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Dragon Age: Inquisition

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  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    scriver said:



    I was referring to "On-topic, I find EA's marketing-speak is pretty easy to ignore when the gameplay footage speaks for itself and looks pretty wonderful" because of how the actual game turned out compared to what Spore was hyped as. Game-footage and trailers are solely for hyping and yes, they will at the very least try to deceive you even if they don't lie outright. EA is one of the particularly bad publishers when it comes to this.

    In other words, no, what amounts to nothing but parts of their hype campaign does not actually "speak for itself". Only the released game will.

    I'm inclined to disagree. Gameplay footage is gameplay footage. It is indicative of what the game will be like. Should I just assume video of somebody with a controller in their hand running through a section of the game is an outright lie? That's ridiculous.

  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629

    I tried playing the first one for an hour or two and observed the second one for awhile, but really felt the same way that @Necomancer‌ felt about the dialogue.
    I probably didn't play enough to get the full picture, but from what I saw Dragon Age (particularly 2, which I saw more of) felt like Baldur's Gate: The Unimaginative Edition

    The Unimaginative Edition? DA:O? Really? Should've finished the game before forming an opinion. I thought DA:O's story was very rich and interesting. Maybe not the most inspirational or creative, but hey, BG's story isn't either. But DA 2? What the hell was the story even about? A guy working himself up to be some dandy hero in some or the other city. Sorry, but my definition of 'epic' is kinda different. Hawke's story was boring. Outright boring, even. I don't think I'd manage another playthrough through the dirt brown walls of Kirkwall for another 6-7 hours.

    elminsterChildofBhaal599iKrivetko
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited March 2014

    A guy working himself up to be some dandy hero in some or the other city.

    So in other words "character of humble origins rises from obscurity to become a hero"? AKA the story of DA:O, BG, and about 90% of RPGs ever made? To be honest, DAII was actually better than most in this regard, in that for once you weren't out to save the world from the forces of pure evil. I agree that DAII's story isn't the most engaging, but I think that is due more to its execution than its content. As trite as saving the world is, it can at least provide focus - something the plot of DAII was often missing.

    SchneidendAyiekie
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 8,263
    edited April 2014
    I often wonder what Hawke achieved in the end. Wouldn't the mage-templar war have broken out even if Hawke never had gone to Kirkwall anyway?

    And Hawke's life in Kirkwall is just one series of cruel, awful events.

    - He loses his first sibling on the run to Kirkwal
    - Then his second sibling can be poisoned by darkspawns or in case of Carver he joins the templars even though Hawke is a mage
    - Then he loses his mother in the most cruel way there is
    - if romanced with anders, his love betrays him and uses him as a tool
    - oh yeah and if you side with the mages in the end you find out that Orsino knew all along about your mother's killer... great

    WTF?
    Then the encounter with Merryl and her clan can go very very bad.
    In worst case her entire clan gets slaughtered.

    There are so many emotional draining depressive moments in Dragon Age 2.
    It's one huge emotional drain.

    If I would ever want to intentionally feel bad/depressed, I'd start another run on Dragon Age 2.

    Hawke's story was supposed to be non-epic. It was supposed to be a personal story.
    But really he did make no difference at all. That's frustrating.

    image

    Post edited by Shandyr on
    TJ_Hooker
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190



    The Unimaginative Edition? DA:O? Really? Should've finished the game before forming an opinion. I thought DA:O's story was very rich and interesting. Maybe not the most inspirational or creative, but hey, BG's story isn't either. But DA 2? What the hell was the story even about? A guy working himself up to be some dandy hero in some or the other city. Sorry, but my definition of 'epic' is kinda different. Hawke's story was boring. Outright boring, even. I don't think I'd manage another playthrough through the dirt brown walls of Kirkwall for another 6-7 hours.

    See, just being a capable person that cements themselves in a prominent role and seizes opportunities as they came is exactly the sort of thing I like but never get in my RPGs. It was like a fantasy version of Great Gatsby mixed with a little Machiavelli.

