Regarding Pillars of Eternity: we still don't know for sure how exactly it will be implemented. All we know is that Pillars of Eternity has eight recruit-able companions, its companions will display their own unique personalities over the course of the game, and are designed to have a driving interest in the player's central conflict. Their personalities and motivations open plot branches and generate conflicts for players to resolve over the course of the story. They are highly reactive to the player's actions and to the world around them.
"The player's decision [regarding different plot events] would also affect future interactions with that NPC."
I am currently enjoying another run through of Dragon Age: Origins. It reminds me of the number one thing I need for an NPC in a RPG. They have to hook me emotionally. For me, there is no reason to play yet another epic battle, to defeat yet another epic boss, unless I’ve become hooked into caring about my companions. Especially true for a repeat play through. I know many enjoy the combat and challenge of making the game as hard as possible. Not me.
Give me a wise mother figure like Wynne, that my PC can look up to like the mother she never knew. Or Sten, the interesting foreigner that she can learn to respect. And love interests. In real life it IS a big part of the game, so to speak. It is no wonder that romance in games is so popular.
I am not sure if you can give the credit 100% to the companions. The thing that - in my opinion - makes Baldur's Gate (2) better than Dragon Age: Origins is the constant feeling of agency, no matter what kind of character you play.
In DA:O you are that one guy who was at the right time at the right place (or rather at the wrong time at the wrong place) and then get to fight an ominous and characterless big enemy. In Baldur's Gate, you are just some kid who suddenly finds out that it's part of this huge ass prophecy, you get personally hunted by everyone and then become the center of it. Not to mention the ingenious way the main quest in Shadows of Amn is set up: Your protagonist gets motivations to go on that are above adventure, fame, riches and power. You have to save the closest thing you ever had to a family and get revenge on the guy who captured and tortured you and your friends. There is a reason why I played through the BG series over 30 times by now whilst I played Dragon Age only once.
Every time I play the game with a fundamentally different Protagonist it actually feels new and different. When I tried to replay DA:O and DA2 I gave up after a short time because it just all felt exactly the same, even though I played a completely different character.
To get back to the topic of companions: I think giving you the ability to take every possible companion along with you on your adventure takes away a HUGE amount of replayability. The companions in BG (especially in BG2) have a legit impact on a whole lot of quests and dialouges (at least it feels like that). The only two companions that feel important to the plot in DA:O are Alistair and Morrigan. The other companions always feel like they only tag along because they can/ have no choice and not because they actually want to.
I think the problem is, again, the plot: In BG your companions are not even fully aware most of the time what the plot is which in result means that they are unlikely to go "nope, to dangerous for me, screw this" because they don't know there will be real danger till it gets to them. And by the time the whole overarcing plot unfolds, the companions have become your friends and would never leave you. I just never got that feeling in any other game like it (except for Neverwinter Nights 2 and Mask of the Betrayer).
I do prefer a story that is centered around my PC, like in Baldur’s Gate, rather then the route Dragon Age takes with story segments moving to a different PC each time.
I found several of them memorable, but it sounds like they didn’t do a good job of hooking you. What kind of character would do so for you?
I obviously can't speak for @Sergio but I think it's important that companions need to have a reason to go on besides "just tagging along". That can be a deep emotional bond with the protagonist (Imoen), trying to learn through the protagonist (Aerie), vengeance (Jaheira), protection (Viconia) etc. The protagonist has to feel like they are the only/ best person the companion can be with right now.
There is a reason why I rarely ever take Mazzy, Valygar or Nalia with me, even though I like them. Simply because after their quests are done, they don't have any real reason to stay with you or show any other sort of compassion towards the protagonist.
Of course, there are characters who don't have any (showing) agency and still work such as Yoshimo and Jan simply because they are fun to be around and (in vanilla) your only (legit) options as thiefs which are crucial.
So, either the companion has to make you feel important to them or they have to feel important to you.
If you manage to create a companion like that, who does not "take over your game" like many other mod companions do, then you succeeded.
