2) Does this mean new armor variations too? I mean, if it's not possible to just reskin but need to remodel for that too it's out as well. But i would like to know if it's possible to just make some new armor by reskinning or something of the sort.
3) BG1 animations are out too i guess since it would need animating for the missing DW animations.
Is there anything i left out from this thread?
If i was aggressive i apologise, however, my point was not to start flames.
Btw, you said, characters wouldn't be too bad. Based on that, does this mean, that just some reskins without re-animating anything, for the character equipment is possible( aka number 2 is possible )? Since that would not affect any monsters or creatures that don't equip anything.
@Coriander i didnt mean have the chocolate milk mixed with the subway, i meant a sandwich for each meal of the day and the chocolate milk to drink from for the whole day
@Mornmagor Perhaps you dont understand that there are no models in the BG games at all. Those are just animations. And there is nothing to reskin, heh. In order to make changes to existing animations, the animations themselves need to be changed.
So the answer is apparently 'no' to 1, 2, 3 of your list... sorry. But you or someone can make a mod to do what you are suggesting!!!! As for the 'paperdolls' and inventory... sure, that is totally doable. But methinks they have their hands full atm with other matters. That is also something you could mod changes yourself.
@Cuv so wait, please help me understand a bit. The sprites are the result of a 3D model rendered into 2D ok? This 3D model was armored and so the sprite looks armored as well? They basically made tons of 3D models to be rendered in 2D in each equipment part?
I thought the 3D models represented the "skeletons" with animations and then they somehow painted the equipment and "skin" over them.
They can't even put new armor models then since the "armor" is just part of an animation of a 3D model rendered into a sprite?
Oh god /facepalm
This leaves only the chance of having them use the BG1 animations, but without a dual wielding support, fat chance of that...
I don't remember anyone asking them to do monster animations though, only characters, and Trent said character would be "ok".
Very disheartening to see that this is a dead end...
@Cuv so wait, please help me understand a bit. The sprites are the result of a 3D model rendered into 2D ok? This 3D model was armored and so the sprite looks armored as well? They basically made tons of 3D models to be rendered in 2D in each equipment part?
Okay, there are no models whatsoever! There was never any 3D rendering. All the artwork for the animations was hand painted and resized. You must be thinking of NWN or later 3D games. 3D rendering didnt exist in 1998 apart from some very high tech graphical and architectural design programs.
I don't remember anyone asking them to do monster animations though, only characters, and Trent said character would be "ok".
Very disheartening to see that this is a dead end...
Well, as I said; it may not be a total dead end. We will just have to wait and see on the paperdoll front. The character sheet representation of your character and armour may indeed get an upgrade... but like Trent said, that will most likely be after release as an update perhaps. Just try to be patient! I know you are excited, so am I.
Well, as I said; it may not be a total dead end. We will just have to wait and see on the paperdoll front. The character sheet representation of your character and armour may indeed get an upgrade... but like Trent said, that will most likely be after release as an update perhaps. Just try to be patient! I know you are excited, so am I.
Yeah we will wait patiently that's the only thing to do.
By the way, i don't care much about paperdolls, i was only referring to the actual sprites in game.
Pretty weird though, if it is only hand-drawn i would expect it to be much easier to make new armors in game, at least for characters, thought repainting should work too.
@Cuv - you got me there. I was totally under the assumption that all animations in Baldur's Gate had been modelled in 3D and subsequently rendered in 2D - what with BioWare having a full squad of modelling artists (among whom our very own Trent Oster) back in the day.
So far as I remember... it was all hand painted. But that was soooo long ago and the Black Isle boards long gone so cant double check that. Like the area art was all hand rendered. Maya and 3ds were around, but didnt have the sophistication to actually render textures and lighting well enough to be useable as such. I believe that the Demogorgon ToB creature may have been 3D rendered and then converted... but dont quote me on that. No way to verify unless @TrentOster wants to comment.
Also: "For all these reasons, and more, the award-winning game developer, which is based in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, has been relying on 3ds Max software since the mid-1990s, when it was working on its hit games Shattered Steel and Baldur’s Gate" http://south-apac.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=1157326&id=6021572
EDIT: But that doesn't really make any difference since all assets were apparently lost. So what they have right now is exactly what you get on the game CDs plus source codes.