    @Shandyr‌
    DA2 was the Empire Strikes Back of Dragon Age. The bad guys, arguably Anders and all mage-hating Templars (and vice verse) everywhere, win. I enjoyed it, but was so disappointed in Anders. I imagine my Hawke whispering that as he fed Ander's kidneys to The Murder Knife(TM). If nothing else, though, my Hawke got to keep his immense wealth, his pirate queen waifu, and struck a blow against both the Templars and this absurd mage rebellion.

    ShandyrAyiekiejackjackTJ_Hooker
  • ScotGaymerScotGaymer Member Posts: 525
    Shandyr said:

    I often wonder what Hawke achieved in the end. Wouldn't the mage-templar war have broken out even if Hawke never had gone to Kirkwall anyway?

    ...

    Hawke's story was supposed to be non-epic. It was supposed to be a personal story.
    But really he did make no difference at all. That's frustrating.



    I agree with this.

    And the thing is they could have fixed it by making one "small" alteration to the end game. Have Hawke's Mage/Templar choice matter by making it so that his choice changes who the last boss is.

    If Hawke picks Mages in the post Chantry-Blowed-I-Slaughter-You-All-Scene Meredith should reveal that she has a "new" weapon which glows with suspicious familiarity, and use said weapon to cut down Orsino before anyone can do anything.
    She should then turn to Hawke taunt him a bit by saying something like she is going to Annul the mages and she dared him to stop her. And then leave.
    Hawke would then rush to the Gallows to organise the mages in Orsinos place (cos thats what he does anyway) - we dont have a stupid ass scene with Orsino flipping out. And we simply have Hawke and the mages trying to fight their way out and it ends in the usual Super!Villian!Meredith boss fight.

    If Hawke picked Templars then it would be Orsino who would reveal he has a new suspiciously glowing weapon, and it would be orsino who would cut down Meredith there before anyone could stop him. He would then give his "I was sick of that tyrant and her Templar dogs!" speech and retreat to the Gallows saying that he wont rest until all the Templars are purged.
    Hawke will help Cullen organise the Templars, and attack the Gallows. Instead of fighting out we fight in, reach Orsino who will turn into Psycho!Harvester!Orsino and we have the end boss battle with him.

    Bam. Meaningful choice that meant Hawke mattered.

    Or at least it would have felt more meaningful than what we got.

    Shandyr
  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    I have to agree with @Shandyr and @fitscotgaymer here. What did Hawke actually achieve in the end? As a Warden, I felt my decisions mattered more and had an influence also outside of one stupid city. As Hawke you just run around and be everyone's lap dog solving issues they could very well solve on their own. It's as if Hawke is asking to be abused by everyone he meets.

    Shandyr
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 679
    edited March 2014
    I didn't have a problem with the dialogue wheel as a concept. I understand the need to restrict the number of options available to cut down on the amount of voice dialogue which needs to be recorded.

    My only issue was that sometimes the text on the dialogue wheel had little resemblence to what was actually said. Very annoying to select what you thought was a friendly, supportive choice only to discover Hawke saying something antagonistic.

    The happy/angry/sarcastic face helped with this to some extent. But I found myself making choices based on the face rather than on what was going to be said.

  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    karnor00 said:

    I didn't have a problem with the dialogue wheel as a concept. I understand the need to restrict the number of options available to cut down on the amount of voice dialogue which needs to be recorded.

    My only issue was that sometimes the text on the dialogue wheel had little resemblence to what was actually said. Very annoying to select what you thought was a friendly, supportive choice only to discover Hawke saying something antagonistic.

    The happy/angry/sarcastic face helped with this to some extent. But I found myself making choices based on the face rather than on what was going to be said.

    The actual question should be whether the dialogue NEEDS to be voiced. It's not like I'd miss it, and several people in this thread said voiced dialogue is immersion breaking, which is fully understandable. When I was playing Hawke, I didn't really feel this was my own character, but rather a puppet for which I was pressing some buttons to make it speak.

