The thing that brings life to the BG1 NPC's in my opinion is that they have a life on their own. None of them 'need' to be around you, they have their own agenda and needs. If you left them somewhere they would continue their life and wouldn't care much about it.
The NPC's weren't made for CHARNAME, they were made for the world. Kivan is a perfect example, he is using you as a way to get to Tazok, if you won't do it in time he'll leave you and do it himself, same with Minsc and Dynaheir. Coran will hunt down his own damn Wyvern and doesn't care if you come along or not.
If we look at the NPC's in BG2 you start to notice how it goes all Planescape Torment over it where they all need to follow you. And if you throw someone in BG2 out of your party they will go and wait for you, if you do the same in BG1 most of them won't be there when you return later.
Imoen/Jaheira/Minsc - Has to follow you, got nothing else to do. Yoshimo - Has a geas on him, can't leave you. Aerie - Emo kid need her knight in shining armor, i don't see her surviving long without you. Anomen - He practically forces you to accept him so he can join your party. Keldorn - He is one of the few NPC's in BG2 that actually does his own thing. He has his family and doesn't even want to stay with you. Viconia - She's got nothing else to do, you save her and she follows you, just like Ignus. Haer'Dalis - One of the few NPC's that has his own life. Valygar - He wouldn't survive very long without you, and he needs you to help him with the curse. Nalia - She needs you, wouldn't make it without you. Edwin - Kind of has his own life but still sticks around for you and wants to join you. Cernd - He has his own life, just needs a bit help with the grove, he will challenge Faldorn himself and win if need be. Mazzy - After you save her she lost her entire group, doesn't have much left except her family. Jan Jansen - He has his own motives but you do save him from prison, that way he joins you. Korgan - Needs your help, would probably have made it on his own but he still sticks with you.
Most of the people you meet in BG2 are either people that NEED to be around you, or that you have saved and that way feels they need to repay you. There are only a few people who actually have their own life, Keldorn is a perfect example of this.
If you look at the NPC's in BG1 they will join you for their own gains, and if that doesn't suit them, they will leave. It's like the world doesn't revolve around you like it does in BG2.
It seems to me that generally speaking many of us would like to see more reality in a fantasy world, which sounds like an oxymoron but would actually enhance suspension of disbelief (or immersion, call it what you will).
To that end would it be possible to exaggerate traits in NPCs that we encounter in RL? For example whose best friend doesn't have an annoying habit? Couldn't Evil characters have a charming side to their personality (casts:puppy dog eyes)?
Maybe a more reactive link between NPC alignment and party reputation, i.e. an NPC-specific movement/reaction adjustment kicks in (a bit like encumbered,slowed) if the party rep starts to become out of sync with the NPC alignment. This could be highlighted in the dialogue box with cutting sarcasm, passive-aggressive sulking etc.
Generally speaking, anything that introduces a random element to the feel of the game to bring back a little bit of the feeling of wonder and bewilderment we must all have felt the first time we played BG.
The thing that brings life to the BG1 NPC's in my opinion is that they have a life on their own. None of them 'need' to be around you, they have their own agenda and needs. If you left them somewhere they would continue their life and wouldn't care much about it.
The NPC's weren't made for CHARNAME, they were made for the world. Kivan is a perfect example, he is using you as a way to get to Tazok, if you won't do it in time he'll leave you and do it himself, same with Minsc and Dynaheir. Coran will hunt down his own damn Wyvern and doesn't care if you come along or not.
If we look at the NPC's in BG2 you start to notice how it goes all Planescape Torment over it where they all need to follow you. And if you throw someone in BG2 out of your party they will go and wait for you, if you do the same in BG1 most of them won't be there when you return later.
Imoen/Jaheira/Minsc - Has to follow you, got nothing else to do. Yoshimo - Has a geas on him, can't leave you. Aerie - Emo kid need her knight in shining armor, i don't see her surviving long without you. Anomen - He practically forces you to accept him so he can join your party. Keldorn - He is one of the few NPC's in BG2 that actually does his own thing. He has his family and doesn't even want to stay with you. Viconia - She's got nothing else to do, you save her and she follows you, just like Ignus. Haer'Dalis - One of the few NPC's that has his own life. Valygar - He wouldn't survive very long without you, and he needs you to help him with the curse. Nalia - She needs you, wouldn't make it without you. Edwin - Kind of has his own life but still sticks around for you and wants to join you. Cernd - He has his own life, just needs a bit help with the grove, he will challenge Faldorn himself and win if need be. Mazzy - After you save her she lost her entire group, doesn't have much left except her family. Jan Jansen - He has his own motives but you do save him from prison, that way he joins you. Korgan - Needs your help, would probably have made it on his own but he still sticks with you.
Most of the people you meet in BG2 are either people that NEED to be around you, or that you have saved and that way feels they need to repay you. There are only a few people who actually have their own life, Keldorn is a perfect example of this.
If you look at the NPC's in BG1 they will join you for their own gains, and if that doesn't suit them, they will leave. It's like the world doesn't revolve around you like it does in BG2.
Really interesting overview! This focus on NPCs as story elements rather than power-game, comradeship or entertainment elements suggests to me the following: An NPC who secretly represents, knowingly or unknowingly,some other Demi-God, perhaps Malar the BeastLord that was left out of the final contest between Baal, Bane and Myrkul for Jergal's power. An observer of some sort who is possibly reporting to an unknown correspondent. A character that has much to offer but might prove treacherous at some point or indeed might turn out to have secret information that is crucial that he/she may or may not divulge. ~A mystery figure!!
