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A Ranking of the Divine Spells? (Now discussing LEVEL 7 spells)

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  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    @Elrandir, good point about the lightning bolts... Lots of thunder and lightning in BG:EE outdoor areas, more than in vanilla. I've even heard tell of the mighty Drizzt falling to lightning!
  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,664
    *laughs* Now that IS a different ranking than mine. And I'm glad you interpreted it in a way that makes me sound smart. I was thinking about the spell. XD I always play with weather off because the rain sound effect annoys me.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited March 2014
    @Elrandir: LOL... ok I misinterpreted you on that one. :P

    I notice a couple of remarkable differences. But in most cases I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. For example I think I might have been a bit harsh on Neutralize Poison or a bit too lyrical about Death Ward (which is only situationally useful). And Cloak of Fear might be useful against swarms of lower level critters, e.g. (SCS) kobolds, who don't have good saves. Or that time when I was invisible but surrounded by enemies in the bandit tent, a Cloak of Fear might have worked wonders..

  • vangoatvangoat Member Posts: 212


    * Hold Animal 1/5
    Once you get this, animals won't be a threat to your party anymore.

    I found hold animal useful in the druid grove before you battle the 3 druids at the entrance to Faldorn's. There's a group of about 6 bears there and they move at a decent speed with SCS.

    But yeah, being useful once in the entire game isn't really worth more than a 1/5 haha


  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    I feel like Defensive Harmony should be at least a 4/5.
    It is basically a free cloak/ring of protection +2 for your ENTIRE party for a level for spell that has a 1 casting time. Its not game changing but it is pretty damn useful.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Top Tier

    Holy Power (5/5) - Gives a fighter's Thac0, a hitpoint bonus, and 18/100 strength. Great when combined with Draw Upon Holy Might and Righteous Magic. Of course if you are using it on a priest with 19 strength then there are consequences (but they are negligable if you have both Draw Upon Holy Might and Righteous Magic available).

    Protection from Evil, 10' Radius (4/5) - Its a long lasting party buff that gives a good buff. Looks like the description for the spell (at least for me) no longer makes a mention of a saving throw bonus granted by it. I also couldn't find anything in Near Infinity that confirms that you get any bonus to saving throws.


    Mid Tier:

    Mental Domination (3.5/5) - I'm kind of torn here. On the one hand personally I've never been hugely into charm spells, but on the other there technically isn't anything better than this spell for charming. It casts slightly faster than the 5th level mage spell (and is reasonably fast casting) and otherwise has the exact same effects. It works on a whole variety of different creatures, has an acceptable duration, and it gives a -2 to enemies trying to save against it. You can also pick this up earlier in BGEE compared to the 5th level mage spell. I'm giving it a bump because it makes a higher level mage spell look worse.

    Free Action (3.5/5) - Yes, yes...it stops haste. Honestly I rarely use it because of that. But it can be useful if combined with Web (when its cast on any summons you want to use).

    Defensive Harmony (3.5/5) - I like it because its quick casting and has a good aoe buff. But its duration sucks so I'm keeping it in the mid tier.

    Call Woodlands Beings (3.5/5) - If they were to make it so that turning off party AI turns off the Nymph's AI then I would give this spell a 5/5. As it stands now though I often find it casting spells that I don't want cast or that are ineffective.

    (Horrible flashback from younger days) "No nymph don't cast that. What are you doing? No Hold Person isn't going to work on a dragon. Ohh crap its coming for us...well...you are on your own!" *runs away and orders nymph to attack the dragon*

    Death Ward (3/5) - Its useful when going up against higher level mages/liches/beholders. It won't help your summons against a Death Spell though.

    Farsight (3/5) - I use this in ToB a lot, which I suppose is kind of weird. The maps tend to be quite a bit smaller and the use of the spell does present some opportunities I might not otherwise have. Its an alternative to Wizard Eye that can't be countered (but is less convenient).

    Lesser Restoration (3/5) - Handy spell to have on you especially when dealing with vampires.

