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A Ranking of the Divine Spells? (Now discussing LEVEL 7 spells)

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  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited March 2014
    I might be remembering wrong, but doesn't Chaotic Command also protect against a demons gaze attack?
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    @SionIV, am not sure. On the internet I can't find the answer, and I don't have NI to check for any info.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited March 2014
    A consolidated ranking of level 5 divine spells.

    TOP TIER:

    * Chaotic Commands 5/5
    This spell grants the recipient immunity to Suggestion, Charm, Sleep, Hold, Panic, Feeblemind, Stun, Maze, Confusion and Psionic attacks. This is a sweeping protection of good duration (1 turn/level of the caster) that greatly increases the target's survivability in battle, especially if combined with items, spells or innate abilities that protect against movement impediments (Stun, Hold) and against Fear. It has a short casting time, and can be used on summons as well as party members. Note that Chaotic Commands can be dispelled.

    * Insect Plague 5/5
    This is a truly glorious spell for the Druid, the best of its level. It conjures up a swarm of insects that will first attack the target creature and then spread to attack up to five other enemies in the target creature's vicinity. Victims suffer a -2 penalty to both attack rolls and AC, 1 point of damage every two seconds, and a 100% chance of spell failure. In addition they must make saving throws vs. breath or run away in fear. (Note that most classes, except high level fighters, have lousy saves vs. breath.) The effects cannot be prevented by invisibility. The spell lasts a solid 6 rounds and cannot be dispelled. It has a casting time of 5, which can be be long enough for the Druid to get interrupted, but this is less likely to occur if the Druid is protected by Iron Skins.

    * Righteous Magic 5/5
    One of the best level 5 spells for Clerics (who don't have access to Insect Plague and Iron Skins). It adds 1 temporary hit point for every level of the caster, increases STR by 1 for every three levels of the caster to a maximum of 24, and casues the Cleric to inflict maximum damage with every hit. The first two effects aren't that special, and can be obtained with DUHM and Holy Power as well, but maximum damage during one turn for a level 10 Cleric (or during 2 two turns for a level 20 Cleric) is brutal of course. The combination of Holy Power for Fighter Thac0 (and why not extra hitpoints), DUHM for maximum physical stats, and Righteous Magic for full damage is a deadly one indeed.

    * Iron Skins 4.5/5
    This is the Druid's Stoneskin. It lasts for 12 hours and offers the caster one skin that absorbs one physical or magic damage attack, for every two levels of the caster. Ironskins isn't susceptible to a mage's Breach, but it can be removed with a successful Dispel Magic. A drawback is its long casting time (one round), so when a Druid gets stripped of his last 'iron skin' in battle he'll have a hard time successfully casting a second one (unlike a Mage who can easiy insta-cast a new Stoneksin on himself or use contingencies and triggers for this purpose). Nevertheless this a great prebuff for the Druid.

    * Magic Resistance 4/5
    This spell isn't really that good if you use it the way it's intended to. It offers a progressive +2% magic resistance up to 40% for a level 20 caster. The problem is that it sets magic resistance to the applicable percentage rather than adding that percentage to any magic resistance that character already has because of items or any innate magic resistance (Viconia, Monks, Wizard Slayers).
    The spell really shines though if used not on yourself or your party members but rather on highly magic resistant enemies. It always works as there's no save against the spell. Ironically the lower level the priest, the more effective the spell. (It's not for nothing that people consider this use to be cheesy.) Very useful for multiclass priests, who want to take on e.g. dragons relatively early in the game. For those players who are opposed to these tactics, a rating of 3 (mid tier status) would be mor appropriate.

    * True Seeing 4/5
    Many people may rate this a 5/5 spell, and I agree that it's excellent at what it does: dispelling illusory magic. However as there are other ways to accomplish the same effect, this spell won't be indispensable for all characters/parties. A thief's Detect Illusions has an indefinite duration and it works even while fighting (if you click to attack an enemy and then after that click on the Find Traps button, the latter ability stays active). Keldorn or any Inquisitor can use it as an innate ability, and mages have their own True Sight spell (though admittedly that one comes later than the priest's version). Still, you're definitely going to have much use for this spell if you don't have any of the aforementioned other means of dispelling illusions at your disposal.

    MID TIER:

    * Flame Strike 3.5/5
    This is a fine damage dealing spell, one of the few the Cleric has its disposal. 1d8 damage per level of the caster (save vs spell for half) can be very destructive at higher levels. Its drawbacks are the long casting time (8) and the fact that a target's magic resistance may cancel the effects, and the fact that not all enemies are equally susceptible to fire damage.

    * Greater Command 3/5
    This is simply an AoE version of the level 1 spell Command, albeit with a progressive duration depending on the caster's level. The further your character advances in the game, the tougher your enemies will become and the better their saving throws. A high level 'save negates effect' spell with no intrinsic save penalty, is simply unreliable to use (even in combination with Doom and/or Greater Malison), taking into account other options such as the cleric's great buffs, or the druid's Insect Plague. In its defense it must be said that its short casting time, AoE nature, and progressive duration make it one of the nicer 'save or else' spells.

