Baldur’s Gate: Enhanced Edition™ and Baldur’s Gate II: Enhanced Edition™ will feature a re-forged version of the Infinity Engine with a variety of modern improvements.
Re-forged engine. Check.
I am expecting too much when i expect that the graphics of the characters(i didn't speak about all the graphics) will be remade so they don't look pixelated in higher resolutions ? Resolutions they are making sure that the game supports with the new engine.
No, i don't think so. I expect the game to look a bit nicer, at least my character, since i have played countless hours, mods, there is nothing possibly more to look forward to than re-experience all this with just my character having a bit nicer animations or at least having a better skin(model for 2D).
If i'm expecting too much because of this, i don't know what to say. I expected that a graphical upgrade of this sort was a given and we would not need to discuss it or ask for it, when you enhance a game from 12+ years ago.
I am expecting too much when i expect that the graphics of the characters(i didn't speak about all the graphics) will be remade so they don't look pixelated in higher resolutions ? Resolutions they are making sure that the game supports with the new engine.
No, i don't think so. I expect the game to look a bit nicer, at least my character, since i have played countless hours, mods, there is nothing possibly more to look forward to than re-experience all this with just my character having a bit nicer animations or at least having a better skin(model for 2D).
If i'm expecting too much because of this, i don't know what to say. I expected that a graphical upgrade of this sort was a given and we would not need to discuss it or ask for it, when you enhance a game from 12+ years ago.
@Mornmagor If this was in response to my post, well, I wasn't addressing you specifically as asking for too much, but in a way yes, I think there are certain limitations we have to accept in that the dev team simply doesn't have the authority to do some things. If they are literally not allowed (as seems to be the case) due to original art being lost and those holding the rights to Baldur's Gate saying that they can't create new ones from scratch, then that's something I can live with. If the things that they actually can't do are deal-breakers for someone then I guess that person just won't end up buying the game. I know they technically can change original content via getting approval from all the parties that hold rights to BG, but from what I can tell this is something that they couldn't get approval for...
Would I pay ten or twenty bucks for a polished version of Baldur's Gate with TotSC with all the bugs fixed, a couple of new characters and quests, and some general engine and graphical improvements (support for many aspect ratios, etc.)? Yes, I would. It would be nice to see everything that could be fixed, fixed. And it would be nice for ALL the aspects of the game to have some graphical improvements (avatars, paperdolls, etc), but as for me that not happening won't prevent me from buying this game. Just my opinion.
Would I pay ten or twenty bucks for a polished version of Baldur's Gate with TotSC with all the bugs fixed, a couple of new characters and quests, and some general engine and graphical improvements (support for many aspect ratios, etc.)? Yes, I would. It would be nice to see everything that could be fixed, fixed. And it would be nice for ALL the aspects of the game to have some graphical improvements (avatars, paperdolls, etc), but as for me that not happening won't prevent me from buying this game. Just my opinion.
It won't stop me from byuing the game either.
It will just be a disappointment, since this "enhancing" or whatever it will be exactly, could become something truly epic. Besides, we are not asking for a complete graphical overhaul.
As for the licencing to change stuff, i believe Trent has said that they can change anything as long as they don't touch the story and the rules. The graphical enhancements would be under reforging the engine, which they did.
Trent: "Our initial proposal was to build an HD version of Baldur's Gate until we discovered Bioware had lost almost all of the source art and as such an HD version was impossible. We were devastated. But we picked ourselves up and re-scoped around the idea of "enhancing" the existing version with new features and new content while bringing it to new platforms."
So, does this mean that we are using the same graphics or, even though it won't be to the extent of HD, will still make new art for some area and the character models too, still in 2D?
Anyway, if it's impossible to enhance the graphics, Trent can you please at least let us keep the BG1 models and animations? If we were able to find out more about what they are doing with the "new character graphics" part i would be a happy panda.
On a side note, if the art was lost, can't they just create new avatars for the characters? Update the skin and nothing more, since it's 2D.
@Mornmagor - IIRC, after porting the whole graphic engine to OpenGL they were looking at upscaling algorithms to improve the existing art as much as humanely possible. Last time Trent said something about this, they hadn't found a suitable algorithm yet, in terms of cost vs end result. Hopefully, they have or will.
As for the sprites, I doubt they'd have the time to create new ones (the whole process is exceedingly time consuming, and probably requires more personnel than Beamdog can currently count on). They could give us the original BG1 character animations by default, but then everyone would have to give up on dual-wielding since those avatars aren't dual-wielding capable (even if they removed the game crash that occurs when you equip them with off-hand weapons as per my request, the avatars still wouldn't attack with two weapons and would look weird). The vast majority of the players would therefore be weirded out and ticked off without knowing the reason (keep in mind there are users who haven't even noticed the animations are different!).
As I said, if the devs could fix the crash, Infinity Animations could add dual-wielding support to those animations (of course, if the devs could do it themselves it would be most awesome; I just don't see that happening because of how time consuming the task would be).
I seriously hope they can come up with something. This seems like a lose - lose situation.
We can't have upgraded models and we can't have the BG1 ones that looked much cooler?
What the eck
And not only that, we won't even be able to use infinity animations any more, since it is doubtful if it will work, you know, the game engine changing and all.
As for the sprites, I doubt they'd have the time to create new ones (the whole process is exceedingly time consuming, and probably requires more personnel than Beamdog can currently count on).
You know, i seriously doubt that it is THAT time consuming to create new character models. It can take time, but heck, it's 2D, it's doable. They could keep the animations of BG2, fix the mirroring, and just make a new skin with more detail. How are they making new art for the new areas anyway if they couldn't add anything to the game?
