calling the fact one romance is only for female homosexuals "discrimination" against hetero males is absurd, even ignoring the fact that hetero males are not locked into playing only hetero male characters.
And you probably never will. I give up. This topic is just too draining to keep posting.
It's really too bad you were too condescending and mad to make a point?
I made my point you just didn't get it. And even if I try to explain it you still wont get it because if it's not "important to you" then it doesn't matter.
I'll try one last time. You're selfish. Spoiled. Unappreciative of all that you have while others are grateful to have even a fraction of what you take for granted. THAT IS MY POINT.
So you're point is I'm selfish and spoiled as a result of taking small dissapointment in purchasing a game where I am the target audience and most of the improvements ignore me? For the most part, this is why I'm upset. Not Hexxat really...
Since I have listened to your downlooking lecture kindly give me a moment of your time. Let me ask you something: If a game targeted you as an audience, that is, the homosexual male, and you purchased an enhanced version of it where in the enhancements virtually every other audience got more representation than you, you would be spoiled for taking any displeasure? At all? Or would you just be grateful you got a fraction of the improvements catered to you?
>"So you're point is I'm selfish and spoiled as a result of taking small dissapointment in purchasing a game where I am the target audience and most of the improvements ignore me?"<
Since when did the BG team make their games all about the Adventures and Promiscuity of Sersafir? Last time I checked it was a game made for the mass public and fans of the series. If the game was made just for you and your seriously closed and selfish mind, it would be THEE most BORING game on this planet.
Please just leave the Forums or something. Your views, argument and logic is vastly upsetting.
Baldur's Gate didn't "target a heterosexual male audience". It was made in a time when video games by and large didn't acknowledge there was any other audience.
Also, again, it is asinine to suggest that having a lesbian romance in a game is somehow excluding heterosexual males. I'm a heterosexual male, and playing a female charname hasn't made my genitals fall off yet. It also won't turn me gay if I romance Dorn, astoundingly. Don't lump all heterosexual males together with the likes of you.
1) Putting a single lesbian romance in a game with eight romances (five of which are available to male PCs) is not "discrimination against male gamers", and it is self-evidently ridiculous to say it is.
2) The Enhanced Editions added four romances. Three of them are available to female PCs. Three of them are available to male PCs. That is, you might notice, equal.
One of the serious problems with people being exclusively catered to is that "equality" feels like "the minority being catered to" to many of them, because they are used to getting everything.
1. Were this a new game, then I am compelled to agree. But it isn't. I agree that Beamdog's decision redresses the imbalance of what Bioware did, but is it productive to argue that male gamers ought to pay for Bioware's discrimination towards female gamers 15 years ago? The bulk of the people who bought BGEE and BG2EE are not new to the game: for them it is the new content & improvements that give it purchase value. I don't think it's valid to bring up the imbalances of the old BG2, because that boat - and the money people spent to board it - has already sailed.
2. I'm afraid that is simply mathematically incorrect. There are three romances available to female PCs. Two to males.
1. Were this a new game, then I am compelled to agree. But it isn't. I agree that Beamdog's decision redresses the imbalance of what Bioware did, but is it productive to argue that male gamers ought to pay for Bioware's discrimination towards female gamers 15 years ago?
Being a male does not mean you can't play a female character. Your entire argument is based on a ridiculous falsehood. You are not "paying" for anything.
You can put yourself in the head of a dwarf, a wizard, a spawn of a god of murder, a person who would kill a beggar in the street for laughs, or a person who is so devoted to a god they get holy power from it, but you can't put yourself in the head of a girl?
I'd like to say I'm sorry you might have to roleplay to experience all the content in a roleplaying game, but I'm not in fact sorry for that at all.
Baldur's Gate didn't "target a heterosexual male audience". It was made in a time when video games by and large didn't acknowledge there was any other audience.
Also, again, it is asinine to suggest that having a lesbian romance in a game is somehow excluding heterosexual males. I'm a heterosexual male, and playing a female charname hasn't made my genitals fall off yet. It also won't turn me gay if I romance Dorn, astoundingly. Don't lump all heterosexual males together with the likes of you.
Some heterosexual males don't play as a female. I've tried it, but it never clicked. Every time I did I struggled to get into the role. The single game I gave it a shot for the sake of trying was me avoiding most dialogue with guys. Xan [modded] tried to romance me, Anomen needed me to say rude things to him to get him to stop calling me "my lady" and I felt bad. I didn't want to play, most of the game I just wanted things to be over.
