It is important to remember that non-constructive criticism amounts to personal attack... creators are not divorced from their creations! Nobody can learn anything useful but 'dont place any importance on sweeping generalizations and attacks', it wont make you better.
Not being open to any criticism is, as I said before, a great way to not improve! Its up to the community to help a creator discern the valid from trolling... same as any art. Shutting down all criticism is excessive.
It should be possible to state what aspects of a mod without outrightly naming it.
Art fitting in is good... I support mods being as seamless as possible. Most mods people complain about (hey! This free content isnt good enough!) have a tendency to be jarringly out of chatacter for the game or universe.
(chuckles) Probably not the best day to ask that question if the colorful language I’m hearing from the other room at the moment is any indication. Hubby was already having trouble with his coding this morning when his PC crashed. I think I will wait for a while to ask if he made any progress today.
What can be said of portraits can also be said of voice work. Us voice actors-to-be want to get our names out there just as badly. Search on voiceactingalliance and someone will heed the call!
As for vile hate, the opposite is equally as useful/useless.
Saying something is good with little explanation why only gets your ego explosive.
As I said before, you need to know WHAT you did right or wrong to really be able to grow and adapt, and no, making revisions is NOT bad, it shows humble willingness to grow.
I'll give the positive example here:
I like this character. That tells very little.
I found the character synergizes well with the party and is well aligned. Ok... I didn't learn much, other than that I might be good at character dynamics... but what about next character?
I liked the way she had an interesting dialogue with my party. She never seemed to speak up too much but spoke enough that I never felt like she was invisible. Unfortunately, she kept talking about her one subject just a BIT too much, as though she were obsessive. Seemed a bit offputting. That and the stat requirements for romance really limited my character choices.
This is interesting! It's not a backhanded compliment or snide, but it offers insight to both the patron's likes and dislikes. Also, the stat thing is something even some good mods need to keep in mind. Seriously!
I could reverse this for the negative stuff, but my point still stands. I hope.
It is important to remember that non-constructive criticism amounts to personal attack... creators are not divorced from their creations! Nobody can learn anything useful but 'dont place any importance on sweeping generalizations and attacks', it wont make you better.
Dude, if your work gets an overwhelmingly negative reception, regardless of how it's phrased, it's probably because your work was bad. It is better to have that much feedback than to have nothing.
Maybe you don't "learn" anything in the sense of knowing the exact details of what you did wrong, but it keeps you from getting complacent. It encourages you to look back with a more critical eye, rather than saying "Welp, I guess that was good enough" and moving on.
@Glam_Vrock 'Dude', there is, in fact, such a thing as trolling online. Some people enjoy being mean, and people attempting something creative are vulnerable when starting out. If 'critics' cant state what they dont like, they're just trolls. Not constructive, period. Also? Trolls dont have to actually interact with something to dump overwhelmingly and hamfistedly negative reviews. Lots of people 'hate' a band without actually listening to their albums. They are full of bullpoo, since they dont know if they hate that band, they just hate some songs they heard on the radio. Same with old white people and hip hop.
I'm not sure why you care about complacency. If you are satisfied with your work, thats fine. This isnt a problem. You arent Shakespear, you probably arent going to be if you have time to make BG mods. This is about fun at its heart. Sharing your work is considerate, and adjusting things for others is fine, but you seem to be without perspective here.
Its nice if lots of people enjoy your mod, but I dont think a modder should make mods they will never use/actively dislike.
@Glam_Vrock 'Dude', there is, in fact, such a thing as trolling online. Some people enjoy being mean, and people attempting something creative are vulnerable when starting out. If 'critics' cant state what they dont like, they're just trolls. Not constructive, period. Also? Trolls dont have to actually interact with something to dump overwhelmingly and hamfistedly negative reviews. Lots of people 'hate' a band without actually listening to their albums. They are full of bullpoo, since they dont know if they hate that band, they just hate some songs they heard on the radio. Same with old white people and hip hop.