And you can still make any kind of graphic and add it to the game if you have the source code, but hand drawn or 3D into 2D, since they can't make these "new" graphics, the only option is to use BG1 models which is again difficult due to missing animations.
Hence my question as a last stand before the fortress falls, would it be possible for them to somehow implement more armor appearances in the game( the sprites i mean), without touching animations and stuff?
Since i can't see anything else that can be implemented at this point.
All characters and creatures in BG were 3d models. Many were created in Lightwave, but all were rendered out in 3DSmax. The render was partially automated and generated a contact sheet which some poor bastard had to go through and make into a .BAM. Bioware lost all the 3D models, so we cannot re-render the art. For us to redo the characters or armor or monsters (or anything that animates) we would have to re-create the models, re-texture them, build an automated render process and then cut the renders up and .bam them. As we'd radically change the look by all the re-work it would conflict with any existing content we did not replace. As such, it is pretty much an all or nothing job. Creating the content the first time around was around 15 man years. We could do it faster, but it would still be pretty heavy in terms of effort. For our next major project (BG3 if it can happen) we'll likely engineer a new solution.
If I had the skill and technical know-how, I would totally undertake a personal quest to re-create the models and re-texture them. My pro-BG1 animations / against-BG2 animations attitude is that deeply rooted.
It has been a while since I have played BG or BG II. Does anyone have a link to both games animations? I remember really disliking the paper dolls in BG II. As far as the animations in the sequel, I remember them not being as strong as BG (I really hated the shields), but they were fine.
I do remember the BG II animations being dark and lacking color. Will the be able to add color to the characters? Maybe by way of more colorfull armor and shields? Or is the color locked with the models?
If they keep the BG GUI and paper dolls, I believe the BGII character animations will blend in fine.
@unfortunate_one - I have no comparison screenshot for BG1 vs BG2 character models (I should definitely get myself to make one), but if you browse the BG1 and BG2 screenshots on Planet Baldur's Gate, you'll see the difference :-)
BG1 animations are bigger - I once played EasyTutu with Infinity Animations, which restored BG1 animations for all characters that did not have proficiency points in two weapon fighting style. Minsc looked like CHARNAME's son. The shields and helms looked significantly better on BG1 animations. Above all, BG1 animations are headed, whereas BG2 animations are mirrored (how's that for a huge step backward from the tech stand point?).
I think you can do whatever you want with the colour, there was a mod that changed armor colour as well.
I guess they can use external means to enhance the colours and remove the pixelation from the BG2 models, if that's what they're using that is.
Seriously, Bioware needs to pay for what they did
If I had the skill and technical know-how, I would totally undertake a personal quest to re-create the models and re-texture them. My pro-BG1 animations / against-BG2 animations attitude is that deeply rooted.
If I had the skill and technical know-how, I would totally undertake a personal quest to re-create the models and re-texture them. My pro-BG1 animations / against-BG2 animations attitude is that deeply rooted.
I would seriously do it as well if i knew how to
Let's form a team ! è_é
More seriously, it's a shame but It can't happen for BGEE. If you want to process that for every one of each monsters, armor, weapons... Hell that's a lota work ! Only way to work that out is making that automatic. And making the process automatic is probably computationnally challenging. Though I'd say that if we already know the input, the desired output and more or less the different stages, it's easier to do then the initial team. I love reverse engineering ! (Trust me, I'm an engineer)
However, since BeamDog ultimately wants to do their own isometric game using similar engines, they are bound to take this 15 man-year problem properly. Probably once they make it big and recruit some zombies with high informatic knowledge
do you know what they should do at least, let us have the pretty col-LORs for our clothing choices, thats pretty much the only reason why i have the keepers, so i can look styling and such, they should at least give us that as an option
Btw they still haven't "officially" said they're using the BG2 models right? Or they did?