I'm not saying all hetero males are like me, but I don't think my inability to immerse myself as a woman is that uncommon.
>"So you're point is I'm selfish and spoiled as a result of taking small dissapointment in purchasing a game where I am the target audience and most of the improvements ignore me?"<
Since when did the BG team make their games all about the Adventures and Promiscuity of Sersafir? Last time I checked it was a game made for the mass public and fans of the series. If the game was made just for you and your seriously closed and selfish mind, it would be THEE most BORING game on this planet.
Please just leave the Forums or something. Your views, argument and logic is vastly upsetting.
I never said it was made about me. Just that I was in the target audience. The hetero males. I didn't mean to make you so mad.
I'm not saying all hetero males are like me, but I don't think my inability to immerse myself as a woman is that uncommon.
It isn't. But I'd like you to look at all the people you HAVE played. They are all children of a god of murder. Most likely they include some people who use magic. Some probably worship gods that don't, in real life, exist. Some of them probably held wildly different notions about right and wrong than you did. It's very likely that at least some of them aren't even human beings.
All of them, you could get into the role of. You could get into the role of a thing that isn't even human, but you couldn't get into the role of a woman?
I'm being very honest, not insulting when I say: you should probably take a few minutes and try to figure out why that is, and what it says about you.
1. Were this a new game, then I am compelled to agree. But it isn't. I agree that Beamdog's decision redresses the imbalance of what Bioware did, but is it productive to argue that male gamers ought to pay for Bioware's discrimination towards female gamers 15 years ago?
Being a male does not mean you can't play a female character. Your entire argument is based on a ridiculous falsehood. You are not "paying" for anything.
You can put yourself in the head of a dwarf, a wizard, a spawn of a god of murder, a person who would kill a beggar in the street for laughs, or a person who is so devoted to a god they get holy power from it, but you can't put yourself in the head of a girl?
I'd like to say I'm sorry you might have to roleplay to experience all the content in a roleplaying game, but I'm not in fact sorry for that at all.
The problem is that 'roleplaying' is not a carte blanche for discounting individual differences in enjoyment. For example, a lot of people don't enjoy racing games. Yet, by your logic, why don't they just put themselves in the head of a racer? Why don't they just imagine that they're a racer? Surely that then makes racing enjoyable..
...But of course, it doesn't. The roleplaying argument, when used in this manner, is a fallacy. Just because people are capable of roleplaying a character, does not make that experience necessarily enjoyable - and people play games to enjoy them, not to just get through them.
But you really aren't the target audience. This isn't 20 years ago. The target audience is anyone and everyone who wants to play the game. Heterosexual Male or not. I, quite frankly put, don't understand where all your nonsense of the target audience being Heterosexual Males is coming from. If that was the case, surely Hexxat and Dorn would be only romanceable by their opposing genders? This, obviously, is not the case. So how have you come to this completely delusional idea that the game is tailored towards thee audience that consists of Heterosexual Males?
Also, I see you've decided to be very literal and completely exclude or, rather, forget altogether that Heterosexual Females exist? To me, you talk as if there's only such a thing as Heterosexual Males.
I'm not saying all hetero males are like me, but I don't think my inability to immerse myself as a woman is that uncommon.
It isn't. But I'd like you to look at all the people you HAVE played. They are all children of a god of murder. Most likely they include some people who use magic. Some probably worship gods that don't, in real life, exist. Some of them probably held wildly different notions about right and wrong than you did. It's very likely that at least some of them aren't even human beings.
All of them, you could get into the role of. You could get into the role of a thing that isn't even human, but you couldn't get into the role of a woman?
I'm being very honest, not insulting when I say: you should probably take a few minutes and try to figure out why that is, and what it says about you.
That my role as a person has changed from time to time, but my sexual identity hasn't?
The problem is that 'roleplaying' is not a carte blanche for discounting individual differences in enjoyment. For example, a lot of people don't enjoy racing games. Yet, by your logic, why don't they just put themselves in the head of a racer? Why don't they just imagine that they're a racer? Surely that then makes racing enjoyable..
That is an insane argument. You are equating playing an entirely different videogame with playing the same videogame with a different character (something you already have to do for every single romance). As should be needless to say, those are not equivalent.
