If I must. Becoming grammatical
JuliusBorisov
Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
in Off-Topic
Being a non-native English language speaker, I often have difficulties in terms of certain grammar questions when posting here. And very often when I reread my posts I find mistakes and/or not suitable words. It saddens me a lot because I'm quite a perfectionist and want to get rid of mistakes.
I know there're several types of people: some think that Grammar means next to nothing online while others try to be as much correct as possible. Some people just don't care.
I've decided to open this thread so that we all can share our knowledge and experience;) I'll start right away with several recent lessons I've learned while communicating here.
1) The Difference between e.g. and i.e.
The abbreviations e.g. (from the Latin exempli gratia) and i.e. (from the Latin id est) are often confused (and Helm, yeah, I've always confused them). This is because they are both used to introduce some clarification of something previously mentioned.
The abbreviation e.g. is used to provide an example.
Examples:
The buffet provided excellent variety, e.g., vegetarian and non-vegetarian soups, Italian and French breads, and numerous sweets.
(e.g. = for example)
He was the school champion of many activities (e.g., chess, badminton, 110m hurdles, and high jump).
(e.g. = for example)
The abbreviation i.e. is used to restate an idea more clearly or offer more information.
Examples:
It happened in August, i.e., two months ago.
(i.e. = in other words)
Service charge is included in all prices; i.e., you don't have to leave a tip.
(i.e. = in other words)
2) The Weekend
Sometimes you will here AT the weekend and sometimes ON the weekend.
They are both correct. ON the weekend is used in United States.
Where did you go on the weekend? (US)
Where did you go at the weekend? (British)
3) The use of "I" and "Me"
In the Subject position, where "he" and "she" would be used, "I" must be used.
I love broccoli.
S/he loves broccoli.
As the Object of a verb or preposition, however, "I" is replaced by "me," just as "he" is replaced by "him," and "she" is replaced by "her."
Broccoli doesn't like me.
Broccoli does like her.
Coordinated noun constructions like "you and I" change nothing. It is equally incorrect to say "Me worked late" and "Maureen and me worked late." And it is equally incorrect to say "Fred looked at I" and "Fred looked at Maureen and I."
Keep the following mnemonic sentence in mind: "I" am the Subject but the Object is "me." There are no exceptions.
I know there're several types of people: some think that Grammar means next to nothing online while others try to be as much correct as possible. Some people just don't care.
I've decided to open this thread so that we all can share our knowledge and experience;) I'll start right away with several recent lessons I've learned while communicating here.
1) The Difference between e.g. and i.e.
The abbreviations e.g. (from the Latin exempli gratia) and i.e. (from the Latin id est) are often confused (and Helm, yeah, I've always confused them). This is because they are both used to introduce some clarification of something previously mentioned.
The abbreviation e.g. is used to provide an example.
Examples:
The buffet provided excellent variety, e.g., vegetarian and non-vegetarian soups, Italian and French breads, and numerous sweets.
(e.g. = for example)
He was the school champion of many activities (e.g., chess, badminton, 110m hurdles, and high jump).
(e.g. = for example)
The abbreviation i.e. is used to restate an idea more clearly or offer more information.
Examples:
It happened in August, i.e., two months ago.
(i.e. = in other words)
Service charge is included in all prices; i.e., you don't have to leave a tip.
(i.e. = in other words)
2) The Weekend
Sometimes you will here AT the weekend and sometimes ON the weekend.
They are both correct. ON the weekend is used in United States.
Where did you go on the weekend? (US)
Where did you go at the weekend? (British)
3) The use of "I" and "Me"
In the Subject position, where "he" and "she" would be used, "I" must be used.
I love broccoli.
S/he loves broccoli.
As the Object of a verb or preposition, however, "I" is replaced by "me," just as "he" is replaced by "him," and "she" is replaced by "her."
Broccoli doesn't like me.
Broccoli does like her.
Coordinated noun constructions like "you and I" change nothing. It is equally incorrect to say "Me worked late" and "Maureen and me worked late." And it is equally incorrect to say "Fred looked at I" and "Fred looked at Maureen and I."
Keep the following mnemonic sentence in mind: "I" am the Subject but the Object is "me." There are no exceptions.
21
Comments
When I write on the forums I nearly always make a mistake, but I am really bad at catching those mistakes as I write, I post something and think I have written pretty accurately, but when I look on my comment again there are always glaring mistakes
So I guess I have the *ability* to write ok english (wrote my master's thesis in english for example, 90 pages), but I am not very good at writing correct at a first try.
I've always found "a" and "an" hard to differentiate. I always pick one or the other from gut feeling, without basing that decision on a system.
