Third Edition added a lot of customization to character building; with the revisions in 3.5e, there was increased pressure to create more and more options to satisfy players' need for greater customization. The result was a system with so many supplemental rules (not all of which were well balanced or balanced against each other) that you couldn't reliably run a game without worrying about whether one of your players was going to pull out Pun-Pun or something similar to destroy the campaign in the next session.
Fourth Edition, arguably, went too far in the other direction. It still has a lot of customization, but it was an answer to the cry for greater game balance. For a lot of players, the balance created in 4e was too dull, making every class feel more or less like every other class. (I'm not saying that's true, but when the edition was released that's what a lot of people said about it. Actually playing the game is different from reading the rules, of course.)
In all of these cases, mind, the changes came as a result of player feedback. Everything in D&DNext has been playtested and fun-tested by thousands and thousands of players, all of them wanting different things out of the game. For me personally, the results have been promising. I like a lot of the concepts being used in the design, even if I don't necessarily agree with all of the execution.
Design by committee is always at least partially detrimental, as is design by focus group; anything that restricts creativity is going to hurt a little. But you also can't build a game in a vacuum; you need people to try it out and tell you what works and what doesn't. And a lot of the time working within a container actually encourages more ingenuity.
None of this should in any way be construed as a clue or a hint as to what we may be thinking about for future projects; this is just me, as a gamer, offering my own perspective on the evolution of D&D. It's not all bad, and it's dangerous to think that "They did what people wanted and now it's ruined" is an argument for never listening to anyone. At the end of the day the game has to be successful in order to keep the lights on. The challenge for any designer is to make sure that the resulting product is still fun, even after you've made it a first person shooter "because that's what sells cartridges".
Now IMO they certainly ramped up that way of decision making come late 3.5
Like what, for example? I'm not too familiar with publishing stories and it would be gun to know how it affected 3.5.
I'd probably point to the Lady Penitent series that killed off most of the Drow Pantheon (Vhaeraun, Eilistraee, Kiaransalee, Selvetarm) and color-coded the drow along skin color into 'good drow' and 'bad drow' in order to facilitate folks who like to play Drizzt types. Series ended right about the same time as 4th edition came out, which (surprise surprise) killed off a whole host of other deities as well.
Thinking is that WoTC wanted to 'simplify' the pantheon, which is why a lot of the gods got the axe, and why a bunch of the others got consolidated. (Talos and Gruumsh are now the same god, for instance)
As for the subject of 'design by committee' I think the important distinction to make here is that when the term is used, it's not in an attempt to disparage cooperative development, but rather the extreme end result we see in 4th edition as a result of WoTC being a bit too out of touch and trying to force too many concepts and ideas that didn't fit into the setting and perhaps the ruleset. More of a forcing a square peg through a round hole sort of deal.
And as for doing what people wanted, I think that's already been spoken for-what with Pathfinder outselling 4th edition. The problem here is that WoTC *didn't* do what people wanted, because they didn't understand their own product and didn't know what to do with it. WoTC were the ones who didn't listen, and that's an issue that will hopefully be dealt with in 5th edition.
If you're going to champion the sales figures, get them right. 4E fell to #2 behind.…you guessed it, Pathfinder.
Yup, it's been quite evident for some time that the 4th edition changes had quite the detrimental impact on the popularity of D&D and in particular their flagship setting-Forgotten Realms.
The whole 'Sundering' thing that's been brought up is WoTC attempt at an olive branch towards the fans of Forgotten Realms they lost in 4th edition. This is why we are getting adventures like 'Murder in Baldur's Gate' meant to appeal to the sense of nostalgia many have of the older material. This is also why said adventure was released in multiple editions. This is also why WoTC has been reprinting older material. WoTC is desperately trying to regain the lost faith of the community with such actions. The time of 'good riddance, you won't be missed' has passed, and it's a bit uninformed IMO to presume that this attitude is still relevant given the current situation has come about because of the fans "forgetting" the Forgotten Realms (and 4th edition in general) and moving onto Pathfinder or earlier editions.
Now whether or not WoTC's actions are too little too late or not, I expect we'll see given time-but it's certainly not a panacea-what would obviously mollify the biggest section of the disillusioned fanbase would be to rollback the timeline to before the Spellplague happened, but WoTC is not doing that. And WoTC has been rather mum about the extent to which and what messes that occurred in 4th edition will be retconned.
I think D&D's current problems is mostly just 4th edition itself. At one time MMOs wanted to be like P&P RPGs, but 4E looked like they wanted their P&P RPG to be like an MMO.
As for the Forgotten Realms, I can take it or leave it. It's an okay setting, but I'm still bitter about them jettisoning Greyhawk because it was Gygax's baby.
At one time MMOs wanted to be like P&P RPGs, but 4E looked like they wanted their P&P RPG to be like an MMO.
P&P has been moving in the direction of, if not necessarily MMO, definitely being CRPG compatible. Developers understand that the money lies in this type of gaming and have been tailoring towards that end for years. But it's a double edged sword. The more structure and order placed on a game like DnD, the less it is a free flowing environment. but the more accessible it becomes and the greater funding that goes into it by virtue of wider market.
