I'm just going to say this now. No. Clara should not become a full time NPC. Her purpose was to die, and that's exactly what happened. She has no purpose beyond that. Also, that scene happens in a blink of an eye. So, unless CHARNAME is a diviner, or some how knows that Hexxat is a Vampire, and knows that Hexxat is going to feed on Clara. Then, there really is no way to save Clara.
If you want a way to save her life, I wouldn't necessarily object to it. There is perhaps a lack of roleplay potential for good parties in the quest.
But Clara as an NPC? Why? She's an average-at-best vanilla thief with a standard commoner's backstory. You could write something for her with that to build off of in a vacuum, but that sort of character has no place joining the party in Baldur's Gate. What right does she have to accompany a demigod on his/her epic quest?
I would INFINITELY prefer another DLC party member. Something new, fresh, and powerful. A neutral Cleric/Thief, for example, would be nice.
What right does any of the mortal muppets have to accompany a "demigod" on his/her epic quest? :P
Even so, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one wanting to see a full version Clara!
Let's say she was in fact made into a DLC for complete npc. If it was a 5$ investment and not an automatic update, those not wanting to see any change in it wouldn't have to. It would all remain the same and everyone would be happy.
Just because someone choose to have one npc dlc or another and you don't, doesn't make your non-dlc game any less real or authentic.
I say make a complete npc out of Clara and let's have fun with whatever comes of it!
I voted yes, mostly due to the whole Good/Neutral/Evil alignment thing. The scene is supposedly emotional, yes? So how is it fair to say that nobody would want to save the helpless girl. Regardless of her becoming an PC or not, that's not really my point. Just the option to at least save her would be fine. I don't even want to do the quest, purely because it means I have to watch some poor, defenseless, brainwashed girl murdered, right in front of me, with no option to even try to save her, besides leaving her in the Copper Coronet to live her days out as a mindless, brainwashed imbecile. I think it's really unfair that you're not allowed to save her. It forces you to take on an evil PC, because you went through all that trouble to get to this point of the game. Don't get me wrong, I support the decision to introduce Hexxat by 100%, I just, personally, believe it's ridiculously unfair to make all the more emotionally involved / Good players to have to watch the girl die and not kill the evil they have technically sworn to destroy. Instead, they are conned into helping a Vampire. Which, technically, makes you automatically of an Evil Alignment, regardless of what Alignment you are. You just saved a Vampire for god's sake... Even if you don't take Hexxat with you, you still got Clara killed, unknowingly.
This may be a bit off topic, but accidentally helping the cause of Evil isn't an Evil act and does not have any bearing on your alignment. Alignment is determined by conscious choices only.
Fafnir, I'm beginning to think there is no point to this thread. Both OP and that mrpenfold fellow seem unable to grasp simple concepts. I'm beginning to wonder if mrdpenfold can even read.
I clearly said that the "innocent, wide-eyed, know-nothing" archtype is already present in the game in both Nalia and Aerie. Nothing about their alignments/goals, simply the archtype.
And then he goes on with this: "Do I forge my own path/serve a master?" nonsense. Umm... Dorn?
There is NOTHING that can be done with Clara that is new, exciting, fresh. That was Hexxat, and Clara was a means to an end for that exciting freshness.
@Edwin 'The Spammaster' Odesseiron, your walls of text were no doubt interesting reads, but sorry, I took one look and realised I had more important things to do
Clearly you're just here for the sake of the argument Edwin >.<
I've given you my reasons several times. I like her, I prefer it to keep her around. Why? Because that's just how it is. Great portrait, great voice actor, fun concept.
The fact that you disagree doesn't make my reasons any less valid. It's just a feature request, silly.
You're basically asking me to defend why i support Cambridge United, which is a bottom league club with nothing to really separate it from any other club in the lower leagues - for the neutral onlooker. And I'd have to say "That's just how it is. I like them, don't really have a scientific or grand reason for it"
Just as it is with Clara. I don't feel that I need any grand specific reasons to justify a feature request. Nor are you in a position to demand one either.. it's really becomming quite silly the way you're bombing a thread, doubting peoples ability to read, throwing around accusations of fanboy'ism and what not. And for what? A feature request you happen to disagree with.