This is pretty impressive though. I'm a native English speaker(u.s.) and I dint know about the i.e. vs. e.g. Thing, or the weekend thing, though I feel like I should have. I watch a lot of British TV and you think I would have run into something as common as the weekend at some point.
Me grammars be no the bestest, but myself can tries.
One thing that people get wrong pretty much all the time is "he as is tall as I" to a native(at least in the u.s) this actually sound wrong. Most people will almost always say "he is as tall as me" but that's wrong because when you say that the last word is left out but implied. What you're actually saying is "he is as tall as I am. "I think @loub has some knowledge in this subject.
i.e. is shorthand for "illud est"--literally, "that is". etc. is shorthand for "et cetera"--literally, "and other things" etal. is shorthand for "et alii"--literally, "and other people" stat. is shorthand for "statim"--literally, "immediately" (so in a hospital if you hear someone asking for something "stat", they need it immediately) N.B. is shorthand for "note bene"--literally, "note well"
et al. is commonly used in references.
Furthermore, grammar itself is not, never was, nor will it ever be, a science - it is nothing but a set of rules created to unify the language so it can, in theory, be consistent. It can be used in the scientific field of linguistics as a parameter, but it differs heavily from that which you are accostumed to, not to mention that nearly every theory has its own conceptions of grammar (and several other things), which is why we linguists normally make it clear which theory we follow when speaking about it.
But to answer your question: all of those situations are technically correct ("he is as tall as I"/"he is as tall as me"/"He is as tall as I am"): they have been used for centuries in literature and discourses and do not violate the innerworkings of the universal grammar. I could spend hours discoursing on the whies of such judgement, but that would most certainly be a waste of your time due to its sheer complexity. If you want to know more, I suggest you google 'Gerativism' and see it for yourself.
Happens to me all the time, and the saddest thing is: I'm an English teacher (although in my defense I didn't train for it, my academic background is law).
A possible cause, but I'm not sure, could be that when I'm posting on here, I'm often as happy as a child that just woke up on their birthday.
Btw I find @bengoshi that your English is more than fine, and @Aristillius the same goes for you. From what I've read I'd say you're Scandinavian (which is almost synomymous to having a good command of the English language). @Loub's English is impressive, taking into account that he's a 19-year-old Brazilian. Nevertheless, good topic @bengoshi!
I believe my own skill in the English language started as an escape mechanism I found to distance myself from reality and better fit in an autistic fantasy based on my only moments of peace, likely videogames - so much that when I was placed into foster care I could barely speak Portuguese, and no German, anymore.
Of course, matters such as these are better left to psychologists rather than forum members.
And yes, I'm indeed 19 years old. As to why should it matter, I cannot grasp.
Very often, a hyphen an em or m dash (—) should be used in place of a semicolon—this sentence provides one such example.
I don't often use semicolons though.
The most egregious errors were those I encountered during my work in the public sector:
1. "Please revert" used in place of "Please get back to me"
2. "Please advice" used in place of "Please advise"
There are more, but I left the public sector a long time ago XD
Take heart. English is a terrible language to learn, and it takes a lifetime to master. Here are some tips that may help.
1. If in doubt, use simple sentences. Complex sentences are prone to errors and if your English proficiency is not quite there yet, you will have difficulty correcting your own sentences.
2. If in doubt, use synonyms or phrases that you are comfortable with. A simple word used with confidence is better than a bombastic phrase used in folly.
3. Refrain from using florid language and vocabulary. If your words hamper understanding in the recipient, then you have failed to communicate, unless it was not your intention...
4. Write - express yourself in different ways. It could be a story, an exposition, or anything else that crosses your mind. Acquire the habit of thinking in the language you are learning.
5. Read... selectively. If you are what you eat, then your mind is what you read. Rubbish in, rubbish out. When you get your language foundation right, the content you acquire now can help you take flight.
There are three primary types of dashes. The m dash/em dash (—), the en dash (–), and the simple hyphen (-). All of them are generally replaced with a minus sign, or a pair of minus signs in the case of breaking up a sentence (instead of using an em dash). This is incorrect, but given the lack of accessibility to the em and en dashes on a standard QWERTY keyboard, it is typically overlooked.
The en dash (–): This little fella typically connects a to-and-from value or a prefix or suffix. With the former, that can be a simple numerical value, a time, date, or words that we associate with values. Words that we associate with values are things like days or months. Monday–Friday, January–March. For example, a sentence such as "Opening hours: 09:00 to 20:00" can instead appear as "Opening hours: 09:00–20:00." In the latter sense of prefix and suffix, it is used to keep the words separate but still joined, an example would be "pre–" as a means of referring to "prior to." "Pre–World War I," "Pre–World War II." The en dash looks the same (depending on font types) as a standard minus sign or hyphen. The minus sign is the one everyone uses when typing due to its accessibility. If the font type allows then typically the en dash is larger than the hyphen but smaller than the em dash.
