@Kamigoroshi - In my own mind, they are mystical and tend to travel around a bit. What I mean by that is they magically appear and disappear periodically and therefore don't qualify as repository type books. Basically, they wouldn't remain long in Candlekeep, so why take them as entrance fees.
But that is only the way I see it, so... But excellent question.
One thing I could never comprehend from a roleplaying perspective was that none of those ancient, heavily enchanted, stat raising tomes count as books of great value for re-entering Candlekeep. I mean, come on... are they really so commonly found along the Sword Coast that the Oghmanytes of that place consider such tomes to be worthless additions for their library?
And who is Generic Guardsman B to determine what's a worthy addition to the library?
Oh wow. I had no idea. Thanks for the wonderful insight ◔_◔
I don't think anyone stated that it was not possible in a world of magic and dragons where anything is possible. I just said I found it stupid, and that there are better and more interesting alternatives.
So, I just read a book and now I'm strong. lolwtf?
It is an incorrect interpretation. The tomes are defined in D&D, first and foremost, as powerful magic items (e. g., consult http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Manual_of_Gainful_Exercise). It's not the fact of reading the book and learning some know-how that makes you permanently stronger, but rather a strong alteration magic.
PS: If you are criticizing the tomes from a purely logical point of view, the same line of thought can undermine any magical effect in the game. For example: "So I've equipped that girdle, and now I'm stronger -- yeah, right! Giant Strength, Schmiant Strength, gimme a break!"
@Tisamon I wasn't criticizing it from a logical point of view. I just found it a lame part of the game that could have had more interesting alternatives. It kinda takes away from heroic ability scores if any old peasant could use some manual that is just lying in some random crate.
I'd prefer better roleplaying alternatives. Just because they exist in pen and paper doesn't make them a great idea.
One thing I could never comprehend from a roleplaying perspective was that none of those ancient, heavily enchanted, stat raising tomes count as books of great value for re-entering Candlekeep. I mean, come on... are they really so commonly found along the Sword Coast that the Oghmanytes of that place consider such tomes to be worthless additions for their library?
I wonder if people would use that option were it open? How would the plot progress past this point? Maybe the next assassin you'd encounter (Tarnesh, Karlat, etc) would show up in Candlekeep and force you out? Ulraunt wouldn't really have a problem expelling you after you killed a guest, even in self-defense. That would make his Chapter 6 conversation/Sarevok's ploy much more convincing/deliciously ironic.
One thing I could never comprehend from a roleplaying perspective was that none of those ancient, heavily enchanted, stat raising tomes count as books of great value for re-entering Candlekeep. I mean, come on... are they really so commonly found along the Sword Coast that the Oghmanytes of that place consider such tomes to be worthless additions for their library?
For the love of Bhaal! Did you not read my post?
Candlekeep would not except library books that are essentially on loan.
Anyway. I am on the quest to find the book of unknowing... Have you seen it...
@Tisamon I wasn't criticizing it from a logical point of view. I just found it a lame part of the game that could have had more interesting alternatives. It kinda takes away from heroic ability scores if any old peasant could use some manual that is just lying in some random crate.
I'd prefer better roleplaying alternatives. Just because they exist in pen and paper doesn't make them a great idea.
Well, an old peasant is highly unlikely to travel to the places where it can be found Think about those locations: a cave full of flesh golems and nasty traps, getting into which requires defeating a whole tribe of bloodthirsty sirines... Or those sinister catacombs under Candlekeep... True enough, the +1 Dex is in the barrel in Black Lily's room, but an old peasant won't get there, either
As a matter of fact, it is an AD&D game, so it uses many D&D-specific conventions and mechanisms. Nothing to do about that. More importantly, why should something be done about it, in the first place? It all boils down to the personal taste, ultimately: I, for instance, tend to get annoyed by a trainer/teacher system many CRPGs use, but see nothing wrong about manuals & tomes.
Actually, theses books are really powerful artifacts and in NO-WAY the exercices they consists of have any effects on your character. The only way to boost your character stats in 2e was with the Wish spell, now guess of what kind of magic is infused a tome stat ? That's right, a Wish spell.
A tome stat is a book infused with a Wish spell to increase your stat to be used later, or to be sold. And i'm not guessing that, this is canon.
Theses tomes are worth so much ! That's why Ramazith doesn't use his tome, because he probably wants to sell it.
We, as players, want to use the book to increase our stats because we can reload the game, we know we're in a game, we don't have to think about the future, about a house, a family or anything. But a human who does live in the Forgotten Realms like Ramazith would actually prefer to get something like 200 000 golds than having +1 Int. He is settled and old, he dosen't need the +1 int.
I agree that technicaly, theses books are well worth the entrance in Candlekeep but of course it could break the game in a way.
Anyway. I am on the quest to find the book of unknowing... Have you seen it...
