Anyone else not a fan of +1 stat tomes? Come give some cool roleplaying alternatives!
booinyoureyes
Member Posts: 6,164
So, I just read a book and now I'm strong.
lolwtf?
I always thought there would be better ways to roleplay a stat increase. Most would take more than a day of training, maybe with another NPC, or an event, or spending time in a specific location. Something like this:
Strength: Charname meets random NPC in the game (maybe someone like Bub Snikt or Scar). They talk and then he decided to show young charname how to train to be the ultimate warrior. Charname now has a better exercise regiment and has increased his muscle mass and athleticism. Represented by +1 STR.
Dexterity: Charname meets the Shadow Thieves. Renal Bloodscalp takes a liking to him and decides to show him some tricks of the trade. He has his assistants give him some pointers on how to hone his reflexes. He has to survive the "pit of death and bridges" in the Northeast corner of the Shadow Thieves compound. After this intense training regime, charname now has better reflexes and eye-hand coordination. Represented by +1 DEX.
Constitution: Charname visits the temple of Rasaad's monks. He speneds a day with them, learning to meditate and cleanse his body. The monks show the Bhaalspawn how to tap into his inner strength (or some other kung-fu chi-type shit) and become one with the force or whatever. He leaves the retreat with a greater fortitude than when he entered it. Represented by +1 CON.
Intelligence: Charname visits Thalantyr or Firebead in Beregost. The wise old mages ask him to interpret certain texts. Charname spends a couple hours a week studying the work, finding patterns, taking tests and solving various problems. Upon completion, the old wizard tells him that he has now honed his mind, and his perception is now sharper than when he began. Represented by +1 INT.
Wisdom: Charname visits the Temple of Helm/Lathander/Cyric/Talos/Torm/whatever or a Druid Grove. Watcher Oisig/some druid or priest tests charname judgement having him make difficult decisions that require insight and understanding. After failing repeatedly, the Bhaalspawn eventually gets the hang of it. He learns more about himself and how to interpret situations with a clear mind. Represented by +1 WIS.
Charisma: Rather than reading How to Make Friends and Influence people in one six second round, the Bhaalspawn meets either a bard/actor/celebrity (or some charming adventurer like Coran) or a leader of men (like a paladin/general... someone like Duke Eltan). By spending time with his new friend and observing his interactions (while asking for some good advice) Charname develops a sense of how to be a good leader, influence people, win admirers and have his companions respect him. Represented by +1 CHA.
Just an idea I've had recently, and a better roleplaying alternative to the tomes in my opinion. I would absolutely love to hear what other people say, so please share your ideas!
lolwtf?
I always thought there would be better ways to roleplay a stat increase. Most would take more than a day of training, maybe with another NPC, or an event, or spending time in a specific location. Something like this:
Strength: Charname meets random NPC in the game (maybe someone like Bub Snikt or Scar). They talk and then he decided to show young charname how to train to be the ultimate warrior. Charname now has a better exercise regiment and has increased his muscle mass and athleticism. Represented by +1 STR.
Dexterity: Charname meets the Shadow Thieves. Renal Bloodscalp takes a liking to him and decides to show him some tricks of the trade. He has his assistants give him some pointers on how to hone his reflexes. He has to survive the "pit of death and bridges" in the Northeast corner of the Shadow Thieves compound. After this intense training regime, charname now has better reflexes and eye-hand coordination. Represented by +1 DEX.
Constitution: Charname visits the temple of Rasaad's monks. He speneds a day with them, learning to meditate and cleanse his body. The monks show the Bhaalspawn how to tap into his inner strength (or some other kung-fu chi-type shit) and become one with the force or whatever. He leaves the retreat with a greater fortitude than when he entered it. Represented by +1 CON.
Intelligence: Charname visits Thalantyr or Firebead in Beregost. The wise old mages ask him to interpret certain texts. Charname spends a couple hours a week studying the work, finding patterns, taking tests and solving various problems. Upon completion, the old wizard tells him that he has now honed his mind, and his perception is now sharper than when he began. Represented by +1 INT.
Wisdom: Charname visits the Temple of Helm/Lathander/Cyric/Talos/Torm/whatever or a Druid Grove. Watcher Oisig/some druid or priest tests charname judgement having him make difficult decisions that require insight and understanding. After failing repeatedly, the Bhaalspawn eventually gets the hang of it. He learns more about himself and how to interpret situations with a clear mind. Represented by +1 WIS.
Charisma: Rather than reading How to Make Friends and Influence people in one six second round, the Bhaalspawn meets either a bard/actor/celebrity (or some charming adventurer like Coran) or a leader of men (like a paladin/general... someone like Duke Eltan). By spending time with his new friend and observing his interactions (while asking for some good advice) Charname develops a sense of how to be a good leader, influence people, win admirers and have his companions respect him. Represented by +1 CHA.
