BG1 and 2 Animitions

Zymran86

Since there are some that like the BG 1 animitions better than BG 2 and the other way around, why not include both in the game, and people can simple change the default sprites (whichever that may be) in Shadowkeeper.
I actually liked some of the BG 2 Animitions better than BG1.

Tanthalas

The problem with the BG1 animations is that they can't show you dual-wielding. That kills it for many people (though others certainly disagree with this).

They could rework them I guess, but I don't think Overhaul thinks its worth the trouble given that they probably have to redraw them from scratch.

AndreaColombo

If the devs took care of this, I could do the missing animation work (with Miloch's precious help) and enable BG1 animations to dual wield.

technophobe

No more mirroring, plz.

Winthal

I would prefer the BG1 animations to stay intact, simply because the game won't feel like BG1 anymore if they're switched to BG2. But then again, alot of things might change making the feel different... so it really depends. I like them both, at the end of the day.

Zaccaro

Aren't they making the graphics new altogether? If so then why keep the animations and how would they implement the new drawings to the animation?

Dee

The graphics aren't new (for the most part); they're enhanced. This means that they're running the existing sprite graphics through an algorithm to improve image quality when they're scaled to higher resolutions. The result is that you get the same animations, but rendered at a higher resolution with (slightly) better quality.

Personally, I wish they could have used the original art assets to scale everything properly, but alas, they were lost somehow. Probably sitting in the bottom of somebody's drawer, which means it'll turn up in another five years, long after we've all gotten used to the existing sprites.

sarevok57

based on the one screen shot of "putting bg ee on mac with widescreen support and such" you can see gameplay on the screen and it looks like its run with bg II sprites and complete bg II UI by the looks of it so far, so i wonder how much its going to change when it finally comes out?

Dee

It's worth noting that those "screenshots" are from very early in development, which was essentially just moving BG1 to the ToB engine. The new UI will look quite a bit different, I suspect, although the sprites and animations should be largely the same.

sarevok57

yeah, i remember seeing somewhere there was talk about changing the UI and such

Dee

Yep - and that's still in process. Those screenshots were the very, very first shots that were revealed, before they started ripping out all the code for reworking.

sarevok57

@Aosaw, i seeeeeeeeeees, cant wait for them to actually post some screenshots so we can take a sneak peek at whats actually being done yes?

Mornmagor

Hey folks, i apologise if this has been discussed before, but i could not find it with the search function or through browsing.

Anyway, Baldur's Gate was never about the graphics, we can all agree. However, and since it would be too much to request a total graphic overhaul, there is one thing that in my opinion we definetely need to see.

New character models. Since the area graphics are not changing( i think?) then please, at least make some new character models, the ones from BG2 were seriously awful. I preferred the BG1 models and animations by far, for characters.

There are already mods out there that put BG1 character models and animations in BG2, so in all truth, i am expecting something more from BG:EE, i expect something the mods cannot give. A new character look, and since we are talking about 2D here, i guess it could be possible.

Not talking about paperdolls( inventory images - if that is what they are, i have no idea if they have anything to do with the actual in game avatar), i am talking about the actual character graphics with their equipment on.

The BG2 character models and animations are hideous for me, compared to BG1, so, with whatever power my "voice" can have, please hear this request or tell me that we are seeing some new char models :P. The models of the character had one problem in both games. They always looked worse than their surroundings. Too pixelated compared to the backround. But in Baldur's Gate 1 they looked pretty neat imo, especially in armor.

In BG2, they went for the worse, still pixelated compared to the backround, but also with worse appearance and animation. Even in BG1 i could make out details in parts of the armor like the shinguards, which i couldn't in BG2, i think this speaks for itself.

Sorry for the long post, good luck with your project, know that i will support you whatever yout decision on the subject is, but i have faith in you that along with the "awesomes" you are making, you will squeaze in some better char models. WE KNOW YOU CAN DO THIS lol , \o/

Cheers

elminster

You know, for something I've starred at for hours, I've never really had any issues with the character models. But, not knowing how difficult it is to create them, I'd say if they have the time it would be great to see some variety provided.

Mornmagor

Yeah, would be ace.