I also agree with the general point that Imoen, granted that her Dual-Class stats put her in a class of her own among all BG1 Thief types, is significantly underdeveloped from a storyteller's POV. She is not just another NPC. She is Baalspawn and as such should have a much more developed set of dialogue scripts.
After all, we know from the start of the game that she has no small degree of personal initiative and self-starting ability. Enough to prompt her to leave Candlekeep all by herself in what was really a rather foolhardy attempt to track down Gorion and Charname. For reasons never quite articulated.
I have gathered from another forum post that Imoen was a late-stage addition to BG, almost an after-thought. Perhaps it would have been better if she were not Baalspawn but Winthrop's natural daughter. That in itself might have led to much more interesting RP choices, the Innkeeper's daughter holding her own in the Major Leagues....
[Note: Imoen as a Thief/Mage Dual-Class is perhaps not truly a "class of her own" because Safana can also fill that role with Intelligence Tome]
Sorry that it is so long! Clearly I like this topic and secretly wish I could make an NPC of my own haha
"1. I think in terms of immersion it is very important for the character to be thematically consistent with existing Bioware NPCs. I mean this in terms of dialogue matching the original content, having the character not have interests or goals that seem out of place in Amn/Forgotten Realms and giving him goals that are realistic for a person in his position and an attitude and demeanor that is consistent with a medieval fantasy environment. I don’t really like the whole “my character is so super-special and unique and awesome” thing that usually happens with modd NPCs. Being unique is important to me, but there is a difference between standing out and having a huge neon sign saying “look at what the writer is trying to do/say! Isn’t it just awesome!”. I’m not saying it should be unambitious, just not too “try-hard” if you know what I mean. For example (no disrespect to the creators of it) the Saerilith mod kind of took over my story when I installed it. I thought that the NPC stood out too much and that the author tried a bit too hard to make her seem “super-awesome-cool” at the expense of immersion.
2. Very important to me is that the character should have a good reason to travel with CHARNAME and his party. I think that it is often kind of weird how even original Bioware NPCs seem to have little reason to be willing to follow charname anywhere, and I mostly think this has to do with short friendship paths. This is one area in which I think the NPC sticking out a bit would be a good thing. Oftentimes the reasons why many NPCs are aligned with charname (not including the “canon” party or even all other characters, but a lot) have to do solely with alignment (ie Evil characters follow you because you are evil, Good because you are good. The Law-Chaos axis seems to be secondary). Nalia for example seems to have different goals that a Lawful Neutral priest of Helm would be expected to have, yet the game is limited in exhibiting this possible conflict of interests (not saying she should leave the party, but having some sort of dialogue about what a character wants out of adventuring with you is really nice). One way to do this would be an extensive friendship path that shows why the theoretical NPC would stick with your character on his journey to fight Irenicus or the Iron Throne or become a god, etc. I think BG1 actually did a better job with this than BG2, since Kivan, Xan, Branwen, etc were linked to the Iron Throne/Bandits/other bad guys and had reasons to ally with you.
So basically three reasons I can think of: The NPC hates Irenicus/the Iron Throne (or fights evil unconditionally), they want to benefit personally from the alliance (which would allow for some actual trade-off to be implemented ie share of the loot) or they form a bond with charname and his companions that is tighter than the dialogue from the vanilla game could show (friendship paths for the win!)
3. Friendship paths or mentor paths. Romance would be nice too, but not necessary. I always thought it was weird that in order to get a good insight into the NPCs you need to be bonking them. This is limiting for non-romanceable character. I mean in real life, I like many others have one love but many close friends. I think the in-game relationships should be similar. There are many things you would be comfortable sharing with or discussing with close friend (an traveling through dangerous locales fighting fierce monsters lends itself to forming deep bonds). I’d like to have a way for a mod NPC to exhibit this kind of camaraderie in ways that don’t make romantic relations necessary. I also really like the idea of mentor paths. Your character is very young in this game and is given huge responsibilities. Older and more experienced NPCs should have some valuable advice for a newbie adventurer that would help keep them alive. One of my favorite inter-NPC interactions are between Keldorn and Minsc. Keldorn takes Minsc under his wing and kind of teaches him some things, guiding him in how to direct his anger in constructive ways. He has similar interactions with Aerie and especially Anomen. This is awesome. Keldorn and in some ways Jaheira have some similar convos with the Bhaalspawn, but more along these lines would be welcome. If the character were to be experienced I would like for them to teach CHARNAME a thing or two about how they see things or how they go about surviving while fighting scary monsters in remote areas. Or just about life in general.
4. I’d like the NPC to fit into existing quests/conflicts. Most of the Bioware NPCs are linked to some major quest in the game. Keldorn is with the Cult, Nalia and the Keep, Mazzy and Amaunator Temple, Cernd and Trademeet, Edwin and Mae’var, Haer’Dalis with Planar Prions and Valygar with the sphere. It would be cool for a mod NPC to fit in with an existing quest that maybe does not have anyone currently linked to it. Two that come to mind off the top of my head are the slaver storyline in the Copper Coronet and the Windspear Hills. Hendak was kind of cool, and a character (maybe a barbarian or skald) that was a slave you freed would be a worthy addition to the party. Having been a slave opens up a lot of interesting possibilities. They already have a reason to be indebted to charname and would also follow him to oppose Irenicus who, like Lehtinan, has a history with holding people against their will. This satisfies my #2 desire perfectly. Also it allows for some areas (like the guarded compound in the Temple district) to have more significance. The guarded compound seems to be almost easter-eggish due to its significance not being easily apparent. Having an NPC that wants to destroy the slaver ring gives you more of a reason to be there. Also would add some flavor to the random ecounters with slavers while traveling in-between areas. Windspear Hills seems like a perfect opportunity to add either a druid (dryad community nearby) or a Paladin (Garren Windspear’s daughter/son perhaps?)