The thing is, Trent has said in 2 interviews that they can't do much about character art because the art was lost. Then he said they are using the BG2 engine, and thus, its graphics. Is there any point to read further? I am already disappointed at what i hear. They couldn't do a graphical overhaul so they went with making it for more platforms and adding some content in it, that is why instead of changing the character graphics they change the UI, so it can be usable in highter resolution in ipads... Had a lot of hopes for this but i don't understand how it is anything more than a modded BG1 running with Tutu.
I still can't stomach the idea that Bioware lost the source art... I REALLY thought that even though it won't be HD, new graphics still in 2D at least for characters was a given. I would pay a bit more just for that honestly -.-
You know, i seriously doubt that it is THAT time consuming to create new character models. It can take time, but heck, it's 2D, it's doable. They could keep the animations of BG2, fix the mirroring, and just make a new skin with more detail. How are they making new art for the new areas anyway if they couldn't add anything to the game?
I'm no game developer, but from my point of view, creating a new area (several new areas in fact) is very likely to be a hell of a lot less work than creating new animations. When you draw a new character:
- You have to make a drawing of all possible movement postions (walking, attacking, casting, etc). - You then also have to make drawings for all visible equipment (not only armor, weapons, shields but you also have very different looks for warriors, rogues and spellcasters). - You then have to do this for several races (Human M/F, Elf M/F, Dwarf and Halfling). And if you really wanted to do a great job you'd make new animations for Half-orcs (M/F), female dwarves, M/F Gnomes and female halflings.
It would be a lot of work for just having Human M/F, Elf M/F, Dwarf and Halfling models.
Creating a new area is mostly a static drawing that has different lighting depending on the time of day.
I still can't stomach the idea that Bioware lost the source art... I REALLY thought that even though it won't be HD, new graphics still in 2D at least for characters was a given. I would pay a bit more just for that honestly -.-
Yeah, I'd also pay a lot more for a remake, but BGEE isn't remake, and we need to accept the project for what it is. Overhaul isn't an enormous company so I assume they have to keep their ambitions for BGEE in check to not blow away their budget, but personally I hope that BGEE and BG2EE is successful enough for them to be more ambitious in their future projects.
I'm not saying that making new areas is easy as pie, but I do think that making an area for a game like BG requires dealing with a lot less variables than making a new character model for even just one race.
Yeah, I'd also pay a lot more for a remake, but BGEE isn't remake, and we need to accept the project for what it is. Overhaul isn't an enormous company so I assume they have to keep their ambitions for BGEE in check to not blow away their budget, but personally I hope that BGEE and BG2EE is successful enough for them to be more ambitious in their future projects.
That is my concern though. That old gamers that know Baldur's Gate will have the old game and the mods when they want to play it. New gamers will not look at it because it won't look pretty and the rules are weird for them. None of these 2 categories will feel the need to look at an "Enhanced somewhat" version of BG.
Let's face it, BG:EE is directed at people who know BG and D&D anyway, so it's the first category. I don't see it being THAT succesful if it doesn't bring something new to look at. I've heard it from someone else too and i agree, modders can implement new quests or npcs, but they cannot implement new graphics or character models. If they do things that mods could do, i am afraid that people will stick to the old version anyway. Imagine playing the game again and seeing the differences visually in all the places you visit, and noticing how the characters look now compared to then. It was something i was hoping would happen.
For example, i have BG2 installed and i use the infinity animations, the one that brings BG1 animations and avatars into BG2. I love it absolutely. Why would i want to play the game again with animations i don't like and that i can't change, since the new BG:EE will not exactly be backwards compatible with BG1 animations, they are already limited.
All in all, i will support their new product by buying, but i will consider it seriously lame( the situation, not necessarily the product), if i'm not inclined to play it because i prefer the older version
As for the work involved with building new models and animations, i know it.
But : 1) It's 2D, we're not talking about creating new Diablo 3 characters.
2) They could still do it and charge for the game more. The only difference would be that the release date would be maybe pushed back ( if they are not already making something like this anyway) , but the product will probably be more polished and thus will sell better.
and 3) Recreating the UI takes time as well, but they're doing it. The main reason is that if the UI is not fixed it won't be easily usable in ipads etc. But they are doing it from scratch. Wouldn't it be wise to do character art from scratch as well? The backrounds and area art was very nice anyway, it was the characters that lacked quality.
Remember that while a new enhanced version will maybe appeal to some, it is questionable whether modders will "come back" to the game and remake mods for the enhanced edition or not. So we might get stuck with the "vanilla BG:EE" and nothing else, leaving us unable to change anything we don't like, be it area art,character art, or in general graphics, fixes and so much more. Which again points to, stick with the old version to play.
I understand to some of you this "character graphics update thing" might seem weird, but to me it is just as weird to officially TOUCH Baldur's Gate, a legend among RPGs, if not to visually do it justice as well. And visuals do not need to be 3D to look cool. Some of the coolest graphics were in Arcades like Knights of the Round or even the remakes of Monkey Island series, nothing 3D or HD about that.
And it is not just me. Trent said that they were initially saying about making it HD, polishing it visually but because the source art was lost, they have trouble now.
That is what i am saying. Screw the source art. Do it from scratch like you wanted to do. Create new character models and just polish the backrounds a bit since that's what you intended to do anyway. Why back down because Bioware... lost the art? That's it, make the BG:EE something that everyone will like, not the same game with some mods and a new UI.
Oh well, what's worse is that probably the guys at Overhaul will not even read this -_-
@Mornmagor - there is more to making sprites for Baldur's Gate than meets the eye. First, as @Tanthalas said, a graphic designer or conceptual artist must draw every sprite in every armor front, back and both sides. Then a modeller must make a 3D model in 3DS (if you look at the BG manual, there was a team of modelling artists involved, one of who was @TrentOster) for every sprite in every armor for every position, wielding all combinations of weapons and shields. Then the animation team (which I'm afraid Beamdog/Overhaul does not have) must animate the models. Last but not least, the models are rendered (which, in the case of Baldur's Gate, implies also being turned to 2D sprites). If you want to avoid mirroring (and we'd totally want that), more work needs to be done since east-facing drawing, models and animations must also be done.
