Hiring a 3D modeller is more expensive than buying 1 or more iMacs and using resources to port the game to iPads and Macs? If it is of the same caliber as the Ferrari and 10 sents, i apologise.
Its probably not the same calibre, but I can easily see it being a lot more expensive.
I wouldn't know honestly, but it depends on who you hire as well. However working on 3 platforms at the same time i imagine is time and money consuming as well.
Anyway, see the previous post, we can agree to disagree.
By the way, do you think the thread name gives justice to what we say inside? This "BG1 and 2 Animitions" does not declare in any way on the title we are asking for new character graphics exactly. But oh well :P
Baldur's Gate Original Saga:.$9.99 (current gog.com price)+ new user dealing with mods to adapt it for modern hardware support. For Windows Only. Also have to purchase BG2 as well if they want to play BG1 using BG2 ruleset.
Badur's Gate Enhanced Edition: $10 all ready for a simple installation with modern hardware support. For Windows, Mac OS and Ipad. And already contains BG2 ruleset.
That's already good reasons for BGEE existence just for potential new Baldur's Gate players.
For existing players that already own BG+BG2 and are comfortable with mods, the interest will depend on what new elements the BGEE brings out that have not been already done by mods. Since there is not much information about that yet I'm not gonna comment on that aspect.
@Elys you're probably doing the best thing, see how the final product is and THEN decide what to do.
I have decided i will support Overhaul with this project even if i don't like the end result, aka they don't improve character graphics, which would leave me to continue to play my modded version with the BG1 avatars.
The reasoning is everyone deserves a chance, especially someone who tries to "enhance" something like Baldur's Gate that we all love.
However it has consequences. I will fully support BG1 remake, but if i don't like the product, and they don't improve for BG2:EE, my "support" ends there democratically.
P.S. "And already contains BG2 ruleset." <- That is actually the problem. The ruleset of BG2 comes with its character graphics which are FAIL :P
It's probably best to just wait and see what happens and what makes it in as @NWN_babaYaga says, I am just gonna be patient. It's a whole new frontier of BG playing! My opinion. The devs have my full support:)
Yeah i am gonna be patient as well ( for now ), i'm gonna wait and see what they actually put in the game, although i admit, my expectations are tremendously low after "uncoding" their intentions, but maybe ( big maybe ) things can change.
But let's get one thing straight. I won't whine about bad npcs, or bad rules,or not "engaging" music, or bugs, or bad UI or about anything except one thing.
Character graphics, not even area graphics.
If you don't make new character models ( or even skinned repaints), or find a way to implement BG1 models( properly "prettied" for high resolutions), be prepared to face Edwin level whining, and i believe i will have the right THEN to whine, about something as basic as that.
@Mornmagor sorry when i say it but you whine the whole time about character models and you mentions it to no end. And I´m sure they must know it by now if they arent blind!
@NWN_babaYaga if we still have freedom of speech, and if my "whining" annoys you, you also have the freedom of choice to ignore my posts.
That is your opinion, and you have a right to it.
It is still my right to disagree about certain "directions" of this "enhancing", and if that's called whining, so be it. If i don't voice what i want who's gonna do it for me? You?
I get to play the game in the end, i get to pay it as well. If i don't like it i have 2 options :
1) Don't bother with it or
2) Do bother and try to explain what you consider should happen, even if you get labeled a whiner. At least from this whiner you'll hear arguments.
And I´m sure they must know it by now if they arent blind!
I've suggested before that they replace the sprites with real-time rendered models (but keep the isometric backgrounds). To quote what I wrote on the beamdog forum "They'd look just as realistic, and they'd be able to turn a true 360 degrees, and they'd occupy less disk space and there would be more flexibility on what the devs (and modders) could do with them. ". Either way though they would still have to pony up the resources to remodel everything.
I do wonder why they can model entirely new maps (as they've mentioned that they are doing) but can't spare anything for character models. Are they that much harder to do? I thought they could get hold of some stock humanoid model from the public domain and go from there. It's not like the old sprites had a lot of detail to them, so it isn't hard to make an improvement on them either. Maybe someone more in the know can tell me how long it would take to make a convincing replica model of the old human sprite from BG1? I don't see it taking long myself, but I don't know enough about the field to know for sure.