It's pretty arrogant to assume that anyone who dislikes your mod without saying why didn't actually play it. Yeah, you don't owe them your work, but they don't owe you a dissertation on why it sucked either. Take what you can get.
Because it's the death of improvement? I mean, I am approaching this with the mindset that people want to be good at what they're doing. If you just want to enjoy yourself, fine. Do whatever you want. None of this matters.
RE: Tolkien, it's totally valid to not like his writing. I recognize that it's very stylized, and there's a lot of room for criticism. It's totally valid to prefer other things, even if they're of the cheap knock off variety. You can have a discussion about the relative merits of different works of literature without saying that someone has bad taste for preferring something less celebrated.
@booinyoureyes: Bruh, no Tolkien would mean no Baldur's Gate. Like his writing or not, but there would be no medieval fantasy as we know it today without him.
In DA:O you are that one guy who was at the right time at the right place (or rather at the wrong time at the wrong place) and then get to fight an ominous and characterless big enemy. In Baldur's Gate, you are just some kid who suddenly finds out that it's part of this huge ass prophecy, you get personally hunted by everyone and then become the center of it. Not to mention the ingenious way the main quest in Shadows of Amn is set up: Your protagonist gets motivations to go on that are above adventure, fame, riches and power. You have to save the closest thing you ever had to a family and get revenge on the guy who captured and tortured you and your friends. There is a reason why I played through the BG series over 30 times by now whilst I played Dragon Age only once.
@Buttercheese you nailed it! That was a post after my own heart. This is exactly what I love about BG2 compared to other games. I once wrote a longwinded post on some thread here saying that this was a requirement for me to truly enjoy any future Infinity Engine style rpgs.
@booinyoureyes: Bruh, no Tolkien would means no Baldur's Gate. Like his writing or not, but there would be no medieval fantasy as we know it today without him.
True enough. I totally acknowledge that and appreciate it.
Still long-winded! I don't care about your river, bro! Plus all your characters are archetypes! What's up with that??? (I know perhaps he helped build those archetypes, but they have been used so much since that it does not matter)
I know he was influential, but I feel like the work does not age well. It came first and it helped invent a new genre... but subsequent works have surpassed it.
When I read I am in search of entertainment and maybe a little education. Many works inspired by Tolkien are now better.
I know the Ford Model T was the first of its kind, but in 2014 I'd still drive a Mustang.
@ Where did I say 'be a tool and assume all negative feedback is crap'?? I said it is the job of the community to help decide the validity of a 'review'. However, trolls. You have no real guarantee that ANY reviews are valid on the internet, but as anyone knows, this is a risk when putting things out there.
You cant really believe there are objective standards for most aspects of NPC mods?? Other than grammar, spelling, no plotholes and the other things editing should catch, everything is personal preference. Subjective! They arent writing great works of art, just a mod. Keep some perspective.
Yeeaahh... lots of people argue that mods should disregard their own preference. For example, people criticize mods for making overpowered or domineering of the plot in an unneccesarily aggressive manner. Mod makers dont owe you anything. Seriously. Its very considerate of them to offer their mods to others, and incredibly considerate of them if they take input from others. Offering rude criticism to someone who is being unneccesarily accomodating out of goodness is the height of asshattery.
Want your actually valid criticism to be taken constructively? Offer feedback about what you liked, and thank them for their consideration, then offer some suggestions. IE be a grown up.
@ Where did I say 'be a tool and assume all negative feedback is crap'??
Well I don't know. You're the one saying anyone who hates your mod and doesn't say why is "just trolling." If you're not saying they should be dismissed, what was your point?
You cant really believe there are objective standards for most aspects of NPC mods?? Other than grammar, spelling, no plotholes and the other things editing should catch, everything is personal preference. Subjective! They arent writing great works of art, just a mod. Keep some perspective.
So what is it about NPC mods that makes them distinct from other forms of writing? Why do they exist in their own little bubble?
Writing is writing. There is good writing and bad writing. NPC mods are not exempt.