Without an animation team there is no way they could possibly create new character animations. They cannot remove mirroring from BG2 animations because the source art assets were lost, which is the same reason why higher resolution textures can't be used for them (it would require re-rendering).
Area art requires one drawing and one 3D model prior to rendering. No animation. They're even using the Speedtree software to add vegetation quicker. Sounds a lot more feasible than new character animations and I'm saying this despite my genuine dislike for BG2 animations. Those who know me on these boards also know that if there is one thing about which I am adamant is the visual superiority of the BG1 character animations. I just realize that Beamdog/Overhaul can't do much about it. If they put me in the condition to make the originals dual-wield I'll be already grateful.
The UI was necessary to overhaul because the original was hard-coded at 640x480 (with some parts being 800x600 as of the BG2 engine), and a brand new, more flexible one was required to make BG:EE multiplatform. I guess they would've worked on it even if they could have worked on animations and backgrounds as well. They are on a tight schedule and lack the means to give us new animations.
@AndreaColombo - With what you suggest, you practically say that :
You are stuck with BG2 graphics AND animations.
We cannot make new graphics or animations, and you cannot use the BG1 ones. You will not be able to import the old BG1 animations either because there will be no support for it - due to resolution and engine changing, the BG1 engine is forever forsaken.
Sooo, what is the art department that they hired doing? Creating 2 new portraits? Also, if they changed the engine, which they did, why can't the way you import characters into the engine change? There is no such thing as " no solution" , there is always a solution.
And another question. How is it possible to lose the source art, but keep the source code for the engine?
P.S. Playing the same game modded, with new UI, and without the ability of changing the things i don't like ( cough infinity animations cough) is not my idea of an Enhanced Edition. I am sure they can find a way to overcome the apparent difficulties with graphic enhancement, even if that means hiring an animator. Why is that impossible? You raise the price and that's it.
@Mornmagor - I never said BG1 animations can't be imported! In fact, I see no reason why they couldn't. They just lack support for dual-wielding 'cause they were originally created for a game in which dual-wielding was not an option. If you're willing to give up on dual-wielding, you can most likely restore BG1 character animations in BG:EE and, as I said, dual-wielding can potentially be added through mods.
As for their art department, I believe Nat is replacing all cinematics with new, high resolution 2D animations. Then there are portraits and, as per @TrentOster, they're considering new paperdolls as well if it can be carried out on time for the planned release date. This is what has been announced so far.
@AndreaColombo - BG1 models can be imported now. With the new engine, you need an upgrade to the previous BG1 engine as well, or else, if the graphics look crisper ( which they might, considering higher resolutions openGL and zoom) the sprites would look totally out of place and in different size than the other objects in screen. Since the old engine is not "there" anymore, this won't happen. What they can do is use the BG1 models, unbug the dual wielding problem and try to sort out the missing animation.
I know what is involved to make new models. However that doesn't mean i agree with the "they can't do anything" mentality. No, they can do several things.
One of which, get an animator and forget "tight" schedules. If something is to be done, let it be done right. This is Baldur's Gate we are touching, not Dragon Age ( puke ). You then make the new models and get done with it.
I don't know exactly what they want to do, but you have to understand how lame it sounds that "nothing can be done about the character art". They went through negotiations or whatever for 14 months to get approval and the problem is creating new character art because it takes time?
P.S. I'm reminding again that i will buy BG:EE even if nothing of what i want is there. It's just that, for those that don't want to read all the walls of text i'm asking 2 things
1)Either new character models or
2)Keeping the BG1 models, since the BG2 ones were considerably worse. The armors in BG1 looked sooo much cooler
An addendum for most of your solutions is "spend more time if necessary and increase the price if you have to", but that's one major thing, they don't want to increase the price because they're aiming for the 10$ sweet spot for the iPad.
They are trying to not break mods though, so IA working on BGEE isn't out of the question, but that's also not what you want either I guess.
@Tanthalas I guess that some mods will work, but i imagine those mods will have more to do with bugfixing or some npcs or quests.
Since IA is based upon using animations from BG1, which have less frames, i can't imagine it working with a new engine. Higher resolutions and clearer graphics for zoom will probably make the old BG1 models look weird. If it is compatible, that is.
It's a major thing because they are aiming for 10$ sweet spot for the iPad?
That's the major thing?
I politely disagree, since, no one asked for a 10$ price because of iPads, i thought this was more about the PC than the iPad.
Also, i could argue that even if you don't increase the price, people will buy BG:EE more if you enhance the graphics more, meaning that if it is more polished in appearance, you will eventually profit more and claim BG:EE a success, which is the point.
Anyway, i admit that they haven't said "the character graphics will be the same", they instead said that "they are limited with what they can do with them" and have kept silent ever since. I just wish they find a way to implement the sprites/avatars from BG1, find a way to overcome the dual wielding problem, and start enhancing the character graphs from there. Not from the damnable BG2 sprites aaarghh
/prays and does voodoo <(O_O)< ^(O_O)^ >(O_O)> (<- voodoo dance to affect the devs to agree with me)
P.S. How can someone join the reddit team? it has some info there but it's private
@Mornmagor - IA actually already works with Tutu/EasyTutu so porting BG1 animations to the BG2 engine is something that works. The BG2 sprites really aren't more detailed - quite the opposite, in fact. Zooming in on BG1 models can't be much worse, if at all.
