Is it possible to Solo Level 1 the BG Saga?

bbear

Is it possible to Solo Level 1 the BG Saga?

Class: FMT
Difficulty: Core, except at Character Creation to maximize HP

Roll = 90
Str = 18/00, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 15, Wis 3, Cha 18
-Fighter for equipments
-Mage for scrolls and wands
-Thief for Find Traps, backstab, pickpocket

-Alignment: Chaotic Good, Find Familiar: One that has invisibility 10 Radius
-All Thief Points to Find Traps -> 55 + drink Potions of Perceptions
-18/00 Str can break locks -> 45 + occasional knock spells / drink Potions of Master of Thievery
-Starting HP = 15, +12 from Find Familiar, +4 from Larloin's Minor Drain, +1d6 from Vampiric Touch (special), +5 from Helmet of Balduran, Max HP ~ 40
-BG2 lose Vampiric Touch, but gain Armor of Balduran +4 HP
-Pips Longsword++, Longbow++

BG1 THACO:
-Range (max) = 2/0: +3 from Dex 19 / +5 from Dex 24, +1 Specialization, +1 Helm of Balduran, +2 Bracer of Archery, +3 Bow of Marksmanship, +4 Arrow of Piercing, +4 Potion of Power
-Melee (max) = 8/4 : +3 from Str 18/00 / +7 from Str 25, +1 Specialization, +1 Helm of Balduran, +1 Gaunlet of Weapon Expertise, +2 Longsword+2, +4 Potion of Power

BG2 THACO
-Range (max, Dex 24) = -1/-2, Same as BG1, replace Bow of Marksmanship with Elven Court Bow +4 THACO, Tarlash Bow +5 THACO, THACO actually increases because some enemies require +2 or +3 arrows (arrow of piercing is normal or +1 weapon?)
-Melee (max, Str 24) = 4/2, Same as BG1, replace Longsword+2 with Blade of Roses +3/Blackrazor +3, Angurvadal +5

-BG1 Strategy: Wand of Summoning/Fire/Cloudkill + Archer, occasional elemental/magic resistance from green scrolls/potions
-BG2 Strategy: Wand of Summoning/Fire, Simularcum + scroll exploits (helmet with 1 free casting per day), occasional elemental/magic resistance from green scrolls/potions
-ToB Strategy: Clay Golem (immune to all except death spell/blunt weapons), Wand of Summoning, Simularcum exploit, occasional elemental/magic resistance from green scrolls/potions

-I foresee that this setup should be able to overcome all storyline encounters except the Amelissan final battle. The only problem in this battle is the initial setup. Amelissan likes to summon a lot monsters and my solo PC will be overwhelmed.
-The only other difficult challenge is the level 3 Watcher's Keep where you have to face at least 1 demons encounter.
-I may miss equipments that can further enhance my PC survival and THACO.

Questions:
-Does a level 1 simulacrum clone automatically die because a level drain of level 1 = level 0?
-Is longsword the optimized melee weapon for the BG saga? I think a shield is necessary for AC purposes and longswords have the most variety, availability and effects.
-How to tell whether a monster deals blunt or slashing attack? It's trivial for opponents that use weapons. What about trolls, werewolves, mindflayers, demons, etc? Stab animation = piercing? Claw animation = slashing? Punch animation = blunt?

O_Bruce

Without exploits it's probably impossible, but with those, I think that there might be possibility to solo entire saga. It's not like I ever tried to do that solo lvl. 1, but then again it's against my policy to play BG like that.

Mitchfork

I don't think you get much out of doubling up pips in long bow and long sword. The big thing about 2 pips is the extra 1/2 attack, and you don't get that for ranged weapons (long bow) so you're better off splitting that pip into another weapon in my opinion.

Then again- after a certain point you'll be pretty iffy in melee anyway, right? You're looking at 2 APR base maximum (Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization + Specialization) without speed weapons, very limited uses of Haste/Improved Haste (Ring of Gaxx/Bracers of Blinding Strike), and your THAC0 is base 20 for the entire game.

Of course this advice is given with the assumption that clearing the game at all is possible, so... I'd think that your poor saving throws would be the biggest challenge to overcome in this run. Any mage is going to be able to one-shot you with any spell in their book. Your only stun protection will come from Greenstone Amulet or Brine Potions as well, so you'll struggle with any enemy that can inflict it.

EDIT: Also, for the Simulacrum question- the level drain applied is based on a formula (Multiclassed mages: Original caster's level - (caster's level / 2) for each class), not a 60% multiplier as the spell description states. This will be level .5 for each class, which the game may round up or down. A level 0 character should die (as your party members would). It would be easy enough to test this using EEKeeper, though.

bbear

Mitchfork said:

I don't think you get much out of doubling up pips in long bow and long sword. The big thing about 2 pips is the extra 1/2 attack, and you don't get that for ranged weapons (long bow) so you're better off splitting that pip into another weapon in my opinion.