    Negative Plane Protection (2.5/5) - useful for "ohh crap its a vampire" moments late at night in Athkatla. It has a quick casting time so it provides a quick, if temporary protection that buys you some time.

    Neutralize Poison (2.5) - Like Blackraven wrote its almost like a Cure Disease, Cure Light Wounds, and Slow Poison spell made into one spell.


    Lower Tier


    Animal Summoning I (2/5) - They are decent in BGEE but in BG2EE they end up being a useful sacrifice for making an opponent waste a Death Spell.

    Poison (2/4) - It would be a much better spell if it did its damage more often than once a round and if it didn't have a save with no penalty. The higher level poison damage won't be accessible to a druid until much later so it really is theoretically going to get the most use from a cleric. Fortunately there are better spell picks for that cleric.

    Cure Serious Wounds (2/5) - Lets see a spell that heals only 3 more than Cure Medium Wounds, takes longer to cast, and takes up a higher level spell slot. Yea...I'm being generous with a 2.

    Cloak of Fear (2/5) - You actually don't have to be right up next to an enemy for this to work. I'd say its radius is roughly half that of a Sunfires. That said its no better than a Horror spell. In fact its actually worse.

    Cure Serious Wounds (2/5) - The first time you'll come across a wound spell and yet its still not worth it.

    Protection from Lightning (1.5/5) - The only time I use this spell is when I'm playing a solo game and I have to open up the chest in the bandit camp. I'm literally giving it an extra .5 just for that lol. Other than that I don't think I ever feel the need to use it.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486

    I feel like Defensive Harmony should be at least a 4/5.
    It is basically a free cloak/ring of protection +2 for your ENTIRE party for a level for spell that has a 1 casting time. Its not game changing but it is pretty damn useful.

    Thanks for your input Boo. Well the spell offers the AC bonus of such a ring/cloak, not the saving throws. But I concede that this effect shouldn't be underestimated. I've used it a lot on my skeletons. (Though not in my current run, since a Strifeleader has no access to this spell.)
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    I'm just a huge fan of short casting time I guess. Especially in difficult stressful battles, whenever I hear "Incertus, Pulcher, Imperio" I just go "HURRY UP BEFORE I DIE"
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited March 2014
    @booinyoureyes Yep, most cleric spells take way too long to cast to my taste. I understand that with prebuffing this doesn't matter too much, but there are also many spells I like to cast in battle. And if I do cast in battle, and I see my cleric gesturing and chanting, for what seem be ages, I'm all like "Come on!! Hurry up damn it!"
    This is also a reason why Cleric/Mages are awesome, the Robe of Vecna is made for them, it seems.
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    My way of looking at Call Woodland Beings is this:
    If you get them to cast Hold Monster at the start of the fight and then forget about them, only casting Mass Cure at the end of the battle, you've still got two level 5 spells from a level 4 spell slot. Anything else is a bonus.

    I also find Holy Power far less useful than either DUHM or Righteous Magic. This may be because I prefer dual or multi Fighter/Clerics, which makes the bonus THAC0 moot. It's a decent spell for single-class clerics who favor melee, but there aren't that many of those about.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited March 2014

    elminster said:


    Call Woodlands Beings (3.5/5) - If they were to make it so that turning off party AI turns off the Nymph's AI then I would give this spell a 5/5. As it stands now though I often find it casting spells that I don't want cast or that are ineffective.

    This has been giving me high blood pressure. I had heard this was an amazing summon (and it does have some very good out of battle spells) but they seem to never do what I want them to do. They seem to want to just cast dominate on every opponent.

    Women these days
    Yea I actually reported it as a bug about 4 months ago ( #6211 ). So hopefully one day it gets looked at.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    Corvino said:

    My way of looking at Call Woodland Beings is this:
    If you get them to cast Hold Monster at the start of the fight and then forget about them, only casting Mass Cure at the end of the battle, you've still got two level 5 spells from a level 4 spell slot. Anything else is a bonus.

    I also find Holy Power far less useful than either DUHM or Righteous Magic. This may be because I prefer dual or multi Fighter/Clerics, which makes the bonus THAC0 moot. It's a decent spell for single-class clerics who favor melee, but there aren't that many of those about.