Just an idea I've had recently, and a better roleplaying alternative to the tomes in my opinion. I would absolutely love to hear what other people say, so please share your ideas!
Post edited by booinyoureyes on
7
Comments
Physical attributes might be the hardest to justify if not the latter reason. I just think of it as "better body (or any part thereof) positioning" to maximize muscular use or momentum or whatever, that among others.
The PnP implementation of these tomes in 2e was a lot more realistic. You had to actually read them (taking 24 hours over a 3 day period or 48 hours over a 6 day period depending on the book) and the effects don't kick in for a full month, as your character is actually implementing new exercises, diets, mental discipline, etc. It's a magical item (disappears on use and such) but the effects are explicitly non-magical.
You could also use Wish to boost stats, which isn't incorporated into BG2. This wasn't particularly useful though because Wish ages your character by 5 years every time you use it in AD&D 2e. I'm also pretty sure that there was a limit to how much you could advance a stat by doing so (I think it took something like 10 wishes to increase a stat beyond 18 but I'm not sure). You couldn't even get around it by playing an Elf, because you couldn't pass level 15 as a Mage (so never got level 8/9 spells).
Leave my tomes alone you big meanie!
@silverstar I'm kinda weird and actually prefer films over books on a couple of occasions. I prefer the Lord of the Rings movies tbh, and I liked the Watchmen movie more than the comic
Having the tomes eat a few days of gametime I wouldn't mind all that much, though I still think magical tomes magically granting stats in a world full of magic is sensible enough.
In BG there are tomes and in BG2:ToB there is a magical machine in Watcher's keep to increase stats. In addition, some happenings in the end of SoA part of the game can also increase some stat points. Finally, there is Deck of Many Things, if you are lucky enough to draw a certain card it will give you +1 stat boost to your class prime ability.
Otherwise, it would only make sense to set up a gym in Baldur's Gate, where I could spend weeks to increase my strength. And perhaps a beauty saloon to improve my charisma a bit.
In the spirit of your prior challenge to me:
Reading is pun-damental.
Before I see myself out yet again, I must say, this idea does intrigue me.
I have nothing against gaining stats, but it's so random that someone would find a book in a barrel and instantly improve dexterity, for example. Especially in a freaking THIEVES GUILD, why would they just leave that book in the barrel and let you take it? Why don't they want to improve their stats?
So, mentor paths. Since tomes exist in BG1 only, this concept only needs to exist there, too. There are various NPCs who, with the odd exceptions (i.e. Imoen, presumably Garrick, definitely Skie) are more experienced than charname and could therefore function as mentors for their class.
They would get a friendship/romance-like path, with dialogue focussed on their (and charname's) class, for example, a mage mentor would talk to an arcane caster about magic, and the resolution would not be "HAVE SECKS" like the romance mods, but a +1 increase of the prime stat for both charname and the NPC.
Not all NPCs would have such a path, obviously. It wouldn't make sense for some (i.e. Edwin would be unlikely to teach a pesky lower mage; Minsc wouldn't make the best teacher for a ranger because he's still on his rite of passage himself and so on). There could only be one active path, and the NPC would only offer to become a teacher/mentor once, same as romances. A dual charname could only improve the active class. Multiclass would be offered the path by all potential mentors and has to make a choice (like Strongholds work).
Candidates I see:
Safana for thieves - being neutral, she could serve this function for all alignments, and she is likely the most experienced adventurer of the pure thieves.
Branwen for clerics (and possibly monks and paladins) - again, she's neutral, pure class and serves more than one deity, so she'd likely be able to teach followers of any faith
Xan for mages - neutral and probably the most teacher-y NPC in the game
Kagain for fighters - he at least acts pretty neutral, so he's relatively easy to justify in a neutral/good party, and he's the most experienced of the fighters. He runs a business, and may see charname as a potential employee
Rangers and druids are a bit difficult, but I guess Jaheira or Kivan could work. Ajantis clearly isn't a teacher; he's still a squire on his first mission, so I'd put paladins under "divine" guidance with Branwen, and with Eldoth being evil and hard to fit in neutral/good parties (especially because he's also paired with yet another rogue class), bards could pick Safana (she's charismatic enough) or Xan (enchantment fits bards enough too).