I think D&D's current problems is mostly just 4th edition itself. At one time MMOs wanted to be like P&P RPGs, but 4E looked like they wanted their P&P RPG to be like an MMO.
As for the Forgotten Realms, I can take it or leave it. It's an okay setting, but I'm still bitter about them jettisoning Greyhawk because it was Gygax's baby.
Aye, I think that 4th edition, if not the source of the problems, is at least emblematic of them. At this point I think the future of D&D will in no small part be determined in how they decide to distance themselves from 4th edition and to what extent.
Greyhawk was fun, I think the only computer game set in it was temple of Elemental Evil. I'd love to revisit the setting sometime-perhaps a next project after BGII EE?
The challenge for any designer is to make sure that the resulting product is still fun, even after you've made it a first person shooter "because that's what sells cartridges".
Oh my!
Baldur's Gate as a first person shooter!
Baldur's Gate is DOOMED!
...
Or maybe Wolfenstiened...
...
So... complete X-Files style putting things together here... Trent talks about BG:Next... Dee talks about D&D:Next...
So... have we a completely solid rumour based on no real evidence that BG3 will use the newest edition.
Well, player feedback should never cross your main vision of how your fantasy world works and looks. Once you leave your own path you´ll never got it right again. You only betray yourself and lose the ground of your setting. Then you see things happen that makes no sense and the complete history is out of order. If a world has prostitutes as an example they are to 80 % street hookers, dirty and to 90 & infected by a desease, if it´s a fantasy game or a fantasy game it doesnt matter.
We live in a free world and people should decide for themself what they play and whatnot and if they dont like a little bit reality in a game let them play monopoly. But to me D&D had a good portion of reality (how a world works..) in it. Or just my DMs were just logic people by default!
But to change so many things in their 4E was not a decission by world design of fearun itself. IT was all forced and then the explanations were build after that. You notice when someone is not in touch anymore with his work... Star wars... Eugh
So... complete X-Files style putting things together here... Trent talks about BG:Next... Dee talks about D&D:Next...
So... have we a completely solid rumour based on no real evidence that BG3 will use the newest edition.
I don't think there's much of a conspiracy theory around this hypothesis. If a new game comes out, the owners of the DnD license are going to want to cross sell it with whatever the newest version of the PnP game is. It only makes solid marketing sense to do that. And regardless of what we may wish, that's the way it will probably be.
Of course I am perfectly happy to be wrong on that.
"Black Isle released Baldur’s Gate: Enhanced Edition and Baldur’s Gate II: Enhanced Edition in conjunction with Overhaul Games. Though there is no new Baldur’s Gate title currently pending, Black Isle has started work on a new RPG by the name of Project V13, which is said to be the successor to the failed Interplay project that was Fallout Online. In order to fund a prototype of Project V13, Black Isle created the Black Isle Mayan Apocalypse Replacement Program, which uses a crowdfunding dynamic similar to Kickstarter.
So now that Black Isle is back into the swing of things and set up with a new source of fan-driven financing, the question must be asked: when can we expect to see a Baldur’s Gate III, if ever? The biggest hurdle that Black Isle faces right now is their lack of IP licenses on franchises that they themselves created, such as Fallout and Baldur’s Gate. Reobtaining those licenses will no doubt be an expensive endeavour for Black Isle and not a very practical one at such an early stage in their reemergence. But, for those of you who are holding out hope like me, there’s a chance for Black Isle to claw their way back to the top of pile, so long as they stick to what they do best: making some of the best role playing games in the world."
What is it? I've never heard BGEEs were published with the help of Black Isle. Although my first reaction to this is a big doubt this article still opens new dimension on ho we look at BG3. What if Black Isle really can help Beamdog here? Or can they help with IWD3 or IWDEE?
What Black Isle will do after the the Project V13 is an open question. The author of the article suggests it can be BG. Although I doubt it, it still deserves the mention.
I personally would love to see one set in the planescape universe although since it's been discontinued as a campaign setting would that even be possible?
I acquired all of the planescape source books just to read about the rich and myriad worlds of the planes. I think it'd work quite well in the isometric format.
Where have you been? It already came out as a free-to-play tablet game with micro-transactions and paywalls.
It didn't involve Bhaalspawn, Baldur's Gate and wasn't a top down isometric game. It did, however, allow you to add sparkles to your horse...if you paid for it of course.
Comments
Fourth Edition, arguably, went too far in the other direction. It still has a lot of customization, but it was an answer to the cry for greater game balance. For a lot of players, the balance created in 4e was too dull, making every class feel more or less like every other class. (I'm not saying that's true, but when the edition was released that's what a lot of people said about it. Actually playing the game is different from reading the rules, of course.)
In all of these cases, mind, the changes came as a result of player feedback. Everything in D&DNext has been playtested and fun-tested by thousands and thousands of players, all of them wanting different things out of the game. For me personally, the results have been promising. I like a lot of the concepts being used in the design, even if I don't necessarily agree with all of the execution.