    * Mass Cure 3/5
    This spell heals 1d8 hitpoints + 1/level of the caster on all companions who within the priest's sight. This is much better than the level 4 spell Cure Serious Wounds, and at higher caster levels (20+) also better than fellow level 5 spell Cure Critical wounds. In TOB it's great, although by that time you'll have even better options. Besides there are so many healing potions in the game both as loot and for sale, and so many fine level 5 spells, that this one to me remains to be a mid tier. A Druid can summon a nymph (level 4 spell) to cast this spell.

    * Pixie Dust 3/5
    This spell has the exact same effect as the mage's Invisibility 10' Radius, which is difficult to acquire in BG2EE unless you're a soreceror or a Chaotic Good mage. The spell allows your party to sneak their way to safety, or ambush their ambushers. Useful once you acquire it till deep in SOA, if these kind of tactics suit your playstyle.

    * Raise Dead 3/5
    You don't want to need this of course, and I don't normally memorize it preventively, but if you're in the wilderness of the Umar Hills, trapped in the Planar Sphere or lost somewhere in the Underdark, memorizing Raise Dead, resting and raising your fallen comade may well be your only option to get your companion back, at least until you get your hands on a Rod of Resurrection.

    * Cure Critical Wounds 2.5/5
    This spell heals 27 hitpoints on the target creature, which equals a potion of greater healing. Its long casting time doesn't make it very worthwhile to use in battle what with the risk of spell interruption or the target's death. It's wiser to rely on potions. As the game evolves Mass Cure will make this spell obsolete.

    BOTTOM TIER:

    * Animal Summoning II 2/5
    A long casting time of almost one round, to get 1 to 3 animals with 8 or less HD during three turns isn't very appealing even at the time when you first get this spell. If the summons were stronger, they would actually add some fighting power to you party. If buffed/hasted these summons can actually make a difference in BG. In SOA/TOB they're just distractions or invitations for enemy casters to waste a Death Spell.

    * Cause Critical Wounds 2/5
    27 damage isn't necessarily 'critical' for the enemies the average level 9+ priest is going to encounter. I can see a use for this spell if your party hasn't got the weaponry with the required enchantment to hit a certain enemy, so that they depend on spells to do the damage. But this would be an enemy that's better avoided till your party is better prepared for the fight. The good thing is that there's no saving throw against the spell.

    * Champion's Strength 2/5
    This spell sets the targeted creature's STR to 18/00 and gives it a +1 Thac0 bonus for every 3 caster levels. It lasts for 3 rounds/level of the caster. As long as this spell is in effect, the priest cannot cast any spells. For a spellcaster to temporarily give up his spellcasting ability, he should get something really good in return. This spell isn't. Nevertheless a Cleric/Thief may use this spell on his summons while (s)he remains at a distance, safely under the cover of stealth and non-detection until the spell wears off or the summoned ally gets killed.

    * Repulse Undead 2/5
    Useless for the singleclass Cleric, whose intrinsic Turn Undead ability does the same or even more, i.e. recruiting (evil cleric) or destroying (neutral/good cleric) undead. A multiclassed Cleric, whose Turn Undead ability isn't very reliable, might have use for this spell if he's beset by undead. The spellcasting time of 5 is a bit long though, the Cleric's casting might well get interrupted by a hit of one of the undead. The spell lasts one turn which should be sufficient for the Cleric to free himself, and there's no saving throw.

    * Slay Living 1/5
    This spell is worse than Greater Command, because it first requires a successful touch attack and then the target ceature still has a save vs spell, again with no penalty, to avoid instant death. A successful save vs spell makes the vinctim suffer a mere 2d6 + 9 damage, which is at best the equivalent of a decent hit with your weapon at this level. The spell can be dispelled after it has been cast and before the touch attack is made. It's instantly cast by the way.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Note: Note: spells that have the same rating are categorizd alphabetically rather than hierarchically.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    With this, we shall direct the discussion to the level 6 spells: Aerial Servant, Animal Summoning III, Blade Barrier, Bolt of Glory, Conjure Animals, Conjure Fire Elemental, Dolorous Decay, False Dawn, Fire Seeds, Harm, Heal, Physical Mirror, Sol's Searing Orb, Wondrous Recall. Your input will again be greatly appreciated.
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 349
    Level Six Divine Spells

    Top Tier:
    Aerial Servant: 5/5 - These guys are beasts! Tremendous damage-dealers, high HP, they last forever, and you'll still be summoning them alongside deva's.

    Summon Fire Elemental: 4.5/5 - The Druid's alternative to Aerial Servant, these guys are still quite handy and can do wonders with their immunities and with the added fire damage for disrupting skinned casters.

    Bottom Tier: All other level 6 spells. Face it. You will rarely, if ever, use a spell slot for anything else in Level 6, unless you are purposely ignoring Aerial Servant out of some feelings of guilt. The usefulness and disparity is just too great. Fire seeds? Who wants a level 6 crappy version of melf's minute meteors? False Dawn? Just Turn Undead! Harm/Heal? Bah. Physical Mirror? Ever heard of Reflection shield? Dolorous Decay? Pfft. How is this any better than poison really? Wondrous Recall? I call that "rest".

