Skip to content

A Ranking of the Divine Spells? (Now discussing LEVEL 7 spells)

245678

Comments

  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    Top:

    Armor of Faith 5/5 Yes it's true that the spell doesn't do much until the Cleric reached perhaps level 10, even
    though 10% from level 5 may be helpful in the tougher BG1 fights. However during those
    first levels you don't really need it becasue good AC will suffice. In SOA you'll reach a
    point where enemies start doing damage even if you've got good AC. That's where AoF
    comes in.
    Sanctuary 5/5 It's quickly cast and lets you do pretty much everything (except attacking) without being
    bothered by enemies. Especially great for Cleric/Thieves because they can simply walk into
    a room filled with enemies and detect and disarm traps without anyone touching you.
    Remove Fear 5/5 A lifesaver from Tarnesh's Horror spell till the great dragons in SOA and TOB. Quickly cast,
    and works both preventively as curatively. AoE spell, which has a drawback: hasted
    characters under the effects of fear are almost impossible to reach with the spell.
    Doom 3.5-4.5/5 Rating depends on the casting time your game imposes. When combined with a mage's
    Greater Malison, this spell makes a lot of otherwise unreliable spells worthwhile. A good
    combo for a Cleric/Mage's spell trigger.


    As to the mid and lower tiers I'm going along with @Corvino.

    I think Magical Stone could have been better, for example it bypassed magic resistance (as someone already mentioned), and if its casting time were shorter. Would make for a decent spell disrupter, like Larloch's Minor Drain for a mage.
    It would have made sense as well IMO, if Bless scaled with the caster's level. A high priest(ess) should be in better standing with his Deity, and be better capable of channelling his Deity's good will into a blessing upon his/her comrades. As it is, the spell stops making any notable difference at higher levels.

  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    C = Cleric Only, D = Druid Only

    Level 1
    Top Tiers:
    -Remove Fear (C): 5/5 (long duration, buff spell when going against mages, demons and dragons)
    -Armor of Faith: 4.5/5 (memorize after level 5)
    -Protection from Evil (C): 4.5/5
    -Cure Light Wounds: 4/5 (consistent spell in BG1 with a party)
    -Sanctuary (C): 4/5 (cast self-targeting spells to maintain invisibility)

    Mid Tiers:
    -Entangle (D): 3.5/5 (area melee disabling spell but save +3 bonus)
    -Bless: 3/5 (good effect but long casting time and short duration)
    -Doom: 3/5 (1 round casting time)

    Low Tiers:
    -Command (C): 2/5
    -Detect Evil: 1/5
    -Magic Stone: 1/5
    -Shillelagh: 1/5
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited March 2014
    Ok the discussion about the level 1 spells seems te have come to a halt. I summarize and generalize our views on the Level 1 spells as follows.

    TOP TIER:

    * Remove Fear 5/5
    its preventive and curative usability, AoE character and its usefulness from Candlekeep till the end of TOB make it a terrific spell.
    * Sanctuary 5/5
    opening locks, healing and buffing yourself and party members, finding and disarming traps (for cleric/thieves), all without enemies being able to deter you, make this spell a lifesaver, like Remove Fear, throughout the entire trilogy.
    * Armor of Faith 4.5/5
    fantastic spell but takes some levelling up before it really shines, which keeps it from a 5/5 rating.
    * Doom 4.5/5
    imposing on your enemies a -2 penalty to both thac0 and saves, makes a big difference in BG1 (and if combined with other spells in BG2 as well). Note: this rating applies only if it has a casting time of 1 in your game setup.

    MID TIER:

    * Prot. from Evil 3.5/5
    a very useful spell, both as a general buff and for the specific purpose of gating in demons, it's not top tier though, because mages can cast it and paladins get it for free. Besides most priests will stop using it once they get access to the longer lasting level 4 AoE variant.
    * Command 3.5/5
    very effective in BG1, against lower level enemies that get no saving throw, but once you're dealing with higher level opponents, who do get a saving throw, its usefulness decreases (unless combined with other spells: Doom, Greater Malison)
    * Bless 3/5
    the benefits it confers are too small for top tier status, but at lower levels or in combination with other buffs, it does make a difference.
    * Cure Light Wounds 3/5
    during the first levels in BG1 this spell helps a lot, even in battle, but at higher levels, but later on with characters having more hitpoints, its main use of memorizing becomes reducing rest times.
    * Entangle 3/5
    helps control mobs and tolerable casting time, though its save bonus reduces the spell's effectiveness. Mages get much better crowd control spells at low levels (even their level 1 spell Grease).
    * Doom 2.5/5
    very useful effects, but not worth it casting if its casting time is a whole round in your game setup (in which case its best use would be to have it in a spell trigger as a cleric/mage).