    I agree with you on Call Woodland Beings.

    As regards Holy Power, I think this spell should be seen as part of a spell combo with DUHM / Righteous Magic, rather than comparing it with either of those two spells. You're right though that Fighter/Clerics gain relatively little from this spell.
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 349
    I think the nymph trying to dominate everybody is pretty accurate to real life :)
    elminster said:

    elminster said:


    Call Woodlands Beings (3.5/5) - If they were to make it so that turning off party AI turns off the Nymph's AI then I would give this spell a 5/5. As it stands now though I often find it casting spells that I don't want cast or that are ineffective.

    This has been giving me high blood pressure. I had heard this was an amazing summon (and it does have some very good out of battle spells) but they seem to never do what I want them to do. They seem to want to just cast dominate on every opponent.

    Women these days
    Yea I actually reported it as a bug about 4 months ago ( #6211 ). So hopefully one day it gets looked at.
    Just goes to illustrate yet another similarity between Earth and Faerun. I don't think this was a bug
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited March 2014
    Taking everyone's input into consideration, a ranking of the level 4 divine spells, could look like this:

    TOP TIER:

    * Protection from Evil 10' Radius 5/5
    Allied creatures receive a +2 bonus to saving throws, whereas evil enemies receive a -2 panalty to attack rolls. As the name implies it's an AoE spell with which a Cleric can buff his entire party (and summons), and besides it has a long duration of 1 turn/level of the caster. The spell also protects its recipients from being attacked by gated fiends.
    Note: @elminster remarks that this spell might no longer offer the +2 saves bonus. In that case a rating of 4/5 would make more sense, as the spell would lose half the protection it offers and be reduced to functioning as a longer lasting Defensive Harmony that only applies against evil creatures (although according to @Corvinus the spell's efects work against all enemies, regardless of their alignment).

    * Holy Power 4.5/5
    Sets the cleric's STR to 18/00, their thac0 to that of a fighter of the same level, and grants an extra hitpoint for each experience level. The 18/00 STR can actually be a lowering of the cleric's base STR, but that can be repaired with a casting of Draw Upon Holy Might or Righteous Magic after casting Holy Power. This spell should therefore be seen as part of a combo with said other spells. These spell combos transform the Cleric into a steamroller more devastating than most fighters (even though they don't gain an increase in APR). Less useful for Fighter/Clerics though, as they already enjoy the benefits of the Fighter class.

    * Call Woodland Beings 3.5/5
    While the Nymph herself is vulnerable, her spell repertoire is useful during a big portion of the game. It includes: Hold Person, Call Lightning, Miscast Magic, Mental Domination, Mass Cure (level 5 spell), Hold Monster (level 5 wizard spell) and Confusion (level 7 spell). Later in SOA you'll get much more powerful summons, but until that time (and maybe even after that), this spell is worthy of memorization, if only for the "free" high level spells.
    Note that the Nymph requires your constant attention, or she will start casting spells you don't want her to cast.

    * Death Ward 4/5
    Protects the target creature form all forms of death magic during 1 turn/level. You won't face death magic all the time, but when you do, the complete protection this spell offers, combined with its progressive duration, is top notch. Besides, since death magic tends to be more fatal than other situational threats that priests can protect themselves against (such as disease or poison), a top tier status is in order for this spell. Examples are Beholders' death rays, and various mages and liches in BG2/TOB who cast spells like Finger of Death or later Wail of the Banshee. The spell won't help your summons against a Death Spell though.

    MID TIER:

    * Free Action 3.5/5
    Immunity to movement hampering spells and attacks is great. The spell can be used both preventively and curatively. Its duration improves with the caster's levels. It would have been a top tier spell if there weren't various items in the game that offer permanent Free Action (rings, a 2h sword in BG1, upgraded Flail of Ages in TOB), and if it didn't negate haste/speed effects. Nevertheless it can be useful to always have one memorized (later maybe even two). It also lends itself well for use in combination with the mage spell Web.