5. I’d like the NPC to have a class or race that adds something new to the game. This is not the most important for me but I like to have a character that fills a role that no current NPC does. For example, there is no barbarian in either game. BG2 lacks a traditional bard and a sorcerer. Only one of each shorty in the second game, and only two of each in the first. Only one half-orc and he is evil as hell. The elves in BG2 are all kind of exotic (Avariel and Drow). I’d like to see a good/neutral dwarf or half-orc or even an evil Ranger (don’t care if it is illegal)
6. Speaking of illegal things, I don’t mind illegal race and class combos… in fact I think they are cool (Mazzy the pseudo-paladin for example). I’d like to see a dwarven skald, an elven druid or a gnome sorcerer if they are done well and have good explanations. We already have a half-orc blackguard and an elven cleric/mage.
7. Unique NPC items or abilities add a lot of flavor to the game. Whether it is Keldorn’s family weapons or Tiax’s summon shadows ability, these things all make the characters more interesting. In BG2 everyone but Korgan and Imoen (off the top of my head) have an item, spell or ability that is unique to them and has to do with their background. I’d like to see a bard with their own cool instrument or a barbarian with his/her clan’s totem. These things can make for interesting dialogue or even questlines.
8. I actually like the idea of inter-NPC romances better than additional options for CHARNAME. I think it is odd how only the Bhaalspawn seems to get any romantic interest (Jaheira and Khalid kinda in the first game and some kinda/sorta/not really flirting between Haer’Dalis and Aerie the only exceptions). One thing I really liked about the Kelsey mod is that he could romance Imoen in ToB. This adds a lot of flavor and believability to the world that I think would benefit the game immensely. I wouldn’t want this to be the center of attention or distract from CHARNAME/the main story too much, but some dialogue along these lines would be kinda cool for me."
As you can probably tell I've thought about this a lot. I've had a lot of conversations with people here like Quartz and KidCarnival (much missed) about what I would like to see.
It is kind of interesting that I have a different view on whether or not the NPCs "need" to be with your character than @SionIV .... but not really. I'd like them to have a reason to travel with you like I mentioned but I actually would also like the chance to part with them on friendly terms after you have finished your joint objective. This is one of the things I like about Keldorn.
I think it is also interesting how so many people want different things, haha. Seems like a daunting task to make a good mod NPC with mass appeal.
I think it is also interesting how so many people want different things, haha. Seems like a daunting task to make a good mod NPC with mass appeal.
Especially since NPC's in BG1 are less fleshed out than in BG2. Unless someone was planning to do a whole pack of new NPC's that interact with eachother, or planning on having their mod work off of the NPC project, a mod NPC that has any kind of substantial dialogue in BGEE is going to stand out compared to the bioware ones.
I think it is also interesting how so many people want different things, haha. Seems like a daunting task to make a good mod NPC with mass appeal.
Especially since NPC's in BG1 are less fleshed out than in BG2. Unless someone was planning to do a whole pack of new NPC's that interact with eachother, or planning on having their mod work off of the NPC project, a mod NPC that has any kind of substantial dialogue in BGEE is going to stand out compared to the bioware ones.
Which is why any NPC mod that I would enjoy, could not help but stand out in BGI, in this respect. Though I suspect that once the BG NPC Project mod is updated for BG:EE most people will have that installed as well. Making this less of a problem.
I don't know how much the BG2 NPC's really need the PC. I think only Imoen specifically needs you. Minsc is a bit without his witch, and he and Jaheira need saving at the beginning. But with that done, I'm sure they can both manage without you. Aerie obviously needs help to leave the circus and find her feet in the world, so to speak, but given time I think she'll manage it without you (there is the whole Kalah business of course, but another party might have come along, or even some of the commoners might have worked up the courage to band together and free her). Viconia... yeah, probably not many other people would have saved her... anyway, I suppose none of that really matters.
I think I already said that I basically just like mods to fit the themes of the game, and be close to same level of content that exists for current NPC's. Not bothered about illegal class etcetera if it makes sense. So I'll just share some basic principles of writing a character:
Background - obviously very important to work out the characters history. What experience, skills, level of education they have, relationships in their past that might affect how they relate to people now, what all the other influences on their behavior, morality, and all that good stuff.
Consistancy - of course it's important being somewhat consistant in their behavior, as well as with their background. If your character was a blacksmith for ten years, they're not going to suddenly forget everything they knew about blacksmithing (unless there's some story reason for that. Or to use an example of one my fav characters, Aerie's basically been a laboror for some time, since she was released from her cage, doing all kinds of chores in a travelling circus - places not generally regarded for their high degrees of pristine cleanliness. So she's not really likely to be bothered much if her clothes get ripped or torn or have mud on them.