    PeccaAwong124Necomancer
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    edited April 2014
    Shandyr said:

    I often wonder what Hawke achieved in the end. Wouldn't the mage-templar war have broken out even if Hawke never had gone to Kirkwall anyway?

    And Hawke's life in Kirkwall is just one series of cruel, awful events.

    - He loses his first sibling on the run to Kirkwal
    - Then his second sibling can be poisoned by darkspawns or in case of Carver he joins the templars even though Hawke is a mage
    - Then he loses his mother in the most cruel way there is
    - if romanced with anders, his love betrays him and uses him as a tool
    - oh yeah and if you side with the mages in the end you find out that Orsino knew all along about your mother's killer... great

    WTF?
    Then the encounter with Merryl and her clan can go very very bad.
    In worst case her entire clan gets slaughtered.

    There are so many emotional draining depressive moments in Dragon Age 2.
    It's one huge emotional drain.

    If I would ever want to intentionally feel bad/depressed, I'd start another run on Dragon Age 2.

    Hawke's story was supposed to be non-epic. It was supposed to be a personal story.
    But really he did make no difference at all. That's frustrating.

    image
    HA!

    I found one without having to further inflate the ego of my pesky apprentice @CrevsDaak‌ , who is also now a wisp... For some reason... Oh well...

    Lord @Shandyr has failed! His resurrection will now surely fail!

    ALL TEN BROCCOFLOWER SHARDS ARE MINE ! ! !

    Time to fulfill the prophecy...

    *Anduin begins to chant while rocking back and forth*

    Four Broccoflower's for the Elven-kings under the sky,
    Three for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
    Two for Mortal Men doomed to die,
    One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
    In the Land of Forums where the Shadows lie.
    One Mummie to rule them all, One Mummie to find them,
    One Mummie to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
    In the Land of Forums where the Shadows lie....

    Mwahaha!

    TONIGHT (or tomorrow or the day after... but definitely by Friday as I am going on holiday...)

    I WILL ASCEND TO GOD HOOD ! ! !

    I W I L L B E G O D O F V E G E T A B L E S ! ! !

    *Lightening lights the sky as Anduin throws the last Broccoflower shard into his pack, that writhes and pulses green with a life of its own, before cackling and scampering northwards towards the compost heap of the gods... Surely epic enough to warrant a new thread...*

    ShandyrCrevsDaakjackjack
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    @Anduin‌ Try not to deliberately derail threads, please.

    elminsterAnduinTJ_Hooker
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    @Dee My apologies. Broccoflowers have been hidden in lots of threads. The quest to find them all has ended. A lot of threads have actually been revived through the quest (as old threads were chosen to hide them in). Done and dusted now. If anyone finds this problematic, I will delete.

    jackjack
  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    Broccoflowers? What the hell?

    elminsterMeanbunny
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 792

    I have to agree with @Shandyr and @fitscotgaymer here. What did Hawke actually achieve in the end?

    She discovered the truth about her family history. She saved the lives of many people. She made friends, enemies, and lovers. She was instrumental to ending a Qunari attack on a major city before more people could be killed. She prevented the murder of many mages by templars. She stopped the predations of many blood mages. She did her best to hold together the feuding factions of the city, and helped minimise the damage when that failed.

    If you think it was more meaningful to stab some dragon god in the face, you're certainly entitled to do so.

    But my Hawke achieved plenty.

    jackjackTJ_Hooker
  • ScotGaymerScotGaymer Member Posts: 525
    @Ayiekie‌

    First off. Fem!Hawke doesn't exist because her VA is that fricking terrible that it universally purges the existance of all Fem!Hawke's from all universes. :-P

    Secondly, and more seriously. I don't disagree that Hawke did things, but actual proper achievements? Thats debatable. There is a difference between doing things and achieving things after all.

    Hawke got caught up in a series of unfortunate events that were beyond his control and reacted to them. That was it, and what little he did actually achieve (debatably) was undone at the end by that choice removing ending.

    But it's all debatable really. A YMMV type thing. And as such hard to really get a consensus on.