    * Defensive Harmony 3.5/5
    A +2 bonus to AC during (only) 6 rounds for your party is useful once you get this spell in mid BG1. However as the game progresses a +2 won't normally make much of a difference on your warriors whereas mages will have their own protections (such as Stoneskin). Its short casting time is an advantage, as it allows the spell to be reliably cast in battle.

    * Lesser Restoration 3/5
    Restores any drained levels of the recipient. You'll only need to memorize this in BG2/TOB; since in BG1 you won't encounter any level draining creatures. Level drain is difficult to prevent, but I'd memorize it only when your party is going to face vampires or other level draining creatures.

    * Mental Domination 3/5
    With a -2 save vs spell penalty (preferably magnified by Doom or Greater Malison), a relatively short casting time (4) and a reasonable duration of 8 rounds, this is the most potent Charm spell in the game (arcane magic included). Still, it isn't foolproof, enemies may well save against the spell. Druids are better off using their Woodland Beings to cast this spell.

    * Neutralize Poison 3/5
    This spell combines the effects of the 1st level spell Cure Light Wounds (it actually cures 10 hitpoints, one more than CLW), the 2nd level spell Slow Poison, and the 3rd level spell Cure Disease. No need to memorize this if you've got the aforementioned lower level spells already memorized, but with this spell you can save up various lower level spell slots you might have better uses for.

    * Farsight 2.5/5
    I never use it, but I've read people using this spell to have summons debilitate, charm, attack any still neutral (blue circled), future opponents. For 3 rounds + 1 round per level the caster can spy on targeted areas of the map (by clicking on them). The spell makes creaures as well as objects visible for the caster.

    * Negative Plane Protection 2.5/5
    The spell effect, protection from level drain, is great, but its duration of 5 rounds is too short to properly serve your characters in battle. You'll encounter most vampires in small groups, and killing them all within 5 rounds is impossible for the average party during the largest portion of SOA. Besides the game offers two items that grant permament Neg. Plane Protection. Nevertheless useful on unprotected characters in ambush situations, due to its short cating time. Worth memorizing during certain specific parts/chapters of the game.

    BOTTOM TIER:

    * Cause Serious Wounds 2/5
    This spell does 17 damage, which during BG1 or early BG2 may be more than an average hit by the priest, depending on his STR, and there is no saving throw, which is always nice. However the priest has 2 rounds (i.e. 2 attempts normally) to make the attack before the spell wears off, and if the attack misses the spell will expire as well. Perhaps a properly buffed priest with good Thac0 may have use for it.

    * Cloak of Fear 2/5
    This would have been a decent AoE priest spell, panicking enemies near the priest, if it imposed a decent or progressive save vs spell penalty. Unfortunately it doesn't. One particular use could be in situations where the priest is surrounded by lower level critters (with mediocre saves), without being able to move. Kobolds are an example.

    * Cure Serious Wounds 2/5
    Cures 17 hitpoints, which in itself isn't bad, but note that this is only 3 hitpoints more than Cure Medium Wounds. Besides, healing potions abound throughout the game. I'd only recommend memorizing this at later levels, when your cleric has enough level 4 spell slots to also memorize various top tier and upper mid tier spells.

    * Poison 2/5
    Very damaging and disrupting during one turn, possibly even deadly at higher levels, if the spell takes effect on the target. The problem is that a successful save vs poison negates the effect. Rogues and wizards don't have great saves vs poison (unless they're sturdy shorties with high CON), so on them this spell, in combination with Doom / Greater Malison, could work but I wouldn't call it a safe bet.

    * Animal Summoning I 1.5/5
    Two or three animals with 4hd or less hit dice won't last long in battle. They also don't compare favourably to the hardier, magic resistant and more damaging skeletons that the level 3 spell Animate Dead offers. Still it's cannon fodder, especially for the druid who has no access to Animate Dead. Also a useful sacrifice for making an opponent waste a Death Spell.