Context - Okay, so, it turns out, real people aren't always consistant. Most people do go up and down a little over the course of even just a day, but any really drastic change in behavior should be accounted for by the circumstances in the story. Aerie again is a good example; she's normally nice, but when she's depressed and unhappy, or pushed a lot, she can get snappy and be very nasty to people, which is obviously normal. But we're not just talking about behavior here. There's historical context as well, or setting in this case. It's pretty self-explanatory - people who grew up on FR won't know much about modern technology or references, won't have been exposed to all the same societal norms and stereotypes. Or, police, actually, are quite a modern invention. I doubt how law is enforced in Amn, but it's probably not the same (before there were police, I think there were just basically Sheriffs who might hire some men, or local lords would use their own guards or hired mercenaries to keep the peace). So, anyway, there's all this stuff to think about.
What Coutelier said about context reminded me of something I really like in a NPC mod. I like them to have attitudes that would be natural for a person coming from the setting the game is made in. It always feels very jarring to me to hear an NPC say something that really belongs in a more modern setting.
The longer I've been into NPC modding, the more I value seamlessness. It's easy to think that you need to write 10 potential PC responses to everything an NPC says, or put tons of personality into everything the PC says, but I think that's a situation where less is actually more. The more tailored your responses, the less likely that they're going to apply to any given player, and nobody wants to have to read 10 responses before picking something. Or at least, most people don't.
Lots of times, people want to toss out everything that Bioware did with NPCs and add in all sorts of additional things, but I really do think that about 75% of the time, Bioware did have the right idea. At least where it comes to actual writing. (I'm very often not happy with characterization, though.) I do think it helps to look at what Bioware does, look at what modders do, and decide for yourself what does and doesn't work.
For me, the major design defect of the Bioware NPCs is the lack of friendship tracks. You shouldn't need to want to sleep with someone to find out more about them. I don't think a NPC's friendship needs to be as developed as a romance track, but it should be there. And writing one can be helpful if you're going to write a romance anyway, since then you can just take the friendship track and figure out how it would change if the NPC were interested in the PC. Less danger of running into melodramatic love at first sight nonsense if your romance is grounded in something more platonic first. (Obviously it depends on the NPC.) I really don't like the way romances seem to be almost mandatory for NPC mods these days, though. It cuts out a lot of other possibilities, turns every potential NPC into a sex object, reinforces the idea that the romantic relationship is the only one that matters, and generally just irritates me. Which isn't to say that I don't like romances. Just not every single NPC having one, dammit.
I like to feel like an NPC belongs in Faerun. This doesn't mean that you need to be a lore expert to write one, though. You do need to keep in mind that it's a pre-modern polytheistic society, though, with armies of monsters often banging on the front door. Your NPC also shouldn't feel like a college student who took the wrong turn somewhere. That said, if you're going to go with lore, make sure you do it in a way that's accessible to people who are less familiar with it. There's a tricky balance between info dumping and leaving people out of the loop.
I do think quests are good. You can do more character development with a quest than with all the banter in the world, but I don't really think you should toss in a quest just to have it, and this is another place where less is probably more. I sometimes like to build an NPC around some major problem they're having, and tossing in one or two quests can generally help with that.
My major suggestion, though, would be edit, edit, edit. Especially if you're just starting. It takes a while to figure out what works and what doesn't, and if you're anything like me, you'll draft things about four or five times and toss out 90% of what you started with. And that's good. The major advantage modders have over professional developers is time--you're not on a schedule, you can afford to take the novelist approach to it.
The longer I've been into NPC modding, the more I value seamlessness. It's easy to think that you need to write 10 potential PC responses to everything an NPC says, or put tons of personality into everything the PC says, but I think that's a situation where less is actually more. The more tailored your responses, the less likely that they're going to apply to any given player, and nobody wants to have to read 10 responses before picking something. Or at least, most people don't.
This is great and really one of the most important things in writing an NPC. Less is certainly more when it comes to CHARNAME responses. To be honest there are points in the EEs where I feel like the writers missed the mark in this area of the game. I don't like it when the player character gets shoehorned into a certain personality type in a game that is great for its customization.
Even in the original content there are one or two points where I don't like this. For example in Chateau Irenicus Imoen references a point in which you were "skipping out of lessons in Candlekeep". Pshhhh... my 18 intelligence 18 wisdom booksih nerd was certainly NOT skipping out of Firebead Elvenhair's history lessons, thank you very much.
I've certainly found when I'm writing mods (I'm technically on my second, but the first one was very small really, although probably could do with being trimmed and polished a bit), I've found more and more that I want PC responses to be as neutral as possible, in terms of the type of personality that comes across in them. Basically, I couldn't possibly write a response that would be appropriate for every single PC a player comes up with, but keeping the responses as few and as simple as possible hopefully most can imagine that although it might not have been exactly what their character would have said, it would have been something along those lines or with that sentiment.
Personally, I've always preferred friendship to romance. I enjoy a good story that has characters who can be extremely close, but there's no sexual element attached. Besides, even with your 25 Charisma, the idea that every NPC is just going to throw themselves at you... well, it's not going to happen. It's why I never really like the idea of tacking on alignment changes to NPC's because of your influence - I like to feel that NPC's do have some mind of their own.