    You can't deny however that the ending takes a lot out of the game, and makes Hawke feel almost pointless.

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,248
    I love female Hawke's voice.

  • ScotGaymerScotGaymer Member Posts: 525
    @Ayiekie‌

    I get that, and respect that you could get what you did out of it. And I don't actually disagree with you lol. I felt much the same as you until I hit that ending which reduced Hawke to a bystander IMO; and I found that to be a disservice to Hawke as a character.

    Believe it or not I really enjoyed DA2 especially retroactively after seeing the car crash that was ME3. lol.

    It's just the games distinct lack of polish, how Hawke is continually forced into no win scenarios, the sameyness of the areas, and that fricking ending all conspire to make the game less that what it should have been IMO.


    @jackjack‌

    Really?

    When it comes to Shepard I don't get the whole Fem!Shep vs Man!Shep thing. I think both VAs did a phenomenal job in different ways with the part. But with Hawke... I completely get it.

    Man!Hawke sounds engaged, and enthusiastic, and like the VA gets the character. And Fem!Hawke? Well she just sounds perpetually bored throughout. I suffered through a Fem!Hawke character until the end of Act 1/beginning of Act 2 and she just does not improve.

    Sibling dies? Meh. Bored.
    Carver is a complete hurtful jerk? Meh. Bored.
    Merill recklessly uses blood magic in front of her? Meh. Bored.
    Other Sibling dies horribly, or leaves? Meh. Bored.

    Listening her I can almost hear her asking "is this done yet? can I get my paycheque now?"

    Watch the comparison videos on youtube, the difference in engagement levels between Man!Hawke's VA and Fem!Hawke's VA is REALLY really obvious.

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,248
    Yeah - I can't quite put my finger on it. I started DA2 as a male Hawke and couldn't stand it. I restarted and never looked back.
    I guess it's a matter of taste.

  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,419
    Seems like a combination of Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2. More Origins, less 2 is good. Playable Qunari is very good, I was expecting that since DA2.

    It's not Baldur's Gate or the Infinity Engine, but it goes on the right path again, I'm playing it.

    elminsterjackjack
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 792
    WRT fem-Hawke's voice, perhaps it's that she does the charming/sarcastic lines particularly well? That's just a guess based on that being the predominant attitude of my Hawke. That being said, I had no problems buying into her being angry or emotional when I picked or the situation gave those responses, so it may just be a taste thing.

    Her rendition of "Make sure the world knows I died at Chateau Haine!" absolutely kills the male one, though.

    jackjack
  • SapphireIce101SapphireIce101 Member Posts: 866
    I prefer female Hawke's voice too, and its a shame that Female Hawke isn't the "canon" character.

    This is mostly because Male Hawke's voice shares the same voice with Vaughn, that dude in the City Elf Origin, that basically takes all the elf women and has a 'party' with them. Heck, the same guy voices Malcolm, Hawke's father.

    I really think that was a bad casting choice on Bioware's part. Simply because, Male Hawke and Vaughn sound exactly the same. So, I can't even play a male Hawke in DA2. No matter how hard I try, I just feel really bad and really dirty within five seconds of hearing Male Hawke's voice.

    jackjack
  • ScotGaymerScotGaymer Member Posts: 525
    edited April 2014
    I can't agree with that.

    Male!Hawke's VA is the same guy yes, and it clearly sounds like the same guy, and if that is a problem for you then fine but they DO NOT sound exactly the same.

    Vaughn sounds a lot more snooty, entitled, and leering in the way a minor villian is supposed to. Hawke does not come off any of those things. Sorry.

    As for Fem!Hawke I just can't get round how bored she sounds every time she speaks. Maria Caliban on the Bioware forums explained to me once that it was because Fem!Hawke's VA was going for a much more reserved performance than Man!Hawke's VA did; and that could possibly be why she sounds "bored" throughout.

    Idk. I just don't like it.

    EDIT:
    I wonder who is going to be the VAs for Manquisitor and Femquisitor (depending on race obv) for DA3?

    Ne one know?