Of course this advice is given with the assumption that clearing the game at all is possible, so... I'd think that your poor saving throws would be the biggest challenge to overcome in this run. Any mage is going to be able to one-shot you with any spell in their book. Your only stun protection will come from Greenstone Amulet or Brine Potions as well, so you'll struggle with any enemy that can inflict it.

I thought 2 pips give you extra 1/2 attack even for range weapons. Now I think about this, it may be more advantegous to put 2 pips in slings instead. Slings have +4 bullets and acquire str bonus. Of course, it suffers the loss of 1 extra attack and the various goodies (arrows of dispelling and arrows of detonations).

There are various ways to bypass stun effects. Simply use a summon to absorb those attacks should work. I believe the potion of clarity/potion of freedom protects you from stun effect. Does the ring of freedom work or has it been patched to not grant immunity to stun?

Also, there are various ways to lower saving throws. Potion of Invulnerability, Ring of Protection +2, Ring of Gaax, Protection from Evil, and other equipments.

golingarf

Mitchfork said:

I don't think you get much out of doubling up pips in long bow and long sword. The big thing about 2 pips is the extra 1/2 attack, and you don't get that for ranged weapons (long bow) so you're better off splitting that pip into another weapon in my opinion.

The extra 1/2 attack does show up in your information screen. Is there a bug that stops you from getting it?

Tresset

I kinda think you are a bit crazy for the challenges you do anyway, but that doesn't mean that I don't think you can do it. To me you are the king of metagaming trickery and capable of all sorts of amazing feats.

CrevsDaak

If you are willing to play vanilla BG1 and vanilla BG2 you can easily do this. It will require to exploit everything, but anyway, the item exploit in BG1+pause and drop everything in BG2 you can do this, if you do the same with arrows of detonation and you keep all your stuff maybe you can get over BG2 early game play easily.
I think you should consider Belm and Kundane in BG2, this new BG2:EE feature that gives you infinite Proficiency Points when you go back in the skills screen is very helpful.
I'd ask @Smilge for BG2SoA/ToB exploits, some that I can give to make the gameplay less tedious is to cap the XP at 15 (just to say a number), so you don't get tempted to level up, and yo should tweak the SoA starting XP too.

TwoWayFinesse

Please, for my own sanity, someone tell me this can't work!

Hats off to you if you can though

bbear

CrevsDaak said:

If you are willing to play vanilla BG1 and vanilla BG2 you can easily do this. It will require to exploit everything, but anyway, the item exploit in BG1+pause and drop everything in BG2 you can do this, if you do the same with arrows of detonation and you keep all your stuff maybe you can get over BG2 early game play easily.
I think you should consider Belm and Kundane in BG2, this new BG2:EE feature that gives you infinite Proficiency Points when you go back in the skills screen is very helpful.
I'd ask @Smilge for BG2SoA/ToB exploits, some that I can give to make the gameplay less tedious is to cap the XP at 15 (just to say a number), so you don't get tempted to level up, and yo should tweak the SoA starting XP too.

Well, not too much exploits are needed. The main one is the simularcum + item trick. Maybe I'll throw in a talk/stealing trick (when you fail to steal from store, pause and talk to the storekeeper again; this will never prompt the "you thief!" dialogue.) simply for the fact that this minimizes the number of reloads.

Also, you can pickpocket items in vanilla that requires you otherwise to defeat a certain foe. For example, in hell trial, you can pickpocket the bhaal's tear (or was it the Blackrazor sword after you turn over it?) from the genie. You dont have to kill or hand over the Blackrazor AND get the good result. Getting an extra Ring of Gaax/Ring of Ram is nice in vanilla, but not necessary.

the_spyder

anything's "Possible". Personally, I'd ask why you would want to do that, but hey... If you have fun doing it, more power to you. Try it out and let us know.

CrevsDaak

bbear said:

Well, not too much exploits are needed. The main one is the simularcum + item trick. Maybe I'll throw in a talk/stealing trick (when you fail to steal from store, pause and talk to the storekeeper again; this will never prompt the "you thief!" dialogue.) simply for the fact that this minimizes the number of reloads.

Also, you can pickpocket items in vanilla that requires you otherwise to defeat a certain foe. For example, in hell trial, you can pickpocket the bhaal's tear (or was it the Blackrazor sword after you turn over it?) from the genie. You dont have to kill or hand over the Blackrazor AND get the good result. Getting an extra Ring of Gaax/Ring of Ram is nice in vanilla, but not necessary.