Perhaps it'd be a good idea to go over mods I either liked most definitely, or mods I liked hypothetically had they gone somewhere further.
In truth, I don't hate mods, or modders unless the person themselves does something deplorable, I just want to feel like this character fits in with the world around them.
Perhaps it'd be a good idea to go over mods I either liked most definitely, or mods I liked hypothetically had they gone somewhere further.
In truth, I don't hate mods, or modders unless the person themselves does something deplorable, I just want to feel like this character fits in with the world around them.
Can you tell us what you have liked or disliked when playing some of the mods you have tried, without naming specific ones? For example, I have played some mods that made the mod’s NPC feel more important then my PC, and I didn’t like that. Or, I once played a mod where the mod’s NPC had more dialogue interjections then the Bioware ones did, and I did like that. Something along those lines, just for example. That way we don’t get into bashing anyone’s work, who isn’t here to explain their work. I would like to hear what you have liked, or disliked. Just not a specific mod’s name please.
I don't understand why you're so determined not to name names here. You're basically saying "Tell us which mods did things you liked/didn't like but don't give us any frame of reference." How is that supposed to be helpful?
@Glam_Vrock: I would guess it's to make sure that the thread doesn't get derailed because people will start arguing over the quality of certain mods. Not to mention that way to many people in the fandom take mods and modders for granted which results in setting the bar way to high for certain mods and personally attacking modders and their FREE work in which they put their personal time and effort without payment (I have seen this multiple times now here in the forum, it's really not pretty). So yeah, I understand why.
Though I do have to agree, it is hard to explain what one means if we are not allowed to give specific examples. Maybe make a seperate thread where people are free to argue or something? Or send specifics per PM?
I don't know if I can avoid naming, but it'll be hard to not guess.
I will, instead, call these mods a trinity of Tutu.
Three mod characters able to interact with each other if installed in the right order. One is a gnomish cleric with a penchant for books, another is a slime manifested in a humanoid body, and the last is a fighter/mage with bright eyed idealism.
While they're a bit limited by BG1's limited interactions, they are fun characters because they're unique but never overshadowing. One of them isn't even a race you've likely even heard of, but he still stays low key.
The best is the gnome: not being chaotic or wacky is a welcome start. She's well voiced, which isn't a must, but certainly helps do better than wooden sounding fetish characters. She never takes center stage except maybe during her quest, and as stated before, she's unique, but not too unique that it rules your game.
None of them take over, and if you have BG1NPCPack, they'll be decently fit amongst the ranks of the originals.
To me, few NPCs come close in quality to the sheer charm involved. It feels less like someone wanted to share a secret fantasy and just wanted to instill a sense of diversity within my game... and I'm okay with that!
Oh yeah, that reminds me: I personally prefer my companions to be more "down to earth" if that makes any sense. There are so many vanilla and mod companions out there that are over the top in some way (halfling paladin, one armed dwarven smith with a fully functional robot arm, floating eye (?!), tieflings, dimensional traveler, vampire, etc.) that I really enjoy it when I get one that seems (context wise) realistic.
I get a feeling that many want their OC companions to be "special" and then quickly drift away into Mary-Sue/ Gary-Stu territory.
If I may give one specific example, I once did a playthrough with Nephele. While the mod is not very extensive, so to speak and she doesn't even have a soundset, she just worked the way she was. You actually got the feeling that she is a fairly normal citizen of Trademeet while pretty much everyone else seems to be "born to be an adventurer". It was just such a nice contrast to have her in the party because that way the oddballs got even more way to shine of which quite a few exist in BG2.
In every thread I have read where the names of mods are encouraged, one set of views have gotten strongly represented, while any differing options got quickly squelched. I wanted to create an atmosphere of acceptance, where people could voice their likes and dislikes without being berated for them. By now I know why some people strongly dislike certain mods, we all do. What is it about them that others like? I don’t know. I’d love to hear why.
Then there is the notion that modders owe us something. They don’t. They do what they do for free. They offer their work to us for free. We can choose to use their mod or not. I simply want to avoid bashing someone’s work who has kindly offered to share it with me. It doesn’t matter if I don’t like it. Someone else will.