And I don't see where I'm losing perspective here. I'm well aware that some people are just in this to have fun, and again, none of this applies to them. Write whatever you want, code it however you want, ignore all criticism because it doesn't matter.
Yeeaahh... lots of people argue that mods should disregard their own preference. For example, people criticize mods for making overpowered or domineering of the plot in an unneccesarily aggressive manner.
Why do you assume people who criticise overpoweredness are disregarding the author's preferences? Did they mean to make it overpowered? How am I supposed to know that?
Seriously. Its very considerate of them to offer their mods to others, and incredibly considerate of them if they take input from others.
"Taking input" means one of two things. It can mean you're applying criticism, which isn't being considerate; it's something you need to do if you want to improve.
Or it can mean ignoring what you want and writing just to please other people. That's not being considerate either. That's being a doormat.
Want your actually valid criticism to be taken constructively? Offer feedback about what you liked, and thank them for their consideration, then offer some suggestions. IE be a grown up.
Valid criticism? What's that? It's all personal preference, isn't it? Can't be any such thing as valid criticism, then.
This isn't about the critics anyway. This is about the artist. Yes, it's obviously better when a critic goes into detail about what didn't work for them, but the point is, you're not always going to get that, and you have to learn to make the most of any feedback.
@DreadKhan and @Glam_Vrock you have both made your points exceedingly clear. If you truly wish to continue your debate though, I reckon we'd all appreciate if you switched to Private Messages.
I ain't a mod so you can do what you'd like, and in fact I think you both have excellent points, but you're derailing the thread. Actually everyone's derailing at the moment, we should get this train back on its tracks.
I'm often disappointed by 1Day NPCs. It's not because they were made in a day, but because the ideas are actually kinda cool but aren't given enough time or development.
One, most interestingly, is a soldier discharged because of an arm injury, so he became a custodian for the Cowled Wizards. He is a Fighter Dualed Mage, but plays more like a crossbow using wizard. Nothing wrong there.
The biggest problem is the lack of development, and the fact that he's a lvl 3/4 Fighter/Mage dual in SoA.
If he were a little higher, say 6 or 7/8, I might bring him along despite his silence. In short, excellent content, but please, please... develop the OneDayNPCs! They're too interesting to just leave as is!
I mean kudos for being able to do all of that in under 15K minutes, but closing avenues that are so far yet so close...
It is amazing to me that anyone can do any NPC mod in such a short time though. Some really talented people out there. I wonder if one of those became popular enough, if the author might consider adding more content at some point. Perhaps if their fan base let them know how much they enjoyed the NPC.
@Ravenslight ~ Any NPC mod that's done well will be fun to have along, whether there's mature content or you make a lunatic, or a stoic bodyguard type, or....
My two cents (or your money back) is first and foremost, give your NPC a compelling story. My favorite NPC in the series is Valygar. He doesn't say much. When he does, he doesn't talk fast. But you know what he's about: he hates mages. He's a loner, doesn't like the city. He fights hard.
When he tells the story about ...
**SPOILERS!! how he had to slaughter his parents when they became undead, it's insane. But he kind of shrugs it off saying, I must sound like a mewling child, let's go on. END SPOILERS!!**
... it gets me every time. Talk about a messed up childhood. He just makes sense as a character. He's suspicious of the others, but bonds with PC. He's a good & loyal fighter. But he's damaged goods, exactly the kind of societal reject who would join up with a Bhaalspawn on a suicide mission.
'Go forth Khalid! Defend the mages!' 'Better part of valor, better part of valor' *Runs off*
Bravely bold Sir Khalid Rode forth from the Friendly Arm. He was not afraid to die, Oh brave Sir Khalid. He was not at all afraid To be killed in nasty ways. Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Khalid.
What is a problem with mature content isn't necessarily porn, but tact. See, dealing with issues like rape or suicide can be big and shocking... but how much do you know about them? How sensitively will you tackle the issue?