Ah, the "problem", would be the following : The sprites and models for character were made in low native resolution, and thus many areas of the models were not detailed but blurred and pixelated, so you could have a general idea of what it looked like. This made a contrast with the backrounds that were sharper.

But the real problem is that, if you make larger resolutions possible(1920x1080 for example), you will see all the missing details "in detail" ,basically since the models were not really created for bigger resolutions, the upscaling of the screen will make the problems more noticeable.

But other than that, they can do so much AMAZING stuff in 2D models, they could make the characters look awesome, which is what i hope for :]

P.S. Let me clarify that i have no idea what kind of "graphical overhaul" we will see in the game, so i'm just guessing that they are not re creating anything.

Trent said that they " have done new artwork from scratch" but i have no idea what he meant. New area art? Character model and equipment art? I guess they won't make nea areas awesome and old ones lackluster, same thing with character models, would be weird to look at dated and pixelated models in new awesome backround :P

ScotGaymer

I think it's fairly safe to say that we can count on enhanced graphics.

Isn't it kinda the point of an Enhanced Edition?

Daedalus87m

@Mornmagor - I agree, that the BG1 models looked more realistic and detailed, but I didn't like the animations at all. Walking human characters looked like they just came out of the gym, lol.

Tanthalas

@fitscotgaymer

There will be enhanced graphics of some kind, but unfortunately, from Trent's twitter it doesn't seem like character animations will be a part of that. Though, we'll only know for sure once they release screenshots.

AndreaColombo

Hi @Mornmagor,

this has already been discussed in three threads, two of which I started. In this thread I ask the devs to remove the mirroring effect from BG2 animations; in this other thread I'm asking them to remove the engine limitations that prevent BG1 animations from dual-wielding; last but not least, in this thread someone stated that BG1 animations look better than BG2 animations ( @Tanthalas may want to merge these two threads).

I agree with you 100%. BG2 animations look underwhelming, pixellated and, courtesy of the mirroring effect, positively stupid and technologically backward. However, removing the mirroring effect from them as per my request is impossible, since the source art assets were lost ( @PhillipDaigle confirmed this for SoA/ToB art assets as well). It is theoretically possible to restore BG1 animations but that would require some coding, some resource renaming, and lots of animation work as per my second request. If the devs took care at least of the coding and renaming (as I doubt they have the time to do any animation work), I would gladly take care of the animation work within the mod Infinity Animations.

Keep in mind that the source art assets were lost for ALL animations in the game, which implies the impossibility to re-render any of them at a higher resolution. Whatever animations are used, they'll look bad when zoomed in from high resolutions. What @TrentOster referred to on Twitter is the area art for the new quests. He explicitly stated in another tweet that they are limited to the existing animations so there won't be new ones.

Tanthalas

Merged these two threads since they're similar.

Older one keeps title but I moved it from General to Feature Requests.

Mornmagor

Cheers

Hey AndreaColombo,

i agree with you, plus, i understand the source of the art has been lost and thus they are somewhat limited.

And that brings the next question : If they are so limited, what are we enhancing actually? If i want new npcs and quests, i can install some mods, BG is a GIANT, it arguably heavily influenced the RPG genre, so if we are enhancing it, i doubt some tweaks, bug fixing, and new quests will account for an enhancement.

With mods you can have the BG2 engine with BG1 animations, you can import other animations and add tons of new content that i might add is actually of very nice quality in certain cases.

So, all in all, limits or not, i expect something better than the same graphics and sprites, at LEAST for the character models. I suggest they make new ones, even if that means they stall a release. I will eagerly await to see what they will officially say about this subject, but to be honest, i think we're in for a disappointment. They haven't openly said what "exactly" will happen with the graphics for the characters, and we haven't seen a single screen of a new art yet

Tanthalas

@Mornmagor

Well, there are things that mods can't do (yet?). I'm assuming that the whole user interface is being redesigned to work on touch-based devices (but that is also only relevant for the iPad).

Personally, if character animations are out of the realm of possibility, I hope spell effects are something that they can improve.

But in the end, talking about what is an "Enhancement" is just semantics. What we really want is a slew of improvements for the game.

mch202

Trent Oster ‏@TrentOster

"We're building out a clear description of what Enhanced Edition means. Once it all is together and approved, we'll roll it out."

hope it will shed some light soon...