I understand that it is easier to make a point if you can give the name of a mod for reference. I feel tethered by that restriction as well. Their are certain mods that I have played where I really liked, or disliked the way they did certain things, and it would be easier for me to make my point if I could name them. Unfortunately once that is done it opens up the possibility for it to turn into a thread of I hate this mod and modder X.
There is something that I have come to really appreciate when a mods author chooses to include it in their readme. A more detailed description of what I can expect to experience with the content and NPC. Things such as, does the NPC tend to have more to say in the game then the original NPCs. What other NPCs are they likely to get along with. If a romance is included in the mod, what rating, in the authors opinion, is the included content. PG, or more mature. Always subjective, but still helpful. Is there added combat. If so, is it designed to be difficult or simply there for story purposes. How extensive is the use of PIDs? I find I can get a better feel for if I am likely to enjoy having the NPC in my game if the description is detailed.
I’m going to try playing devil’s advocate here. Suppose I’m a role-player who really likes to get into the head of my chosen protagonist. Suppose I’ve decided that my Bhaalspawn is still very young when he is forced to leave Candlekeep to make his way in the world. Say, 16 or 17. Suppose I’ve decided he is a romantic hearted young lad who spent much time reading romantic tales in Candlekeep and dreaming of a lady whom he could one day, capture the heart of. It would make sense for this young lad to be attracted to a young lady who’s heart was as gentle and romantic as his own. Suppose he is a paladin who sees good and evil as very black and white. He would never fall in love with a lady who didn’t view the world the same. Hmm… now I need a romance option for him as this would be very high on his list of priorities as he makes his way in the world. An NPC mod that would fit this protagonist would probably not appeal to many people, but maybe there is one out there…
Now this protagonist is probably not one I would want to play personally, for one thing I always play a female. If there were a similar mod for a female protagonist, I might. Depending on what other content the mod contained, and how I intended on role-playing my current character. There are many ways people view their protagonist. This is why I feel that the more different mod options that are out there, the better. Discouraging modders from crafting ones that don’t appeal to us personally seems counter productive to me. Let us all enjoy this uniquely wonderful game in our own way.
Then there is the notion that modders owe us something. They don’t. They do what they do for free. They offer their work to us for free. We can choose to use their mod or not. I simply want to avoid bashing someone’s work who has kindly offered to share it with me. It doesn’t matter if I don’t like it. Someone else will.
Negative feedback is more useful than no feedback.
Discouraging modders from crafting ones that don’t appeal to us personally seems counter productive to me.
Then what's the point of this thread? Every time someone says "I don't like when mods do this," whether they name names or not, they're discouraging people from making mods that don't appeal to them.
But in all seriousness I would say probably a mod that uses a kit not currently used by another mod out there. I'm not really up on all the different NPC mods but a Shadowdancer or Dark Moon Monk come to mind.
If I may give one specific example, I once did a playthrough with Nephele. While the mod is not very extensive, so to speak and she doesn't even have a soundset, she just worked the way she was. You actually got the feeling that she is a fairly normal citizen of Trademeet while pretty much everyone else seems to be "born to be an adventurer". It was just such a nice contrast to have her in the party because that way the oddballs got even more way to shine of which quite a few exist in BG2.
I'm glad you enjoyed her! She was a lot of fun to write, though (like all my mods) I wish I could go back and do a major edit of all the dialog, heh. Nephele was a direct response to those Mary-Sue NPCs, for sure.
I do feel that voice is important. Not because I want the NPC to talk my ear off, but because it also helps in combat.
Yea yea, my weapon has no effect gets annoying when the npc says it constantly, but if you're letting them, then you might just be wasting arrows.
Silent NPCs aren't always the easiest to work with, especially if they're combat casters who might get interrupted, especially for those who don't use subtitles.