Often, those who experience such things, don't often want to tell fantasy stories about the event, and even then, there's a very real, and in this case, justified, acceptable and understandable bias in one direction or another.
Just... tread carefully when dealing with touchy subjects. Even posting this makes me feel uneasy, TBH.
About suicide: One of the very very first encounters you can have in vanilla BG1 right after you leave Candlekeep is a guy who wants to kill himself. You can tell him to jump, tell him not to or tell him you don't care. (Either way, he won't jump off the cliff because he is one of those guys who only does it for the attention.) He stands in the middle of the west end of the area Gorion dies in (careful, there are bears around).
Also, about BG2:EE:
In ToB, Hexxat gets the possibility to turn back human but she would die immediately because she is so old. So basically commit suicide or stay a vampire.
So yeah, don't know, but dealing with suicide in BG would be nothing new. Rape on the other hand ... nah man, better not. Though it is hinted at in vanilla, that quite a few characters have been the victims of rape, if I recall correctly. And sleeping with the lust slaves in Ust Natha counts as rape for me, too
But yeah, better not. And if a modder really has to put this in their mod, they better put a giant ass warning sign on it.
In my humble opinion (not trying to be self righteous), I see absolutely no reason to have rape in ANY game or form of social media - even a mod. Granted, people have the freedom to do what they wish in regards to mods, but it still doesn't make it right. There are some things you just don't mess with. It would never be acceptable to use the Holocaust in such a manner and it's been 60+ years. Well even as I type this, there is an ongoing holocaust against women, particularly in the developing world.
Generally I would agree with @Stormvessel. That said, if it were approached in a different way it could be a great way to raise awareness and make it less of a taboo to talk about and deal with. However, this mod is FAR from being that. Infact it's so poorly handled it makes me a little sick inside.
What makes an NPC awesome, in my mind, is that the players have a strong emotional connection to them: they love them or hate them, either way they have a vested interest in who they are and what they do.
So, I think what "makes an NPC awesome" is about the way they react to or act to cause a reaction from the protagonists.
NPCs who avoid contact with the PCs rarely catch on: they really need to get all up in the PC's business in order to get enough traction to become awesome. So step one for me is always finding reasons for the NPCs to initiate conversations and conflicts and to have some kind of opinion about the PCs, just to get them to where maybe some magic could happen. The opinion part seems like a good jump-starter, too; our group really loves NPCs who feel strongly about their PCs...or at the very least, they pay more attention to them, which is almost as good.
Sometimes it can be extremely difficult to remain neutral when talking about what some people choose to include in their mods. The subject of rape being one I personally have a lot of difficulty with. I would hope that if such content was included, the author would be sensitive enough to include a strong warning about what it contained so that I would know that it was a mod I would defiantly not want to play.
If used as a reference to something that happened in the past to an NPC, it can be a strong emotional hook. As it was for me with Viconia. I never liked the character much until I understood some of the things she had endured. I have always had a soft spot for her since.
In the Dragon Age: Origins City Elf origin, the subject certainly provides a powerful emotional impact, and I thought it was handled well in the end.
To me these situations are different then if we are talking about content where the NPC or PC is actively engaging in such activities. I would personally find such content extremely distasteful.
Comments
Not being open to any criticism is, as I said before, a great way to not improve! Its up to the community to help a creator discern the valid from trolling... same as any art. Shutting down all criticism is excessive.
It should be possible to state what aspects of a mod without outrightly naming it.
Art fitting in is good... I support mods being as seamless as possible. Most mods people complain about (hey! This free content isnt good enough!) have a tendency to be jarringly out of chatacter for the game or universe.
As for vile hate, the opposite is equally as useful/useless.
Saying something is good with little explanation why only gets your ego explosive.
As I said before, you need to know WHAT you did right or wrong to really be able to grow and adapt, and no, making revisions is NOT bad, it shows humble willingness to grow.
I'll give the positive example here:
I like this character.
That tells very little.
I found the character synergizes well with the party and is well aligned.