Yeah, I know how it feels to have 2 Rings of the Gaxx in vanilla, but this is not going to help you that much, the Rings of the Ram yes are going to help a lot, besides the Bag of (Holding) Recharging trick for infinite item abilities (infinite Minor Spell Turning and Improved Haste with some items) that could help you, the Talk to leave a Neutral guy to do nothing for a round or end it's current action is really cool, you can kill Sarevok without turning him hostile if you wish to.
EDIT: In BG2 there is a Spear+3 that gives +9 (I can't remember this at 100%) Hit Points, it might help sometimes, and the spear "Impaler" deals out nice damage.

booinyoureyes

ctrl-y everything!!!!!!!

CrevsDaak

booinyoureyes said:

ctrl-y everything!!!!!!!

Hey, that's not the spirit!! He meant to power game everything, not to use the console!!!

TheSarge

Yes, it's possible, but it isn't fun and it involves a lot of luck & reloads.

None of the Infinity Engine games were meant to be soloed... especially not BG.

Let's say you go human and don't dual-class. Well then, if you have your main character as a tank or a rouge, then he will need mage & cleric support or he won't have anyone to buff his save rolls, cure disease, etc. If your main character is anything but a tank then he needs tank support or he'll get quickly mashed into chunky salsa by a mob of orcs. 1st level mages are weak sauce, mkay? Good luck surviving out there by yourself.

If you go non-human and multi-class, then your level advancement will be painfully slow and involve a lot of grinding, plus you effectively divide your level cap by the number of classes you've rolled into one character thus effectively preventing you from surviving the final battle. So no joy being a elf fighter-mage.

I could go on and on, but solo grinding is not how you're supposed to play BG. Imoen and Minsc are there for a reason. Now go pet Boo and say you're sorry you ignored him. He misses you.

mumumomo

Probably possible with exploits. Like you, i think the final fight will be the only real show stopper.
That being said, i don't see the point of a challenge if you kill the challenge by using exploits.

You may find that simulacrum + scroll is a minor exploit but actually it is a huge one (protection from magic, level 9 spells). Fake talking is also a big one.

I

Mitchfork

bbear said:

I thought 2 pips give you extra 1/2 attack even for range weapons. Now I think about this, it may be more advantegous to put 2 pips in slings instead. Slings have +4 bullets and acquire str bonus. Of course, it suffers the loss of 1 extra attack and the various goodies (arrows of dispelling and arrows of detonations).

golingarf said:

The extra 1/2 attack does show up in your information screen. Is there a bug that stops you from getting it?

Looking at a Fighter/Thief character I have it seems like it does. Most of what I've read about the proficiencies makes the note that ranged weapons don't benefit from specialization APR. Don't know what it should be, though. My bad.

CrevsDaak

mumumomo said:

Probably possible with exploits. Like you, i think the final fight will be the only real show stopper.

The fight against Sarevok is very easy. Talk to him while the game is paused, before unpausing start shooting Arrows of Detonation, do that again for every round until he is dead, and you can do this with a level one PC.

bbear

CrevsDaak said:

mumumomo said:

Probably possible with exploits. Like you, i think the final fight will be the only real show stopper.

The fight against Sarevok is very easy. Talk to him while the game is paused, before unpausing start shooting Arrows of Detonation, do that again for every round until he is dead, and you can do this with a level one PC.

I dont think fake talk is necessary. As I recall, either Semaj or Angelo was spamming fireballs. Why not just get protection from magic and kite around the enemy group, while Sarevok gets fried. You can add to it by spamming fireballs from wand of fire while running around.

CrevsDaak

bbear said:

CrevsDaak said:

mumumomo said:

Probably possible with exploits. Like you, i think the final fight will be the only real show stopper.

The fight against Sarevok is very easy. Talk to him while the game is paused, before unpausing start shooting Arrows of Detonation, do that again for every round until he is dead, and you can do this with a level one PC.

I dont think fake talk is necessary. As I recall, either Semaj or Angelo was spamming fireballs. Why not just get protection from magic and kite around the enemy group, while Sarevok gets fried. You can add to it by spamming fireballs from wand of fire while running around.

Angelo spams Arrows of Detonation. The point is this way is safer if you also plan a no-reload run, and if you do not plan a no-reload run it is very good too.

Tresset

If a level 1 character casts simulacrum you get a level 1 simulacrum that is level drained by 0 levels.

Kaltzor

Only way I could see a level 1 run working is more cheese than a cheese factory or 3...

also, if you plan on doing the entire saga... I think importing to BG2 automatically levels you up to it's normal starting levels if you're below it.