Actually, I happen to have a copy of that book within one of my shelves. The downside is its invisible and written in braille. Heard its author was a blind, invisible stalker who's job happen to be a ghostwriter. Still interested?
Anyway. I am on the quest to find the book of unknowing... Have you seen it...
Actually, I happen to have a copy of that book within one of my shelves. The downside is its invisible and written in braille. Heard its author was a blind, invisible stalker who's job happen to be a ghostwriter. Still interested?
Anyway. I am on the quest to find the book of unknowing... Have you seen it...
Actually, I happen to have a copy of that book within one of my shelves. The downside is its invisible and written in braille. Heard its author was a blind, invisible stalker who's job happen to be a ghostwriter. Still interested?
Have you by chance, a signed copy from Liera, the goddess of all illusions, that maybe dead or maybe alive, as she most possibly faked her own death... or perhaps is dead...
Are you certain you have a copy at all?
If your not 100% sure... I'll take it.
If you are 100% positive it is the real deal... It must be a fake, and I will not touch it.
Except one is based off of experience and learning as you go along and the other is by a magic book
It's perfectly possible for a Thief to go from level 1 to level 35 without ever once performing a 'Thief' skill. Worse still, it is possible for a wizard to become an extremely powerful wizard though never casting a spell.
The level up system is not based on becoming more experienced at your profession, it is based on completing quests and killing monsters. I LOVE D&D as a system, but it is deeply flawed on that level. In fact (watches for lightning to strike me dead) I actually like the system that 'The elder Scrolls' uses in principal better than the D&D system. Admittedly even that system has major flaws (looks at Oblivion's 'The world levels up with you' as an example) but at least casting spells made you not only become a better caster, but it also enhanced your related stats.
Best not to look to deeply under the hood of the D&D system for those types of flaws.
But basically if you don't like the tomes, can't you just not use them?
One thing I could never comprehend from a roleplaying perspective was that none of those ancient, heavily enchanted, stat raising tomes count as books of great value for re-entering Candlekeep. I mean, come on... are they really so commonly found along the Sword Coast that the Oghmanytes of that place consider such tomes to be worthless additions for their library?
I'd imagine that the sages get a bit pissed off with books that actively run away once you've read them.
Reader: Brother, may I borrow that Manual of Bodily Health once you are finished with it? I have been feeling quite under the weather for the past few days.
I always thought there would be better ways to roleplay a stat increase. Most would take more than a day of training, maybe with another NPC, or an event, or spending time in a specific location.
Actually that's how it was in PnP all the time. And btw, you could only benefit from each tome once per character (if you ever found one...)
To quote from the good old 2nd edition Dungeon Masters Guide:
Manual of Bodily Health: The metal-bound manual of bodily health appears to be an arcane, rare, but nonmagical book. If a detect magic spell is cast upon it, the manual will radiate an aura of magic. Any character who reads the work (24 hours of time over 3-5 days) will know how to increase his Constitution by one point—this involves a special dietary regimen and breathing exercises over a one- month period. The book disappears immediately upon completion of its contents. The point of Constitution is gained only after the prescribed regimen is followed. In three months the knowledge of the secrets to bodily health will be forgotten. The knowledge cannot be articulated or recorded by the reader. The manual will not be useful to any character a second time, nor will more than one character be able to benefit from a single copy.
or:
Tome of Clear Thought: A work of this nature is indistinguishable from any normal book. Any single character who reads a tome of clear thought will be able to practice mental exercises that will increase his Intelligence by one point. Reading a work of this nature takes 48 hours time over six days, and immediately thereafter the book disappears. The reader must begin a program of concentration and mental discipline within one week of reading the tome. After a month of such exercise, Intelligence goes up. The knowledge gained from reading the work can never be recorded or articulated. Any further perusal of a tome of clear thought will be of no benefit to the character.
Per P&P, it isn't possible to read 3 tomes of wisdom and gain +3 to wisdom. After reading the first book, the second and third would have no effect on the same character.
I find the tomes to be just fine as they are. I look at them as very rare books written by long forgotten masters of various skills. The tome of Gainful Exercise (+1 Str) could for example have been written by a monk from the Desert of Anouroch, who mastered powerful punches and left his knowledge of this in a written form for a lucky person to find it and read about it. Sure, ingame you get +1 stat instantly, but it doesn't prevent you from roleplaying that it has taken you days to read it through and practice what's written within
why is the book expendable then? and how can you "roleplay in" the elapse of time (several or many days) when none has happened in the game, it's a tiny wee bit delusional.