Maybe someone more in the know can tell me how long it would take to make a convincing replica model of the old human sprite from BG1? I don't see it taking long myself, but I don't know enough about the field to know for sure.
Depends on who's doing it, and how many people are involved with the project, also with what method he's creating the model. There are games that use 3D models and render them in 2D afterwards or something like that (like BG) but there are newer games that have completely hand drawn animations and skins for 2D which i guess is easier, with some impressive results imo.
It does take time and resources i guess, but i believe for character models it's something basic, something that you start with. I guess they can find some ways to create new models cheaper, they are resourceful people. I do hope that they will be improving upon the original BG1 models though, BG2 had considerably worse, as we said 10 times already, or even more.
Another option i guess would be to implement new models for characters as DLC?
I agree with Mornmagor that BGEE is a disappointment for anyone who was expecting any level of graphical enhancement (FYI upscaling is not a graphical enhancement, technically it loses information). I went so far as to hope for a brand new remake in a 3D engine with a full re-model, re-texture, re-lightened world with DX11 shaders. It could have been this, if it wasn't for WTF-Bioware losing all the source art. Anyway, Beamdog is working with very limited resources and highly limiting legal constraints, from what we can gather, so here's the value they're putting out:
- A polished version of the Baldur's Gate Saga that "just works" on all modern hardware - Public exposure for the best RPG of all time, creating demand for more of the same - A significant amount of professional-grade new content, developed by original BG staff - A completely reworked UI that'll certainly make the game more accessible to newcomers and more enjoyable to everyone
Considering Baldur's Gate is a 14 year-old game whose developer was acquired by EA and has no intention of developing anything similar (DA:O notwithstanding), those are still very unexpected and exciting news.
I'm mainly glad that there are professionals working on reviving the isometric party-based style of RPGs, that these guys are those who brought us Baldur's Gate no less, and I'm hoping for more ambitious projects in the future. Icewind Dale 3 anyone?
I do think it is a disappointment in that aspect, unless i see otherwise from the things i mentioned of course. No need for 3D for me, just new character art or use the BG1 models and animations.
Other than that, Trent said that BG3 and future RPGs will be dependant on how BG:EE and BG2:EE will fair.
However i don't really care about BG3 for now, that's long in the future, i'm focusing on these 2 games we're having sooner or later, and how awesome they can make them. If they are used just as stepping stones for BG3 or being able to produce better products, then i don't see them going well. You have to invest in something to expect results. People won't buy because it's "BG" especially if it's "the same BG practically".
It would be awesome to relive the experience of BG with better art, though not necessarily completely different ( aka not completely overhauled - HD).
We voice these opinions because we care ( although whining and raging occasionally makes you feel much better ) Edwin speech /off.
Depends on who's doing it, and how many people are involved with the project, also with what method he's creating the model. There are games that use 3D models and render them in 2D afterwards or something like that (like BG) but there are newer games that have completely hand drawn animations and skins for 2D which i guess is easier, with some impressive results imo.
The latter wouldn't be applicable to my suggestion of real-time rendered 3d models, though.
Depends on who's doing it, and how many people are involved with the project, also with what method he's creating the model. There are games that use 3D models and render them in 2D afterwards or something like that (like BG) but there are newer games that have completely hand drawn animations and skins for 2D which i guess is easier, with some impressive results imo.
The latter wouldn't be applicable to my suggestion of real-time rendered 3d models, though.
True, well, let me clarify that i would like the option as well. My thoughts on the options are :
1) Your suggestion is option one. RTR 3D models. People say they are a small company and don't have the manpower and resources to pull it off, or something like that. Basically, i guess if they have enough people to do the job, they could do it fast enough.
Well, if you can't do a HD remake you have to do something. When you're touching Baldur's Gate and enhancing it so you can get paid, you make sure you can do stuff like that. And if you're such a "small" company that can't render models as you suggested they could do, well, i don't like it, but we're going to option 2 (see below).