    BOTTOM TIER:

    * Shillelagh 1.5/5
    it does more damage than most mundane priest weapons but not considerably so. Besides, this slight advantage tends to become obsolete quite early in the game.
    * Detect EVil 1.5/5
    the spell is good at what it's supposed to do (low casting time, AoE, no saving throw), but unfortunately the game there are no situations where you have use for it.
    * Magical Stone 1/5
    Pathetic damage that doesn't scale with levels. Its could have been useful to interrupt spellcasting since there's no saving throw, if it didn't have a casting time of 4, which is too long for that purpose. Besides, the spell doesn't bypass magic resistance.

    I'm looking forward to your views regarding the second level spells: Aid, Barkskin, Chant, Charm Person/Mammal, Draw Upon Holy Might, Find Traps, Flame Blade, Goodberries, Resist Fire/Cold, Silence 15' Radius, Slow Poison, and Spiritual Hammer
    Post edited by Blackraven on
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    I feel command should be ranked higher simply due to just HOW useful it is in BG1. The fact that it is nearly instant cast and works against a majority of the low level enemies you'll want it again, plus allowing you to ignore thac0. If anything I think the biggest knock about it being a 4 instead of a 5 is due to the sleep spell for mages also being level 1.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited March 2014
    The problem with Command is that sleep is so much more powerful. The one great feature of Command is that you'll be able to interrupt spells with it, other than that it really isn't that good. One cleric can pretty much shut down an enemy spell caster in BG1 by using Command at the right moment.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    @Dragonspear, I'll give it a 3.5 rating, but for a spell to be top tier, its usefulness ought to extend beyond the lower level enemies you encounter in BG1 IMO.
    @SionIV, I completely agree with your reasoning, but I think at the same time that the mere fact that there's a more effective mage spell out there (which unlike Command is useless against higher level opponents btw) in itself doesn't justify a lowering of its rating.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689

    @Dragonspear, I'll give it a 3.5 rating, but for a spell to be top tier, its usefulness ought to extend beyond the lower level enemies you encounter in BG1 IMO.
    @SionIV, I completely agree with your reasoning, but I think at the same time that the mere fact that there's a more effective mage spell out there (which unlike Command is useless against higher level opponents btw) in itself doesn't justify a lowering of its rating.

    As you see most of the highly rated cleric spells are unique in some way or another. I wouldn't rate Command up there as it's actually not that good of a spell except for interrupting, and there are other spells that just does it better.

    Sanctuary is unique.
    Armor of faith is unique.
    Protection from evil is unique.
    Remove fear is amazing for a level 1 spell.

    Command isn't that good and sleep is so much better.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited March 2014
    Level 2 spells.

    Highest Tier

    Draw Upon Holy Might (5/5)


    Mid Tier

    Chant (3.5/5) - Its not extraordinary but compared to the rest of them its pretty good. At least in BGEE anyways.

    Hold Person (3.5/5) - Its good for its level but not astounding.

    Find Traps (3/5) - I really can't fault it but I can't praise it much either. It is very good at what it does but there are so many thieves in BGEE that what it does isn't all that needed. As for BG2EE its probably handy to have in some circumstances (like you are lacking a thief) but considering Imoen and Yoshimo both talk to you (without you generally having much choice in the matter) any lack of ability to find traps on your part is going to be self made. That is unless Yoshimo dies or gets imprisoned before you get Imoen and you are doing some sort of no-reload challenge (which I suppose would be a self made issue anyways).

    Silence (3/5) - Its more useful in BGEE than BG2EE because of the number of spellcasting enemies in the latter that have access to Vocalize.

    Resist Fire/Cold (3/5) - I can't really fault it. A duration of 1 round/level isn't outstanding but it does provide pretty good protection against Fire/Cold (for its level anyways) and takes up a spell level slot in a pretty lackluster spell level.

    Slow Poison (2.5/5) - Its good to have in BGEE but you'll rarely get poisoned in BG2EE.


    Low Tier


    Barkskin (2/5) - Its alright if you've got a Kensai or something that can't wear armor. But a Shield Amulet is just going to be easier to use in my opinion.

    Spiritual Hammer (2/5) - I gave it a higher rating earlier but on reflection I have to give it a lower rating. I'm only giving it a rating above 1 because of its usability as part of triggers when involving Polymorphed forms (like the spider). It also can get an enchantment level of 3 which is nice, though its damage isn't as good as the Flame Blades.