    Two level six spells are talking about Aerial Servant:

    Physical Mirror: Where is he?
    Fire seeds: Down by the creek, walking on water.
    False Dawn: You ever seen anything like that before?
    Wondrous Recall: Hell, I ain't never even heard of anything like that before.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    I really love Conjure animals, those polar bears might not be the most efficient summons, but with haste on them they have never let me down.
  • LoubLoub Member Posts: 471
    @ZaknafeinBaenre
    I, for one, find Harm immensely useful since it works on most bosses once they are idspelled of their protections.
    And Heal is great as a multi-purpose last-resort spell - cast on unwell members and they will be back on no time, use it on a contigency 10% to double your effective hitpoints, really.

    Aerial servant is also not as good as Skeletal Warriors as they do not have the same immunities and will often be turned against the party - they also have low hitpoints and are unlikely to survive more than one combat - the same applies to the Fire Elementals.

    Wondrous recall also does wonders for Cleric/Mages, since it will allow them to recharge their Flame Strikes and Holy Smites for more Spell Triggers (a level 14 Cleric/Mage will deal, on average, 99 damage to all evil foes in the area with a triple Holy Smite Trigger, more than enough to kill most mooks and mages)
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited March 2014
    The problem with heal is that the staff of resurrection does the same and instantly. It's not that expensive to charge up either.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited March 2014
    My suggestion for a ranking of the level 6 spells:

    TOP TIER:

    * Aerial Servant 5/5
    One of the best summons for clerics in the entire game. Aerial Servants start out invisible and are immune to normal weapons. Apparently they have 23 STR(!), are sturdy (16HD with 128 base hitpoints) and they deal good damage. Drawback are the long casting time (9) and the fact that they're susceptible to Death Spell (and Beholders' Death Ray). The trick is to exhaust a mage's Death Spells with lower level summoned critters, and then summon forth the Aerial Servant. The spell's duration of on turn/level is reasonable.

    * Conjure Fire Elemental 5/5
    Where the Cleric gets the Aerial Servant, the Druid gets this spell. It will always summon forth one 12HD Elemental always answers the summons, which in itself is a very useful summon with good resistances though certainly not as good as the Aerial Servant. But: there is a 35% chance that an additional 16 HD Greater Elemental appears and a 5% chance than an additional 20HD Elder Elemental is summoned.

    * Harm 4/5
    Successful use of this spell by the priest reduces the target creature's health to 1 hit point. There is no saving throw against the spell, but the priest must make a succesful touch attack within 2 rounds after casting the spell. If the priest lingers too long or misses the attack, the spell is wasted. Casting time is one round, which can make it tricky to use it in battle. However a well-buffed Cleric/Mage who has has the level 5 priest spell Magic Resistance (or the mage spell Lower Resistance) stored with Harm in a trigger may well take a dragon down in a round or two.

    * Heal 4/5
    This spell heals all damage, dispels Feeblemind, cures all diseases, blindness/deafness and any detrimental effects that spells or injuries may have brought upon mind of the recipient. It has a long casting time (9), which makes it less useful in the heat of battle. Also, the Rod of Resurrection does the same, sparing you a spell slot (or even two) once you acquire it.

    * Wondrous Recall 4/5
    This spell rememorizes two spells, up to level 5, that the priest has previously cast. It recalls the highest spell level spells that have been cast, going from the upper left spell to the bottom right spell in the spellbook. So if you've cast Holy Power (level 4 spell), Chaotic Commands (level 5 spell) and Righteous Magic, and you want another Holy Power - Righteous Magic combo, you'd have to erase Chaotic Commands from your "Memorized" page in your spellbook.

    MID TIER:

    * Blade Barrier 3/5
    Potentially devestating, this spell creates a barrier of blades around the caster that deal 8d8 damage to anyone in its area of effect. Target are allowed a saving throw vs. spell (with no penalty) to avoid all damage. The saving throw, together with a long casting time (9), makes the spell too unreliable to merit top tier status IMO.
    One devious strategy some players apply with this spell is to cast it while sanctuaried, and then have their cleric walk past different enemies without them responding (they don't even run).

    * Bolt of Glory 3/5
    Another damage dealing spell for Clerics, this one is particularly effective against undead (8d6 damage) and demons (10d6). The good thing is that it bypasseses magic resistance and will always hit. The bad thing is that it takes a long time to cast, and that with an unlucky roll you'll only deal 10 or 20 damage to a demon.

    * Conjure Animals 3/5
    Another reasonably good summoning spell. Casting it summons forth either one or two mountain bears. They're by no means as sturdy or damaging as the Aerial Servant, but still durable, especially if properly buffed, and more useful than the Animal Summoning III summons.

    * False Dawn 2.5/5
    A decent anti-undead spell for clerics. It inflicts 6d6 damage to all undead in the AoE (30 ft. radius), and it also confuses them for one round. The long casting time is a disadvantage. Its damage may suffice to bring down lower HD undead, that might as well be turned (or even recruited/destroyed) by a single class Cleric. It takes more than a False Dawn to defeat the higher HD undead, such as vampires. Still, the AoE character of the spell may make it worthwhile to memorize for a multiclass Cleric if you know you're going to deal with undead.

