@Dazzu I'm often disappointed by 1Day NPCs. It's not because they were made in a day, but because the ideas are actually kinda cool but aren't given enough time or development.
One, most interestingly, is a soldier discharged because of an arm injury, so he became a custodian for the Cowled Wizards. He is a Fighter Dualed Mage, but plays more like a crossbow using wizard. Nothing wrong there.
(I know the OP said "no names" but can I please just acknowledge that you're talking about Ghareth? I feel like I'll be pleading the fifth otherwise.)
The biggest problem is the lack of development, and the fact that he's a lvl 3/4 Fighter/Mage dual in SoA.
If he were a little higher, say 6 or 7/8, I might bring him along despite his silence. In short, excellent content, but please, please... develop the OneDayNPCs! They're too interesting to just leave as is!
Well, again, part of the point is to be an exercise. Although, overall I would say that Ghareth represents one of my top two days' worth of modding of all-time.
Offering different dual-level versions of Ghareth would be a fine thing to do for an enhancement. (I had a hell of a time getting the very old Ghareth package to install on my Mac just now, so maybe a bit of a touch-up is, in fact, in order.)
@Ravenslight It is amazing to me that anyone can do any NPC mod in such a short time though. Some really talented people out there. I wonder if one of those became popular enough, if the author might consider adding more content at some point. Perhaps if their fan base let them know how much they enjoyed the NPC.
As I said, I've long considered Ghareth to be some of my best work. I believe that some NPCs have in fact been expanded beyond their one-day origins although I'm blanking on exactly which just now. And I liked the idea of expanding him so much that I used Ghareth as the template for one of the NPCs designed for the poor, poor Broken Hourglass. Alas. In that fun-to-think-about future in which I've finished de'Arnise TOB and Keto TOB and am still full of energy, life, and good ideas, yes, a full-on Ghareth would be an interesting project, but so would a lot of other things.
It's interesting that Ghareth came up late in this discussion because as I've been reading the latest wave of "what should NPC mods be like?" I've been formulating the idea that everybody who wants to write a character should--at least, in principle--start out writing a one-day NPC and fleshing it out from there. I don't literally mean that everybody should take on the one-day NPC challenge and then expand it, but that chances are, the best and most interesting things you can do with your character will be those that you can outline for yourself in a relatively short span of time. You can come up with a basic understanding of the character, and how they will develop as key milestones are reached in the game--whether that's a personal quest, an unfolding set of revelations as crucial events happen to the PC (soul-ripping, Imoen-finding, Tree-of-Life fighting, etc. etc.) or some other method. You may even start to get an inkling of how their journey will end. And that's most of what's going to make your mod a good one.
NPC modding so quickly turned into an arms race of ultimate mastery in which every character was expected to offer every feature of the genre that I think sometimes people forget to focus on developing a cohesive story. (And although I was not the first NPC modder, I was probably the first to be guilty of this offense.) The One-Day NPC concept was in large part a reaction to that trend. So even if they're not the most playable of mods, it can still be a useful discipline for storytelling purposes.
In the Dragon Age: Origins City Elf origin, the subject certainly provides a powerful emotional impact, and I thought it was handled well in the end.
That's one of the ones that was handled fairly well. It wasn't graphic, you saw enough to know it was happening but not any more then you needed. The impact worked really well. The Imoen romance mod just does not handle it well at all. Utterly distasteful.
I'm told BioShock Infinite has some good stuff on religion as well. A topic games very rarely try to touch. I'm playing through it now and look forward to seeing what it has to offer.
I'm told BioShock Infinite has some good stuff on religion as well. A topic games very rarely try to touch. I'm playing through it now and look forward to seeing what it has to offer.
Religion, philosophy, etc. BioShock Infinite is a fantastic game. It explores, but does not tackle such themes; it actually stays fairly neutral. People like to argue over "what the message was," well, I'd say they made a story with enough complexity for everyone to form their own opinion about it. Good stuff.