GamingFreak

Fire Giants would rofl-stomp you to the ground, assuming you can even REACH them. Now if you were consoling in all the scrolls in the world (IE, being a big dirty cheater) then it could be possible if you abused the crap out of Time Stop and OP spells... but then you'd be cheating to get the challenge done, and thus it would be a hollow victory. You might as well do a solo level 1 Ctrl + Y challenge if that were the case.

bbear

GamingFreak said:

Fire Giants would rofl-stomp you to the ground, assuming you can even REACH them. Now if you were consoling in all the scrolls in the world (IE, being a big dirty cheater) then it could be possible if you abused the crap out of Time Stop and OP spells... but then you'd be cheating to get the challenge done, and thus it would be a hollow victory. You might as well do a solo level 1 Ctrl + Y challenge if that were the case.

Umm...I dont cheat. No consoling. No fake talk either (which is an exploit and not a cheat). I'll try to avoid simularcum+scroll exploit as much as possible, which frankly should be doable in SoA. It's only unavoidable when you are go up against monsters such as the Abazigal, Draconis and Ravager.

Fire giants arent that scary. Sure they can deal tons of damage, but the idea is not getting melee contact. I have enough summon fodders to soak up all the damage in the world.

bbear

I just completed Chateau Irenicus with the a level 1/1/1 character. I used Shadowkeeper to hack my character back to level 1. Unlike BG1, BG2 gives double hp on level 1 character, which I have adopted in this game. A 1/1/1 FMT has 10 hp w/o constitution bonus. He has 4 pips, 40 thief points, and 2 memorizable spells. THACO is 20 and saving throws are 13/11/12/15/12. Apparently, saves in each category are the lowest value taken from the 3 classes (just cross reference in BG1).

My character has total stats of 90 and they are 18/00 /19/17/15/3/18. He has 2 pips in each longsword and longbow, 40 points at find traps and the selected spells are Find Familiar and Blindness. My specials are minor healing, larchloin minor drain, 2x slow poison, DUHM and vampiric touch. My familiar is the fairy dragon.

Fairy dragon is pretty awesome. It has 32 MR, 100 fire and electric resistance. It has 24 hp and some nice immunities. On top of that, it has Mirror Image and Invisibility 10 Radius. It just save my butt in the current game when it triggered an undisarmable spike trap at ellisime's room (my crappy find trap ability is 55)!

Vampiric touch gives more hp than otherwise. Technically, I should receive 1d6 extra hp at level 1, but I have been getting values from 4 - 20 so far. I noticed this when my PC survived 2 traps in a row.

The game is vanilla BG2. I'll upload some images tomorrow.

Edit: I made a mistake earlier. A 1/1/1 FMT has 12 hp w/o con bonus. It's the average of mage, thief and fighter hit dice, round down times 2.

abacus

Isn't a simple Death Spell going to instakill you along with any summons?

bob_veng

no, it's not going to be possible to beat some bosses, mage fights etc.

lroumen

Just avoid all means of combat, steal a lot and buy everything you might need. I think that will get you really far. You do not need to kill many foes to get through the storyline and you sure do not kill anyone for the XP. The most useful gear you can buy. I do wonder about some of the end battles, but I think you should be able to get through it with some inventiveness and casting from scrolls.

FinneousPJ

With unlimited reloads and cheese I don't see why not. I can't imagine it being fun though. If you think you'll find it fun, go ahead...

bob_veng

it's impossible to beat melissan with any such setup
i don't see any strategy that's going to land her the killing blow

also, draconis

hell, how would you even beat irenicus? you don't even have the golem manual at that time.

Yamcha

Without mods like SCS and a intimate knowledge of the game (what weapon enchantment is my opponent using, which spellschool must I block etc.) and some good resource management, very doable.
At least till ToB starts.. then the odds shift to impossible.


Have you tried a "Solo, without reloading"
No exp restriction makes this a bit more fun

CrevsDaak

bob_veng said:

it's impossible to beat melissan with any such setup
i don't see any strategy that's going to land her the killing blow

also, draconis

hell, how would you even beat irenicus? you don't even have the golem manual at that time.

You can pick the Manual at Chapter 3 or 3, and I guess he is going to do so.
You can kill Draconis with many things very easily, he is a tough opponent, but he can't reload nor use exploits. Amelysan fight is rather easy, she won't fall to Time Stop like Draconis and deals insane damage, but her spear deals piercing damage, but she auto slays summons...
For Amelyssan you can use Bigby's Clenched Fist, the level 8 Mage Spell that holds with no save, this applies to Abazigal and a few more, a real trick, I don't think you could kill her in melee, but with a little help of some spells dealing 250 damage without counting her resistances (50% against physical and something else for elements, like 100 for some and 75 for others), so it is rather an easy fight.
I think the real pain will be Balthazar, but maybe I am wrong, it could have been good to get the Golden Pantaloons and build the Big Metal Unit in ToB, just for the Big Metal Rod for a AoE ranged 5 APR weapon.