"mentor paths" idea as expounded by kidcarnival is very well thought out. somebody put it in the npc project mod
Well, lots of things don't actually happen in the game and you roleplay them. By that definition, all of that is a bit delusional. Especially if you play evil, there is a damn lot you have to make up - from dialogue options that are not "hurr hurr i'm 14 and sooooo eviiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiil FEAR ME derp!!!1" to motivations and quest outcomes. I actually do roleplay a "passing of time" after getting the first wisdom tome from Durlag's. I usually get it as early as I can, so I can use it in the right moment (to dual Xzar, who is usually not the level I want to dual at when getting the tome). So I carry the tome around for a while and roleplay that Xzar is uncertain what he would gain from the tome and if Kagain doesn't have a good point about selling it to buy better gear for everyone. At some point - often after the Bassilus encounter - Xzar gets more interested in divine magic, uses the tome and duals to cleric to explore death from that angle. He's been pondering about it for a while in game time and studied the book before really using it. In that time, the tome has been sitting in my backpack for several days or weeks. I don't feel very delusional about that and nothing stops you from doing the same with charname, a different NPC and any of the tomes. You don't "consume" the tomes by picking them up, so you can use them whenever it suits your roleplay. Or not at all.
"You don't "consume" the tomes by picking them up..."
ok ok i get it you've been looking at the book's pages for a couple of days not making much out of it, so you decide it's stupid and worthless and chuck it into a campfire (consume it in the game) and immediately the words start coming together it all clicks in your head and you become wiser.
but it's kinda unimaginable that the scenario (one of post-throwaway flukish revelation) would repeat with other tomes
IMO a magic spell bound to a magic book is a lot less stupid than doing some push ups for a single day and then suddenly becoming stronger. Magic I accept as part of the BG universe, becoming superhumanly strong after a single days exercise I do not.
If that were the case, wy doesn't EVERYONE have stats of 25?
I'd think the idea is more that you go from a relatively sheltered and calm life to one where you constantly fight for your life, march long distances carrying heavy gear, encounter a lot of people and lead a party into battle. It makes a certain amount of sense that after a few months of that you'd be a bit stronger, wiser, more durable and more charismatic.
Ehm, What has that got to do with anything in this thread, what so ever? We are talking about tomes that raises stats, remember?
I can accept the tomes as being magical, but then, why would they just be scattered around the area - and only the Sword Coast, apparently? If even a barely literate 3 INT charname can benefit from a tome, I assume everyone could use them and it doesn't make sense that the tomes are stored in various places, most notably the thieves guild - right next to a merchant. Why in the world would Black Lily - a thief - not improve her dexterity OR sell the tome instead of letting a random stranger walk up to the barrel, take and read it and walk out again?.
Wow, you must have a really crappy imagination. You do realize that the game world exists independently outside of the PC's action, don't you? And that there is such a thing separation of story and gameplay? Just because there isn't a reaction to something in-game doesn't mean it doesn't happen. For instance, there is no "poop" action (not any latrines I can think of) in this game Isn't it weird that no-one in the Sword Coast poops? Besides, how do you know that Black Lily ISN'T planning to use or sell that tome of dexterity? Or that maybe she DOES notice how you steal it but figures that she, being a lone fence and not a fighter, decides that she doesn't want to take on six heavily armed and armoured dudes and instead she sends a message to her ditsant friend Jon Irenicus? Maybe she doesn't know about it at all? How do you know it's her barrels? Maybe the barrel was full of something and a completely different person hid the tome in there and was killed before s/he could tell anyone?
To sum it up, there are a thousand different reasons why things are the way they are and you're just nit-picking about something you appearantly don't even understand.
Comments
But that is only the way I see it, so... But excellent question.
I don't think anyone stated that it was not possible in a world of magic and dragons where anything is possible. I just said I found it stupid, and that there are better and more interesting alternatives.
PS: If you are criticizing the tomes from a purely logical point of view, the same line of thought can undermine any magical effect in the game. For example: "So I've equipped that girdle, and now I'm stronger -- yeah, right! Giant Strength, Schmiant Strength, gimme a break!"
I'd prefer better roleplaying alternatives. Just because they exist in pen and paper doesn't make them a great idea.
Candlekeep would not except library books that are essentially on loan.
Anyway. I am on the quest to find the book of unknowing... Have you seen it...
As a matter of fact, it is an AD&D game, so it uses many D&D-specific conventions and mechanisms. Nothing to do about that. More importantly, why should something be done about it, in the first place? It all boils down to the personal taste, ultimately: I, for instance, tend to get annoyed by a trainer/teacher system many CRPGs use, but see nothing wrong about manuals & tomes.
A tome stat is a book infused with a Wish spell to increase your stat to be used later, or to be sold. And i'm not guessing that, this is canon.
Theses tomes are worth so much ! That's why Ramazith doesn't use his tome, because he probably wants to sell it.