Space_hamster

They'll be bigger though right? That right there will make a difference.

GemHound

I personally like the BG1 character models too. The models for the different races in the inventory are atrocious to me.

AndreaColombo

@GemHound - the inventory pictures of your characters are called "paperdolls" and yes, in BG2 they vied for amongst the most horrible pictures a human's eyes could stand without quite liquefying (I may have exaggerated the point a little to get it across). A separate request for new and improved paperdolls has already been put forth here. The OP refers specifically to character animations (i.e. avatars) :-)

Space_hamster

My understanding is that the number of frames was increased for bg2 avatars.... Yet I agree, the avatars from bg1. We're (and are) still the best.

sarevok57

based on what @Mornmagor said, that is quite true, if we can already play bg 1 with the bg 2 engine and use mods to improve the game and such, then why is it taking countless months to bring out an enhanced version for this game? making a new UI and making it playable on 3 plat forms and making it playable at 1920 res requires half a year to do? i bet 6 amuteur modders in one month could do all that, im guessing they are being very quiet for a reason because they are going to blow our socks away with greatness, i want to have a sense that remaking character models will be something on the to do list, otherwise why did they hire a new artist? he has to be doing something neato, and smuck can copy paste old background scenery to make it look better, and any smuck can make items in the inventory/ inventory page look better, im going to guesstamate that his role is going to make mon-StOrEs and pc's look better and maybe some building improvements; or is what all i am saying just a mere dream and everything is going to be complete doo-doo?

Scooter

I really hope you’re right that the devs are hiding some things under their hats @sarevok57 quite a few people here seem to be getting quite uncomfortable with all these limitations, and though I really don’t want to and still have A LOT of faith in them, I feel I may be listing slightly in that direction as well, come on BGEE!

Mornmagor

Well, since there is some hype about the "remaking" of Baldur's Gate, it is normal that people are expecting quite a bit. I certainly hope they take the time needed to make new character models along with the UI changes and the other tweaks they are making. Especially since the BG2 engine (although they are not using it exactly as it was), featured worse models and animations for PCs than BG1.

@sarevok57 , i certainly hope that is true, the fact we haven't seen any screenies yet is both promising and disheartening as well, it could mean that they have nothing new to show, or that they are waiting for something big. I also believe that the new artist they hired should do new models/skins for the avatars, i can't believe he's just doing concept art or whatever. Or at least, i want to believe that.

We can only hope, but i can't help but "fear" that this hype for "BG overhauled" will eventually lead to disappointment. They are taking too much time with the UI, although even at 1920x1080 with the widescreen mod i didn't have problems with it, even with small fonts. And the whole absence of comments regarding what they are doing with the character graphics in general leaves me with a feeling that it's not in their priorities, although past games that were remade ( MDK2DH , Monkey Island Series), were graphically enhanced and it showed. I wish we can get something like Monkey Island remakes, they stayed true to the art, but looked beyond awesome.

Cheers.

ElectricMonk

People seem to be expecting a bit too much. This isn't a "remaking" of Baldur's Gate, it is an enhanced edition. Yes, there are a lot of things that we can do with our current games via mods, but applying the things that some of these mods have done to an actual release of the game IS enhancing it. For starters, they had to make changes to the infinity engine itself, and then they had to go through who knows how many bugs trying to fix each one, which I'm sure takes some time, they can't just install the G3 fixpack, they need to fix many of the bugs within the code. That, along with creating two entirely new, top quality adventures with all new areas, as well as a brand new NPC that has to have all new dialogue written and voice acting done, adding items, taking feature implementations from the community into consideration, all the while keeping everything up to the high standard set by BG's legacy and having to gain approval from a number of parties with vested interests for any major changes, and you think they've had too much time... I definitely disagree. For those of you expecting an entire remake of a game, that's not what this is, and they definitely wouldn't be charging so little or taking so little time to make it if it was.

I love Baldur's Gate, and I understand the limitations, and I'd be more than happy if all that was "enhanced" is that the bugs got fixed and I could enjoy the Enhanced Edition at higher resolutions/different aspect ratios. Apart from wanting this Enhanced Edition because of how much I like Baldur's Gate, I want this team to do well because they are a team of devs that are specifically committed to making great new party-based isometric RPGs once they're done with their enhancing work.