Ok... I didn't learn much, other than that I might be good at character dynamics... but what about next character?
I liked the way she had an interesting dialogue with my party. She never seemed to speak up too much but spoke enough that I never felt like she was invisible. Unfortunately, she kept talking about her one subject just a BIT too much, as though she were obsessive. Seemed a bit offputting. That and the stat requirements for romance really limited my character choices.
This is interesting! It's not a backhanded compliment or snide, but it offers insight to both the patron's likes and dislikes. Also, the stat thing is something even some good mods need to keep in mind. Seriously!
I could reverse this for the negative stuff, but my point still stands. I hope.
Maybe you don't "learn" anything in the sense of knowing the exact details of what you did wrong, but it keeps you from getting complacent. It encourages you to look back with a more critical eye, rather than saying "Welp, I guess that was good enough" and moving on.
Otherwise if people just say nothing, one will likely just take a shot in the dark as to what to change.
They think their writing is too fast paced? Well now they've slowed down to a purple prose pace!
That is the fate of vagueness.
That said, Hugboxes are the worst thing for anyone ever. They're just toxic.
I'm not sure why you care about complacency. If you are satisfied with your work, thats fine. This isnt a problem. You arent Shakespear, you probably arent going to be if you have time to make BG mods. This is about fun at its heart. Sharing your work is considerate, and adjusting things for others is fine, but you seem to be without perspective here.
Its nice if lots of people enjoy your mod, but I dont think a modder should make mods they will never use/actively dislike.
This.
*runs away quickly*
Bruh, no Tolkien would mean no Baldur's Gate.
Like his writing or not, but there would be no medieval fantasy as we know it today without him.
Still long-winded! I don't care about your river, bro! Plus all your characters are archetypes! What's up with that??? (I know perhaps he helped build those archetypes, but they have been used so much since that it does not matter)
I know he was influential, but I feel like the work does not age well. It came first and it helped invent a new genre... but subsequent works have surpassed it.
When I read I am in search of entertainment and maybe a little education. Many works inspired by Tolkien are now better.
I know the Ford Model T was the first of its kind, but in 2014 I'd still drive a Mustang.
I think you just made me realized how having different opinions, that are both based on logic, works 8I
You cant really believe there are objective standards for most aspects of NPC mods?? Other than grammar, spelling, no plotholes and the other things editing should catch, everything is personal preference. Subjective! They arent writing great works of art, just a mod. Keep some perspective.
Yeeaahh... lots of people argue that mods should disregard their own preference. For example, people criticize mods for making overpowered or domineering of the plot in an unneccesarily aggressive manner. Mod makers dont owe you anything. Seriously. Its very considerate of them to offer their mods to others, and incredibly considerate of them if they take input from others. Offering rude criticism to someone who is being unneccesarily accomodating out of goodness is the height of asshattery.
Want your actually valid criticism to be taken constructively? Offer feedback about what you liked, and thank them for their consideration, then offer some suggestions. IE be a grown up.
Writing is writing. There is good writing and bad writing. NPC mods are not exempt.
And I don't see where I'm losing perspective here. I'm well aware that some people are just in this to have fun, and again, none of this applies to them. Write whatever you want, code it however you want, ignore all criticism because it doesn't matter. Why do you assume people who criticise overpoweredness are disregarding the author's preferences? Did they mean to make it overpowered? How am I supposed to know that? Again, nor does anyone owe the mod maker anything. "Taking input" means one of two things. It can mean you're applying criticism, which isn't being considerate; it's something you need to do if you want to improve.
Or it can mean ignoring what you want and writing just to please other people. That's not being considerate either. That's being a doormat. Valid criticism? What's that? It's all personal preference, isn't it? Can't be any such thing as valid criticism, then.
This isn't about the critics anyway. This is about the artist. Yes, it's obviously better when a critic goes into detail about what didn't work for them, but the point is, you're not always going to get that, and you have to learn to make the most of any feedback.