    * Protection from Lightning 1/5
    Electricity damage is very uncommon throughout the entire trilogy. For those rare occasions I'd quaff a Potion of Absorption. The game offers plenty of those. Besides there's a pair of Boots of Grounding that offer protection as well. Note that in BGEE there's lots of thunder and lightning in the outdoor areas. Also, if you know you're going to deal with druids (who are fond of casting Call Lightning), the spell may be worth memorizing beforehand.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Note: Note: spells that have the same rating are categorizd alphabetically rather than hierarchically.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The level 5 spells are up next for discussion: Animal Summoning II, Cause Critical Wounds, Champion's Strength, Chaotic Commands, Cure Critical Wounds, Flame Strike, Greater Command, Insect Plague, Iron Skins, Magic Resistance, Mass Cure, Pixie Dust, Raise Dead, Repulse Undead, Righteous Magic, Slay Living, and True Seeing.

    Your viwes are most welcome. I'm afraid I won't have time to share mine today, but I'll check later and probably give my ranking tomorrow.

    EDIT 1: Placed Death Ward in the top tier list, with a 4/5 (instead of mid tier with a 3.5/5).
    EDIT 2: Corrected commentary accompanying Death Ward.
    EDIT 3: Promoted Call Woodland Beings from mid tier (3.5/5) to top tier (4/5) after @element added his commendatory words to those of others.
    Post edited by Blackraven on
  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,664
    I honestly can't justify any caster strength boosting spell. In my opinion DuHM is better than them all, and you should take all the OTHER useful spells before trying to buff your strength again. But that's just me. I generally refuse to play a single classed cleric anyway, so most of them aren't as good. (and I flat out refuse to play as a single classed druid)

    Having not gotten to BG2 yet, I really can't add much from here on out, other than guesses and assumptions, so I think I'll mostly bow out and let the smart people talk. =p
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited March 2014
    I use call woodland being for a free level 5 party heal spell. You're practically trading a level 4 spell for a level 5 spell. Sometimes i won't even use her in combat, just throw her out afterwards or when in need of healing.

    Her other spells are decent. but the AI kind of ruins that.

    Death ward should be a 5/5 just because it's got an amazing duration and what it does is waterproof. Throw in protection from petrification and you're immune to all instant death effects in the game (Ability drain not counting)

    Death Ward
    Chaotic Command
    Protection from evil '10

    Should all be 5/5 spells.

    Defensive harmony would be 5/5 if it had a longer duration, i would put it on 4/5 as it is now.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    @SionV, Thanks for your input, I'm putting Death Ward into Top Tier (with a 4/5).
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Death magic that Death Ward will actually protect against is fairlyrare. So while I think a good case could be made to make it a 4/5 (and in fact has been made) unlike say Chaotic Commands you just aren't going to get a lot of use out of it compared to other spells. So I think a 5/5 for it would be too much.

    Also @Blackraven did you mean Wail of the Banshee (instead of Horrid Wilting)?
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited March 2014
    elminster said:

    Death magic that Death Ward will actually protect against is fairlyrare. So while I think a good case could be made to make it a 4/5 (and in fact has been made) unlike say Chaotic Commands you just aren't going to get a lot of use out of it compared to other spells. So I think a 5/5 for it would be too much.

    Also @Blackraven did you mean Wail of the Banshee (instead of Horrid Wilting)?

    Power word kill
    Symbol of death
    Death spell (NPC)
    Disintegrate
    Finger of Death
    Banshee's wail
    Chromatic Orb

    And just about any other death spell a mage can have in his arsenal. Death ward and Chaotic command should be your bread and butter spells as a divine caster, wouldn't rate one over the other. I guess i'm putting a bit more weight to it as i'm playing no-reload games, but it's awesome and couldn't live without it.