And I'm going to say I find that concept very compelling in the making of a NPC. Or any writing, for that matter. If the NPC's storyline attempts to shove a worldview in your face, it's just obnoxious. I can't get behind preachiness like that, even if I agree with it; it sticks out like a sore thumb.
Exactly! It need's to be subtle! Unless, they are trying to write an obnoxious ass for you to argue with, which could be fun in itself if it's done right! I don't mind a good fight from time to time!
I am going to allow myself just a little fan girl moment. I remember having a short exchange on some forum many years ago with Mr. Compton. This was back when many female players were feeling a bit left out as the base game had three romance options for a male PC and only one for female. Also many were not happy with the one they got. He told me he was making a mod with a romancable NPC for a female protagonist. I remember thinking that I really hoped he could pull it off. Not only did he pull it off, but developed ways for the NPC to have a deeper, more meaningful relationship with the PC. My heartfelt thank you for all the time you've dedicated to modding BG and the work you’ve done Mr. Compton.
Just on a random side note, if he'll let me, when work dies down A LOT I was thinking of starting work on an NPC mod based on @Southpaw... I have no idea how to work an Illithid into the game but damn it it needs to happen!! :O
Just a little clarification here. Any mod author who wishes to name their own mods name when discussing their work, is more then welcome to. An author discussing their own work is a horse of a different color. I’m sure we could all gain welcome insight from such an exchange.
@Jcompton If I may put you on the spot in the best possible way: I may not always find your characters the best of the best, but I respect you immensely. Not only as a pioneer into modding, but also as someone who understands the game's focal point: Charname. Your characters interject at just enough chatter not to feel overwhelming and have interesting concepts behind them and there's never anything too... outlandish in their quests
That, I guess, is what it comes down to: connectivity and to an extent, the illusion of officiality.
As for Illithids, I thought there actually was one.
I'd like to see more short peoples. Romancable Dwarven Defender or Barbarian or Fighter/Cleric would be fun, and gnomes get the best multiclasses of all!
@Dazzu - well, yes. It is possible to play as monster races without mods too, but you'd need to use EEKeeper to change the avatars, walking speed and some other stuff too.
@KidCarnival did a wacky Black Pits and BGEE run with a custom party of monsters - forum members (that's where @Anduin's fame as a undead mummy gnome warlock started, @KidCarnival's days as an absent-minded Beholder Paladin of Helm, @Kamigoroshi's jelly liquid form and @OneAngryMushroom ...well, he was a fungi since his birth anyway...)
@Southpaw I love every class as long as it isn't on a Dwarf. Bounty Hunter or Assassin would be perfect. Might also explain why he's wandering around on the surface not to far from Candlekeep. Damn it work I need some free time! :O
Here's an odd thing, but one I see a lot of modders afraid of:
Don't be afraid to let your characters have good stats! Sometimes you see them afraid to even allow one stat to exceed 16, let alone 15, which is bad. I'm going up against dragons and liches, my people need not be the best of the best, but need to be above average. A great character is great, but I'd prefer they be able to hold together and fulfill their battle function.
Cernd might not be so forgettable if his stats were good, or his kit were viable.
On the flipside, don't powergame. That's boring and nobody likes invincible guys who are just 2cool4u with stats far outlanding and beyond my suspension of disbelief.
I'm currently making an elven cleric/ranger with 15 str, 17 dex, 15 con, 13 int, 17 wis and 12 chr at the moment. I feel these are the stats that best reflect her character, physical condition and experiences. I don't see any reason to make an NPC horribly over powered just because I can. I like to have stats that reflect the person, as they should. I don't powergame so this isn't an issue for me. I just like to make things that feel right to me.
( That's along with my tinkering into a certain Illithid Bounty Hunter we all know I'm working on as well. )
Here's an odd thing, but one I see a lot of modders afraid of:
Don't be afraid to let your characters have good stats! Sometimes you see them afraid to even allow one stat to exceed 16, let alone 15, which is bad. I'm going up against dragons and liches, my people need not be the best of the best, but need to be above average. A great character is great, but I'd prefer they be able to hold together and fulfill their battle function.
Cernd might not be so forgettable if his stats were good, or his kit were viable.