I ain't a mod so you can do what you'd like, and in fact I think you both have excellent points, but you're derailing the thread. Actually everyone's derailing at the moment, we should get this train back on its tracks.
[/backseat_moderating]
I'm often disappointed by 1Day NPCs. It's not because they were made in a day, but because the ideas are actually kinda cool but aren't given enough time or development.
One, most interestingly, is a soldier discharged because of an arm injury, so he became a custodian for the Cowled Wizards. He is a Fighter Dualed Mage, but plays more like a crossbow using wizard. Nothing wrong there.
The biggest problem is the lack of development, and the fact that he's a lvl 3/4 Fighter/Mage dual in SoA.
If he were a little higher, say 6 or 7/8, I might bring him along despite his silence. In short, excellent content, but please, please... develop the OneDayNPCs! They're too interesting to just leave as is!
I mean kudos for being able to do all of that in under 15K minutes, but closing avenues that are so far yet so close...
My two cents (or your money back) is first and foremost, give your NPC a compelling story. My favorite NPC in the series is Valygar. He doesn't say much. When he does, he doesn't talk fast. But you know what he's about: he hates mages. He's a loner, doesn't like the city. He fights hard.
When he tells the story about ...
**SPOILERS!! how he had to slaughter his parents when they became undead, it's insane. But he kind of shrugs it off saying, I must sound like a mewling child, let's go on. END SPOILERS!!**
... it gets me every time. Talk about a messed up childhood. He just makes sense as a character. He's suspicious of the others, but bonds with PC. He's a good & loyal fighter. But he's damaged goods, exactly the kind of societal reject who would join up with a Bhaalspawn on a suicide mission.
I can't wait to see what you all release.
Edit: spoiler tags didn't work, added *ahem* manual ones
Bravely bold Sir Khalid
Rode forth from the Friendly Arm.
He was not afraid to die,
Oh brave Sir Khalid.
He was not at all afraid
To be killed in nasty ways.
Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Khalid.
Again, I'll show myself out.
Often, those who experience such things, don't often want to tell fantasy stories about the event, and even then, there's a very real, and in this case, justified, acceptable and understandable bias in one direction or another.
Just... tread carefully when dealing with touchy subjects. Even posting this makes me feel uneasy, TBH.
Also, about BG2:EE:
So yeah, don't know, but dealing with suicide in BG would be nothing new.
Rape on the other hand ... nah man, better not. Though it is hinted at in vanilla, that quite a few characters have been the victims of rape, if I recall correctly. And sleeping with the lust slaves in Ust Natha counts as rape for me, too
But yeah, better not. And if a modder really has to put this in their mod, they better put a giant ass warning sign on it.
Leave rape alone.
http://www.story-games.com/forums/discussion/14647/what-does-it-take-to-make-an-npc-awesome/p1
I'd like to quote the things I've liked the most:
What makes an NPC awesome, in my mind, is that the players have a strong emotional connection to them: they love them or hate them, either way they have a vested interest in who they are and what they do.
So, I think what "makes an NPC awesome" is about the way they react to or act to cause a reaction from the protagonists.
NPCs who avoid contact with the PCs rarely catch on: they really need to get all up in the PC's business in order to get enough traction to become awesome. So step one for me is always finding reasons for the NPCs to initiate conversations and conflicts and to have some kind of opinion about the PCs, just to get them to where maybe some magic could happen. The opinion part seems like a good jump-starter, too; our group really loves NPCs who feel strongly about their PCs...or at the very least, they pay more attention to them, which is almost as good.
If used as a reference to something that happened in the past to an NPC, it can be a strong emotional hook. As it was for me with Viconia. I never liked the character much until I understood some of the things she had endured. I have always had a soft spot for her since.
In the Dragon Age: Origins City Elf origin, the subject certainly provides a powerful emotional impact, and I thought it was handled well in the end.
To me these situations are different then if we are talking about content where the NPC or PC is actively engaging in such activities. I would personally find such content extremely distasteful.