@AndreaColombo - I know lol, they look worse but they have more frames surprisingly or should i say they support more animations for each move, i have no idea how they came up with that "fantastic" result though :PPP since they look worse indeed, and the armor looks less detailed on the chars.
@Tanthalas it's just they said or i think they said that a list of what is actually being done will be there but oh well.
I would be delighted if they used the BG1 models for the base and updated from there, the only thing they would need to add is an animation for the offhand, or find a way to overcome it. I am trying to think of a way but i'm no developer.
Come on Trent, we know you can do it, you're a resourceful guy :P - it's either that or new char models!
P.S. Damnit the armors in BG1 looked SO much COOLER :X
Edit : I have carefully examined the avatars of BG2 and BG1 side by side and indeed, i was wrong, the BG2 not only look worse, they are lower resolution graphics, and the have the same animation frames. They are worse models.
So guys at Overhaul, if you would be able to kindly work with the BG1 models for characters and see what you can do from there, it would be a blessing.
Question to anyone that can actually answer, since i came up with an idea.
Didn't Overhaul said they have the art team repaint some stuff for the art, i think the char models were one of them.
What i mean is, instead of creating new models and animations, why not keep these and just do a repaint on the 2D model? This could work too. You can actually hand-draw the sprites to update them visually instead of using 3D rendering etc.
I am almost sure they said they were doing it but i can't remember, they would have to do something anyway so that higher resolutions and zoom would be supported with the existing models.
Maybe there is hope? :x
Edit : Ok guys i did a search and bumped into the words of someone who has studied programming. Basically what he said is what i said and no one answered. If you have the source code you can import any graphics you want, you don't need the original art assets. So basically this " we can't do anything with the graphics for the characters" is not true at all.
These are the actual phrases(in context) :
1) Whether they're still available isn't the issue (and what constitues original assets? You think they cropped out huge amounts of usable material?). The issue is that if you've got the source code, you can import any new graphics you want.
and
2) Lost or not, with the source code he has the ability to add any kind of art asset he wants.
By 2 different people, they both said the same thing.
So, after searching a more professional opinion this is what i find. It was logical, how can you possibly need art assets if you have the source code for the engine in the first place? It didn't make sense and still doesn't.
Concluding, and this is the last time i speak about NEW CHARACTER MODELS, unless of course someone answers, there is no excuse about no better character visuals but choice.
Sorry for tiring you with me ramblings about new char graphics, but after searching for the "truth" i feel pretty pissed tbh -_-
Was releasing it for iPads that more important than improving the character graphics?
@Tanthalas it's just they said or i think they said that a list of what is actually being done will be there but oh well.
Nah, there's no such list over there.
Its basically the same as here, just topics making requests.
As for the source code thing, I'm no programmer, but those arguments don't make much sense to me. Yes, Overhaul has the source code and can add all the new graphics that they want, but someone would still have to make those new graphics. I'm guessing that the original art assets (whatever they are, again, I'm no programmer) would probably be required for re-rendering.
@Tanthalas it's just they said or i think they said that a list of what is actually being done will be there but oh well.
Nah, there's no such list over there.
Its basically the same as here, just topics making requests.
As for the source code thing, I'm no programmer, but those arguments don't make much sense to me. Yes, Overhaul has the source code and can add all the new graphics that they want, but someone would still have to make those new graphics. I'm guessing that the original art assets (whatever they are, again, I'm no programmer) would probably be required for re-rendering.
You can hand - draw the models or create new assets if you have the source code. Computers back in 98 used 3D rendering to create models and then turn them 2D, you don't have to do it like that with today's machines. What Overhaul wanted was to get the original art so they could work immediately from there but there is another way. I just don't see them doing it.
Also, upscaling the graphics is not a mega-graphical improvement like people think, it is a necessity to port the game in iPads, you won't notice anything "actually" different or new.
Conclusion, if they use their " art director" to actually hand draw new character sprites, then we will see new models for characters. If they don't, we just have to accept that the game will look exactly the same with the one using Tutu, widescreen mod, font fix for 1920x1080 and sharpen. Which is, not making an enhanced game, it's using mods that i can use on my old game as well and shipping them with the game.
I am starting to be more and more sceptical about this "enhanced" edition as days pass and we don't see a single screenshot, especially as far as graphics are concerned.
You can hand - draw the models or create new assets if you have the source code.
That is not gonna happen, and not because they wouldnt love new models... it is what is involved in creating new animations. Having the source code is not the issue.
Yes, using 3dsMax or zBrush will speed up the process. But you also need a 3D modeller... a 2D artist is NOT a 3D modeller if you go that route. Also, their artist is a little busy at the moment doing necessary artwork most likely, and not filling feature requests. Not to say that this isnt a worthy feature request, but it has gotten off track of reality.
Then there is also the issue of creating the BAMS which are really just glorified GIF files with transparency. Each model would then need to have animations created, then 'snapshots' of those animations converted into the animation sequences. For IWD style animations there are 26 Sequence (13/13 East Facing) BAMS, each of those holds between 14 - 30 animation frames. You do the math! I know, I have created an animation from scratch and it is no party and just one took me 4 months. You make it sound so easy... heh.
No doubt that software could be written to speed up the conversion process... but who will write that software? And where will the money come from to purchase that software?
So they are left with using the old tools and old fashioned hand drawn artwork. You will have to wait for a developer to post details, which again is unlikely. If you keep things civil and within the bounds of reality, they may indeed show up in this thread and give some insight.
You can hand - draw the models or create new assets if you have the source code.
That is not gonna happen, and not because they wouldnt love new models... it is what is involved in creating new animations. Having the source code is not the issue.