Hexxat is a Vampire and Vampire "use" and kill people. Like Clara. The story is authentic and realistic.
People who play with "good" groups and therefore want to rescue Clara would never side with a vampire afterwards. Every "good" charakter, or Keldorn or Anomen, would instantly kill Hexxat afterwards. So Clara gets at least a revenge.
Evil charakters would say "casualties have to be made" and side with Hexxat.
Rescuing Clara ends up to make the Hexxat-Story totally unrealistic - or one can write a completely new one.
A Clara mod would just be a satisfaction of "I want to save everyone and nobody has to die"-feelings. All we know about her is that she came to Athkatla to be an actress. For me, thats just too little for a good mod.
They should make Clara and Hexxat mutually exclusive. If you want Clara, you have to kill Hexxat. If you want Hexxat, Clara needs to go.
Most definitely. As it has been stated elsewhere by... actually, I forget who was saying it, but Clara's death is a defining moment for Hexxat. Should Clara be made a companion, it needs to come at the cost of not being able to recruit Hexxat or else it will just seem cheap and empty, both Clara's and Hexxat's stories.
@Edwin_Odesseiron and yeah, while I may not like Jan, I must agree that "boring" isn't an applicable word for him.
Anyone remember the quest in Mass Effect 2 when you were helping Samara (sp?) hunt down her biotic-vampire daughter? At the climax of that quest, the two lock in a mental struggle, and you get to choose which to help. Whichever you help joins your team, a powerful biotic.
This isn't that.
Clara is a mind-raped peasant/prostitute. Hexxat is vampire-lesbian Lara Croft. One is a great party member, the other isn't. Does Clara have a good voice actor and portrait? Absolutely! But there's a reason for that: it sells the twist. I, for one, was completely thrown off when it turned out my Hexxat was only a projection of the real one.
(And what am I missing with the repeated reference to her good voice acting? Sure, the actor sells the bit, but the end result is a character that sounds like a drunk sorority girl you have to re-train to climb stairs. Who listened to that and decided they wanted that for their main party?)
I mean... what side quests do you even write for such a character? We get to heroically hold her hand as she struggles to become a basic grunt-level Shadow Thief? Do we get scintillating dialogue as she expresses amazement at the party's ability to handle basic-level enemies such as hobgoblins? Will she faint from fear the first time she sees a dragon?
I don't want a random commoner in my party. That works in other games and other stories, but Baldur's Gate isn't that story. Baldur's Gate is the story of a demigod and his or her exceedingly powerful companions, not a rag-tag group of street youths defying the odds to achieve greatness.
Bottom line: There's a reason some people are vehemently against such an NPC. Beamdog actually listens to us, and these feature requests are read. I don't want them to make their first DLC npc Clara. I want something else. In such a rich world as Baldur's Gate, why are you guys so intent on a vanilla human thief with bad stats and no special abilities? Jeez.
What you're listing up is actually why I want to keep her around. Every single npc has some form of epicness to them. They're all superspecial individuals and to be honest, it gets a little tiresome after a while.
I'd really appreciate an npc who is not fundamentally biased for some reason or another. An npc who actually observes the world and adapts to the challenges.
Currently the only ones that actually do that in some respects are Sarevok, Viconia and Aerie. Though the latter one isn't that great to have around unless Charname is Dr Phil.
An npc like Clara could really be awesome. To develop her skills and mindset as the game unfolds. To come from nothing and actually tell a story of growth, not alien in comparison to Charname.
In fact, such an npc could even be open to change down to the very core. Become truly evil if pushed, or perhaps a force of righteousness if shown the way.. or stay neutral. Kind of how Imoen -should- have been. A reflection of Charnames choices, personified in a person connected to him/her.