Two that come to mind off the top of my head are the slaver storyline in the Copper Coronet and the Windspear Hills. Hendak was kind of cool, and a character (maybe a barbarian or skald) that was a slave you freed would be a worthy addition to the party. Having been a slave opens up a lot of interesting possibilities. They already have a reason to be indebted to charname and would also follow him to oppose Irenicus who, like Lehtinan, has a history with holding people against their will. This satisfies my #2 desire perfectly. Also it allows for some areas (like the guarded compound in the Temple district) to have more significance. The guarded compound seems to be almost easter-eggish due to its significance not being easily apparent. Having an NPC that wants to destroy the slaver ring gives you more of a reason to be there. Also would add some flavor to the random ecounters with slavers while traveling in-between areas.
When I started doing a mod for Aerie I was thinking of tying her into some of the other slaver quests like the Coronet and Compound. As a former slave herself it makes sense that she'd want to get involved and crush those swine (I can be picture Aerie going all chaotic and Batman-esque - cleaning up the streets and slaver scum with extreme violence and prejudice). But I thought the compound had surely already been addressed by other mods, so right now although there's a bit in Copper Coronet, I've left the compound alone.
But anyway, the point is, when I started I had a huge number of ideas, some of them really just completely over ambitious and would have made a whole game by themselves if I did them. Although to be honest, I would probably never finish if I tried to implement everything anyway, given the meagre amount of time and resources I have. It's never a good idea to aim too high; find out what works and what you can do. But don't overdo it, since the game obviously isn't just about one character. Much as I would like it to be.
What Coutelier said about context reminded me of something I really like in a NPC mod. I like them to have attitudes that would be natural for a person coming from the setting the game is made in. It always feels very jarring to me to hear an NPC say something that really belongs in a more modern setting.
I think some pop-culture references can be gotten away with, if they're just a minor NPC encounter and obviously supposed to be humorous (just don't try turning the game into Family Guy... it's a very different sort of show).
On the subject of humor/comedy though, like everything else that should stay in-character as well. Ideally it should just derive naturally from the characters and how they are and not feel too forced or trying too hard. You face some pretty grim things in the game, but if you look at doctors and soldiers who face grim things all the time in real life, you find they very often joke and make light of things because that's what gets them through the day. But anyway, Jan loves telling his stories, for example, Imoen is a bit childish and silly. Even Aerie can be funny, making dry observations, although most humor in her case would probably derive from her shyness and awkwardness in social settings, or just the fact that she's basically an alien and doesn't always get what's going on (not her suddenly acting like some weird emo-valley girl or anything really OOC like that).
And that's obviously one thing I will look for in mods. Not just the mod NPC, but other NPC's being in character as well. I don't want Minsc suddenly starting to go around kicking the butts of good for no apparent reason.
So here is the big question for me. Knowing that you can’t please everyone. That there are many different players, with many different preferences. How do you decide what to include and what to leave out? Do you write an NPC that pleases you and the type of player that you are, or one that might appeal to more people. I’m curious how others would approach this problem.
So here is the big question for me. Knowing that you can’t please everyone. That there are many different players, with many different preferences. How do you decide what to include and what to leave out? Do you write an NPC that pleases you and the type of player that you are, or one that might appeal to more people. I’m curious how others would approach this problem.
It's always nice to get some new ideas from posters here, but you should follow your original idea and then implement certain things you like, instead of trying to fit everything into your mod.
But in my opinion there is only one thing you should make sure of, then you're fine.
Don't turn your NPC into a Mary Sue.
Make sure that she has her flaws, that she isn't perfect, and that she isn't the center of attention in the game. It's alright for her to have a quest or two of her own, but make them small and don't have her steal the spotlight.
Though I must say, there were many people who liked that concept as well.
We already had a character like that in the Valen mod. The mod wasn't that good to begin with, but it still managed to do it better than a certain other vampire.
And Baldur's Gate 2 shouldn't have had an NPC that was a vampire. The vampire race is such a big part of the story, so unless that NPC had some amazing dialogue options with Bodhi and reason for joining the party to begin with, it will fail, like it did.
Another thing to keep in mind is weaponry. What weapons do NPCs currently not have proficiencies in? Nobody in BGII uses a Halberd. Precious few in BG1 use an Axe. Spears are pretty neglected in both games. A pole-arm oriented fighter or Paladin could be pretty neat. There's not really any sword-and-board rogues (thieves/bards) to be had in either game, though BGII's lack of magical bucklers (besides a +1 buckler) is probably to blame for that one. Etc.
I'm making a buckler-oriented bard plz dun steal ((( jk do whatever
Well we do have a bear now. I think that is a neat idea. Even though I personally prefer NPCs that have conversations, and would have liked for him to be able to talk. I think Beamdog did a good job of coming up with new NPCs that were unique for the game. NPC mods can’t be a consideration for them. A bear, vampire, monk, all something new. Whether or not one personally likes them comes down to personal preference again. Of course, being paying customers, we have the right to let them know if we liked them or not. But that is a whole different topic.
Comments
The NPC's weren't made for CHARNAME, they were made for the world. Kivan is a perfect example, he is using you as a way to get to Tazok, if you won't do it in time he'll leave you and do it himself, same with Minsc and Dynaheir. Coran will hunt down his own damn Wyvern and doesn't care if you come along or not.
If we look at the NPC's in BG2 you start to notice how it goes all Planescape Torment over it where they all need to follow you. And if you throw someone in BG2 out of your party they will go and wait for you, if you do the same in BG1 most of them won't be there when you return later.
Imoen/Jaheira/Minsc - Has to follow you, got nothing else to do.
Yoshimo - Has a geas on him, can't leave you.
Aerie - Emo kid need her knight in shining armor, i don't see her surviving long without you.