    * Sol's Searing Orb 2.5/5
    Another anti-undead spell. This one creates a glowing stone in the caster's hand that must be thrown within one round after casting at a target. Against undead the spell deals 12d6 fire damage and causes blindnss for 12 rounds, a successful save vs spell reduces the damage to 9d6 and limits the duration of the blindness effects to 6 rounds. Against a particularly powerful undead enemy, this spell can be useful. Generally good-aligned clerics are better off using Holy Smite, and single class clerics might be more successful simply using their Turn Undead ability. Against non-undead the spell is almost useless.

    BOTTOM TIER:

    * Animal Summoning III 2/5
    This isn't a bad spell per se. It's a notable improvement over Animal Summoning II for instance. However the 4-9HD summons get dwarfed by the Fire Elemental and the Aerial Servant. The only possible advantage of this spell could be that it offers a larger quantity of summons, which may help distract and ocuppy different enemies at the same time.

    * Fire Seeds 2/5
    This druid spell creats 4 fire "seeds" in the caster's inventory, that can be passed on to a party member if desired. When thrown at a target they cause a fireball effect, all creatures in the affected area, a 20 ft. radius from the target, suffer 2d8 fire damage, with a save vs. spell for half damage. With the risk of friendly fire, and the limited damage the seeds inflict, this isn't a great spell. Useful perhaps for permanently killing multiple 'near death' trolls, but even that can be done by many other means.

    * Physical Mirror 2/5
    This spell reflicts missile attacks back to the attackers. This would have been a marvellous spell in the first part of BG1, but as the game progresses ranged attacks become less of a threat and less common as well. So the spell comes a bit too late in the game to be very useful for my taste.

    * Dolorous Decay 1.5/5
    This druid spell, if succesful, has two effects: it slows the targeted creature for two rounds (no save), and it inflicts 1 damage every second until the target has recived 50 points of damage but only if thet fail a save vs. poison with a -2 penalty. The -2 base penalty, magnified by Doom / Greater Malison actually gives it a reasonable chance of obtaining the poison effect. I think it's not worth the trouble though, as the level 5 spell Insect Plague has a similar effect (though causing less damage) on more targets than one, making this spell redundant imo.

    EDIT: Corrections of typos/grammar.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155

    * False Dawn 2.5/5
    A decent anti-undead spell for clerics. It inflicts 6d6 damage to all undead in the AoE (30 ft. radius), and it also confuses them for one round. The long casting time is a disadvantage. Its damage may suffice to bring down lower HD undead, that might as well be turned (or even recruited/destroyed) by a single class Cleric. It takes more than a False Dawn to defeat the higher HD undead, such as vampires. Still, the AoE character of the spell may make it worthwhile to memorize for a multiclass Cleric if you know you're going to deal with undead.

    Watch out because it also harms Hexxat (yeah, it happened to me, even the Confusion got applied :P), strange thing since Sunray don't affects her.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited March 2014
    I'd probably give Fire Elemental a 4.5, Conjure Animals a 3.5, and Fire Seeds a 1, but otherwise I think I agree with @Blackraven's assessment.

    Also (and this is more of a random fact note) Aerial Servants are immune to Maze. I'm not certain why they were granted this but they are for some reason.
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    edited March 2014
    elminster said:

    Yea the full list (off the top of my head) would be it grants immunity to...

    Charm, Sleep, Hold, Feeblemind, Stun, Confusion, Panic, and Maze.

    I heard that Fire Seed can be combined with Greater Deathblow. It's like the combo with the (ultra rare in BG2) Arrow of Detonation.

    For Physical Mirror, you can used this to kill the Ravager! Ravager has a throwing dagger attack and can be reflected back at itself. All you need to do is run in circle to avoid those boneblade swords. Amelssyan also has a range attack, but the reflected attack is weapon ineffective against her.

    @elminster: Chaotic Commands does NOT protect against fear (at least in BG2 vanilla). So what is this panic status it guards against?
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited March 2014
    Yea anything can be combined with greater deathblow but you only get 4 seeds each use and frankly if you have critical strike you can go through enemies really quickly anyways. You have to be way too careful with the ability for it to be worth using with a deathblow.

    Horror, Cloak of Fear, Symbol: Fear, and any other spell that I can't think of at the moment that uses panic.
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 349
    Does anyone know if Bolt of Glory combines with Righteous Magic effectively to do maximum damage?
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317

    Does anyone know if Bolt of Glory combines with Righteous Magic effectively to do maximum damage?

    No it wouldn't.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited March 2014
    I think, and in my humble opinion, Aerial Servant is bugged, or not properly implemented. In PnP rules, it does 4-32 damage per hit, and has 23 STR for grabbing and carrying purposes, but I think in PnP the damage is already from the unusual strength of the creature. Imagine, a normal man can do 1d2 damage with an unarmed strike, this beast is a monster with an unusual body and massive strength so it does 4d8 damage per hit instead. Seems plausible. But BG2 gives the Aerial Servant a 4d8 weapon and 23 STR, so it does +11 damage. (with +5 to hit) I think this is just too much. 4d8+11 per hit equals 15-43 damage, way overkill.