The m dash/em dash (—): this is the other one most people replace with either a hyphen or a pair of hyphens. Understandable since you need to actually type in — or —. Typically, it will replace the hyphen you used in the sentence above. It should never be used with a space unless the font type is cramped. For example: It will commonly appear as you typed it, or it will appear as such: In speech, it is also used as an abrupt cut off point to a word or sentence; an interruption. "Please, I beg of you, let me li—". One or two may be used in this context. "Please, I beg of you, let me li——".
It can also be used to replace parenthesis. In that sense, the reader or listener is supposed to actually see it or hear it. Parenthesis are typically used to convey some extra context but can otherwise be discarded in a sentence. A phrase or sentence using m/em dash is not supposed to be skipped.
Talking to a friend: "We decided to go out and see a film at the cinema. The driver—that was me, obviously, since I lack any sort of direction—took a wrong turn and so we arrived late."
That same sentence but with the inclusion of parenthesis:
Talking to a friend: "We decided to go out and see a film at the cinema. The driver (me) took a wrong turn and so we arrived late."
In this particular case, the parenthesis can either be considered a whisper or as means to clarify who the driver was at the time. For the purposes of reading it can be discarded. This provides ambiguity as to who the driver was; to cover up a failure by implying that it was someone else but not actually saying so:
Talking to a friend: "We decided to go out and see a film at the cinema. The driver took a wrong turn and so we arrived late."
Other examples:
Monologue: "Where did I put that spanner—it was a size ten—I know I left it here somewhere."
Here is a similar sentence to the above but with the inclusion of parenthesis to ensure that context is known.
Monologue: "Where did I put that spanner—nuts (intentional pun), it is the only size ten I have—I really need to find it."
This should never happen in proper literature since context should be clear enough. However, it is sometimes used to convey speech as a whisper. You can see this with Edwin in BG2.
Neither desktop or laptop QWERTY keyboards have easy access to that sort of hold down functionality. Given how new the modern phones and tablets are, a hyphen has already become ingrained into 'standard' internet usage (not to sound snarky, but you have already demonstrated that). :-)
The best bet, if you have it on desktop or laptop, is to use something like Microsoft Word. Set a character replacer for '---' so that it will become '—', then set another for '--' so that it will become '–'. When typing in Word, just remember which one you want and type the appropriate number of hyphens and they will be replaced.
So few people are willing to do all that just to type out a single sentence or paragraph on the internet, just in the same way that most people do not care about punctuation.
I'm still stuck in the past with regards to browser compatibility, so I will continue to use — instead of directly using the special character.
Also, regarding 'of' versus 'have,' this is more to do with phonetics. This dates back centuries. If you notice certain accents in England, 'have' will become 'av as people drop the 'h'. "I should 'av known." When spoken, this sounds more like 'of' than 'have'. People then replace the word with what sounds like the most appropriate. I have also seen the American pronunciation of certain words influence the spelling in England and Ireland amongst the newer generations. Examples: herbs becoming erbs, nuclear becoming nuculer. The latter really annoying me, although I think it is probably limited to certain States. I was teaching my nephew how to spell some years back. My typical reaction is "break down the syllables." To which he replied "nu, like new? cue, ler." Then he proceeded to spell it nuculer. "Have you been watching George Bush on the news again? Nuculer is not how this word is pronounced, that is a different word entirely. Pronounce it as 'new' and 'clear'."
Just reading the rest of @Squire's post. I don't know of a single English speaking individual that doesn't know how to use an apostrophe when contracting words. In many cases, when typed on the internet or in text messages, it is left out simply for quickness of typing.
There are only two points of contention I know.
I profess to be a language chicken who runs away from potential grammar potholes...
Anyway, a demonstration of early contraction usage. 1874, Far from the Madding Crowd, “Whose shepherd is he?” said the equestrian. “Don't know, ma'am.” “Don't any of the others know?” That demonstrates usage of 'do not.' "Ma'am" pre-dates an early quote from the 1600s. 1668, An Evening's Love, “Madam me no Madam, but learn to retrench your words; and say Mam; as yes Mam, and no Mam, as other Ladies Women do. Madam! 'tis a year in pronouncing.”
If in doubt, avoid them. Otherwise, feel free to use them as desired.
Very insightful post.
Yes, I do use contractions when writing narratives. Otherwise, I try to avoid most language pitfalls because I know in the digital age, I may not always have the luxury of time to proofread what I write, whether it is a post on a forum or a phone message. As far as possible, I stick to simpler grammar to minimize errors
Oh, I notice both of us have bears as our avatar pictures! ^_^