Anomen - He practically forces you to accept him so he can join your party.
Keldorn - He is one of the few NPC's in BG2 that actually does his own thing. He has his family and doesn't even want to stay with you.
Viconia - She's got nothing else to do, you save her and she follows you, just like Ignus.
Haer'Dalis - One of the few NPC's that has his own life.
Valygar - He wouldn't survive very long without you, and he needs you to help him with the curse.
Nalia - She needs you, wouldn't make it without you.
Edwin - Kind of has his own life but still sticks around for you and wants to join you.
Cernd - He has his own life, just needs a bit help with the grove, he will challenge Faldorn himself and win if need be.
Mazzy - After you save her she lost her entire group, doesn't have much left except her family.
Jan Jansen - He has his own motives but you do save him from prison, that way he joins you.
Korgan - Needs your help, would probably have made it on his own but he still sticks with you.
Most of the people you meet in BG2 are either people that NEED to be around you, or that you have saved and that way feels they need to repay you. There are only a few people who actually have their own life, Keldorn is a perfect example of this.
If you look at the NPC's in BG1 they will join you for their own gains, and if that doesn't suit them, they will leave. It's like the world doesn't revolve around you like it does in BG2.
To that end would it be possible to exaggerate traits in NPCs that we encounter in RL?
For example whose best friend doesn't have an annoying habit? Couldn't Evil characters have a charming side to their personality (casts:puppy dog eyes)?
Maybe a more reactive link between NPC alignment and party reputation, i.e. an NPC-specific movement/reaction adjustment kicks in (a bit like encumbered,slowed) if the party rep starts to become out of sync with the NPC alignment. This could be highlighted in the dialogue box with cutting sarcasm, passive-aggressive sulking etc.
Generally speaking, anything that introduces a random element to the feel of the game to bring back a little bit of the feeling of wonder and bewilderment we must all have felt the first time we played BG.
I also agree with the general point that Imoen, granted that her Dual-Class stats put her in a class of her own among all BG1 Thief types, is significantly underdeveloped from a storyteller's POV. She is not just another NPC. She is Baalspawn and as such should have a much more developed set of dialogue scripts.
After all, we know from the start of the game that she has no small degree of personal initiative and self-starting ability. Enough to prompt her to leave Candlekeep all by herself in what was really a rather foolhardy attempt to track down Gorion and Charname. For reasons never quite articulated.
I have gathered from another forum post that Imoen was a late-stage addition to BG, almost an after-thought. Perhaps it would have been better if she were not Baalspawn but Winthrop's natural daughter. That in itself might have led to much more interesting RP choices, the Innkeeper's daughter holding her own in the Major Leagues....
[Note: Imoen as a Thief/Mage Dual-Class is perhaps not truly a "class of her own" because Safana can also fill that role with Intelligence Tome]
Sorry that it is so long! Clearly I like this topic and secretly wish I could make an NPC of my own haha
"1. I think in terms of immersion it is very important for the character to be thematically consistent with existing Bioware NPCs. I mean this in terms of dialogue matching the original content, having the character not have interests or goals that seem out of place in Amn/Forgotten Realms and giving him goals that are realistic for a person in his position and an attitude and demeanor that is consistent with a medieval fantasy environment. I don’t really like the whole “my character is so super-special and unique and awesome” thing that usually happens with modd NPCs. Being unique is important to me, but there is a difference between standing out and having a huge neon sign saying “look at what the writer is trying to do/say! Isn’t it just awesome!”. I’m not saying it should be unambitious, just not too “try-hard” if you know what I mean.
For example (no disrespect to the creators of it) the Saerilith mod kind of took over my story when I installed it. I thought that the NPC stood out too much and that the author tried a bit too hard to make her seem “super-awesome-cool” at the expense of immersion.
2. Very important to me is that the character should have a good reason to travel with CHARNAME and his party. I think that it is often kind of weird how even original Bioware NPCs seem to have little reason to be willing to follow charname anywhere, and I mostly think this has to do with short friendship paths. This is one area in which I think the NPC sticking out a bit would be a good thing. Oftentimes the reasons why many NPCs are aligned with charname (not including the “canon” party or even all other characters, but a lot) have to do solely with alignment (ie Evil characters follow you because you are evil, Good because you are good. The Law-Chaos axis seems to be secondary). Nalia for example seems to have different goals that a Lawful Neutral priest of Helm would be expected to have, yet the game is limited in exhibiting this possible conflict of interests (not saying she should leave the party, but having some sort of dialogue about what a character wants out of adventuring with you is really nice). One way to do this would be an extensive friendship path that shows why the theoretical NPC would stick with your character on his journey to fight Irenicus or the Iron Throne or become a god, etc. I think BG1 actually did a better job with this than BG2, since Kivan, Xan, Branwen, etc were linked to the Iron Throne/Bandits/other bad guys and had reasons to ally with you.
So basically three reasons I can think of: The NPC hates Irenicus/the Iron Throne (or fights evil unconditionally), they want to benefit personally from the alliance (which would allow for some actual trade-off to be implemented ie share of the loot) or they form a bond with charname and his companions that is tighter than the dialogue from the vanilla game could show (friendship paths for the win!)
3. Friendship paths or mentor paths. Romance would be nice too, but not necessary. I always thought it was weird that in order to get a good insight into the NPCs you need to be bonking them. This is limiting for non-romanceable character. I mean in real life, I like many others have one love but many close friends. I think the in-game relationships should be similar. There are many things you would be comfortable sharing with or discussing with close friend (an traveling through dangerous locales fighting fierce monsters lends itself to forming deep bonds). I’d like to have a way for a mod NPC to exhibit this kind of camaraderie in ways that don’t make romantic relations necessary.