    This is a problem with golems too. In PnP a flesh golem has 19 str and does 2d8 damage. This is not a base damage, this damage is already from his strength and unusual form. (a normal fist does 1d2 damage so a flesh golem's fist does 2d8) But BG gives them both 2d8 weapon and 19 str and the beast ends up doing 2d8+7 damage, waaay too much for a low level character to survive. In monster manual, when a monster has damage bonus from its strength the text says 'the monster deals +x extra damage when attacking with a weapon due to strength.' So say, if an Aerial Servant uses a longsword it should do 1d8+11 damage alright. But its own natural attack (pummeling, grabbing and crushing) is a special damage which is already quite beefy due to its natural strength, hence 4d8 damage.

    I fix these by editing the weapons of these monsters so that they don't receive damage bonuses from strength in my game. This makes Aerial Servant a more balanced summon. And golems don't do ridiculous amounts of damage. (though they still can do a lot)
    Post edited by lunar on
  • MonoCanallaMonoCanalla Member Posts: 291

    You guys should update a summary at the begining of the thread

    A summary? Could you explain?

    What I could do when this discussion has ended, is paste all the consolidated rankings per level into the first post. As a reference. But I'm not sure if that's what you'd be interested in.

    i love to read all the thread, but to be organized and perhaps in needs of a quick overlook of what spell to use in your game, why not putting all together in the first message of this thread?
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317

    You guys should update a summary at the begining of the thread

    A summary? Could you explain?

    What I could do when this discussion has ended, is paste all the consolidated rankings per level into the first post. As a reference. But I'm not sure if that's what you'd be interested in.

    i love to read all the thread, but to be organized and perhaps in needs of a quick overlook of what spell to use in your game, why not putting all together in the first message of this thread?
    Its possible there wouldn't be enough room. There is a word/space limit on posts.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    elminster said:



    Its possible there wouldn't be enough room. There is a word/space limit on posts.

    Also if I used spoilers? If that's the case, all we could do is make a new thread with 8 posts: each giving one level ranking.
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    It's worth noting that Fire elementals hit as +4 weapons, making them one of the few summons who can damage highly-immune enemies. It's not always useful, but IIRC they have the highest enchantment bonus of any summon apart from HLA summons. Devas definitely hit as +5 with their Mace of Disruption +2, I'm not sure what Planetars hit as.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    All of the 6th level mage elemental summons, as well as the priest Fire Elemental, Aerial Servant and Earth Elemental, hit as though they had +4 weapons.

    Which reminds me. The Mountain Bear summoned by the Conjure Animal spell (as well as potentially the Animal Summoning III spell if that happens to be the one you summon) has 3APR. I believe it also hits as a +3 weapon but it might be something lower. Anyways, that is actually why I would increase it to 3.5. Besides the possibility of summoning more than one bear with the spell its main advantage over the Aerial Servant and Fire Elemental is that it gets multiple attacks per round (and I believe still has 18/100 strength).
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317

    elminster said:



    Its possible there wouldn't be enough room. There is a word/space limit on posts.

    Also if I used spoilers? If that's the case, all we could do is make a new thread with 8 posts: each giving one level ranking.
    I'm not certain how it works entirely but I do know that spoiler tags are just going to add characters. So technically I suppose on a marginal level it would give you less writing to work with.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    Well I might give it a try once this discussion has come to an end.
  • HerrderGezeitenHerrderGezeiten Member Posts: 139
    Wondrous Recall 5/5 at last one memorised at any time.
    Every spell prior to that (level5 or lower) not memorised but twice usable.
    You can`t memorise all, but you maybe can Recall it.

    Raise Death ? Chaotic Commands ? Cure Disease ? Death Ward ? Dispel Magic ? Free Action ? Lesser Restoration ? Mass Cure ? Negative Plane Protection ? Neutralise Poison ? Protection from Fire ? Protection from Lightning ? Remove Curse ? Silence, 15' Radius ? True Seeing ?,.......

    You need it? You have it!

    ---

    Cleric/Mage 6/5 use it right and have fun.

    Every Spell in your Spellbook Level 5 or, lower Cleric or Mage in an Instant.
    Insane amount of Spells for almost anything you need.
    (2 or 3 of them and I go Dragon killing with almost no other Preparation,..)

    Flexible to no End, even when you didn't fight, you can memorise some identify with it.
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Wondrous Recall is indeed a very useful spell, but possibly because level 5 is such a good spell level for Divine Casters.
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
    Hmmm... it seems Chaotic Commands should be rated at least 7/5 if not more:
    in D&D 3rd edition its effects are reproduced by an EIGHTH level spell!
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited March 2014
    Below you can find a consolidated ranking of level 6 divine spells. I've processed your comments in the ranking I posted yesterday.

    TOP TIER:

    * Aerial Servant 5/5
    One of the best summons for clerics in the entire game. Aerial Servants start out invisible and are immune to normal weapons. They have 23 STR(!), 5 Thac0, a 4d8 unarmed attack (apparently) which hits as a +4 weapon, are sturdy (16HD with 128 base hitpoints) and they deal good damage. Drawbacks are the long casting time (9) and the fact that they're susceptible to Death Spell (and Beholders' Death Ray). They are immune to Maze though. The trick is to exhaust a mage's Death Spells with lower level summoned critters, and then summon forth the Aerial Servant. The spell's duration of on turn/level is reasonable.