We, as players, want to use the book to increase our stats because we can reload the game, we know we're in a game, we don't have to think about the future, about a house, a family or anything. But a human who does live in the Forgotten Realms like Ramazith would actually prefer to get something like 200 000 golds than having +1 Int. He is settled and old, he dosen't need the +1 int.
I agree that technicaly, theses books are well worth the entrance in Candlekeep but of course it could break the game in a way.
Sorry for my poor english, have a nice day !
Are you certain you have a copy at all?
If your not 100% sure... I'll take it.
If you are 100% positive it is the real deal... It must be a fake, and I will not touch it.
1) You never know if you have spelt her name correctly.
2) You become unsure about everyone and everything.
3) Mist no longer means a feature of the weather.
And...
4) Thread derailment issues...
The level up system is not based on becoming more experienced at your profession, it is based on completing quests and killing monsters. I LOVE D&D as a system, but it is deeply flawed on that level. In fact (watches for lightning to strike me dead) I actually like the system that 'The elder Scrolls' uses in principal better than the D&D system. Admittedly even that system has major flaws (looks at Oblivion's 'The world levels up with you' as an example) but at least casting spells made you not only become a better caster, but it also enhanced your related stats.
Best not to look to deeply under the hood of the D&D system for those types of flaws.
But basically if you don't like the tomes, can't you just not use them?
Reader: Brother, may I borrow that Manual of Bodily Health once you are finished with it? I have been feeling quite under the weather for the past few days.
Sage: Yeaaaah... About that...
I'm not asking to steal your tomes, I just want to see theoretical alternatives or satisfying ways to roleplay stat increases.
To quote from the good old 2nd edition Dungeon Masters Guide:
Manual of Bodily Health: The metal-bound manual of bodily health appears to be an arcane, rare, but nonmagical book. If a detect magic spell is cast upon it, the manual will radiate an aura of magic. Any character who reads the work (24 hours of time over 3-5 days) will know how to increase his Constitution by one point—this involves a special dietary regimen and breathing exercises over a one- month period. The book disappears immediately upon completion of its contents.
The point of Constitution is gained only after the prescribed regimen is followed. In three months the knowledge of the secrets to bodily health will be forgotten. The knowledge cannot be articulated or recorded by the reader. The manual will not be useful to any character a second time, nor will more than one character be able to benefit from a single copy.
or:
Tome of Clear Thought: A work of this nature is indistinguishable from any normal book. Any single character who reads a tome of clear thought will be able to practice mental exercises that will increase his Intelligence by one point. Reading a work of this nature takes 48 hours time over six days, and immediately thereafter the book disappears.
The reader must begin a program of concentration and mental discipline within one week of reading the tome. After a month of such exercise, Intelligence goes up. The knowledge gained from reading the work can never be recorded or articulated. Any further perusal of a tome of clear thought will be of no benefit to the character.
So no more of this silly hogging of all the Tomes of Understanding.
I think that when you finish Leira's Book of Derpiness quest for Shaella you should be rewarded with -1 wisdom (its like a Tome of Misunderstanding)
"mentor paths" idea as expounded by kidcarnival is very well thought out. somebody put it in the npc project mod
I actually do roleplay a "passing of time" after getting the first wisdom tome from Durlag's. I usually get it as early as I can, so I can use it in the right moment (to dual Xzar, who is usually not the level I want to dual at when getting the tome). So I carry the tome around for a while and roleplay that Xzar is uncertain what he would gain from the tome and if Kagain doesn't have a good point about selling it to buy better gear for everyone. At some point - often after the Bassilus encounter - Xzar gets more interested in divine magic, uses the tome and duals to cleric to explore death from that angle. He's been pondering about it for a while in game time and studied the book before really using it. In that time, the tome has been sitting in my backpack for several days or weeks. I don't feel very delusional about that and nothing stops you from doing the same with charname, a different NPC and any of the tomes. You don't "consume" the tomes by picking them up, so you can use them whenever it suits your roleplay. Or not at all.
ok ok i get it you've been looking at the book's pages for a couple of days not making much out of it, so you decide it's stupid and worthless and chuck it into a campfire (consume it in the game) and immediately the words start coming together it all clicks in your head and you become wiser.
but it's kinda unimaginable that the scenario (one of post-throwaway flukish revelation) would repeat with other tomes
Besides, how do you know that Black Lily ISN'T planning to use or sell that tome of dexterity? Or that maybe she DOES notice how you steal it but figures that she, being a lone fence and not a fighter, decides that she doesn't want to take on six heavily armed and armoured dudes and instead she sends a message to her ditsant friend Jon Irenicus?
Maybe she doesn't know about it at all? How do you know it's her barrels? Maybe the barrel was full of something and a completely different person hid the tome in there and was killed before s/he could tell anyone?
To sum it up, there are a thousand different reasons why things are the way they are and you're just nit-picking about something you appearantly don't even understand.