@Dazzu: I actually modified the mod a bit to give Nephele one of the Icewind Dale voicesets for my playthrough with her. This was some time ago, so I don't really remember how I did it but I *think* I checked via Near Infinity what her voicesets would be named, picked a voiceset I extracted previously from IWD, renamed the files accordingly and put them into the override folder. Took me maybe ten minutes or so.
@Glam_Vrock: While it is true that negative critique is better than none at all, most people utterly fail to see the difference between negative critique and verbally attacking the content and it's creator. I am an artist, believe me, I know what I am talking about.
- Examples - What negative critique should be: "Character X has to many banters for my taste and is to powerful of a fighter, thus breaking the balance of my game." What most people make negative critique look like: "Character X is stupid, the mod is terrible and I regret playing it." Throw in swearwords and bad grammar for more realism.
Way to many people do take mods for granted. Just look around the forums and you will see that. Raven's worries are completely founded.
@LiamEsler: Hey, you are welcome I love your works, some of your mods are must-installs for me
@Ravenslight: I don't know, if you want to make an NPC mod, go with whatever you like the most. Even if it won't really fit with the rest of the roster, there will be people who enjoy it. Many of us mod-players are happy enough to get more and more content aka keeping the game alive.
But yeah, what you could do is to write down some concepts and put up a poll if you are not sure what the players want. Though this might backfire because then you raise people's expectations a lot which means more potential bashing if the mod doesn't turn out exactly like they want it
What most people make negative critique look like: "Character X is stupid, the mod is terrible and I regret playing it." Throw in swearwords and bad grammar for more realism.
Way to many people do take mods for granted. Just look around the forums and you will see that.
No. No, I don't see that. You go into almost any forum for any NPC, you will not find a single thread saying "I didn't like this mod." Unless you mean this forum specifically, and even then, I've only seen this kind of reaction to two specific NPCs which I won't name but everybody knows who they are. And even then, people weren't just calling them rubbish. They were pointing out actual flaws.
@Glam_Vrock: It's not useful, it's disheartening. You don't learn anything from "what you did is shit". Instead of encouraging content creators to do better in the future, it discourages them to create content all togther. Not everyone is blessed with a lot of self-assurance ESPECIALLY not aspiring content creators. That's a fact, been there, done that.
But yeah, believe what you want, if Raven doesn't want you to post negative critique on anybody's mods in *her* thread than this is something you have to accept or you will have to get out.
But enough of this, really. This is a stupid discussion that I had way to often by now. I am done with this topic.
You don't learn anything from "what you did is shit"
You learn what someone thought of your work. You learn that you still need to improve. You learn that you will never create something that everyone likes, and eventually, you learn not to take it so hard.
@Ravenslight: Hey, also another idea: It always bothers me a bit if the portraits of characters look like famous characters/ people in mods or don't fit the BG art style at all (3D rendered portraits for example). Doing a collaboration with (fan)artists would be a solution. Look around DeviantArt for example, there are tons of artists who you just have to ask if you may use one of their drawings (just don't forget to credit them ).
@Ravenslight: Hey, also another idea: It always bothers me a bit if the portraits of characters look like famous characters/ people in mods or don't fit the BG art style at all (3D rendered portraits for example). Doing a collaboration with (fan)artists would be a solution. Look around DeviantArt for example, there are tons of artists who you just have to ask if you may use one of their drawings (just don't forget to credit them ).
I agree, having portraits that fit in well with the game is a big plus. We have been extremely fortunate in that regard in having Isandir graciously agree to provide portraits for both Kerick and the secondary NPCs for our mod. I hope we will be as fortunate in finding the right voice for him as well.
Hm, yes, the voice. Those are always hard to find. Making voicesets from other sources might help, like I mentioned before, I like using the IWD soundsets. If I knew how to get the soundsets from NWN and NWN2, I would use these as well.
(And why do I suddenly want a NWN2 Sand companion mod for BG ...?)
Comments
Definitely, we can't bury this topic.
Regarding Pillars of Eternity: we still don't know for sure how exactly it will be implemented. All we know is that Pillars of Eternity has eight recruit-able companions, its companions will display their own unique personalities over the course of the game, and are designed to have a driving interest in the player's central conflict. Their personalities and motivations open plot branches and generate conflicts for players to resolve over the course of the story. They are highly reactive to the player's actions and to the world around them.