On the flipside, don't powergame. That's boring and nobody likes invincible guys who are just 2cool4u with stats far outlanding and beyond my suspension of disbelief.
Well said. To add my two bits:
It is indeed a balance. First and foremost consider your character's concept and personality, especially for the mental stats. Then focus on balancing with the other NPCs from there. It's also very much worth noting that NPCs in BG1 had the tendency to have significantly lower stat totals than those in BGII.
"But Quartz! My NPC mod will be in both games!" Every NPC who made the BG1 to BGII jump got stat buffs; fairly significant ones, at that. Viconia's Wisdom went from 15 to 18, Jaheira's Dexterity from 14 to 17. Don't be afraid to do this with a NPC mod. I was very surprised that Overhaul didn't do this with their NPCs.
As for Illithids, I thought there actually was one.
Yep, there is already an Illithid NPC available for BG2. @CaloNord, maybe you can borrow few ideas from it. I personally find that the best way to learn modding is looking at other people code
@Erg Really?! Sweet as! Thanks for that! Bear with me I only started yesterday but it didn't take long to get the hang of the rudiments of coding an NPC. Long minutes spent gazing through other peoples code proved to be very enlightening. I also love how everyone codes with their own little oddities.
Southpaw will in time have the same personality as the real Forumite so he should be somewhat unique.
Here's an odd thing, but one I see a lot of modders afraid of:
Don't be afraid to let your characters have good stats! Sometimes you see them afraid to even allow one stat to exceed 16, let alone 15, which is bad.
There's been a pretty long cycle of discussion on this front over the past ~12 years. It has been pointed out many times that Kelsey is overpowered with his special items and fireshield and so forth, particularly because sorcerers are so poweful in the game as it is. That charge is completely accurate, but the reason was that in the very early days of mod development, we had a genuine concern that larger audiences wouldn't want to play with a character unless they brought best-in-class stats and power to bear.
It quickly became obvious that wasn't the case, and yes, we can all cite a few early mods which went around the bend, but at first it seemed like a reasonable precaution. Later, when we knew better, some of us took our foot off the accelerator, which is why Keto's stats and power are totally beside the point. (Does anybody even remember her stats? I certainly don't.)
Cernd might not be so forgettable if his stats were good, or his kit were viable.
I don't know, I've always thought that people disdained Cernd because his character is so bland and that once you finish his personal quest he really doesn't bring much to the table. 18s across the board wouldn't have helped that.
I've always felt that the BG2 NPCs can pretty easily be sorted between "A-team" and "B-team" candidates, and Cernd is a clear B-teamer for power, but (post-quest) he's at best a C-teamer for character.
"But Quartz! My NPC mod will be in both games!" Every NPC who made the BG1 to BGII jump got stat buffs; fairly significant ones, at that. Viconia's Wisdom went from 15 to 18, Jaheira's Dexterity from 14 to 17. Don't be afraid to do this with a NPC mod. I was very surprised that Overhaul didn't do this with their NPCs.
The other reason probably has to do with NPC density. Remember that core BG1 had many more NPCs than core BG2 (25 vs. 16 if I'm remembering correctly.) Not only are the threat levels extremely high in BG2, but there's not the same disposable-parts sense of "well, I've lost my cleric, but I'm sure Yeslick is hanging around here someplace!" I think there's more of an expectation that you're going to build a core group and stick with that group, and so they need to be in the rightward tail of the bell curve as far as stats are concerned.
Mod distribution now means that BG2 has a much, much larger available cast of characters, but they're all still competing with the canonical crew for party slots.
But yes, it's a good point that there's no reason that modders, or third-party-official-touchup-studios, can't pull the same stunt Bioware did with the transition and amp up the threat level.
Kelsey is a Sorc, end of discussion. I rarely used his cloak, because if he needs to use his cloak for damage, then I have bigger problems in letting melee characters touch my casters. He could have 9s across the board and still manage decently because 'Sorcerer.'