Yes, using 3dsMax or zBrush will speed up the process. But you also need a 3D modeller... a 2D artist is NOT a 3D modeller if you go that route. Also, their artist is a little busy at the moment doing necessary artwork most likely, and not filling feature requests. Not to say that this isnt a worthy feature request, but it has gotten off track of reality.
Then there is also the issue of creating the BAMS which are really just glorified GIF files with transparency. Each model would then need to have animations created, then 'snapshots' of those animations converted into the animation sequences. For IWD style animations there are 26 Sequence (13/13 East Facing) BAMS, each of those holds between 14 - 30 animation frames. You do the math! I know, I have created an animation from scratch and it is no party and just one took me 4 months. You make it sound so easy... heh.
No doubt that software could be written to speed up the conversion process... but who will write that software? And where will the money come from to purchase that software?
So they are left with using the old tools and old fashioned hand drawn artwork. You will have to wait for a developer to post details, which again is unlikely. If you keep things civil and within the bounds of reality, they may indeed show up in this thread and give some insight.
I don't understand what your point is.
That it takes work to create new models? That it is "outside the boundaries of reality" ?
It is obvious that you need resources to create software like that Cuv, but when you buy iMacs and use resources to port a game like Baldur's Gate to... iPad(!) where are those resources going?
Since they re-forged the Infinity Engine, which means they have the source code, they can import their own graphics in the game and they did with some new areas as they said. If creating new character models is outside the boundaries of reality ( which sounded pretty arrogant, mind you ), then it means we have different opinions about where should the resources be spent first, or, what exactly do we want from this enhanced version. You don't HAVE to use a 3D renderer to make models and animations for BG, but you seem fixed on it since it was used in 1998.
So far what we know about this version is :
1) It will look the same, tweaked with Tutu, widescreen, fontfix and sharpen,which are mods that are not Overhaul work.
2) It will keep the story the same and not alter NPCs.
3) It will ported to Mac and iPad (allowing multiplatform multiplayer support, additional resources for ports ).
4) It will feature a new UI.
5) It will feature 1 new NPC and 2 optional questlines.
6) It will have some new music and some new concept art.
Alright, let's be frank shall we? 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6 have no impact. What is actually new is 5, which is not something mods can't add to the game.
I just don't like the direction this "enhancing" took. That's it. If you wanna argue that we can't have new models for characters because it's a lot of work and porting to iPad and fixing the UI approprietely is more important, then fine, that's your opinion. If, on the other hand, Overhaul can't do this because they don't have an animator or a 3D modeler and can't do without him, then what can i say, it's my problem somehow? Making new graphics for a BG:EE after 14 years was a given for everyone. You can't just expect me to accept it not happening and saying "thank you". I understand the problems they might face, but these are not my problems. If the end product is not practically different than my own version now, then for me, a PC gamer, there was no point in this.
It is obvious that you need resources to create software like that Cuv, but when you buy iMacs and use resources to port a game like Baldur's Gate to... iPad(!) where are those resources going?
I know you're annoyed that BGEE isn't going to be the graphical remake that we'd all like to have, but this argument is basically "Why can't you guys buy a Ferrari when you just spent 10 cents on some gum?".
It is obvious that you need resources to create software like that Cuv, but when you buy iMacs and use resources to port a game like Baldur's Gate to... iPad(!) where are those resources going?
I know you're annoyed that BGEE isn't going to be the graphical remake that we'd all like to have, but this argument is basically "Why can't you guys buy a Ferrari when you just spent 10 cents on some gum?".
Hiring a 3D modeller is more expensive than buying 1 or more iMacs and using resources to port the game to iPads and Macs? If it is of the same caliber as the Ferrari and 10 sents, i apologise.
Exagerration yes, but you get my point.
@AndreaColombo i don't know if they used the mods or not, and it shouldn't be my concern, my concern is that the result is the same thing with these mods aka, i could do the same thing with the mods and the current engine, i didn't mean they stole the mods for their benefit. However, out of curiosity, how would you know even if they did? Trent said he was going to try and contact some members of the modding community.
Anyway guys, let's agree to disagree, i don't think we need to argue over semantics, my opinion is that IF the final product is like the 6 points mentioned above, i see no point in it. My humble opinion.
If the developers KNEW they couldn't do anything about the graphics, they would then need to involve themselves with a tedious task of creating character art from scratch. I don't see a point in enhancing BG beyond making it prettier. The game is running fine with tons of mods as is. The rules are not changing, not the story, not the looks, you get the drill...
Comments
Re-forged engine. Check.
I am expecting too much when i expect that the graphics of the characters(i didn't speak about all the graphics) will be remade so they don't look pixelated in higher resolutions ? Resolutions they are making sure that the game supports with the new engine.
No, i don't think so. I expect the game to look a bit nicer, at least my character, since i have played countless hours, mods, there is nothing possibly more to look forward to than re-experience all this with just my character having a bit nicer animations or at least having a better skin(model for 2D).
If i'm expecting too much because of this, i don't know what to say. I expected that a graphical upgrade of this sort was a given and we would not need to discuss it or ask for it, when you enhance a game from 12+ years ago.
Would I pay ten or twenty bucks for a polished version of Baldur's Gate with TotSC with all the bugs fixed, a couple of new characters and quests, and some general engine and graphical improvements (support for many aspect ratios, etc.)? Yes, I would. It would be nice to see everything that could be fixed, fixed. And it would be nice for ALL the aspects of the game to have some graphical improvements (avatars, paperdolls, etc), but as for me that not happening won't prevent me from buying this game. Just my opinion.
It will just be a disappointment, since this "enhancing" or whatever it will be exactly, could become something truly epic. Besides, we are not asking for a complete graphical overhaul.
As for the licencing to change stuff, i believe Trent has said that they can change anything as long as they don't touch the story and the rules. The graphical enhancements would be under reforging the engine, which they did.
We can only hope.