"The player's decision [regarding different plot events] would also affect future interactions with that NPC."
I'm not saying the idea is bad if done right, but it makes me feel jaded as hell.
Give me a wise mother figure like Wynne, that my PC can look up to like the mother she never knew. Or Sten, the interesting foreigner that she can learn to respect. And love interests. In real life it IS a big part of the game, so to speak. It is no wonder that romance in games is so popular.
In DA:O you are that one guy who was at the right time at the right place (or rather at the wrong time at the wrong place) and then get to fight an ominous and characterless big enemy. In Baldur's Gate, you are just some kid who suddenly finds out that it's part of this huge ass prophecy, you get personally hunted by everyone and then become the center of it. Not to mention the ingenious way the main quest in Shadows of Amn is set up:
Your protagonist gets motivations to go on that are above adventure, fame, riches and power. You have to save the closest thing you ever had to a family and get revenge on the guy who captured and tortured you and your friends. There is a reason why I played through the BG series over 30 times by now whilst I played Dragon Age only once.
Every time I play the game with a fundamentally different Protagonist it actually feels new and different. When I tried to replay DA:O and DA2 I gave up after a short time because it just all felt exactly the same, even though I played a completely different character.
To get back to the topic of companions: I think giving you the ability to take every possible companion along with you on your adventure takes away a HUGE amount of replayability. The companions in BG (especially in BG2) have a legit impact on a whole lot of quests and dialouges (at least it feels like that). The only two companions that feel important to the plot in DA:O are Alistair and Morrigan. The other companions always feel like they only tag along because they can/ have no choice and not because they actually want to.
I think the problem is, again, the plot: In BG your companions are not even fully aware most of the time what the plot is which in result means that they are unlikely to go "nope, to dangerous for me, screw this" because they don't know there will be real danger till it gets to them. And by the time the whole overarcing plot unfolds, the companions have become your friends and would never leave you. I just never got that feeling in any other game like it (except for Neverwinter Nights 2 and Mask of the Betrayer).
There is a reason why I rarely ever take Mazzy, Valygar or Nalia with me, even though I like them. Simply because after their quests are done, they don't have any real reason to stay with you or show any other sort of compassion towards the protagonist.
Of course, there are characters who don't have any (showing) agency and still work such as Yoshimo and Jan simply because they are fun to be around and (in vanilla) your only (legit) options as thiefs which are crucial.
So, either the companion has to make you feel important to them or they have to feel important to you.
If you manage to create a companion like that, who does not "take over your game" like many other mod companions do, then you succeeded.
In truth, I don't hate mods, or modders unless the person themselves does something deplorable, I just want to feel like this character fits in with the world around them.
I look forward to your opinions.
Though I do have to agree, it is hard to explain what one means if we are not allowed to give specific examples. Maybe make a seperate thread where people are free to argue or something? Or send specifics per PM?
I will, instead, call these mods a trinity of Tutu.
Three mod characters able to interact with each other if installed in the right order. One is a gnomish cleric with a penchant for books, another is a slime manifested in a humanoid body, and the last is a fighter/mage with bright eyed idealism.
While they're a bit limited by BG1's limited interactions, they are fun characters because they're unique but never overshadowing. One of them isn't even a race you've likely even heard of, but he still stays low key.
The best is the gnome: not being chaotic or wacky is a welcome start. She's well voiced, which isn't a must, but certainly helps do better than wooden sounding fetish characters. She never takes center stage except maybe during her quest, and as stated before, she's unique, but not too unique that it rules your game.
None of them take over, and if you have BG1NPCPack, they'll be decently fit amongst the ranks of the originals.
To me, few NPCs come close in quality to the sheer charm involved. It feels less like someone wanted to share a secret fantasy and just wanted to instill a sense of diversity within my game... and I'm okay with that!
I get a feeling that many want their OC companions to be "special" and then quickly drift away into Mary-Sue/ Gary-Stu territory.