    * Conjure Fire Elemental 4.5/5
    Where the Cleric gets the Aerial Servant, the Druid gets this spell. It will always summon forth one 12HD Elemental, which in itself is a very useful summon with good resistances, though certainly not as powerful as the Aerial Servant. But: there is a 35% chance that an additional 16 HD Greater Elemental appears and a 5% chance than an additional 20HD Elder Elemental is summoned. Unlike the mage's elemental summons, the druid's fire elemental will never turn against your party. Like the Aerial Servant the Fire Elementals' attacks hit as +4 weapons.

    * Wondrous Recall 4.5/5
    This spell rememorizes two spells, up to level 5, that the priest has previously cast. It recalls the highest spell level spells that have been cast, going from the upper left spell to the bottom right spell in the spellbook. So if you've cast Holy Power (level 4 spell), Chaotic Commands (level 5 spell) and Righteous Magic, and you want another Holy Power - Righteous Magic combo, you'd have to erase Chaotic Commands from your "Memorized" page in your spellbook. Since level 5 has so many great spells, trading in one level 6 slot for two level 5 slots, can be a very good bargain if you use this spell wisely.

    * Harm 4/5
    Successful use of this spell by the priest reduces the target creature's health to 1 hit point. There is no saving throw against the spell, but the priest must make a succesful touch attack within 2 rounds after casting the spell. If the priest lingers too long or misses the attack, the spell is wasted. Casting time is one round, which can make it tricky to use it in battle. However a well-buffed Cleric/Mage who has has the level 5 priest spell Magic Resistance (or the mage spell Lower Resistance) stored with Harm in a trigger may well take a dragon down in a round or two.

    * Heal 4/5
    This spell heals all damage, dispels Feeblemind, cures all diseases, blindness/deafness and any detrimental effects that spells or injuries may have brought upon mind of the recipient. It has a long casting time (9), which makes it less useful in the heat of battle. Also, the Rod of Resurrection does the same, sparing you a spell slot (or even two) once you acquire it.

    MID TIER:

    * Conjure Animals 3.5/5
    Another good summoning spell. Casting it summons forth either one or two mountain bears. They're not as sturdy or damaging as the Aerial Servant, but still durable, especially if properly buffed, and certainly more useful than the Animal Summoning III summons. Besides the advantage of possibly summoning two rather than one ally, the bears have 3 attacks per round, which can be great help in stripping mages of their Stoneskins or similar protections. They have 72 base hitpoints and good STR of 18/00. This helps improve their Thac0 (base is 11) and their damage dealing capacity.

    * Blade Barrier 3/5
    Potentially devestating, this spell creates a barrier of blades around the caster that deal 8d8 damage to anyone in its area of effect. Target are allowed a saving throw vs. spell (with no penalty) to avoid all damage. The saving throw, together with a long casting time (9), makes the spell too unreliable to merit top tier status IMO.
    One devious strategy some players apply with this spell is to cast it while sanctuaried, and then have their cleric walk past different enemies without them responding (they don't even run).

    * Bolt of Glory 3/5
    Another damage dealing spell for Clerics, this one is particularly effective against undead (8d6 damage) and demons (10d6). The good thing is that it bypasseses magic resistance and will always hit. The bad thing is that it takes a long time to cast, and that with an unlucky roll you'll only deal 10 or 20 damage to a demon.

    * False Dawn 2.5/5
    A decent anti-undead spell for clerics. It inflicts 6d6 damage to all undead in the AoE (30 ft. radius), and it also confuses them for one round. The long casting time is a disadvantage. Its damage may suffice to bring down lower HD undead, that might as well be turned (or even recruited/destroyed) by a single class Cleric. It takes more than a False Dawn to defeat the higher HD undead, such as vampires. Still, the AoE character of the spell may make it worthwhile to memorize for a multiclass Cleric if you know you're going to deal with undead.
    Note: be careful with casting this spell near Hexxat: it's likely to harm and even confuse her!

    * Sol's Searing Orb 2.5/5
    Another anti-undead spell. This one creates a glowing stone in the caster's hand that must be thrown within one round after casting at a target. Against undead the spell deals 12d6 fire damage and causes blindnss for 12 rounds, a successful save vs spell reduces the damage to 9d6 and limits the duration of the blindness effects to 6 rounds. Against a particularly powerful undead enemy, this spell can be useful. Generally good-aligned clerics are better off using Holy Smite, and single class clerics might be more successful simply using their Turn Undead ability. Against non-undead the spell is almost useless.

    BOTTOM TIER:

    * Animal Summoning III 2/5
    This isn't a bad spell per se. It's a notable improvement over Animal Summoning II for instance. However the 4-9HD summons get dwarfed by the Fire Elemental and the Aerial Servant. The only possible advantage of this spell could be that it offers a larger quantity of summons, which may help distract and ocuppy different enemies at the same time.