    Flame Blade (2/5) Same reason as Spiritual Hammer for the rating above 1. You can use it for a polymorphed creature but it hits as a normal weapon and doesn't confer any Thac0 bonus. Its damage is fine for a second level spell but it doesn't have much use beyond troll killing. Still, it does more damage Spiritual Hammer so I'll at least give it that.

    Charm Person or Mammal (2/5) - The problem with it is that it has that saving throw and on top of that a lot of the more difficult "animal" enemies you come across in BGEE (Vampire wolves and dread wolves for instance) aren't considered animals. So its usability is limited in that regard. Still, its one of the longer lasting charm spells so I think a 2 is fair.

    Aid (1/5) its healing sucks and I can get Bless if I want it from the Bless spell

    Goodberries 1/5 - Probably useful with some kind of scripting but otherwise they aren't worth it.

    Edit: I forgot...

    Know Alignment (0.5/5) - I actually have a feature request to get rid of its saving throw requirement

    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/30820/remove-the-save-vs-spell-required-for-know-alignment

    (Internally its #7605 )

    The spell was already very much a spell just to be used for roleplaying. But the fact that it requires a saving throw (the only divination spell that does that I can think of) makes whatever purpose it did have pretty much moot.
    Post edited by elminster on
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited March 2014
    My view on the level 2 spells:

    TOP TIER:

    * Draw Upon Holy Might 5/5
    Turns your cleric into a fighter (except for their APR), scales well with levels. At lower levels +1 to all physical stats is significant (if your character has decent base stats to begin with), making this a very nice spell from when you first get it till the end of the trilogy.
    * Slow Poison 4/5
    Poison attacks are relatively common throughout the game, and potentially lethal (especially in BG1, less so in BG2). This insta-cast spell is a lifesaver, and it's a good idea to always have one (or two) memorized. It would get a higher rating if it weren't a Bhaalspawan power for charnames with a neutral/good reputation.

    MID TIER:

    * Silence 15' Radius 3.5/5
    A successul casting effectively neutralizes enemy spellcasters. In BG1 it will succeed most of the times you use it, so in BG1 it would get a 5/5. However we need to take into account BG2/TOB as well. The severe saving thow penalty would make it about as devastating in those games, if it weren't for the fact that many mages memorize Vocalize, which can be cast silently (so a silenced mage can dispel their own silence). It remains useful for dealing with priests though.
    * Hold Person 3.5/5
    The reasoning here is similar to that re: Silence. Hold Person is devastating in BG1 and early SOA, but loses its effectiveness later on, when enemies will almost always save against the spell.
    * Resist Fire/Cold 3/5
    Fire damage is fairly common in the game (from hordes of kobolds shooting fire arrows to dragons and fire giants). The duration of the spell scales with priest levels. When combined with potions, characters can become 100% fireproof. There are many other ways to protect oneself against fire (potions, gear, and better spells), which keeps it from getting a better rating.
    * Chant 2.5/5
    A +1 bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls and saving throws for your party and a -1 penalty for your enemies does make a difference at lower levels, but only at lower levels (unless if combined with other buffs). A one round casting time requires it to be cast before battle.
    * Find Traps 2.5/5
    This spell is useless in a party with a competent thief. The dungeon crawling solo Cleric/Mage might have a use for this, so a to know when to protect himself against traps, with Mirror Images etc.
    * Aid 2.5/5
    Aid = Bless + 1d8 hitpoints. The advantage over bless is that the spell's duration increases with the priest's level, a severe drawback is the fact that it only affects a single target (unlike Bless which is an AoE spell). As with Bless its effects are insiginificant at higher levels, unless the spell is used in combination with other buffs.

    BOTTOM TIER

    * 2/5 Barkskin
    Both the AC received and the spell's duration scale with levels, but once this could be making a difference compared to regular armor, other, much better spells become available to the Druid (Ironskins)
    * Flameblade 2/5
    Only useful for killing trolls. In a party you won't need it even for that purpose if one of your companions has fire arrows or fire magic. A solo cleric might have some use for it.
    * Spiritual Hammer 2/5
    Not bad in itself, but once it doesn't scale quick enough to offer any advantages over the cater's main physical weapon. E.g. a level 7 cleric gets a +2 enchantment on his Spiritual Hammer, but he might as well stick to his Ashideena.
    * Charm Person/Mammal 1.5/5
    Its long casting time and the save bonus make this spell pretty much useless.
    * Know Alignment 1/5
    You'll never need this spell and if you ever wanted to try it out, be prepared for targets to save against the spell.
    * Goodberries 1/5
    Five goodberries per spell, that heal one hitpoint ach and have to be consumed individually, makes this spell unworthy of memorization ever.