...But of course, it doesn't. The roleplaying argument, when used in this manner, is a fallacy. Just because people are capable of roleplaying a character, does not make that experience necessarily enjoyable - and people play games to enjoy them, not to just get through them.
If you can't play a fantasy RPG where your protagonist is a female character, then you don't get to romance Anomen, Hexxat or Rasaad. That wasn't discrimination against you when it was just Anomen, and it isn't discrimination now.
That my role as a person has changed from time to time, but my sexual identity hasn't?
The character you play in a fantasy role playing game has absolutely nothing to do with your sexual identity. If you think it does... again, you should ask yourself why.
But you really aren't the target audience. This isn't 20 years ago. The target audience is anyone and everyone who wants to play the game. Heterosexual Male or not. I, quite frankly put, don't understand where all your nonsense of the target audience being Heterosexual Males is coming from. If that was the case, surely Hexxat and Dorn would be only romanceable by their opposing genders? This, obviously, is not the case. So how have you come to this completely delusional idea that the game is tailored towards thee audience that consists of Heterosexual Males?
Also, I see you've decided to be very literal and completely exclude or, rather, forget altogether that Heterosexual Females exist? To me, you talk as if there's only such a thing as Heterosexual Males.
Look, if you don't change your condescending tone to me, I'm going to ignore you. I'm really not sure what you're arguing. That Baldur's Gate 2 Enhanced Edition, the Dungeons and Dragons role playing game was made in mind for the sake of improving things for broad audience play as opposed to its primary audience?
Beleive it or not, heterosexual males, that's the majority of their purchasers. Only about 10% of females play this according to the statistics I've looked over on the forums. I actually mention them several times in this forum. So I'm really not sure why you think I think they don't exist.
I shouldn't poke fun at someone like this... However... I do find it rather amusing that someone genuinely believes being a Lesbian in a game will cause some kind of change within themselves in real life.
That my role as a person has changed from time to time, but my sexual identity hasn't?
The character you play in a fantasy role playing game has absolutely nothing to do with your sexual identity. If you think it does... again, you should ask yourself why.
I did. My answer? My identity as a male counts. It's the only one I know. I don't know how to roleplay a girl. Nor would I want to.
Maybe you should ask yourself why you're so comfy roleplaying as a female? Tell me what you get since I have been so kind as to tell you what I think.
I shouldn't poke fun at someone like this... However... I do find it rather amusing that someone genuinely believes being a Lesbian in a game will cause some kind of change within themselves in real life.
Comments
First lesson : people are different that's why equality works
That said that some people actually play differently... some people pretend to be the player.. some like you.. roleplays like reading a book... both are fine
Being condescending wont calm anything, being insulting will make it worse
I belive you are being both
As for Hexxat, I already have a female character in mind for her.
It is also the case that the appeal of BGEE, in a lot of ways, is the new content. Thus, bringing up the imbalance in BG 2 is not going to sway minds, because that's not what the bulk of people are paying for.
To this end, I think the argument comes down to this: does past imbalance justify future imbalance in the other direction? For this logic, I think, is at the heart of the problem. Given that discrimination against female gamers is wrong, is discrimination against male gamers therefore the proper way to redress the issue?
Stop comparing romance to food please?
Yes I see the math 4vs3. Women get 3 hetero options, guys get 4. However, women got much more quality and depth out of their 3 than men did from their 4. So I don't see your point?
I think this dude just hit the nail spot on... u couldn't have said it better myself, everyone read that damn post
The road to equality cannot be paved with discrimination.
My vote would be "no"
2) The Enhanced Editions added four romances. Three of them are available to female PCs. Three of them are available to male PCs. That is, you might notice, equal.
One of the serious problems with people being exclusively catered to is that "equality" feels like "the minority being catered to" to many of them, because they are used to getting everything.
Neera->Male
Dorn->Male+Female
Rasaad->Female.
That, as you might notice, isn't?
I'll try one last time. You're selfish. Spoiled. Unappreciative of all that you have while others are grateful to have even a fraction of what you take for granted. THAT IS MY POINT.
Also, it might be a shock to you, but not *all* companies put out games and content for cash.
Some of them release content aimed at specified parties, just because they want too. Not because they want to get more or less money.
I mean, does anyone actually *think* before they make a disrespectful thread/comment?