By that logic of items, why would I ever change Valygar's armor? It's amazing with Charm immunity, and resistances to fire, acid AND magic are going to last you well into endgame where enemies will hit you almost always unless you have -20~ AC anyway. His sword will also remain valuable as it makes casters really mad to get poisoned.
Keldorn's armor is great as well when you don't need elemental resistance from a skinned dragon as those saving throws are always a welcome way to free your accessory slots for other boons besides prot rings. His sword less so.
People underplay the value of Nalia's unremovable ring. It's a ring of Fire Resist and +2 Prot ring: I WOULDN'T REMOVE IT IF I COULD! The only real problem I guess is a lack of thief stats, but a mage who can use bows is not a bad thing, even if Imoen does that better.
If I may site that very other powegamey extreme then: Weimer's mods! The guy can pioneer, but I need only bring up the fact that Solaufein, whose name needlessly has every vowel in it, and the fact that once you get his sword, you won't even see his portait behind all the buffs he receives... AND he can dual it with either FoA or DoE flails.
Nevermind his stat spread being way too perfect with 18s in all the right stats, AND his alignment will suit your playstyle.
I don't know, I've always thought that people disdained Cernd because his character is so bland and that once you finish his personal quest he really doesn't bring much to the table. 18s across the board wouldn't have helped that.
I've always felt that the BG2 NPCs can pretty easily be sorted between "A-team" and "B-team" candidates, and Cernd is a clear B-teamer for power, but (post-quest) he's at best a C-teamer for character.
The same can be said about Minsc, but worse.
Cernd has no other single class druids to steal his shtick of being nature's favorite specialist as Jahiera will stop gaining druid levels after a while, leaving him free to gain armies of fire elementals.
Minsc however is in a world where other warriors have more perks from kits, more spells, grand mastery or Carsomyr to make him decidely average. Sure, he's a great Vamp Slayer with mace points and his new racial enemy, but his health pool could be better for a warrior, and why use Minsc when Anomen can become just as mighty a vamp slayer and can even turn them?
Lacking an extra 1/2 attack is resolved by going grandmaster, and dex problems can be bracered... or just use protection spells.
The worst part of Minsc is his lack of quest without UB. With it, things can change as the reward can be HUGE and gamechanging, but Minsc otherwise falls behind as having the highest str isn't what it used to be with all the giant belts about.
Speaking of Boo, he wastes a quick slot. That's pretty important in BG2 when you may very well need every slot.
Even still, from an RP perspective, Anomen just has better synergy with mods as the guy must lock horns with EVERYONE!
And yet... I'm pretty sure people take Minsc in their parties beyond the tutorial dungeon!
Minsc doesn't need good stats, I love him anyway :T
Which brings another point up: The value of a companion is not just determined by his stats or quests. If a character is likable/ interesting enough, people will take him with them anyway. And if the character turns out to be dead weight combatwise, people will fix that via Keeper if they really want to keep said character (pun totally intended).
I'd like an NPC that isn't a common trope. Neera is manic-pixie-dream-girl, Dorn is the dark brooding bad man, and Rasaad is - well, I didn't use Rasaad (monks, innit?).
It will be great to see an NPC with a personality that doesn't fit into typical cookie-cutter moulds.
I found this blog on narrative design by David Gaider, very interesting. Although not specifically about writing a mod NPC, I found some of his thoughts on writing NPCs and quest design in general, very interesting. I also especially enjoyed his brief comments about the first game he helped make. Baldur’s Gate II. http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/36331574543/on-narrative-design-part-1
Comments
Offering different dual-level versions of Ghareth would be a fine thing to do for an enhancement. (I had a hell of a time getting the very old Ghareth package to install on my Mac just now, so maybe a bit of a touch-up is, in fact, in order.) As I said, I've long considered Ghareth to be some of my best work. I believe that some NPCs have in fact been expanded beyond their one-day origins although I'm blanking on exactly which just now. And I liked the idea of expanding him so much that I used Ghareth as the template for one of the NPCs designed for the poor, poor Broken Hourglass. Alas. In that fun-to-think-about future in which I've finished de'Arnise TOB and Keto TOB and am still full of energy, life, and good ideas, yes, a full-on Ghareth would be an interesting project, but so would a lot of other things.