I believe Clara represents this opportunity and it'd be a shame if the devs don't act on it.
Honestly? I'd like to see some deep story and content like with the other new npcs, but I'd be satisfied with just a few banters and an alignment change, just so long as I can have a non-dual/multi class, non-evil thief.
I realy like idea let Clara be blank sheet of paper. Paper which we can rewrite as we ourselves want. Violent end control ( killing Hexxat ) causes a complete loss of memory. Our own slave/disciple.
" Who are you ? And who am i ? Are you my Master ? "
Personally, I think it would be more of a shame to add her as a full-time NPC. She doesn't really have anything to add to the table.
That being said, after getting a talking to by @Icecreamtub. I wouldn't mind an option to save Clara as long as it is done in a decent way. However, keep in mind that there are other NPCs in this game that die, and there is no option to save them. Why is Clara different? I think its because when Overhaul revealed Hexxat, and people saw Clara's portrait. That is when people just started to associate Hexxat with the portrait.
However, she isn't good enough to get a spot on the Bhaalspawn's team. Like I said, she basically adds nothing to the table. She can't even dual-class to make herself more useful. In a good/neutral party, people are going to always take Jan or Imoen over her, because they're useful. Jan being a Mage/Thief multi, and Imoen being a Thief < Mage dual. Heck, Yoshimo is more useful, and he can dual into a fighter, and this is despite the fact you can't even use him through out the whole game. Even Nalia is more useful than Clara, and this is despite her sucky thieving skills. One could even dual Sarevok to a Thief in ToB, so that's one more NPC that outshines Clara. So, in a powergaming perspective, Clara would probably be the last NPC a person would pick if she were made a NPC.
Also, Clara's backstory, its ordinary. It doesn't make her interesting. It doesn't make her epic in anyway. All the other companions offer more interesting stories to tell. Even Cernd has an interesting story, and a lot of people seem to hate him.
Also, there is already a Clara mod in development. With an option to save Clara, and let her join the party, so I say that Overhaul should just move on, and let the person developing the Clara mod do just that, and people who want to keep Clara should give their input into that and make that a better mod.
TL:DR - Give an option to save Clara, but don't make her a NPC.
@Edvin - She is a temporary party member, like Xan and Branwen in the tutorial, that doesn't make her a NPC.
There is already a mod in development that will allow Clara to become a permanent party member.
I don't mind the option to save her as long as it is done in a decent way, but I do mind her becoming an NPC when there are others that do what she does a lot better.
@Yaballa - Alright, what makes the other NPCs more epic than Clara? Sarevok - He's a former child of Bhaal that you can resurrect, and potentially turn him good. Edwin - He's a Red Wizard of Thay looking for power. Viconia - She is a drow from the Underdark. She is exiled from there because she didn't kill a child. Korgan - He is a druegar from the Underdark, he is a mercenary. Hexxat - She is basically a Vampiric version of Lara Croft.(Haven't finished evil run yet.) Jan - He's a gnomish turnip seller, that tells a lot of awesome stories. (I haven't really played with Jan in a long while.) Haer'Dalis - Tiefling bard from Sigil. Left Sigil with his troupe because the leader of the troupe wrote a play that she shouldn't have. Cernd - Famer turned druid. He left his wife to become a druid, returns to Athkatla and finds out that his wife is dead, and that he has a son. Then, when he gets his son back, he takes him to the Druid Grove, until there is a time where his son can choose what path he wants to be on. Anomen - Nobleman wanting to become a Knight. He can either fail his test, and not become a Knight, or pass it, and become a Knight. Valygar - Ranger that was born in a magical family that was basically cursed. His ancestor returns to Athkatla in the planar sphere, and Valygar wants to stop said ancestor. Jaheira - She's a harper, BFF of Gorion, knows Elminster. She survived a revolt and became a servant of nature, and like I said, she is a harper. Aerie - She is an avariel, who came to save some children. She got captured, and turned into a slave. She lost her wings, and met Quayle, and became part of his circus. Neera - Wild Mage from High Forest. She gets exiled from the place because of her wild magic. Rasaad - Sun Soul Monk that worship's Selune. He kills his brother because he turned Dark Moon Monk.(Haven't played through BG2EE, yet.) Dorn - Half-orc Blackguard. He turned to a demon patron for revenge against his former companions. Then, he has the potential to keep his patron, get a new one, or become free. (Haven't finished evil run.) Clara - Farm-girl turned failed actress, turned prostitute, then turned into a thief. Gets dominated by Hexxat, and then is killed by Hexxat.