They work their asses off to release new romances and LGBT related romances (As there weren't any in the game.) so that everyone has the chance to be happy and have the RPG experience they've always craved, that other games just refuse to deliver. (DoA for example, everyone basically being 'Bisexual', as they put it.) Yet, people are *still* really unhappy and outraged?!
Why can't people just be satisfied and happy for the content that was worked so hard on? Is it *really* that hard to accept the fact that other people get to be happy and that it's not all about *you* and your mass majority brethren? Get over yourselves, honestly. There's more to Gaming than just hot saucy women who are programmed to want your ____.
I don't see anyone making a war path because of the other romances, only the Gay ones. So much Anti-Anything-I-Don't-Like-Attitude... Really starting to get under my skin!
Perhaps, anyone who has a problem with the Hexxat/Dorn Romance, should just not even be on these Forums, seeing as all you've got to contribute is an appalling 60's attitude.
P.S.
Apologies for the rant.
~Tubby
Aerie: Male
Viconia: Male
Jaheira: Male
Anomen: Female
Neera: Male
Hexxat: Female
Rasaad: Female
Dorn: Male or female
5 romances for males, 4 for females. 7 hetero romances (including female/Dorn), 2 homosexual ones. Calling the fact one romance is only for female homosexuals "discrimination" against hetero males is absurd, even ignoring the fact that hetero males are not locked into playing only hetero male characters.
Since I have listened to your downlooking lecture kindly give me a moment of your time. Let me ask you something: If a game targeted you as an audience, that is, the homosexual male, and you purchased an enhanced version of it where in the enhancements virtually every other audience got more representation than you, you would be spoiled for taking any displeasure? At all? Or would you just be grateful you got a fraction of the improvements catered to you?
Can I, like, actually slap you on the wrist?
>"So you're point is I'm selfish and spoiled as a result of taking small dissapointment in purchasing a game where I am the target audience and most of the improvements ignore me?"<
Since when did the BG team make their games all about the Adventures and Promiscuity of Sersafir?
Last time I checked it was a game made for the mass public and fans of the series. If the game was made just for you and your seriously closed and selfish mind, it would be THEE most BORING game on this planet.
Please just leave the Forums or something. Your views, argument and logic is vastly upsetting.
Also, again, it is asinine to suggest that having a lesbian romance in a game is somehow excluding heterosexual males. I'm a heterosexual male, and playing a female charname hasn't made my genitals fall off yet. It also won't turn me gay if I romance Dorn, astoundingly. Don't lump all heterosexual males together with the likes of you.
2. I'm afraid that is simply mathematically incorrect. There are three romances available to female PCs. Two to males.
You can put yourself in the head of a dwarf, a wizard, a spawn of a god of murder, a person who would kill a beggar in the street for laughs, or a person who is so devoted to a god they get holy power from it, but you can't put yourself in the head of a girl?
I'd like to say I'm sorry you might have to roleplay to experience all the content in a roleplaying game, but I'm not in fact sorry for that at all.
I'm not saying all hetero males are like me, but I don't think my inability to immerse myself as a woman is that uncommon.
All of them, you could get into the role of. You could get into the role of a thing that isn't even human, but you couldn't get into the role of a woman?
I'm being very honest, not insulting when I say: you should probably take a few minutes and try to figure out why that is, and what it says about you.
...But of course, it doesn't. The roleplaying argument, when used in this manner, is a fallacy. Just because people are capable of roleplaying a character, does not make that experience necessarily enjoyable - and people play games to enjoy them, not to just get through them.
But you really aren't the target audience. This isn't 20 years ago. The target audience is anyone and everyone who wants to play the game. Heterosexual Male or not. I, quite frankly put, don't understand where all your nonsense of the target audience being Heterosexual Males is coming from. If that was the case, surely Hexxat and Dorn would be only romanceable by their opposing genders? This, obviously, is not the case. So how have you come to this completely delusional idea that the game is tailored towards thee audience that consists of Heterosexual Males?
Also, I see you've decided to be very literal and completely exclude or, rather, forget altogether that Heterosexual Females exist? To me, you talk as if there's only such a thing as Heterosexual Males.
Beleive it or not, heterosexual males, that's the majority of their purchasers. Only about 10% of females play this according to the statistics I've looked over on the forums. I actually mention them several times in this forum. So I'm really not sure why you think I think they don't exist.
Maybe you should ask yourself why you're so comfy roleplaying as a female? Tell me what you get since I have been so kind as to tell you what I think. Who said that?