2) Since they can't use your suggestion the alternative is to create somehow new models in 2D. Be it through DLC or not, If they can't do that either well the plot thickens. And gets more depressing as well. Going to option 3 below though.
3) If they can't create new models at all, the least they can do is somehow alter the BG2 existing ones with tweaks that actually touch the art, or implement the BG1 ones and upscale - re-render whatever from there.
So, you suggest number 1, i guess they said it's the most impossible to do (?), wish they can pull something off. For the record i suggested a mix of options 2+3 together, meaning tweaking the models so they look different and more to today's standards to match the backrounds in quality, that means two things, not being pixelated nightmares, and having a somewhat new look even if only equipment-wise. Yeah you don't have to make actually new ones, there are other acceptable solutions.
I'm afraid their priorities are elsewhere, though, as we have discussed already. If they're porting things to other platforms and making UIs - Multiplayer and platform supports, fat chance of seeing any of the 3 suggestions, with number 3 having the most chances however i guess.
Edit : Something like this is what i was hoping for actually when i say new models, not some super high-definition.
This is Knights of the Round, a game for Arcades designed by Capcom in 1992(!). See the character, Arthur, in armor. You see him? Now look at BG. That's right, a 1992 hand drawn game does it better than anything else i've seen so far in armors and more.
that guy and every other sprite has a max. of 3/4 frames for each animation. Looks like robocop! And for the colors... around 16/24 including red/yellow and black.
Yeah it shows that you don't need super 3D machines to build good art. If people in 1992 could do it like that for the age... you get the picture
@NWN_babaYaga oh come on it still looks nice even today, it doesn't feel subpar when i compare it with BG animations, although this was designed only for horizontal movement.
I used that example for armors and what hand drawn graphics could achieve.
@sarevok57 this game was out for SNES as well, i don't remember if it was named Knights of the Round or something else, at least when it hit Europe or USA, maybe it's the same game you remember.
So, you suggest number 1, i guess they said it's the most impossible to do (?), wish they can pull something off.
I'm pretty sure that they've never commented on the idea.
Yeah my bad, i meant everyone else in the forums says it's impossible, they haven't said anything themselves. My estimate that it's hard, is based on an interview in Kotaku where Tofer said that " They'll have higher resolutions and full-screen modes, as well as "working" multi-player, but they won't look too different from their original incarnations in 1998 and 2000 "
The key word is TOO. Not too different for starters means they will appear somewhat different, but if anything, the art style will remain so we recognise Baldur's Gate. Now, not too different also means that either they will change a few things, like character models although not excessively, or that they are not changing anything actually and just upscaling/putting bloom, aka not changing anything (although some people think it makes a big difference somehow, forgetting that you need to actually upscale anyway to port to iPads).
We can only wait and see the final product, and judge then. It is interesting though, that we haven't seen a single screenshot of the actual graphical enchancement, whatever that may be. This means probably that they haven't decided how far they will go with it, or in the worst case that it's not happening.
One other idea i had (although i'm sure i'm not the only one), in case implementing new models is impossible for any reason in general, is to make some new armor variations at least for the existing models through repaints of the original sprites, without touching the animations, or in general, in whatever way more armor models (especially full plate ones! :P). Would that be possible?
It's the best of two worlds i guess since you both give the characters a "new" look, but without so much work like animating new 3D models would take.
You also would not need to make them into high definition, just standard one.
P.S. @Tanthalas I wrote the idea here without creating a new thread, since it's basically the same thing, altering character graphics one way or the other.
We're not redoing the characters as Bioware lost all the source assets. Redoing characters would require re-modeling, texturing and animating all creatures in the game. While the characters wouldn't be too bad, redoing all the monsters and re-animating all the movements, attacks, deaths, would be a major undertaking. We decided against reworking the character and monster art once we did the math and it worked out to multiple person-years of work. We're a small team operating without external funding (the only way to get this project done). So, we need to make hard choices to take the title to completion.