    * Fire Seeds 2/5
    This druid spell creats 4 fire "seeds" in the caster's inventory, that can be passed on to a party member if desired. When thrown at a target they cause a fireball effect, all creatures in the affected area, a 20 ft. radius from the target, suffer 2d8 fire damage, with a save vs. spell for half damage. With the risk of friendly fire, and the limited damage the seeds inflict, this isn't a great spell. Useful perhaps for permanently killing multiple 'near death' trolls, but even that can be done by many other means.
    One nifty use that can be made of the Fire Seeds is to have the druid hand the seeds to a character with the poison weapon ability, have the latter poison the seeds and throw them to a group of enemies. The seeds will explode and cause the poison effect upon all affected enemies (much like poisoning arrows of detonation, which in BG2 are very rare).

    * Physical Mirror 2/5
    This spell reflicts missile attacks back to the attackers. This would have been a marvellous spell in the first part of BG1, but as the game progresses ranged attacks become less of a threat and less common as well. So the spell comes a bit too late in the game to be very useful for my taste.
    Note: A very situational (but apparently also very effective) use for this spell is to have the Ravager kill himself with his own throwing dagger (which can be reflected back to him). All you need to do is run in circles to avoid melee attacks.

    * Dolorous Decay 1.5/5
    This druid spell, if succesful, has two effects: it slows the targeted creature for two rounds (no save), and it inflicts 1 damage every second until the target has recived 50 points of damage but only if thet fail a save vs. poison with a -2 penalty. The -2 base penalty, magnified by Doom / Greater Malison actually gives it a reasonable chance of obtaining the poison effect. I think it's not worth the trouble though, as the level 5 spell Insect Plague has a similar effect (though causing less damage) on more targets than one, making this spell redundant imo.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Note: Note: spells that have the same rating are categorizd alphabetically rather than hierarchically.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Up for discussion are now the level 7 spells: Confusion, Conjure Earth Elemental, Creeping Doom, Earthquake, Finger of Death, Fire Storm, Gate, Greater Restoration, Holy Word, Nature's Beauty, Regeneration, Resurrection, Shield of the Archons, Sunray, Symbol: Death, Symbol: Fear, Symbol: Stun, Unholy Word.

    Because of work I won't have time today to post my suggestion for a ranking. I'll do so tomorrow. Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to your views.

    EDIT: added second paragraph to commentary on Fire Seeds.
    Post edited by Blackraven on
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited March 2014
    Sunray (5/5) - Most logical people would rate this lower. After all Turn Undead can do what this does and probably more and you probably don't have to worry about as much. Also Daystar can do what it does (it casts a level 10 version of it). However, for a spell that will blow apart any undead I really can't fault it. Also it looks awesome when cast.

    Shield of the Archons (4.5/5) Contrary to its description it doesn't protect against Remove/Dispel Magic. Not doing this is the only reason I'm not giving it a 5 (I mean it says it does it so don't fault me for judging it accordingly on not doing what it says it does). It however will not be removed by Dispel/Remove Magic, so that is a plus. If you are looking for something to protect your druid/cleric from single target spells then this is fantastic.

    Nature's Beauty (4.5/5) - the casting time isn't amazing and the range could be better (its range is actually better than some might think- maybe half that of a Sunfire). Still, provided you get through any magic resistance its guaranteed to blind and possibly even kill. Best part is that using it doesn't break invisibility. So you can use Pixie Dust (or some other means of invisibility), walk right up to an a bunch of enemies (assuming they can't see you/doesn't cast True Sight) and they will be blinded (or dead). The range is such either way that you can very much cast it while being behind your fighters (and not even right behind either there is a bit of leeway). Very few enemies are immune to blindness, which is what makes this spell as useful as it is and the biggest reason I gave it such a high score. The only reason I didn't give it a 5 was because it doesn't bypass magic resistance. At the point when you get this spell thats something that is going to be increasingly more common.

    Greater Restoration (4.5/5) - I know what you are thinking. Elminster's off his rocker, past his best before date, nuttier than a fruitcake. While thats probably all true this is basically the ultimate heal spell. Fast casting, heals a variety of wounds and status effects (poison, level drain, feeblemind, disease, panic, and confusion). Its basically a heal spell merged with a lessor restoration spell. Only reason I didn't give it a 5/5 (and originally that was the number I gave when I started writing this) is because as far as I'm aware it doesn't remove blindness, hold or stun. Hold and stun are probably two of the more common and annoying status effects you encounter during the middle of a difficult fights, and while you can protect against them in advance with Chaotic Commands it would have been really great if it worked on at least those two effects.

    Earthquake (4.5/5) - 6 to save vs spell or the affected creature falls unconscious for 4 rounds? Yes please. Sure it can work on your guys...but thats part of the fun!

    But seriously only the first quake knocks out and you can move in for the kill after it. The save penalty means that a good percentage of enemies (including oddly enough Earth Elementals) will be knocked out. You can even have your party members avoid being knocked unconscious by casting Chaotic Commands on them. Finally, the second and third quakes do pretty minimal amounts of damage and there is a good chance that your guys will save against them anyways. It doesn't bypass magic resistance however so that certainly hurts it.