It's interesting that Ghareth came up late in this discussion because as I've been reading the latest wave of "what should NPC mods be like?" I've been formulating the idea that everybody who wants to write a character should--at least, in principle--start out writing a one-day NPC and fleshing it out from there. I don't literally mean that everybody should take on the one-day NPC challenge and then expand it, but that chances are, the best and most interesting things you can do with your character will be those that you can outline for yourself in a relatively short span of time. You can come up with a basic understanding of the character, and how they will develop as key milestones are reached in the game--whether that's a personal quest, an unfolding set of revelations as crucial events happen to the PC (soul-ripping, Imoen-finding, Tree-of-Life fighting, etc. etc.) or some other method. You may even start to get an inkling of how their journey will end. And that's most of what's going to make your mod a good one.
NPC modding so quickly turned into an arms race of ultimate mastery in which every character was expected to offer every feature of the genre that I think sometimes people forget to focus on developing a cohesive story. (And although I was not the first NPC modder, I was probably the first to be guilty of this offense.) The One-Day NPC concept was in large part a reaction to that trend. So even if they're not the most playable of mods, it can still be a useful discipline for storytelling purposes.
I'm told BioShock Infinite has some good stuff on religion as well. A topic games very rarely try to touch. I'm playing through it now and look forward to seeing what it has to offer.
And I'm going to say I find that concept very compelling in the making of a NPC. Or any writing, for that matter. If the NPC's storyline attempts to shove a worldview in your face, it's just obnoxious. I can't get behind preachiness like that, even if I agree with it; it sticks out like a sore thumb.
I don't mind a good fight from time to time!
...based on my last playthroughs, I would suggest him a Bounty Hunter or an Assassin. (Yea, I played all Thief kits through BGEE + into BG2EE)
Or if you don't like Thieves...
ILLITHID SUN SOUL MONK!
That, I guess, is what it comes down to: connectivity and to an extent, the illusion of officiality.
As for Illithids, I thought there actually was one.
I'd like to see more short peoples. Romancable Dwarven Defender or Barbarian or Fighter/Cleric would be fun, and gnomes get the best multiclasses of all!
@KidCarnival did a wacky Black Pits and BGEE run with a custom party of monsters - forum members (that's where @Anduin's fame as a undead mummy gnome warlock started, @KidCarnival's days as an absent-minded Beholder Paladin of Helm, @Kamigoroshi's jelly liquid form and @OneAngryMushroom ...well, he was a fungi since his birth anyway...)
Don't be afraid to let your characters have good stats! Sometimes you see them afraid to even allow one stat to exceed 16, let alone 15, which is bad. I'm going up against dragons and liches, my people need not be the best of the best, but need to be above average. A great character is great, but I'd prefer they be able to hold together and fulfill their battle function.
Cernd might not be so forgettable if his stats were good, or his kit were viable.
On the flipside, don't powergame. That's boring and nobody likes invincible guys who are just 2cool4u with stats far outlanding and beyond my suspension of disbelief.
I don't powergame so this isn't an issue for me. I just like to make things that feel right to me.
( That's along with my tinkering into a certain Illithid Bounty Hunter we all know I'm working on as well. )
It is indeed a balance. First and foremost consider your character's concept and personality, especially for the mental stats. Then focus on balancing with the other NPCs from there. It's also very much worth noting that NPCs in BG1 had the tendency to have significantly lower stat totals than those in BGII.
"But Quartz! My NPC mod will be in both games!"
Every NPC who made the BG1 to BGII jump got stat buffs; fairly significant ones, at that. Viconia's Wisdom went from 15 to 18, Jaheira's Dexterity from 14 to 17. Don't be afraid to do this with a NPC mod. I was very surprised that Overhaul didn't do this with their NPCs.
@Ravenslight can I break the thread rule and name (or link) this mod for @CaloNord?
Southpaw will in time have the same personality as the real Forumite so he should be somewhat unique.