@Mornmagor, while this is a forum where we encourage people to express opinions, the more aggressive you are, the less people listen to your feedback. Stating opinion is fine, but I advise toning it down a bit.
@TrentOster you should hire people like me that can work 16 hours a day and 7 days a week, with 4 litres of chocolate milk and 3 subway sandwiches a day
Comments
Anyway, see the previous post, we can agree to disagree.
By the way, do you think the thread name gives justice to what we say inside? This "BG1 and 2 Animitions" does not declare in any way on the title we are asking for new character graphics exactly. But oh well :P
Baldur's Gate Original Saga:.$9.99 (current gog.com price)+ new user dealing with mods to adapt it for modern hardware support. For Windows Only.
Also have to purchase BG2 as well if they want to play BG1 using BG2 ruleset.
Badur's Gate Enhanced Edition: $10 all ready for a simple installation with modern hardware support. For Windows, Mac OS and Ipad. And already contains BG2 ruleset.
That's already good reasons for BGEE existence just for potential new Baldur's Gate players.
For existing players that already own BG+BG2 and are comfortable with mods, the interest will depend on what new elements the BGEE brings out that have not been already done by mods. Since there is not much information about that yet I'm not gonna comment on that aspect.
I have decided i will support Overhaul with this project even if i don't like the end result, aka they don't improve character graphics, which would leave me to continue to play my modded version with the BG1 avatars.
The reasoning is everyone deserves a chance, especially someone who tries to "enhance" something like Baldur's Gate that we all love.
However it has consequences. I will fully support BG1 remake, but if i don't like the product, and they don't improve for BG2:EE, my "support" ends there democratically.
P.S. "And already contains BG2 ruleset." <- That is actually the problem. The ruleset of BG2 comes with its character graphics which are FAIL :P
Yeah i am gonna be patient as well ( for now ), i'm gonna wait and see what they actually put in the game, although i admit, my expectations are tremendously low after "uncoding" their intentions, but maybe ( big maybe ) things can change.
But let's get one thing straight. I won't whine about bad npcs, or bad rules,or not "engaging" music, or bugs, or bad UI or about anything except one thing.
Character graphics, not even area graphics.
If you don't make new character models ( or even skinned repaints), or find a way to implement BG1 models( properly "prettied" for high resolutions), be prepared to face Edwin level whining, and i believe i will have the right THEN to whine, about something as basic as that.
That is your opinion, and you have a right to it.
It is still my right to disagree about certain "directions" of this "enhancing", and if that's called whining, so be it. If i don't voice what i want who's gonna do it for me? You?
I get to play the game in the end, i get to pay it as well. If i don't like it i have 2 options :
1) Don't bother with it or
2) Do bother and try to explain what you consider should happen, even if you get labeled a whiner. At least from this whiner you'll hear arguments. There is no way for me to know that.
I do wonder why they can model entirely new maps (as they've mentioned that they are doing) but can't spare anything for character models. Are they that much harder to do? I thought they could get hold of some stock humanoid model from the public domain and go from there. It's not like the old sprites had a lot of detail to them, so it isn't hard to make an improvement on them either. Maybe someone more in the know can tell me how long it would take to make a convincing replica model of the old human sprite from BG1? I don't see it taking long myself, but I don't know enough about the field to know for sure.
It does take time and resources i guess, but i believe for character models it's something basic, something that you start with. I guess they can find some ways to create new models cheaper, they are resourceful people. I do hope that they will be improving upon the original BG1 models though, BG2 had considerably worse, as we said 10 times already, or even more.
Another option i guess would be to implement new models for characters as DLC?
- A polished version of the Baldur's Gate Saga that "just works" on all modern hardware
- Public exposure for the best RPG of all time, creating demand for more of the same
- A significant amount of professional-grade new content, developed by original BG staff
- A completely reworked UI that'll certainly make the game more accessible to newcomers and more enjoyable to everyone
Considering Baldur's Gate is a 14 year-old game whose developer was acquired by EA and has no intention of developing anything similar (DA:O notwithstanding), those are still very unexpected and exciting news.