  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    @Ayiekie: Apparently you played a whole different game than I did, because my copy of DA 2 was crowded with so-called 'faceless, motivationless and generic Tolkien-esque evil things', such as the hordes of Darkspawn at the start of the game, the countless mercenaries jumping from the top of buildings right when you think you're finally done, the generic spider monsters... Also, your Hawke thinks Merrill is cute? Even if what she does is morally wrong, and she is downright too stupid to comprehend how demons are actually not the cute fluffy cuddly things she thinks they are? Quite a superficial view there. Must be the cutesy puppy anime eyes, I guess.

    elminster
  • SapphireIce101SapphireIce101 Member Posts: 866
    @Kitteh_On_A_Cloud‌ - I think DA2 handled Merrill's characterization like extremely horribly. As I recall she did a total 180 on what characterization she had in DA:O. If my Mahariel saw her now, he would be so pissed off at Merrill for even taking that Eluvian that took him, and Tamlen from their tribe.

  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 792
    edited April 2014

    @Ayiekie: Apparently you played a whole different game than I did, because my copy of DA 2 was crowded with so-called 'faceless, motivationless and generic Tolkien-esque evil things', such as the hordes of Darkspawn at the start of the game, the countless mercenaries jumping from the top of buildings right when you think you're finally done, the generic spider monsters...

    Yes, there are mooks in DA2. But the primary antagonists of the game are people with motivations, not monsters who are evil because they are evil. Oh, and enemies randomly appear during fights in DA:O all the time (go into any cave and watch them pop out during fights), so I've never quite understood what all the complaining in DA2 comes from.


    Also, your Hawke thinks Merrill is cute? Even if what she does is morally wrong, and she is downright too stupid to comprehend how demons are actually not the cute fluffy cuddly things she thinks they are? Quite a superficial view there. Must be the cutesy puppy anime eyes, I guess.

    That's pretty funny, since Merrill doesn't actually think demons are cute fluffy cuddly things, and it takes a very superficial view of her character to say that she does. Must be the cutesy puppy anime eyes, I guess.

    TJ_Hooker
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 792

    I think DA2 handled Merrill's characterization like extremely horribly. As I recall she did a total 180 on what characterization she had in DA:O. If my Mahariel saw her now, he would be so pissed off at Merrill for even taking that Eluvian that took him, and Tamlen from their tribe.

    Yep, that's a legitimate complaint about both Merrill and Isabela - they both really resemble the DAO originals in name only. Isabela at least you can draw some parallels (even if she doesn't look the same or have the same personality), but Bioware might have done better to just make a new Dalish and tweak Merrill's design slightly (I would miss her facial markings, though, which would probably be the first things to change).

    Speaking personally, I didn't feel DAO Merrill had a personality worth speaking of, and therefore didn't care much, but it's a fair cop if you did. Though, you could fridge logic it a fair bit if you traced her development to being more reclusive, shy and stubborn to the events of the Dalish origin. Getting the Irish accent out of nowhere is admittedly a bit trickier to explain. :)

    That being said, Merrill took the Eluvian to fulfill her wish - and the wish of many elves in the setting - to find out the actual truth of elven history, which has been lost. She's well aware that many people don't agree with her, and this is addressed many times through her story. Your Dalish warden disapproving would undoubtedly be another burden she would choose to carry for her dream.

  • ScotGaymerScotGaymer Member Posts: 525
    My problem with Merill isn't that she is doing collassally stupid things in her "quest". My problem is that she was intended to be something different from what she is.

    I had it from Mary Kirby herself on the forums that Merill was intended to be the "naive, girl-next door type" that got caught up in events too big for her, and ends up just sorta flailing around as a result and needs "saved" by someone (probably Hawke). And that is NOT what Bioware gave us...
    The presentation of Merill was someone who was being willfully blind and stupid. She, unlike most mages, knew exactly what the risks of messing about with demons and with the eluvian were and she plowed on and did them anyway.
    Her behaviour was irresponsible, selfish, and I wanted to physically hit her that it took Marethari basically comitting suicide to fix the consequences of Merill's stupid selfish actions before Merill herself actually stops and says "I was doing the wrong thing" even though EVERYONE else she knew and cared about was telling her that for the whole fakking game.