Although, i have no idea how they would deal with the missing DW animations. Maybe put the BG1 models and upscale them as well for optional use for those who prefer them? Would be nice ^^
Comments
Is has to be the BG2 models since the BG1 do not have dual-wielding animations.
But let's leave animations.
2) Does this mean new armor variations too? I mean, if it's not possible to just reskin but need to remodel for that too it's out as well. But i would like to know if it's possible to just make some new armor by reskinning or something of the sort.
3) BG1 animations are out too i guess since it would need animating for the missing DW animations.
Is there anything i left out from this thread?
If i was aggressive i apologise, however, my point was not to start flames.
Btw, you said, characters wouldn't be too bad. Based on that, does this mean, that just some reskins without re-animating anything, for the character equipment is possible( aka number 2 is possible )? Since that would not affect any monsters or creatures that don't equip anything.
So the answer is apparently 'no' to 1, 2, 3 of your list... sorry. But you or someone can make a mod to do what you are suggesting!!!! As for the 'paperdolls' and inventory... sure, that is totally doable. But methinks they have their hands full atm with other matters. That is also something you could mod changes yourself.
This 3D model was armored and so the sprite looks armored as well? They basically made tons of 3D models to be rendered in 2D in each equipment part?
I thought the 3D models represented the "skeletons" with animations and then they somehow painted the equipment and "skin" over them.
They can't even put new armor models then since the "armor" is just part of an animation of a 3D model rendered into a sprite?
Oh god /facepalm
This leaves only the chance of having them use the BG1 animations, but without a dual wielding support, fat chance of that...
I don't remember anyone asking them to do monster animations though, only characters, and Trent said character would be "ok".
Very disheartening to see that this is a dead end...
By the way, i don't care much about paperdolls, i was only referring to the actual sprites in game.
Pretty weird though, if it is only hand-drawn i would expect it to be much easier to make new armors in game, at least for characters, thought repainting should work too.
Oh well.
3dsmax was released 1996: http://area.autodesk.com/maxturns20/history
Also:
"For all these reasons, and more, the award-winning game developer, which is based in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, has been relying on 3ds Max software since the mid-1990s, when it was working on its hit games Shattered Steel and Baldur’s Gate" http://south-apac.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=1157326&id=6021572
EDIT: But that doesn't really make any difference since all assets were apparently lost. So what they have right now is exactly what you get on the game CDs plus source codes.
Hence my question as a last stand before the fortress falls, would it be possible for them to somehow implement more armor appearances in the game( the sprites i mean), without touching animations and stuff?
Since i can't see anything else that can be implemented at this point.
For our next major project (BG3 if it can happen) we'll likely engineer a new solution.
-Trent
I do remember the BG II animations being dark and lacking color. Will the be able to add color to the characters?
Maybe by way of more colorfull armor and shields? Or is the color locked with the models?
If they keep the BG GUI and paper dolls, I believe the BGII character animations will blend in fine.
BG1 animations are bigger - I once played EasyTutu with Infinity Animations, which restored BG1 animations for all characters that did not have proficiency points in two weapon fighting style. Minsc looked like CHARNAME's son. The shields and helms looked significantly better on BG1 animations. Above all, BG1 animations are headed, whereas BG2 animations are mirrored (how's that for a huge step backward from the tech stand point?).
I guess they can use external means to enhance the colours and remove the pixelation from the BG2 models, if that's what they're using that is.
Seriously, Bioware needs to pay for what they did
More seriously, it's a shame but It can't happen for BGEE. If you want to process that for every one of each monsters, armor, weapons... Hell that's a lota work ! Only way to work that out is making that automatic. And making the process automatic is probably computationnally challenging. Though I'd say that if we already know the input, the desired output and more or less the different stages, it's easier to do then the initial team. I love reverse engineering ! (Trust me, I'm an engineer)
However, since BeamDog ultimately wants to do their own isometric game using similar engines, they are bound to take this 15 man-year problem properly. Probably once they make it big and recruit some zombies with high informatic knowledge
Although, i have no idea how they would deal with the missing DW animations. Maybe put the BG1 models and upscale them as well for optional use for those who prefer them? Would be nice ^^
Dunno though /shrug
-Trent