I'm mainly glad that there are professionals working on reviving the isometric party-based style of RPGs, that these guys are those who brought us Baldur's Gate no less, and I'm hoping for more ambitious projects in the future. Icewind Dale 3 anyone?
Other than that, Trent said that BG3 and future RPGs will be dependant on how BG:EE and BG2:EE will fair.
However i don't really care about BG3 for now, that's long in the future, i'm focusing on these 2 games we're having sooner or later, and how awesome they can make them. If they are used just as stepping stones for BG3 or being able to produce better products, then i don't see them going well. You have to invest in something to expect results. People won't buy because it's "BG" especially if it's "the same BG practically".
It would be awesome to relive the experience of BG with better art, though not necessarily completely different ( aka not completely overhauled - HD).
We voice these opinions because we care ( although whining and raging occasionally makes you feel much better ) Edwin speech /off.
1) Your suggestion is option one. RTR 3D models. People say they are a small company and don't have the manpower and resources to pull it off, or something like that. Basically, i guess if they have enough people to do the job, they could do it fast enough.
Well, if you can't do a HD remake you have to do something. When you're touching Baldur's Gate and enhancing it so you can get paid, you make sure you can do stuff like that. And if you're such a "small" company that can't render models as you suggested they could do, well, i don't like it, but we're going to option 2 (see below).
2) Since they can't use your suggestion the alternative is to create somehow new models in 2D. Be it through DLC or not, If they can't do that either well the plot thickens. And gets more depressing as well. Going to option 3 below though.
3) If they can't create new models at all, the least they can do is somehow alter the BG2 existing ones with tweaks that actually touch the art, or implement the BG1 ones and upscale - re-render whatever from there.
So, you suggest number 1, i guess they said it's the most impossible to do (?), wish they can pull something off. For the record i suggested a mix of options 2+3 together, meaning tweaking the models so they look different and more to today's standards to match the backrounds in quality, that means two things, not being pixelated nightmares, and having a somewhat new look even if only equipment-wise. Yeah you don't have to make actually new ones, there are other acceptable solutions.
I'm afraid their priorities are elsewhere, though, as we have discussed already. If they're porting things to other platforms and making UIs - Multiplayer and platform supports, fat chance of seeing any of the 3 suggestions, with number 3 having the most chances however i guess.
Edit : Something like this is what i was hoping for actually when i say new models, not some super high-definition.
This is Knights of the Round, a game for Arcades designed by Capcom in 1992(!). See the character, Arthur, in armor. You see him? Now look at BG. That's right, a 1992 hand drawn game does it better than anything else i've seen so far in armors and more.
@NWN_babaYaga oh come on
I used that example for armors and what hand drawn graphics could achieve.
@sarevok57 this game was out for SNES as well, i don't remember if it was named Knights of the Round or something else, at least when it hit Europe or USA, maybe it's the same game you remember.
Anyway, gief Arthur-like armor /drool
The key word is TOO. Not too different for starters means they will appear somewhat different, but if anything, the art style will remain so we recognise Baldur's Gate. Now, not too different also means that either they will change a few things, like character models although not excessively, or that they are not changing anything actually and just upscaling/putting bloom, aka not changing anything (although some people think it makes a big difference somehow, forgetting that you need to actually upscale anyway to port to iPads).
We can only wait and see the final product, and judge then. It is interesting though, that we haven't seen a single screenshot of the actual graphical enchancement, whatever that may be. This means probably that they haven't decided how far they will go with it, or in the worst case that it's not happening.
It's the best of two worlds i guess since you both give the characters a "new" look, but without so much work like animating new 3D models would take.
You also would not need to make them into high definition, just standard one.
P.S. @Tanthalas I wrote the idea here without creating a new thread, since it's basically the same thing, altering character graphics one way or the other.
@Mornmagor, while this is a forum where we encourage people to express opinions, the more aggressive you are, the less people listen to your feedback. Stating opinion is fine, but I advise toning it down a bit.
-Trent