Trent: "Our initial proposal was to build an HD version of Baldur's Gate until we discovered Bioware had lost almost all of the source art and as such an HD version was impossible. We were devastated. But we picked ourselves up and re-scoped around the idea of "enhancing" the existing version with new features and new content while bringing it to new platforms."
So, does this mean that we are using the same graphics or, even though it won't be to the extent of HD, will still make new art for some area and the character models too, still in 2D?
Anyway, if it's impossible to enhance the graphics, Trent can you please at least let us keep the BG1 models and animations? If we were able to find out more about what they are doing with the "new character graphics" part i would be a happy panda.
On a side note, if the art was lost, can't they just create new avatars for the characters? Update the skin and nothing more, since it's 2D.
>_<
As for the sprites, I doubt they'd have the time to create new ones (the whole process is exceedingly time consuming, and probably requires more personnel than Beamdog can currently count on). They could give us the original BG1 character animations by default, but then everyone would have to give up on dual-wielding since those avatars aren't dual-wielding capable (even if they removed the game crash that occurs when you equip them with off-hand weapons as per my request, the avatars still wouldn't attack with two weapons and would look weird). The vast majority of the players would therefore be weirded out and ticked off without knowing the reason (keep in mind there are users who haven't even noticed the animations are different!).
As I said, if the devs could fix the crash, Infinity Animations could add dual-wielding support to those animations (of course, if the devs could do it themselves it would be most awesome; I just don't see that happening because of how time consuming the task would be).
We can't have upgraded models and we can't have the BG1 ones that looked much cooler?
What the eck
And not only that, we won't even be able to use infinity animations any more, since it is doubtful if it will work, you know, the game engine changing and all. You know, i seriously doubt that it is THAT time consuming to create new character models. It can take time, but heck, it's 2D, it's doable. They could keep the animations of BG2, fix the mirroring, and just make a new skin with more detail. How are they making new art for the new areas anyway if they couldn't add anything to the game?
The thing is, Trent has said in 2 interviews that they can't do much about character art because the art was lost. Then he said they are using the BG2 engine, and thus, its graphics. Is there any point to read further? I am already disappointed at what i hear. They couldn't do a graphical overhaul so they went with making it for more platforms and adding some content in it, that is why instead of changing the character graphics they change the UI, so it can be usable in highter resolution in ipads... Had a lot of hopes for this but i don't understand how it is anything more than a modded BG1 running with Tutu.
I still can't stomach the idea that Bioware lost the source art... I REALLY thought that even though it won't be HD, new graphics still in 2D at least for characters was a given. I would pay a bit more just for that honestly -.-
- You have to make a drawing of all possible movement postions (walking, attacking, casting, etc).
- You then also have to make drawings for all visible equipment (not only armor, weapons, shields but you also have very different looks for warriors, rogues and spellcasters).
- You then have to do this for several races (Human M/F, Elf M/F, Dwarf and Halfling). And if you really wanted to do a great job you'd make new animations for Half-orcs (M/F), female dwarves, M/F Gnomes and female halflings.
It would be a lot of work for just having Human M/F, Elf M/F, Dwarf and Halfling models.
Creating a new area is mostly a static drawing that has different lighting depending on the time of day. Yeah, I'd also pay a lot more for a remake, but BGEE isn't remake, and we need to accept the project for what it is. Overhaul isn't an enormous company so I assume they have to keep their ambitions for BGEE in check to not blow away their budget, but personally I hope that BGEE and BG2EE is successful enough for them to be more ambitious in their future projects.
I'm not saying that making new areas is easy as pie, but I do think that making an area for a game like BG requires dealing with a lot less variables than making a new character model for even just one race.
Let's face it, BG:EE is directed at people who know BG and D&D anyway, so it's the first category. I don't see it being THAT succesful if it doesn't bring something new to look at. I've heard it from someone else too and i agree, modders can implement new quests or npcs, but they cannot implement new graphics or character models. If they do things that mods could do, i am afraid that people will stick to the old version anyway. Imagine playing the game again and seeing the differences visually in all the places you visit, and noticing how the characters look now compared to then. It was something i was hoping would happen.
For example, i have BG2 installed and i use the infinity animations, the one that brings BG1 animations and avatars into BG2. I love it absolutely. Why would i want to play the game again with animations i don't like and that i can't change, since the new BG:EE will not exactly be backwards compatible with BG1 animations, they are already limited.
All in all, i will support their new product by buying, but i will consider it seriously lame( the situation, not necessarily the product), if i'm not inclined to play it because i prefer the older version
As for the work involved with building new models and animations, i know it.
But : 1) It's 2D, we're not talking about creating new Diablo 3 characters.
2) They could still do it and charge for the game more. The only difference would be that the release date would be maybe pushed back ( if they are not already making something like this anyway) , but the product will probably be more polished and thus will sell better.
and 3) Recreating the UI takes time as well, but they're doing it. The main reason is that if the UI is not fixed it won't be easily usable in ipads etc. But they are doing it from scratch. Wouldn't it be wise to do character art from scratch as well? The backrounds and area art was very nice anyway, it was the characters that lacked quality.
Remember that while a new enhanced version will maybe appeal to some, it is questionable whether modders will "come back" to the game and remake mods for the enhanced edition or not. So we might get stuck with the "vanilla BG:EE" and nothing else, leaving us unable to change anything we don't like, be it area art,character art, or in general graphics, fixes and so much more. Which again points to, stick with the old version to play.
I understand to some of you this "character graphics update thing" might seem weird, but to me it is just as weird to officially TOUCH Baldur's Gate, a legend among RPGs, if not to visually do it justice as well. And visuals do not need to be 3D to look cool. Some of the coolest graphics were in Arcades like Knights of the Round or even the remakes of Monkey Island series, nothing 3D or HD about that.