The only epic thing that Clara has is that she got dominated by Hexxat, and then is killed by Hexxat.
@booinyoureyes - Honestly? I haven't played with Jan in a long time. I can't even remember his backstory all that well.
Also, my boyfriend did just come up with an good way for Clara to live, but not join the party.
So yes, Save Clara before Hexxat noms on her via detect evil, or high wisdom modifier, probably won't work in BGEE, but who knows. Buy Clara a house, and an acting coach, perhaps Haer'dalis would fit this bill. Basically have an on-going quest to keep making Clara's life better. Kind of like that quest in the Innershade mod where you visit the little old lady.
Saving Clara is more important to me than having her as an NPC anyway. Though in terms of "epicness" I enjoy the Keto NPC mod which is basically a normal girl bard who kinda sucks but feels in over her head. It was enjoyable and a good change of pace imho
What if Clara somehow keep ( through their connection ) part of Hexxat memories. Then we would not have to create any new quests because Clara could tell us about the deal that had Hexxat and may suggest that contacts the mediator L and accept an assignment.
An elegant solution that will require only a few new dialogue. ( Romance would be nice, but I guess we cant have everything )
Comments
But Clara as an NPC? Why? She's an average-at-best vanilla thief with a standard commoner's backstory. You could write something for her with that to build off of in a vacuum, but that sort of character has no place joining the party in Baldur's Gate. What right does she have to accompany a demigod on his/her epic quest?
I would INFINITELY prefer another DLC party member. Something new, fresh, and powerful. A neutral Cleric/Thief, for example, would be nice.
Even so, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one wanting to see a full version Clara!
Let's say she was in fact made into a DLC for complete npc.
If it was a 5$ investment and not an automatic update, those not wanting to see any change in it wouldn't have to. It would all remain the same and everyone would be happy.
Just because someone choose to have one npc dlc or another and you don't, doesn't make your non-dlc game any less real or authentic.
I say make a complete npc out of Clara and let's have fun with whatever comes of it!
I clearly said that the "innocent, wide-eyed, know-nothing" archtype is already present in the game in both Nalia and Aerie. Nothing about their alignments/goals, simply the archtype.
And then he goes on with this: "Do I forge my own path/serve a master?" nonsense. Umm... Dorn?
There is NOTHING that can be done with Clara that is new, exciting, fresh. That was Hexxat, and Clara was a means to an end for that exciting freshness.
There is just no reasoning with fanboys.
I've given you my reasons several times. I like her, I prefer it to keep her around. Why? Because that's just how it is.
Great portrait, great voice actor, fun concept.
The fact that you disagree doesn't make my reasons any less valid. It's just a feature request, silly.
You're basically asking me to defend why i support Cambridge United, which is a bottom league club with nothing to really separate it from any other club in the lower leagues - for the neutral onlooker.
And I'd have to say "That's just how it is. I like them, don't really have a scientific or grand reason for it"
Just as it is with Clara. I don't feel that I need any grand specific reasons to justify a feature request.
Nor are you in a position to demand one either.. it's really becomming quite silly the way you're bombing a thread, doubting peoples ability to read, throwing around accusations of fanboy'ism and what not.
And for what? A feature request you happen to disagree with.
People who play with "good" groups and therefore want to rescue Clara would never side with a vampire afterwards. Every "good" charakter, or Keldorn or Anomen, would instantly kill Hexxat afterwards. So Clara gets at least a revenge.