It quickly became obvious that wasn't the case, and yes, we can all cite a few early mods which went around the bend, but at first it seemed like a reasonable precaution. Later, when we knew better, some of us took our foot off the accelerator, which is why Keto's stats and power are totally beside the point. (Does anybody even remember her stats? I certainly don't.) I don't know, I've always thought that people disdained Cernd because his character is so bland and that once you finish his personal quest he really doesn't bring much to the table. 18s across the board wouldn't have helped that.
I've always felt that the BG2 NPCs can pretty easily be sorted between "A-team" and "B-team" candidates, and Cernd is a clear B-teamer for power, but (post-quest) he's at best a C-teamer for character. The other reason probably has to do with NPC density. Remember that core BG1 had many more NPCs than core BG2 (25 vs. 16 if I'm remembering correctly.) Not only are the threat levels extremely high in BG2, but there's not the same disposable-parts sense of "well, I've lost my cleric, but I'm sure Yeslick is hanging around here someplace!" I think there's more of an expectation that you're going to build a core group and stick with that group, and so they need to be in the rightward tail of the bell curve as far as stats are concerned.
Mod distribution now means that BG2 has a much, much larger available cast of characters, but they're all still competing with the canonical crew for party slots.
But yes, it's a good point that there's no reason that modders, or third-party-official-touchup-studios, can't pull the same stunt Bioware did with the transition and amp up the threat level.
By that logic of items, why would I ever change Valygar's armor? It's amazing with Charm immunity, and resistances to fire, acid AND magic are going to last you well into endgame where enemies will hit you almost always unless you have -20~ AC anyway. His sword will also remain valuable as it makes casters really mad to get poisoned.
Keldorn's armor is great as well when you don't need elemental resistance from a skinned dragon as those saving throws are always a welcome way to free your accessory slots for other boons besides prot rings. His sword less so.
People underplay the value of Nalia's unremovable ring. It's a ring of Fire Resist and +2 Prot ring: I WOULDN'T REMOVE IT IF I COULD! The only real problem I guess is a lack of thief stats, but a mage who can use bows is not a bad thing, even if Imoen does that better.
If I may site that very other powegamey extreme then: Weimer's mods! The guy can pioneer, but I need only bring up the fact that Solaufein, whose name needlessly has every vowel in it, and the fact that once you get his sword, you won't even see his portait behind all the buffs he receives... AND he can dual it with either FoA or DoE flails.
Nevermind his stat spread being way too perfect with 18s in all the right stats, AND his alignment will suit your playstyle. The same can be said about Minsc, but worse.
Cernd has no other single class druids to steal his shtick of being nature's favorite specialist as Jahiera will stop gaining druid levels after a while, leaving him free to gain armies of fire elementals.
Minsc however is in a world where other warriors have more perks from kits, more spells, grand mastery or Carsomyr to make him decidely average. Sure, he's a great Vamp Slayer with mace points and his new racial enemy, but his health pool could be better for a warrior, and why use Minsc when Anomen can become just as mighty a vamp slayer and can even turn them?
Lacking an extra 1/2 attack is resolved by going grandmaster, and dex problems can be bracered... or just use protection spells.
The worst part of Minsc is his lack of quest without UB. With it, things can change as the reward can be HUGE and gamechanging, but Minsc otherwise falls behind as having the highest str isn't what it used to be with all the giant belts about.
Speaking of Boo, he wastes a quick slot. That's pretty important in BG2 when you may very well need every slot.
Even still, from an RP perspective, Anomen just has better synergy with mods as the guy must lock horns with EVERYONE!
And yet... I'm pretty sure people take Minsc in their parties beyond the tutorial dungeon!
Which brings another point up: The value of a companion is not just determined by his stats or quests.
If a character is likable/ interesting enough, people will take him with them anyway. And if the character turns out to be dead weight combatwise, people will fix that via Keeper if they really want to keep said character (pun totally intended).
It will be great to see an NPC with a personality that doesn't fit into typical cookie-cutter moulds.
@alastair93 - That is the first time I've ever read Dorn being referred to as 'brooding' ;D
http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/36331574543/on-narrative-design-part-1