I also really like the idea of mentor paths. Your character is very young in this game and is given huge responsibilities. Older and more experienced NPCs should have some valuable advice for a newbie adventurer that would help keep them alive. One of my favorite inter-NPC interactions are between Keldorn and Minsc. Keldorn takes Minsc under his wing and kind of teaches him some things, guiding him in how to direct his anger in constructive ways. He has similar interactions with Aerie and especially Anomen. This is awesome. Keldorn and in some ways Jaheira have some similar convos with the Bhaalspawn, but more along these lines would be welcome. If the character were to be experienced I would like for them to teach CHARNAME a thing or two about how they see things or how they go about surviving while fighting scary monsters in remote areas. Or just about life in general.
4. I’d like the NPC to fit into existing quests/conflicts. Most of the Bioware NPCs are linked to some major quest in the game. Keldorn is with the Cult, Nalia and the Keep, Mazzy and Amaunator Temple, Cernd and Trademeet, Edwin and Mae’var, Haer’Dalis with Planar Prions and Valygar with the sphere. It would be cool for a mod NPC to fit in with an existing quest that maybe does not have anyone currently linked to it.
Two that come to mind off the top of my head are the slaver storyline in the Copper Coronet and the Windspear Hills. Hendak was kind of cool, and a character (maybe a barbarian or skald) that was a slave you freed would be a worthy addition to the party. Having been a slave opens up a lot of interesting possibilities. They already have a reason to be indebted to charname and would also follow him to oppose Irenicus who, like Lehtinan, has a history with holding people against their will. This satisfies my #2 desire perfectly. Also it allows for some areas (like the guarded compound in the Temple district) to have more significance. The guarded compound seems to be almost easter-eggish due to its significance not being easily apparent. Having an NPC that wants to destroy the slaver ring gives you more of a reason to be there. Also would add some flavor to the random ecounters with slavers while traveling in-between areas.
Windspear Hills seems like a perfect opportunity to add either a druid (dryad community nearby) or a Paladin (Garren Windspear’s daughter/son perhaps?)
5. I’d like the NPC to have a class or race that adds something new to the game. This is not the most important for me but I like to have a character that fills a role that no current NPC does. For example, there is no barbarian in either game. BG2 lacks a traditional bard and a sorcerer. Only one of each shorty in the second game, and only two of each in the first. Only one half-orc and he is evil as hell. The elves in BG2 are all kind of exotic (Avariel and Drow). I’d like to see a good/neutral dwarf or half-orc or even an evil Ranger (don’t care if it is illegal)
6. Speaking of illegal things, I don’t mind illegal race and class combos… in fact I think they are cool (Mazzy the pseudo-paladin for example). I’d like to see a dwarven skald, an elven druid or a gnome sorcerer if they are done well and have good explanations. We already have a half-orc blackguard and an elven cleric/mage.
7. Unique NPC items or abilities add a lot of flavor to the game. Whether it is Keldorn’s family weapons or Tiax’s summon shadows ability, these things all make the characters more interesting. In BG2 everyone but Korgan and Imoen (off the top of my head) have an item, spell or ability that is unique to them and has to do with their background. I’d like to see a bard with their own cool instrument or a barbarian with his/her clan’s totem. These things can make for interesting dialogue or even questlines.
8. I actually like the idea of inter-NPC romances better than additional options for CHARNAME. I think it is odd how only the Bhaalspawn seems to get any romantic interest (Jaheira and Khalid kinda in the first game and some kinda/sorta/not really flirting between Haer’Dalis and Aerie the only exceptions). One thing I really liked about the Kelsey mod is that he could romance Imoen in ToB. This adds a lot of flavor and believability to the world that I think would benefit the game immensely. I wouldn’t want this to be the center of attention or distract from CHARNAME/the main story too much, but some dialogue along these lines would be kinda cool for me."
As you can probably tell I've thought about this a lot. I've had a lot of conversations with people here like Quartz and KidCarnival (much missed) about what I would like to see.
It is kind of interesting that I have a different view on whether or not the NPCs "need" to be with your character than @SionIV .... but not really. I'd like them to have a reason to travel with you like I mentioned but I actually would also like the chance to part with them on friendly terms after you have finished your joint objective. This is one of the things I like about Keldorn.
I think it is also interesting how so many people want different things, haha. Seems like a daunting task to make a good mod NPC with mass appeal.
I think I already said that I basically just like mods to fit the themes of the game, and be close to same level of content that exists for current NPC's. Not bothered about illegal class etcetera if it makes sense. So I'll just share some basic principles of writing a character:
Background - obviously very important to work out the characters history. What experience, skills, level of education they have, relationships in their past that might affect how they relate to people now, what all the other influences on their behavior, morality, and all that good stuff.
Consistancy - of course it's important being somewhat consistant in their behavior, as well as with their background. If your character was a blacksmith for ten years, they're not going to suddenly forget everything they knew about blacksmithing (unless there's some story reason for that. Or to use an example of one my fav characters, Aerie's basically been a laboror for some time, since she was released from her cage, doing all kinds of chores in a travelling circus - places not generally regarded for their high degrees of pristine cleanliness. So she's not really likely to be bothered much if her clothes get ripped or torn or have mud on them.