    Would also like to mention that you can get immune to many of the effects from Chaotic Command by using items (Shield of Harmony, Aegirs hide, etc) but there is only one weapon in the entire game that grants you the same buff as Death ward, a weapon that can't be used by many classes.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited March 2014
    @elminster, good point. Somehow I erroneously thought that Horrid Wilting had a possible insta-death effect, but it's hasn't. It's just severely damaging (potentially to the point of insta-death anyway). I'll change Horrid Wilting for Wail of the Banshee, which is much less commonly used against your party than ADHW, strenghtening your argument and mine, for not giving Death Ward a 5/5.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited March 2014
    SionIV said:

    elminster said:

    Death magic that Death Ward will actually protect against is fairlyrare. So while I think a good case could be made to make it a 4/5 (and in fact has been made) unlike say Chaotic Commands you just aren't going to get a lot of use out of it compared to other spells. So I think a 5/5 for it would be too much.

    Also @Blackraven did you mean Wail of the Banshee (instead of Horrid Wilting)?

    Power word kill
    Symbol of death
    Death spell (NPC)
    Disintegrate
    Finger of Death

    And just about any other death spell a mage can have in his inventory. Death ward and Chaotic command should be your bread and butter spells as a divine caster, wouldn't rate one over the other. I guess i'm putting a bit more weight to it as i'm playing no-reload games, but it's awesome and couldn't live without it.
    Power Word Kill isn't that common and you need to have party members with less than 60 health left for it to work.

    Symbol of Death is a save vs spell with no penalty. By the time you encounter it it should be pretty difficult to even have it work on you (especially once party buffs are factored into it). Plus it only works if they are at 60 or less health.

    It doesn't help at all with the Death Spell (what NPC has less than 8 HD?)

    Disintegrate: Pretty rare use and like Symbol of Death there isn't a save penalty.

    Finger of Death. Again, pretty rare.


    Confusion, Panic and the other things that Chaotic Commands protects against are far, far more commonly found which is why I'd give it a 5/5.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited March 2014
    elminster said:

    SionIV said:

    elminster said:

    Death magic that Death Ward will actually protect against is fairlyrare. So while I think a good case could be made to make it a 4/5 (and in fact has been made) unlike say Chaotic Commands you just aren't going to get a lot of use out of it compared to other spells. So I think a 5/5 for it would be too much.

    Also @Blackraven did you mean Wail of the Banshee (instead of Horrid Wilting)?

    Power word kill
    Symbol of death
    Death spell (NPC)
    Disintegrate
    Finger of Death

    And just about any other death spell a mage can have in his inventory. Death ward and Chaotic command should be your bread and butter spells as a divine caster, wouldn't rate one over the other. I guess i'm putting a bit more weight to it as i'm playing no-reload games, but it's awesome and couldn't live without it.
    Power Word Kill isn't that common

    Symbol of Death is a save vs spell with no penalty. By the time you encounter it it should be pretty difficult to even have it work on you (especially once party buffs are factored into it). Plus it only works if you they 60 or less health.

    It doesn't help at all with the Death Spell (what NPC has less than 8 HD?)

    Disintegrate: Pretty rare use and like Symbol of Death there isn't a save penalty.

    Finger of Death. Again, pretty rare.


    Confusion, Panic and the other things that Chaotic Commands protects against are far, far more commonly found which is why I'd give it a 5/5.
    Confusion can get taken care of by items and saving throws.

    Panic is easily removed by any paladin or a simple divine spell.

    Charm is easily protected from.

    Those spells can't be protected from by anything other than Death Ward.

    I love Chaotic Command but i would rate Death Ward just as high.

    Finger of Death and Disintegrate aren't that rare to be honest, it's used by most high level spell casters. Play with SCS and you'll be seeing even more of them.

    Some of the demons in Watcher's keep (level 3, the maze) has an instant kill ability on their auto attack, which also death ward protects you from.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    @elminster and @SionIV, I concur with elminster in this case. Mind and movement affecting spells are as diverse as they are common, so that a 5/5 for Chaotic Commands, which protects against all these different spells, is in order.
    It's true that Finger of Death isn't that rare on SCS (Disintegrate IMO is), but somehow I never get killed by these spells. For a no-reloader such as myself I guess I'm very naive in not fearing death magic more. I do memorize it, but I simply don't find myself using it that often.