And it is not just me. Trent said that they were initially saying about making it HD, polishing it visually but because the source art was lost, they have trouble now.
That is what i am saying. Screw the source art. Do it from scratch like you wanted to do. Create new character models and just polish the backrounds a bit since that's what you intended to do anyway. Why back down because Bioware... lost the art? That's it, make the BG:EE something that everyone will like, not the same game with some mods and a new UI.
Oh well, what's worse is that probably the guys at Overhaul will not even read this -_-
Without an animation team there is no way they could possibly create new character animations. They cannot remove mirroring from BG2 animations because the source art assets were lost, which is the same reason why higher resolution textures can't be used for them (it would require re-rendering).
Area art requires one drawing and one 3D model prior to rendering. No animation. They're even using the Speedtree software to add vegetation quicker. Sounds a lot more feasible than new character animations and I'm saying this despite my genuine dislike for BG2 animations. Those who know me on these boards also know that if there is one thing about which I am adamant is the visual superiority of the BG1 character animations. I just realize that Beamdog/Overhaul can't do much about it. If they put me in the condition to make the originals dual-wield I'll be already grateful.
The UI was necessary to overhaul because the original was hard-coded at 640x480 (with some parts being 800x600 as of the BG2 engine), and a brand new, more flexible one was required to make BG:EE multiplatform. I guess they would've worked on it even if they could have worked on animations and backgrounds as well. They are on a tight schedule and lack the means to give us new animations.
You are stuck with BG2 graphics AND animations.
We cannot make new graphics or animations, and you cannot use the BG1 ones. You will not be able to import the old BG1 animations either because there will be no support for it - due to resolution and engine changing, the BG1 engine is forever forsaken.
Sooo, what is the art department that they hired doing? Creating 2 new portraits? Also, if they changed the engine, which they did, why can't the way you import characters into the engine change? There is no such thing as " no solution" , there is always a solution.
And another question. How is it possible to lose the source art, but keep the source code for the engine?
P.S. Playing the same game modded, with new UI, and without the ability of changing the things i don't like ( cough infinity animations cough) is not my idea of an Enhanced Edition. I am sure they can find a way to overcome the apparent difficulties with graphic enhancement, even if that means hiring an animator. Why is that impossible? You raise the price and that's it.
As for their art department, I believe Nat is replacing all cinematics with new, high resolution 2D animations. Then there are portraits and, as per @TrentOster, they're considering new paperdolls as well if it can be carried out on time for the planned release date. This is what has been announced so far.
I know what is involved to make new models. However that doesn't mean i agree with the "they can't do anything" mentality. No, they can do several things.
One of which, get an animator and forget "tight" schedules. If something is to be done, let it be done right. This is Baldur's Gate we are touching, not Dragon Age ( puke ). You then make the new models and get done with it.
I don't know exactly what they want to do, but you have to understand how lame it sounds that "nothing can be done about the character art". They went through negotiations or whatever for 14 months to get approval and the problem is creating new character art because it takes time?
P.S. I'm reminding again that i will buy BG:EE even if nothing of what i want is there. It's just that, for those that don't want to read all the walls of text i'm asking 2 things
1)Either new character models or
2)Keeping the BG1 models, since the BG2 ones were considerably worse. The armors in BG1 looked sooo much cooler
An addendum for most of your solutions is "spend more time if necessary and increase the price if you have to", but that's one major thing, they don't want to increase the price because they're aiming for the 10$ sweet spot for the iPad.
They are trying to not break mods though, so IA working on BGEE isn't out of the question, but that's also not what you want either I guess.
Since IA is based upon using animations from BG1, which have less frames, i can't imagine it working with a new engine. Higher resolutions and clearer graphics for zoom will probably make the old BG1 models look weird. If it is compatible, that is.
It's a major thing because they are aiming for 10$ sweet spot for the iPad?
That's the major thing?
I politely disagree, since, no one asked for a 10$ price because of iPads, i thought this was more about the PC than the iPad.
Also, i could argue that even if you don't increase the price, people will buy BG:EE more if you enhance the graphics more, meaning that if it is more polished in appearance, you will eventually profit more and claim BG:EE a success, which is the point.
Anyway, i admit that they haven't said "the character graphics will be the same", they instead said that "they are limited with what they can do with them" and have kept silent ever since. I just wish they find a way to implement the sprites/avatars from BG1, find a way to overcome the dual wielding problem, and start enhancing the character graphs from there. Not from the damnable BG2 sprites aaarghh
/prays and does voodoo <(O_O)< ^(O_O)^ >(O_O)> (<- voodoo dance to affect the devs to agree with me)
P.S. How can someone join the reddit team? it has some info there but it's private
@Tanthalas it's just they said or i think they said that a list of what is actually being done will be there but oh well.
I would be delighted if they used the BG1 models for the base and updated from there, the only thing they would need to add is an animation for the offhand, or find a way to overcome it. I am trying to think of a way but i'm no developer.
Come on Trent, we know you can do it, you're a resourceful guy :P - it's either that or new char models!
P.S. Damnit the armors in BG1 looked SO much COOLER :X
Edit : I have carefully examined the avatars of BG2 and BG1 side by side and indeed, i was wrong, the BG2 not only look worse, they are lower resolution graphics, and the have the same animation frames. They are worse models.
So guys at Overhaul, if you would be able to kindly work with the BG1 models for characters and see what you can do from there, it would be a blessing.
Didn't Overhaul said they have the art team repaint some stuff for the art, i think the char models were one of them.
What i mean is, instead of creating new models and animations, why not keep these and just do a repaint on the 2D model? This could work too. You can actually hand-draw the sprites to update them visually instead of using 3D rendering etc.