    The whole mess with the Eluvian was less about her wanting to reclaim a part of her heritage, and more about being right in the face of all the naysayers.

    Merill was supposed to be shy, naive, and in over her head. And instead she was willfully blind, stubborn, selfish, and fatally stupid.
    She is actually the only NPC in DA2 that i actively dislike.

    Sorry bout the mini rant lol.

  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 792
    edited April 2014
    The funny thing is, what you say she was supposed to be is what people with a shallow understanding of her character say she is. :)

    I agree with you, but not quite in the way you might think. The biggest flaw in Merrill's character arc is how one-sided it is. There is never any doubt that what Merrill's going to do will end disastrously, or what the "right" thing to say to her is. That sucks both because it goes against the spirit of a game as deliberately morally murky as DA2, and also because it means you spend a lot of her plotline waiting for the boom to fall (and when it does, due to how rushed the final act is, it's a tad anticlimactic). Her arc would have worked better had it been possible to believe Merrill would actually succeed at her plan.

    That being said, I disagree with you on your overall assessment of her character, and you yourself actually explained why:

    "She, unlike most mages, knew exactly what the risks of messing about with demons and with the eluvian were and she plowed on and did them anyway."

    You're right, Merrill does know exactly what the risks are. She has no illusions about how dangerous demons and blood magic are and the consequences of a misstep in her using them to further her goals, and she does so anyway.

    And to hell with anyone who would stop her. Merrill set herself a burden too large for any one person to bear - to singlehandedly save her entire race's history. Because she knows the risks, she deliberately isolates herself from everyone. She has to be dragged unwillingly into asking for help even when she needs it and there's a decent possibility she will get it. She leaves her tribe and lets them think of her with scorn and contempt, and lives among the humans who terrify her and who took her friend away. It's revealed several ways in her storyarc that she almost expects what she's doing to end up martyring her, and that she considers herself beyond redemption (something she explicitly says in a rival-mance) because she's used blood magic, consorted with demons and betrayed her tribe to achieve her goals.

    While you're not wrong in that vindication is a strong desire of hers, I believe you are wholly wrong in assuming her primary motivation for all that was merely to say "I told you so."

    As for what Marethari did, I think you missed the narrative parallel there. In the end, Merrill learned enough and deepened her bond with Hawke enough that she did not face the demon alone. Unlike every other step of the journey, she did not walk into the danger alone but instead feared what might happen and asked for help. Marethari, on the other hand, made precisely the same mistake she'd been accusing Merrill of making all along. She foolishly took everything on herself, freed the demon Merrill intended to consult and was possessed by it, forcing you to kill her.

    Marethari and Merrill are not nearly as different as you think. There's a reason that it's a Pride Demon that Merrill consorts with and Marethari is possessed by. It is the pride of thinking she knew best and that she could handle everything alone that brought Merrill close to disaster. It is the very same pride of thinking she knew best and that she could handle everything alone that did bring Marethari to disaster.

    Marethari died being certain she knew best and had done the right thing all along. Merrill lives because she realised that maybe she didn't. In the end, she wasn't the one that was, as you say, "fatally stupid".

    And to bring this all around to Hawke, it is Hawke and only Hawke that actually is the impetus for Merrill changing her mind and not trying to face everything alone. It's important to note that Hawke has this effect whether she supports Merrill or opposes her every step of the way. This is because unlike Marethari, who sends Merrill away in silent disapproval, Hawke is actually there for Merrill. Whatever Hawke thinks of Merrill's quixotic quest, she never abandons her or just tries to handle the problem and cut Merrill out (unless you ignore Merrill and don't pursue her questline of course, in which case the aforementioned events don't happen in the scope of the game). That's why Hawke can save Merrill in the end, whereas Marethari instead only doomed herself - and dies with "I told you so" on her lips.

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