    Edited typos.... my writing is sloppy :/
    Post edited by Blackraven on
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    edited March 2014
    Level 2:
    Top Tiers:
    -Draw Upon Holy Might (C): 5/5
    -Chant (C): 4/5 (nice bonus for party but 1 round casting time)
    -Hold Person (C): 4/5 (decent disabling spell)
    -Silent 15 Radius (C): 4/5 (area silence and save -5 penalty)

    Mid Tiers:
    -Flame Blade: 3.5/5 (troll killing and additional fire damage; +1 weapon and +4 Hit bonus)
    -Aid (C): 3/5 (cumulative with other bonuses; useful in BG1)
    -Barkskin: 3/5 (useful for anyone who cannot wear decent armor, max out at AC 1 at level 20)
    -Charm Person or Mammal (D): 3/5 (one of the few offensive spells a Druid can get, save +3 bonus)
    -Slow Poison: 3/5

    Low Tiers:
    -Resist Fire/Cold: 2/5 (50% fire and cold resistances but short duration)
    -Spiritual Hammer (C): 2/5 (+1 hit every 6 levels, but damage is the same as the normal War Hammer)
    -Find Traps: 1.5/5 (3 turns duration but still cannot disarm trap)
    -Goodberry (D): 1/5
    -Know Alignment: 1/5

    Edit: Bump Flame Blade by 0.5 because the +4 Hit bonus.
    Post edited by bbear on
  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 650
    edited March 2014
    I agree with all of your assessments.

    I used to cast Know Alignment all the time, but that is a story for the "Irrational Love" thread and certainly not for this one :)
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    @JLee, that's funny, a while back I posted the exact same in thing in that thread... Curious minds think alike ;)
  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 650
    @Blackraven‌ Lol, you must have been the one that granted it as a Bhaal ability? I thought that was brilliant. I have subsequently found the joys of eekeeper, the ultimate know alignment spell :D
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    Yes, that's it! And true, EEKeeper is awesome, no saving throw there....
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155

    Yes, that's it! And true, EEKeeper is awesome, no saving throw there....

    And let's make a promotion of @elminster‌'s thread!! :P to make Know Alignment overpowered and more gamebreaking that how it already is!
    And I have to admit that I added 150 Know Alignment to a PC of mine (a Sorcerer that studied psychology) once a while ago just to have fun!
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    @Elrandir, but instead of memorizing Goodberries why not memorize another Cure Light Wounds? You can heal more hitpoints at a time, and Cure Light Wounds makes you heal quicker while resting. Well maybe in case of very long intervals between resting, stored Goodberries might come in handy.
  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,664
    edited March 2014
    Because there are more useful 1st level spells. I used to think "Clerics heal. Mages deal damage." but I've mostly moved past that. (I still like fireballs...) Even for druids, there's more useful things to take. That said, a druid definitely has more uses for more CLWs than a cleric, I'll give you that. I just think that Goodberries are more useful than most of what a druid has for 2nd level. I like them a lot. But then, the only time I play with a CHARNAME who uses druid spells it's a cleric\ranger, and then he's got way better options. But for Jaheira, Goodberries is my gold standard. Basically, I'd make Goodberries 2\5. But that's just my personal opinion.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Meh I'm far too lazy to take that long eating berries. I'd rather just heal through resting. I'll take slow poison, maybe a charm spell or two, and maybe a few resist fires (at higher levels) over them.

    We can probably move on to level 3 spells.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited March 2014
    @BelgarathMTH, in my view a spell not only competes with other spells of the same level but also with spells of other levels before I form an opinion on its usefulness, so I disagree with your general line of reasoning.

    However in reference to this specific case, if you feel that an extra Cure Light Wounds would occupy a level 1 spell slot you'd rather reserve for Doom or Bless or perhaps Entangle, and therefore prefer to spend a level 2 spell slot on Goodberries rather than Slow Poison, Find Traps, Charm Person/Mammal or Resist Fire/Cold, then no one will be astonished by that I guess. An argument can be made for both views.
    Edit: I guess that my opinion might depend on the point of the game I'm at. If my druid has only one or two level 2 spell slots, I might pass up on Goodberries, and pick Slow Poison instead (what with all the spiders and arrows of biting). Later on, with more level 2 slots available, I might see some use for Goodberries. And even later, when characters have much higher hitpoints and suffer graver injuries 5 goodberry hitpoints won't make a difference anymore, so I'd phase out their use.
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    edited March 2014
    The problem with Find Traps is metagaming knowledge. Many players and I already know the placement of all the traps in the game.
  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,664
    @bbear‌ True, but it's very nice to have in situations where there are a lot of traps and you don't have a thief. There's a specific room in Durlag's Tower that I always think of. It has tons of traps, but if you guide your character the right way, you can walk past them. Much more easily done when you can see them.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited March 2014
    Yea I still wouldn't bother with goodberries. As long as you've got decent/good reputation potions aren't too expensive and they are plentiful. It takes you a full minute to gain 10 hit points for 1 character with goodberries. That is assuming you are using it like clockwork and its not counting the casting time of getting those berries. Since its a level 2 spell with Jaheira you won't even get it until you have a total of 8000 xp on her and even then you'll only get a single casting of it. Its just too time consuming and too much of a hassle for me given its benefits.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited March 2014
    Taking into account everyone's input, a "compromise" for a ranking of level 2 divine spells, could look like this:

    TOP TIER:

    * Draw Upon Holy Might 5/5
    Turns your cleric into a fighter (except for their APR), scales well with levels. At lower levels +1 to all physical stats is significant (if your character has decent base stats to begin with), making this a very nice spell from when you first get it till the end of the trilogy.

    MID TIER:

    * Chant 3.5/5
    A decent prebuff at the lower levels, later on only if combined with other buffs.

    * Hold Person 3.5/5
    Great in BG1, but less and less effective throughout SOA, as most enemies will save against the spell.

    * Silence 15' Radius 3.5/5
    As Hold Person great in BG1, but much less so in SOA not because enemies will save against but rather because enemy mages in SOA tend to have a Vocalize or two memorized.

    * Slow Poison 3.5/5
    Again a spell that is very useful in BG1, but less so in BG2/TOB, since poison damage is less common in those games. Nevertheless worth memorizing, just in case.

    * Find Traps 3/5
    Although it doesn't enable the cleric to disarm traps, this spell may help you party to at least avoid them. The spell has a long duration, and detects at a larger range than a thief's detect trap ability does.

    * Resist Fire/Cold 3/5
    Decent protection (especially in combination with gear, potions or other spells), especially against fire, which is fairly common in the games.

    BOTTOM TIER:

    * Aid 2/5
    Offers little more than the level 1 spell Bless (only 1d8 hitpoints, and with time longer duration). Unlike Bless it's a single target spell.

    * Barkskin 2/5
    Only useful for druids who can't wear any studded leather armor, let alone Ankheg armor. Examples would be the Shapeshifter or a Kensai/Druid. Its protection starts out mediocre, and once it scales up with levels gained, better protections become available.

    * Charm Person/Mammal 2/5
    This would have been a very nice druid spell if it had a shorter casting time, no save bonus, and if it also affected animals that are classified by the game as 'undead', such as dread wolves and vampiric wolves, or non-mammals such as spiders.

    * Goodberries 2/5
    A healing capacity of up to 5 hitpoints isn't impressive, but for druids who prefer to use their level 1 spell slots for other spells than Cure Light Wounds, memorizing Goodberries can be an alternative.

    * Flameblade 2/5
    Hits as a normal weapon and doesn't confer any thac0 bonus, so normally inferior to the weapon your character already wields. Useful for a polymorphed creature if you have the spell in a trigger (thanks @elminster), and for troll killing.
    EDIT: in the original game Flameblade hits as a +1 weapon and gives a +4 to bonus to thac0, which justifies a higher rating for the Flameblade spell. However in BGEE the spell has been fixed conform its description.

    * Spititual Hammer 1.5/5
    Same as Flameblade, except that he Spiritual Hammer won't kill trolls.

    * Know Alignment 1/5
    You never really need to know an NPC's alignment, and if you want to know anyway, chances the target saves vs the spell.

    Note: spells that have the same rating are categorizd alphabetically rather than hierarchically.

    -----------------------------------------------

    Next topic in this discussion is Level 3:

    Animate Dead, Holy Smite, Dispel Magic, Call Lightning, Summon Insects, Strength of One, Cure Medium Wounds, Invisibility Purge, Miscast Magic, Cure Disease, Glyph of Warding, Hold Animal, Protection from Fire, Remove Curse, Remove Paralysis, Rigid Thinking, Unholy Blight, Zone of Sweet Air.

    Looking forward to your views!


    EDIT: corrected commentary below Charm Person/Mammal
    Post edited by Blackraven on
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Dread Wolves and Vampiric wolves are actually considered undead. Which I think is the issue specifically with them and charm person and mammal.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited March 2014
    Thanks @elminster, I will correct this right away.
    Edit: next time I'll try if I can turn them with my cleric :)
Sign In or Register to comment.