I am almost sure they said they were doing it but i can't remember, they would have to do something anyway so that higher resolutions and zoom would be supported with the existing models.
Maybe there is hope? :x
Edit : Ok guys i did a search and bumped into the words of someone who has studied programming. Basically what he said is what i said and no one answered. If you have the source code you can import any graphics you want, you don't need the original art assets. So basically this " we can't do anything with the graphics for the characters" is not true at all.
These are the actual phrases(in context) :
1) Whether they're still available isn't the issue (and what constitues original assets? You think they cropped out huge amounts of usable material?). The issue is that if you've got the source code, you can import any new graphics you want.
and
2) Lost or not, with the source code he has the ability to add any kind of art asset he wants.
By 2 different people, they both said the same thing.
So, after searching a more professional opinion this is what i find. It was logical, how can you possibly need art assets if you have the source code for the engine in the first place? It didn't make sense and still doesn't.
Concluding, and this is the last time i speak about NEW CHARACTER MODELS, unless of course someone answers, there is no excuse about no better character visuals but choice.
Sorry for tiring you with me ramblings about new char graphics, but after searching for the "truth" i feel pretty pissed tbh -_-
Was releasing it for iPads that more important than improving the character graphics?
Anyway, i'm out of the discussion for now.
Its basically the same as here, just topics making requests.
As for the source code thing, I'm no programmer, but those arguments don't make much sense to me. Yes, Overhaul has the source code and can add all the new graphics that they want, but someone would still have to make those new graphics. I'm guessing that the original art assets (whatever they are, again, I'm no programmer) would probably be required for re-rendering.
Also, upscaling the graphics is not a mega-graphical improvement like people think, it is a necessity to port the game in iPads, you won't notice anything "actually" different or new.
Conclusion, if they use their " art director" to actually hand draw new character sprites, then we will see new models for characters. If they don't, we just have to accept that the game will look exactly the same with the one using Tutu, widescreen mod, font fix for 1920x1080 and sharpen. Which is, not making an enhanced game, it's using mods that i can use on my old game as well and shipping them with the game.
I am starting to be more and more sceptical about this "enhanced" edition as days pass and we don't see a single screenshot, especially as far as graphics are concerned.
Yes, using 3dsMax or zBrush will speed up the process. But you also need a 3D modeller... a 2D artist is NOT a 3D modeller if you go that route. Also, their artist is a little busy at the moment doing necessary artwork most likely, and not filling feature requests. Not to say that this isnt a worthy feature request, but it has gotten off track of reality.
Then there is also the issue of creating the BAMS which are really just glorified GIF files with transparency. Each model would then need to have animations created, then 'snapshots' of those animations converted into the animation sequences. For IWD style animations there are 26 Sequence (13/13 East Facing) BAMS, each of those holds between 14 - 30 animation frames. You do the math! I know, I have created an animation from scratch and it is no party and just one took me 4 months. You make it sound so easy... heh.
No doubt that software could be written to speed up the conversion process... but who will write that software? And where will the money come from to purchase that software?
So they are left with using the old tools and old fashioned hand drawn artwork. You will have to wait for a developer to post details, which again is unlikely. If you keep things civil and within the bounds of reality, they may indeed show up in this thread and give some insight.
That it takes work to create new models? That it is "outside the boundaries of reality" ?
It is obvious that you need resources to create software like that Cuv, but when you buy iMacs and use resources to port a game like Baldur's Gate to... iPad(!) where are those resources going?
Since they re-forged the Infinity Engine, which means they have the source code, they can import their own graphics in the game and they did with some new areas as they said. If creating new character models is outside the boundaries of reality ( which sounded pretty arrogant, mind you ), then it means we have different opinions about where should the resources be spent first, or, what exactly do we want from this enhanced version. You don't HAVE to use a 3D renderer to make models and animations for BG, but you seem fixed on it since it was used in 1998.
So far what we know about this version is :
1) It will look the same, tweaked with Tutu, widescreen, fontfix and sharpen,which are mods that are not Overhaul work.
2) It will keep the story the same and not alter NPCs.
3) It will ported to Mac and iPad (allowing multiplatform multiplayer support, additional resources for ports ).
4) It will feature a new UI.
5) It will feature 1 new NPC and 2 optional questlines.
6) It will have some new music and some new concept art.
Alright, let's be frank shall we? 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6 have no impact. What is actually new is 5, which is not something mods can't add to the game.
I just don't like the direction this "enhancing" took. That's it. If you wanna argue that we can't have new models for characters because it's a lot of work and porting to iPad and fixing the UI approprietely is more important, then fine, that's your opinion. If, on the other hand, Overhaul can't do this because they don't have an animator or a 3D modeler and can't do without him, then what can i say, it's my problem somehow? Making new graphics for a BG:EE after 14 years was a given for everyone. You can't just expect me to accept it not happening and saying "thank you". I understand the problems they might face, but these are not my problems. If the end product is not practically different than my own version now, then for me, a PC gamer, there was no point in this.
Exagerration yes, but you get my point.
@AndreaColombo i don't know if they used the mods or not, and it shouldn't be my concern, my concern is that the result is the same thing with these mods aka, i could do the same thing with the mods and the current engine, i didn't mean they stole the mods for their benefit. However, out of curiosity, how would you know even if they did? Trent said he was going to try and contact some members of the modding community.
Anyway guys, let's agree to disagree, i don't think we need to argue over semantics, my opinion is that IF the final product is like the 6 points mentioned above, i see no point in it. My humble opinion.
If the developers KNEW they couldn't do anything about the graphics, they would then need to involve themselves with a tedious task of creating character art from scratch. I don't see a point in enhancing BG beyond making it prettier. The game is running fine with tons of mods as is. The rules are not changing, not the story, not the looks, you get the drill...