If I may give one specific example, I once did a playthrough with Nephele. While the mod is not very extensive, so to speak and she doesn't even have a soundset, she just worked the way she was. You actually got the feeling that she is a fairly normal citizen of Trademeet while pretty much everyone else seems to be "born to be an adventurer". It was just such a nice contrast to have her in the party because that way the oddballs got even more way to shine of which quite a few exist in BG2.
Then there is the notion that modders owe us something. They don’t. They do what they do for free. They offer their work to us for free. We can choose to use their mod or not. I simply want to avoid bashing someone’s work who has kindly offered to share it with me. It doesn’t matter if I don’t like it. Someone else will.
I understand that it is easier to make a point if you can give the name of a mod for reference. I feel tethered by that restriction as well. Their are certain mods that I have played where I really liked, or disliked the way they did certain things, and it would be easier for me to make my point if I could name them. Unfortunately once that is done it opens up the possibility for it to turn into a thread of I hate this mod and modder X.
Now this protagonist is probably not one I would want to play personally, for one thing I always play a female. If there were a similar mod for a female protagonist, I might. Depending on what other content the mod contained, and how I intended on role-playing my current character. There are many ways people view their protagonist. This is why I feel that the more different mod options that are out there, the better. Discouraging modders from crafting ones that don’t appeal to us personally seems counter productive to me. Let us all enjoy this uniquely wonderful game in our own way.
then that would be pretty cool as well.
Yea yea, my weapon has no effect gets annoying when the npc says it constantly, but if you're letting them, then you might just be wasting arrows.
Silent NPCs aren't always the easiest to work with, especially if they're combat casters who might get interrupted, especially for those who don't use subtitles.
I actually modified the mod a bit to give Nephele one of the Icewind Dale voicesets for my playthrough with her. This was some time ago, so I don't really remember how I did it but I *think* I checked via Near Infinity what her voicesets would be named, picked a voiceset I extracted previously from IWD, renamed the files accordingly and put them into the override folder. Took me maybe ten minutes or so.
@Glam_Vrock:
While it is true that negative critique is better than none at all, most people utterly fail to see the difference between negative critique and verbally attacking the content and it's creator. I am an artist, believe me, I know what I am talking about.
- Examples -
What negative critique should be: "Character X has to many banters for my taste and is to powerful of a fighter, thus breaking the balance of my game."
What most people make negative critique look like: "Character X is stupid, the mod is terrible and I regret playing it." Throw in swearwords and bad grammar for more realism.
Way to many people do take mods for granted. Just look around the forums and you will see that. Raven's worries are completely founded.
@LiamEsler:
Hey, you are welcome
@Ravenslight:
I don't know, if you want to make an NPC mod, go with whatever you like the most. Even if it won't really fit with the rest of the roster, there will be people who enjoy it. Many of us mod-players are happy enough to get more and more content aka keeping the game alive.
But yeah, what you could do is to write down some concepts and put up a poll if you are not sure what the players want. Though this might backfire because then you raise people's expectations a lot which means more potential bashing if the mod doesn't turn out exactly like they want it
It's not useful, it's disheartening. You don't learn anything from "what you did is shit".
Instead of encouraging content creators to do better in the future, it discourages them to create content all togther. Not everyone is blessed with a lot of self-assurance ESPECIALLY not aspiring content creators. That's a fact, been there, done that.
But yeah, believe what you want, if Raven doesn't want you to post negative critique on anybody's mods in *her* thread than this is something you have to accept or you will have to get out.
But enough of this, really. This is a stupid discussion that I had way to often by now. I am done with this topic.
Hey, also another idea: It always bothers me a bit if the portraits of characters look like famous characters/ people in mods or don't fit the BG art style at all (3D rendered portraits for example). Doing a collaboration with (fan)artists would be a solution. Look around DeviantArt for example, there are tons of artists who you just have to ask if you may use one of their drawings (just don't forget to credit them
(And why do I suddenly want a NWN2 Sand companion mod for BG ...?)