    Regeneration (4.5/5) - The only fault I can give this spell is duration. The 18 health/round regeneration is by far the best regeneration you'll find anywhere.

    Fire Storm (4.5/5) - Its damage is decent but what is really great about it is that it bypasses magic resistance. While fire resistance is reasonably common I've found even just casting one of these (with some patience) to be very effective at leaving the enemy you are about to fight with very little in the way of health left.

    Conjure Earth Elemental (4/5) - I wish they had made this a 6th level spell. The problem is that you just aren't likely to get many of them to cast. Until level 15 as a druid or a Ranger(x)-> Cleric(17) you won't get any more than one of these. Overall you are probably better off sticking with Fire Elementals.

    Creeping Doom (4/5) - In some respects its better than Insect Plague because it does more damage, more frequently, and as a result it can peel away Mirror Images and Stoneskin skins at twice the rate. It has the same casting time but only half the duration of Insect Plague. Since its got some heavy competition so overall I'd say stick with Insect Plague.

    Symbol: Stun (4/5) - Its -4 to save vs spell means it can be pretty good for disabling a number of enemies in a group. Especially if you are able to cast more than one of them. It can also be used if you are planning an ambush for an enemy. That said like all they symbol spells it has the weakness of also working potentially on your own party members.

    Its one of the few spells that cause stun, though unfortunately (and I know this is probably getting tiring to hear) it doesn't bypass magic resistance. So you may run into some issues getting it to work because of that.


    Mid Tier


    Holy Word (3.5/5) - Its actually pretty common to find enemies that this can be used to slow and give a good casting failure too. Unfortunately it doesn't typically bypass magic resistance, making its usability on a practical level much less than it really aught to be.

    If you put aside the magic resistance issue most demons you come across (at least in non-watcher's keep SoA) fall into the level 10-13 level, though you wouldn't think that. So this potentially makes it very difficult for them to cast spells (50-75% chance of failure) and the possibility of even slowing them. It also has a very quick casting time. Most Drow you come across are evil and also fall between levels 10-12, so this provides another option against them. Chances are this spell can be used to slow any creature with Drow, Shadow, Fiend, Demon, Nabassu, or Tan'ari in its name (though the Lesser Demon Lord in the Underdark is too high a level for you to do anything more than cause 50% spellcasting failure). It will also work on slowing down and giving 75% spell failure to Gauth's. Beholders, Elder Orbs, and Kuo-Toa will be immune to it because they are immune to slow (not for level reasons).

    On a plus side its very quick casting. So if it fails you have an extra few seconds (compared to another spell you may have cast) to run like heck :p

    Finger of Death (3.5) - Its a solid single target kill spell. But I'm of the opinion that there are better choices for this level.

    Gate (3.5/5) - One redeeming thing about this version of the spell is that it casts at twice the rate as the Arcane version. Still, I'm not really of the opinion that its worth the trouble. Its worth noting that the Pit Fiend it creates is immune to +2 and lower weapons, has 50% magic resistance, 100% fire resistance, is immune to poison, charm, feeblemind, confusion, polymorph and panic, regenerates at a rate of 2hp/round, hits as though it was a +4 weapon, and has invisibility detection by script.

    Symbol: Fear (3/5) - Save vs spell at -4 makes this at least a worthy spell to discuss since it can be used potentially for ambushes. Unfortunately at this stage traps will do a better job. I'm not really sure if enemies would be more or less likely to be immune to panic compared to stun, but personally I'd rather have my enemies stunned then running around.


    Lower Tier


    Resurrection (2/5) - Its just not all that useful since there is the Rod of Resurrection for healing party members/restoring the dead and Greater Restoration if you want to heal someone quickly.

    Symbol: Death (2/5) - Save vs death with no penalty. Hmm...pass. If you throw enough of these and are facing weakened/lower health/no resistant enemies I'm sure it will work at some point. But otherwise it seems situational.

    Unholy Word (2/5) - You rarely run into any good enemies and if you do then Unholy Blight is probably going to be more useful (or at least it would be better to take it over this because there are good level 7 spells you could be using). It could work but its going to be situational at best.

    Confusion (1/5) - I'm not giving it a terrible rating because the spell itself is terrible, but because its a decent 4th level mage spell that has been put as a 7th level priest spell. Pass on it.

    Edit: Just editing to give better clarity.
    Post edited by elminster on
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 349
    For a decade I have yet to figure out why confusion is a level 7 priest spell, of the same difficulty as pulling a pit fiend out of the gates of hell or causing an earthquake, when it is a level mage spell and there is a level 5 mage spell called chaos that is pretty much the same thing. Why oh why?
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317

    For a decade I have yet to figure out why confusion is a level 7 priest spell, of the same difficulty as pulling a pit fiend out of the gates of hell or causing an earthquake, when it is a level mage spell and there is a level 5 mage spell called chaos that is pretty much the same thing. Why oh why?

    Alphabetically its the first spell in the fourth level. They pointed to it and said...that one! :p
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Do fire seeds work like an arrow of detonation? That is, can a high lvl warrior combine them with power attack/greater death blow to insta-kill or stun multiple enemies in one throw?
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