The mentor path would progress chapter by chapter, so you couldn't "speed up" the process, increase one stat, then dual and take the next mentor. There would be small rewards on the way to the stat increase, i.e. a mage starts with a first reward "a random spell from the levels currently castable gets added to spellbook" - then a second reward in mid-game "one spell slot for level 3 added" - and finally the major reward of +1 intelligence. Other classes would gain similar benefits related to their class, i.e. fighter gets THAC0 improvement, AC improvement, +1 strength; thief gets 15 extra skill points (possibly related to kit, i.e. assassin gets stealth, bounty hunter gets traps), 25 free skill points, +1 dex; clerics similar to mages (more spell slots; paladins or monks would get extra use of Lay Hands or a kit ability instead).
That would be vastly more interesting than finding tomes, and make much more sense from a roleplay perspective. It's semi-inconvenient to take a NPC with the same class as charname, hence the rather broad categories to allow parties to be somewhat flexible. Safana, Branwen and Xan would also get something to make them more appealing; they are often overlooked with the more popular same-class NPCs and could use the boost.
If that were the case, wy doesn't EVERYONE have stats of 25?
The wisdom tomes sort of make sense - getting one from a temple, as payment for someone who probably intends to use it; and another on an altar in a dwarven fortress, possibly an offering for a deity worshipped there long ago and another hidden in ancient catacombs under a library. (Along with a strength tome, which also makes sense; seekers of wisdom and knowledge would probably not care that much about physical strength and store the tome there for someone who may benefit from it.)
The charisma tome is a weird case. Maybe it was put there by xvarts or gnolls who didn't know what it was. Maybe wild animals dragged it there. But it must still have travelled to the wilderness with someone who was then attacked or killed for it to fall into the hands/paws of animals or monsters. Either way, creatures that don't care about books of all things, and would not conveniently preserve it in a cave. If it was a shiny thing like a weapon, ravens or magpies may be attracted to it and carry it away (well, a small/light shiny thing anyway), but a book isn't interesting for animals. Leaves monsters who just stored it because they store everything they loot from travellers. Why did someone travel through the wilderness with a charisma tome and did not use it?
Con tome, makes sense that it is with a pile of other treasures, except why did the person who hid the treasure there not use it? Con is universally useful. A mage might say "I need no muscles" and dismiss the chance to gain strength. A barbarian may think he's smart enough already and leave an int tome to someone else. But who would say "hmm, I'm healthy enough as it is"? The only kind of person to not use a con tome would be someone who would rather give it to a person who needs it more (i.e. a healthy priest finds such a tome and decides to give it to someone with an illness). And that kind of person doesn't hide it in a cave.
There has always been only two ways to improve your stats : Tomes, and Wish spell.
That said, I'd always welcome different ways to gain stat points. Finding ways in-game to acquire bonuses outside the normal level system has always been great fun for me, which is why I really enjoyed games like Arcanum and Fallout as well.
Sadly, while BG has much better gameplay, it's really quite rare that your stats play a major role outside of combat.
But as I'm undead, even with me striving for the very best for my pupils, would probably involve level drain and stat loss... plus the Clerics would try and make me explode or take control of my brain...
Me as a mentor would not work.
...
I thought those magic tomes were part of the planet wide Toril library service. Once read they return to the bookshelf magically. Especially useful to weedy wizards who cannot carry tomes and those who don't have the time or inclination to return them...
Unfortunately they closed the library and the wood in the bookshelf has been recycled.
It now resides as parts of shipping crates and barrels scattered around the city of Baldur's Gate... Hence the reason for the randomised places you find these tomes...
I thought everyone knew this...
Or has everyone read the book of unknowing, unknowingly?
In the Wuxia fantasy genre, manuals of martial arts techniques are pretty central to many stories, and a relative novice can become an amazing master with a little talent, some dedication and some instruction. One of the most powerful characters in Jin Yong's (Guo Jing) stories got so powerful mostly by the blind luck of being instructed by several of the most powerful warriors in the land, and accidentally learning from a manual of legendary status.
In fact, even when Hollywood did the Kung Fu panda thing, the secret/forbidden manual was central to the plot too... although in that case, the manual was metaphoric.
There is a degree of philosophy/morality in Jin Yong's stories too. Typically evil characters go to great lengths, often killing and maiming, in order to obtain powerful secret manuals, whilst pure hearted heroes just stumble upon these secrets and receive instruction from great masters without necessarily seeking for it.
But at the end of the day, even if the words in the books mean nothing, the magical nature of the enchantments placed on the tomes themselves could seem to imbue the reader with some mystical enhancements. This, I think, is the most reasonable and likely explanation and not in any way beyond the realm of possibility in the world of Faerun.
I might agree that having nine of them just lying around is a bit of a stretch, but considering it is a single player game, and the Charname is supposed to be something more than mortal, I can forgive such extravagance. I would suspect that they were included for those players not as familiar with the rules who might have 'Accidentally' shorted themselves in some areas. Or maybe they were included to allow some of the dual classing that can take place with some of the NPCs given proper planning. Just a thought.