Evil charakters would say "casualties have to be made" and side with Hexxat.
Rescuing Clara ends up to make the Hexxat-Story totally unrealistic - or one can write a completely new one.
A Clara mod would just be a satisfaction of "I want to save everyone and nobody has to die"-feelings. All we know about her is that she came to Athkatla to be an actress. For me, thats just too little for a good mod.
Besides- i found the NPC dull and boring and was glad when she was rid of.
@Edwin_Odesseiron and yeah, while I may not like Jan, I must agree that "boring" isn't an applicable word for him.
This isn't that.
Clara is a mind-raped peasant/prostitute. Hexxat is vampire-lesbian Lara Croft. One is a great party member, the other isn't. Does Clara have a good voice actor and portrait? Absolutely! But there's a reason for that: it sells the twist. I, for one, was completely thrown off when it turned out my Hexxat was only a projection of the real one.
(And what am I missing with the repeated reference to her good voice acting? Sure, the actor sells the bit, but the end result is a character that sounds like a drunk sorority girl you have to re-train to climb stairs. Who listened to that and decided they wanted that for their main party?)
I mean... what side quests do you even write for such a character? We get to heroically hold her hand as she struggles to become a basic grunt-level Shadow Thief? Do we get scintillating dialogue as she expresses amazement at the party's ability to handle basic-level enemies such as hobgoblins? Will she faint from fear the first time she sees a dragon?
I don't want a random commoner in my party. That works in other games and other stories, but Baldur's Gate isn't that story. Baldur's Gate is the story of a demigod and his or her exceedingly powerful companions, not a rag-tag group of street youths defying the odds to achieve greatness.
Bottom line: There's a reason some people are vehemently against such an NPC. Beamdog actually listens to us, and these feature requests are read. I don't want them to make their first DLC npc Clara. I want something else. In such a rich world as Baldur's Gate, why are you guys so intent on a vanilla human thief with bad stats and no special abilities? Jeez.
I'd really appreciate an npc who is not fundamentally biased for some reason or another. An npc who actually observes the world and adapts to the challenges.
Currently the only ones that actually do that in some respects are Sarevok, Viconia and Aerie. Though the latter one isn't that great to have around unless Charname is Dr Phil.
An npc like Clara could really be awesome. To develop her skills and mindset as the game unfolds. To come from nothing and actually tell a story of growth, not alien in comparison to Charname.
In fact, such an npc could even be open to change down to the very core. Become truly evil if pushed, or perhaps a force of righteousness if shown the way.. or stay neutral. Kind of how Imoen -should- have been. A reflection of Charnames choices, personified in a person connected to him/her.
I believe Clara represents this opportunity and it'd be a shame if the devs don't act on it.
Violent end control ( killing Hexxat ) causes a complete loss of memory. Our own slave/disciple.
" Who are you ? And who am i ? Are you my Master ? "
( Maybe I've made some improvements... )
That being said, after getting a talking to by @Icecreamtub. I wouldn't mind an option to save Clara as long as it is done in a decent way. However, keep in mind that there are other NPCs in this game that die, and there is no option to save them. Why is Clara different? I think its because when Overhaul revealed Hexxat, and people saw Clara's portrait. That is when people just started to associate Hexxat with the portrait.
However, she isn't good enough to get a spot on the Bhaalspawn's team. Like I said, she basically adds nothing to the table. She can't even dual-class to make herself more useful. In a good/neutral party, people are going to always take Jan or Imoen over her, because they're useful. Jan being a Mage/Thief multi, and Imoen being a Thief < Mage dual. Heck, Yoshimo is more useful, and he can dual into a fighter, and this is despite the fact you can't even use him through out the whole game. Even Nalia is more useful than Clara, and this is despite her sucky thieving skills. One could even dual Sarevok to a Thief in ToB, so that's one more NPC that outshines Clara. So, in a powergaming perspective, Clara would probably be the last NPC a person would pick if she were made a NPC.