    Either way, as the third highest ranked level 4 spell, with a 4/5 rating in the current ranking based on people's input, I think the merits of Death Ward are beyond dispute.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689

    @elminster and @SionIV, I concur with elminster in this case. Mind and movement affecting spells are as diverse as they are common, so that a 5/5 for Chaotic Commands, which protects against all these different spells, is in order.
    It's true that Finger of Death isn't that rare on SCS (Disintegrate IMO is), but somehow I never get killed by these spells. For a no-reloader such as myself I guess I'm very naive in not fearing death magic more. I do memorize it, but I simply don't find myself using it that often.

    Either way, as the third highest ranked level 4 spell, with a 4/5 rating in the current ranking based on people's input, I think the merits of Death Ward are beyond dispute.

    I guess i rank it higher than most other people because it's the ONLY way to protect yourself against those spells. You can get every single bonus of Chaotic Command with other items and protections, you'll not find a spell or item that does the same as death ward with the exception of one Katana which you get late.

    Anyway as i said earlier i love both spells, but wouldn't rate Chaotic Command higher than death ward.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited March 2014
    SionIV said:

    elminster said:

    SionIV said:

    elminster said:

    Death magic that Death Ward will actually protect against is fairlyrare. So while I think a good case could be made to make it a 4/5 (and in fact has been made) unlike say Chaotic Commands you just aren't going to get a lot of use out of it compared to other spells. So I think a 5/5 for it would be too much.

    Also @Blackraven did you mean Wail of the Banshee (instead of Horrid Wilting)?

    Power word kill
    Symbol of death
    Death spell (NPC)
    Disintegrate
    Finger of Death

    And just about any other death spell a mage can have in his inventory. Death ward and Chaotic command should be your bread and butter spells as a divine caster, wouldn't rate one over the other. I guess i'm putting a bit more weight to it as i'm playing no-reload games, but it's awesome and couldn't live without it.
    Power Word Kill isn't that common

    Symbol of Death is a save vs spell with no penalty. By the time you encounter it it should be pretty difficult to even have it work on you (especially once party buffs are factored into it). Plus it only works if you they 60 or less health.

    It doesn't help at all with the Death Spell (what NPC has less than 8 HD?)

    Disintegrate: Pretty rare use and like Symbol of Death there isn't a save penalty.

    Finger of Death. Again, pretty rare.


    Confusion, Panic and the other things that Chaotic Commands protects against are far, far more commonly found which is why I'd give it a 5/5.
    Confusion can get taken care of by items and saving throws.

    Panic is easily removed by any paladin or a simple divine spell.

    Charm is easily protected from.

    Those spells can't be protected from by anything other than Death Ward.

    I love Chaotic Command but i would rate Death Ward just as high.

    Finger of Death and Disintegrate aren't that rare to be honest, it's used by most high level spell casters. Play with SCS and you'll be seeing even more of them.

    Some of the demons in Watcher's keep (level 3, the maze) has an instant kill ability on their auto attack, which also death ward protects you from.
    High level spellcasters are pretty rare compared to the vast majority of enemies you come across. Chaotic Commands protects you and/or your summons against any caster/creature who uses/casts a panic effect (includes Horror), Confusion (Confusion and Chaos spells as well as Myconids and Umber Hulks), Charms/Domination (including Vampires and Mind Flayers), any Stun spell (including Mind Flayers Psionic Blasts), Feeblemind, Hold spells, and Sleep (including Earthquake if you want to use it when your party members are in its AoE).

    Death Ward is great in certain fights (like against Liches and Beholders) but since it won't stop a Cloudkill, Death Fog, or Death Spell from killing your summons its usability is pretty much limited to your own party. Even in the case of Liches (general liches anyways) they'll first cast the spells they have that are more easily avoided/saved against (Symbol:Death and Wail of the Banshee) before they'll get around to Finger of Death and Disintegrate. With a -4 save penalty given to you from Symbol:Fear or a Symbol: Stun (which will cast by the Lich at about the same time as the Symbol: Death) is more likely to work against you than Symbol: Death or Wail of the Banshee.
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