Design by committee is always at least partially detrimental, as is design by focus group; anything that restricts creativity is going to hurt a little. But you also can't build a game in a vacuum; you need people to try it out and tell you what works and what doesn't. And a lot of the time working within a container actually encourages more ingenuity.
None of this should in any way be construed as a clue or a hint as to what we may be thinking about for future projects; this is just me, as a gamer, offering my own perspective on the evolution of D&D. It's not all bad, and it's dangerous to think that "They did what people wanted and now it's ruined" is an argument for never listening to anyone. At the end of the day the game has to be successful in order to keep the lights on. The challenge for any designer is to make sure that the resulting product is still fun, even after you've made it a first person shooter "because that's what sells cartridges".
Thinking is that WoTC wanted to 'simplify' the pantheon, which is why a lot of the gods got the axe, and why a bunch of the others got consolidated. (Talos and Gruumsh are now the same god, for instance) As for the subject of 'design by committee' I think the important distinction to make here is that when the term is used, it's not in an attempt to disparage cooperative development, but rather the extreme end result we see in 4th edition as a result of WoTC being a bit too out of touch and trying to force too many concepts and ideas that didn't fit into the setting and perhaps the ruleset. More of a forcing a square peg through a round hole sort of deal.
And as for doing what people wanted, I think that's already been spoken for-what with Pathfinder outselling 4th edition. The problem here is that WoTC *didn't* do what people wanted, because they didn't understand their own product and didn't know what to do with it. WoTC were the ones who didn't listen, and that's an issue that will hopefully be dealt with in 5th edition.
As for the Forgotten Realms, I can take it or leave it. It's an okay setting, but I'm still bitter about them jettisoning Greyhawk because it was Gygax's baby.
all in my opinion.
Greyhawk was fun, I think the only computer game set in it was temple of Elemental Evil. I'd love to revisit the setting sometime-perhaps a next project after BGII EE?
Baldur's Gate as a first person shooter!
Baldur's Gate is DOOMED!
...
Or maybe Wolfenstiened...
...
So... complete X-Files style putting things together here... Trent talks about BG:Next... Dee talks about D&D:Next...
So... have we a completely solid rumour based on no real evidence that BG3 will use the newest edition.
We live in a free world and people should decide for themself what they play and whatnot and if they dont like a little bit reality in a game let them play monopoly. But to me D&D had a good portion of reality (how a world works..) in it. Or just my DMs were just logic people by default!
But to change so many things in their 4E was not a decission by world design of fearun itself. IT was all forced and then the explanations were build after that. You notice when someone is not in touch anymore with his work... Star wars... Eugh
Of course I am perfectly happy to be wrong on that.
Recently I've found this amazing (from the idea-guessing point of view) article from yesterday:
http://www.clickonline.com/games/feature--bringing-it-back-baldurs-gate/23664
"Black Isle released Baldur’s Gate: Enhanced Edition and Baldur’s Gate II: Enhanced Edition in conjunction with Overhaul Games. Though there is no new Baldur’s Gate title currently pending, Black Isle has started work on a new RPG by the name of Project V13, which is said to be the successor to the failed Interplay project that was Fallout Online. In order to fund a prototype of Project V13, Black Isle created the Black Isle Mayan Apocalypse Replacement Program, which uses a crowdfunding dynamic similar to Kickstarter.
So now that Black Isle is back into the swing of things and set up with a new source of fan-driven financing, the question must be asked: when can we expect to see a Baldur’s Gate III, if ever? The biggest hurdle that Black Isle faces right now is their lack of IP licenses on franchises that they themselves created, such as Fallout and Baldur’s Gate. Reobtaining those licenses will no doubt be an expensive endeavour for Black Isle and not a very practical one at such an early stage in their reemergence. But, for those of you who are holding out hope like me, there’s a chance for Black Isle to claw their way back to the top of pile, so long as they stick to what they do best: making some of the best role playing games in the world."
What is it? I've never heard BGEEs were published with the help of Black Isle. Although my first reaction to this is a big doubt this article still opens new dimension on ho we look at BG3. What if Black Isle really can help Beamdog here? Or can they help with IWD3 or IWDEE?
The wiki page says the Project V13 will be released in 2015 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Isle_Studios
All the updates can be seen on their site http://www.blackisle.com
What Black Isle will do after the the Project V13 is an open question. The author of the article suggests it can be BG. Although I doubt it, it still deserves the mention.
This speculation is already starting to reach gaming news sites, for i.e.
http://www.playmagazine.ca/tags/interplay
So, I think it's necessary to share this find with everyone here.
I acquired all of the planescape source books just to read about the rich and myriad worlds of the planes. I think it'd work quite well in the isometric format.
Interesting read, though!
Updates?
It didn't involve Bhaalspawn, Baldur's Gate and wasn't a top down isometric game. It did, however, allow you to add sparkles to your horse...if you paid for it of course.
At Obsidian they just MADE it, WTF are they waiting for here????