Also, Clara's backstory, its ordinary. It doesn't make her interesting. It doesn't make her epic in anyway. All the other companions offer more interesting stories to tell. Even Cernd has an interesting story, and a lot of people seem to hate him.
Also, there is already a Clara mod in development. With an option to save Clara, and let her join the party, so I say that Overhaul should just move on, and let the person developing the Clara mod do just that, and people who want to keep Clara should give their input into that and make that a better mod.
TL:DR - Give an option to save Clara, but don't make her a NPC.
But Clara already is NPC
We just want option save her and keep in party.
If you dont like her, let her die a keep Hexxat.
There is already a mod in development that will allow Clara to become a permanent party member.
I don't mind the option to save her as long as it is done in a decent way, but I do mind her becoming an NPC when there are others that do what she does a lot better.
@Yaballa - Alright, what makes the other NPCs more epic than Clara?
Sarevok - He's a former child of Bhaal that you can resurrect, and potentially turn him good.
Edwin - He's a Red Wizard of Thay looking for power.
Viconia - She is a drow from the Underdark. She is exiled from there because she didn't kill a child.
Korgan - He is a druegar from the Underdark, he is a mercenary.
Hexxat - She is basically a Vampiric version of Lara Croft.(Haven't finished evil run yet.)
Jan - He's a gnomish turnip seller, that tells a lot of awesome stories. (I haven't really played with Jan in a long while.)
Haer'Dalis - Tiefling bard from Sigil. Left Sigil with his troupe because the leader of the troupe wrote a play that she shouldn't have.
Cernd - Famer turned druid. He left his wife to become a druid, returns to Athkatla and finds out that his wife is dead, and that he has a son. Then, when he gets his son back, he takes him to the Druid Grove, until there is a time where his son can choose what path he wants to be on.
Anomen - Nobleman wanting to become a Knight. He can either fail his test, and not become a Knight, or pass it, and become a Knight.
Valygar - Ranger that was born in a magical family that was basically cursed. His ancestor returns to Athkatla in the planar sphere, and Valygar wants to stop said ancestor.
Jaheira - She's a harper, BFF of Gorion, knows Elminster. She survived a revolt and became a servant of nature, and like I said, she is a harper.
Aerie - She is an avariel, who came to save some children. She got captured, and turned into a slave. She lost her wings, and met Quayle, and became part of his circus.
Neera - Wild Mage from High Forest. She gets exiled from the place because of her wild magic.
Rasaad - Sun Soul Monk that worship's Selune. He kills his brother because he turned Dark Moon Monk.(Haven't played through BG2EE, yet.)
Dorn - Half-orc Blackguard. He turned to a demon patron for revenge against his former companions. Then, he has the potential to keep his patron, get a new one, or become free. (Haven't finished evil run.)
Clara - Farm-girl turned failed actress, turned prostitute, then turned into a thief. Gets dominated by Hexxat, and then is killed by Hexxat.
The only epic thing that Clara has is that she got dominated by Hexxat, and then is killed by Hexxat.
Or maybe.... she IS a hamster.... exclusive romance for Boo
Also, my boyfriend did just come up with an good way for Clara to live, but not join the party.
So yes, Save Clara before Hexxat noms on her via detect evil, or high wisdom modifier, probably won't work in BGEE, but who knows. Buy Clara a house, and an acting coach, perhaps Haer'dalis would fit this bill. Basically have an on-going quest to keep making Clara's life better. Kind of like that quest in the Innershade mod where you visit the little old lady.
Saving Clara is more important to me than having her as an NPC anyway. Though in terms of "epicness" I enjoy the Keto NPC mod which is basically a normal girl bard who kinda sucks but feels in over her head. It was enjoyable and a good change of pace imho
Then we would not have to create any new quests because Clara could tell us about the deal that had Hexxat and may suggest that contacts the mediator L and accept an assignment.
An elegant solution that will require only a few new dialogue.
( Romance would be nice, but I guess we cant have everything )