Context - Okay, so, it turns out, real people aren't always consistant. Most people do go up and down a little over the course of even just a day, but any really drastic change in behavior should be accounted for by the circumstances in the story. Aerie again is a good example; she's normally nice, but when she's depressed and unhappy, or pushed a lot, she can get snappy and be very nasty to people, which is obviously normal. But we're not just talking about behavior here. There's historical context as well, or setting in this case. It's pretty self-explanatory - people who grew up on FR won't know much about modern technology or references, won't have been exposed to all the same societal norms and stereotypes. Or, police, actually, are quite a modern invention. I doubt how law is enforced in Amn, but it's probably not the same (before there were police, I think there were just basically Sheriffs who might hire some men, or local lords would use their own guards or hired mercenaries to keep the peace). So, anyway, there's all this stuff to think about.
Lots of times, people want to toss out everything that Bioware did with NPCs and add in all sorts of additional things, but I really do think that about 75% of the time, Bioware did have the right idea. At least where it comes to actual writing. (I'm very often not happy with characterization, though.) I do think it helps to look at what Bioware does, look at what modders do, and decide for yourself what does and doesn't work.
For me, the major design defect of the Bioware NPCs is the lack of friendship tracks. You shouldn't need to want to sleep with someone to find out more about them. I don't think a NPC's friendship needs to be as developed as a romance track, but it should be there. And writing one can be helpful if you're going to write a romance anyway, since then you can just take the friendship track and figure out how it would change if the NPC were interested in the PC. Less danger of running into melodramatic love at first sight nonsense if your romance is grounded in something more platonic first. (Obviously it depends on the NPC.) I really don't like the way romances seem to be almost mandatory for NPC mods these days, though. It cuts out a lot of other possibilities, turns every potential NPC into a sex object, reinforces the idea that the romantic relationship is the only one that matters, and generally just irritates me. Which isn't to say that I don't like romances. Just not every single NPC having one, dammit.
I like to feel like an NPC belongs in Faerun. This doesn't mean that you need to be a lore expert to write one, though. You do need to keep in mind that it's a pre-modern polytheistic society, though, with armies of monsters often banging on the front door. Your NPC also shouldn't feel like a college student who took the wrong turn somewhere. That said, if you're going to go with lore, make sure you do it in a way that's accessible to people who are less familiar with it. There's a tricky balance between info dumping and leaving people out of the loop.
I do think quests are good. You can do more character development with a quest than with all the banter in the world, but I don't really think you should toss in a quest just to have it, and this is another place where less is probably more. I sometimes like to build an NPC around some major problem they're having, and tossing in one or two quests can generally help with that.
My major suggestion, though, would be edit, edit, edit. Especially if you're just starting. It takes a while to figure out what works and what doesn't, and if you're anything like me, you'll draft things about four or five times and toss out 90% of what you started with. And that's good. The major advantage modders have over professional developers is time--you're not on a schedule, you can afford to take the novelist approach to it.
Even in the original content there are one or two points where I don't like this. For example in Chateau Irenicus Imoen references a point in which you were "skipping out of lessons in Candlekeep". Pshhhh... my 18 intelligence 18 wisdom booksih nerd was certainly NOT skipping out of Firebead Elvenhair's history lessons, thank you very much.
Personally, I've always preferred friendship to romance. I enjoy a good story that has characters who can be extremely close, but there's no sexual element attached. Besides, even with your 25 Charisma, the idea that every NPC is just going to throw themselves at you... well, it's not going to happen. It's why I never really like the idea of tacking on alignment changes to NPC's because of your influence - I like to feel that NPC's do have some mind of their own.
But anyway, the point is, when I started I had a huge number of ideas, some of them really just completely over ambitious and would have made a whole game by themselves if I did them. Although to be honest, I would probably never finish if I tried to implement everything anyway, given the meagre amount of time and resources I have. It's never a good idea to aim too high; find out what works and what you can do. But don't overdo it, since the game obviously isn't just about one character. Much as I would like it to be.
On the subject of humor/comedy though, like everything else that should stay in-character as well. Ideally it should just derive naturally from the characters and how they are and not feel too forced or trying too hard. You face some pretty grim things in the game, but if you look at doctors and soldiers who face grim things all the time in real life, you find they very often joke and make light of things because that's what gets them through the day. But anyway, Jan loves telling his stories, for example, Imoen is a bit childish and silly. Even Aerie can be funny, making dry observations, although most humor in her case would probably derive from her shyness and awkwardness in social settings, or just the fact that she's basically an alien and doesn't always get what's going on (not her suddenly acting like some weird emo-valley girl or anything really OOC like that).
And that's obviously one thing I will look for in mods. Not just the mod NPC, but other NPC's being in character as well. I don't want Minsc suddenly starting to go around kicking the butts of good for no apparent reason.
But in my opinion there is only one thing you should make sure of, then you're fine.
Don't turn your NPC into a Mary Sue.
Make sure that she has her flaws, that she isn't perfect, and that she isn't the center of attention in the game. It's alright for her to have a quest or two of her own, but make them small and don't have her steal the spotlight.
2. You're already doing a better job than Beamdog
3. ???
4. PROFIT!!
And Baldur's Gate 2 shouldn't have had an NPC that was a vampire. The vampire race is such a big part of the story, so unless that NPC had some amazing dialogue options with Bodhi and reason for joining the party to begin with, it will fail, like it did.