I must add that the media and their Chicken Little 'the sky is falling' reporting is also part of the problem. There are only so many times you can cry wolf until people don't believe you anymore...
This exact same argument was used during the Bush Administration. Then the sky fell. About 3 or 4 times actually. The biggest terrorist attack in US history. The biggest foreign policy blunder in 50 years. An American city left to drown for a week. And the biggest financial meltdown in 75 years. ALL of them in one way or another predicted well in advance by people "crying wolf".
THE main reason liberals are shouting like Chicken Little is because we saw this movie less than 10 years ago, and were dismissed in the exact same way.
As for Sweden and not taking Trump's "bait", we apparently are living in "Catch-22", and that novel is maddening enough to read, much less exist in. American conservative media has a vested interest in portraying Western Europe and especially Scandinavia as some kind of Socialist dsytopian hellhole, and the reason is obvious: their liberal policies are widely popular with the populations, and their societies have both longer life-spans and less stress. Again, Trump and his surrogates are inventing FAKE terrorist attacks, and a sizeable portion of the population (and apparently this forum) seem to think that is perfectly ok and acceptable. The fact that conservative media has moved the goalposts from Trump talking about a fake terrorist attack to pretending he was talking about fairly innocuous crime statistics doesn't prove the media took the bait. It simply proves how cynical conservative media is and how much contempt they have for their audience knowing they can be misled so easily.
BTW, the Swedish murder rate has fallen over the last 20 years. The country started allowing more refugees 15 years ago.
Edit: Source: United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime
This is unsurprising because immigrants and refugees are, in most developed countries, less likely to commit crimes than nationals. One is after all rather less likely to commit a crime if, in addition to regular statutory penalties, one risks being kicked out of the country and being separated from family/ property etc. Anyone who doubts this assertion should just take a look through a recent criminology textbook or two, there's plenty of evidence to back it up.
BTW, the Swedish murder rate has fallen over the last 20 years. The country started allowing more refugees 15 years ago.
Edit: Source: United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime
This is unsurprising because immigrants and refugees are, in most developed countries, less likely to commit crimes than nationals. One is after all rather less likely to commit a crime if, in addition to regular statutory penalties, one risks being kicked out of the country and being separated from family/ property etc. Anyone who doubts this assertion should just take a look through a recent criminology textbook or two, there's plenty of evidence to back it up.
In addition to this, though Obama certainly deported alot of people, the false equivalence between him and Trump is bunk. Under Obama, ICE was targeting people who committed serious crimes who had been in the country less than 14 days within 100 miles of the southern border. It was a matter of resources. Trump's deportation strategy is nationwide and blanket. And when, may I ask, will the employers who employ these undocumented workers (including, in the past, Trump himself) be punished?? The answer to that question is of course never, even though it is very easy to argue they are even MORE at fault for the problem (to the extent one exists at all, which it doesn't, because illegal immigration has been at a net negative for YEARS). But this is absolutely the promise he will keep. NOTHING endeared Trump to his base voters as much as when he came down that escalator and called Mexicans rapists. Well, except implying the first African-American President wasn't born in the United States. They probably liked that one just as much.
I must add that the media and their Chicken Little 'the sky is falling' reporting is also part of the problem. There are only so many times you can cry wolf until people don't believe you anymore...
This exact same argument was used during the Bush Administration. Then the sky fell. About 3 or 4 times actually. The biggest terrorist attack in US history. The biggest foreign policy blunder in 50 years. An American city left to drown for a week. And the biggest financial meltdown in 75 years. ALL of them in one way or another predicted well in advance by people "crying wolf".
THE main reason liberals are shouting like Chicken Little is because we saw this movie less than 10 years ago, and were dismissed in the exact same way.
It's funny the liberals didn't predict Benghazi and the Arab Spring, the horrible roll-out problems of Obamacare, the rise of ISIS, Russia's takeover of the Crimea, or the bungled Ebola outbreak response. Apparently the liberal diviners can only 'see' with their right eyes.
Nor did conservatives predict the economic recovery under Obama, the reduction in the deficit by 2/3, the reduction in the unemployment rate, the longest uninterrupted period of job growth in American history, the dropping immigration rates, or the international polls showing that Obama is the most respected world leader on the planet. In fact, they predicted the exact opposite.
It's funny the liberals didn't predict Benghazi and the Arab Spring, the horrible roll-out problems of Obamacare, the rise of ISIS, Russia's takeover of the Crimea, or the bungled Ebola outbreak response. Apparently the liberal diviners can only 'see' with their right eyes.
Here's the two things you could reasonably lay on obama. Benghazi happened, yes more could have been done. Obamacare rollout was rocky but fixed, not so surprising once you realize the GOP was determined to see it fail just to make Obama look bad in anyway possible.
The other things are world affairs. There's only so much you can do to affect other countries. So, the Arab spring was a good thing wasn't it? Nothing we can do about the rise of ISIS particularly since the main thing we do is bomb and kill people there, we don't actually influence their culture. It's like Bush's mission accomplished thing, OK you killed a bunch of people, now they are just going to be happy and have a Western culture? It does not work that way. This is the same approach that DT is pushing by the way - uh uh kill the bad guys. The Russian take over of Crimea? Russia is going to Russia. What exactly should the President do while the Senate and House are Republican? The Ebola response how's that a liberals fault exactly?
The rise of Isis was a direct result of going into Iraq in the first place. Not sure how we're supposed to prevent the Arab Spring without omnipotent abilities. America isn't the magic policeman of the world. The Ebola outbreak response was hindered because Republicans refused to fund it for months, as they did with Zika. And I believe one person died, maybe 3?? You can hang the Obamacare rollout on them for sure. But comparing any of these run of the mill, every Administration hiccups to the unmitigated disasters of 9/11, Iraq, Katrina, and the financial meltdown?? This seems a bit like comparing a random shortstop bobbling a groundball on opening day to Bill Buckner letting the ball go through his legs in the '86 World Series.
I must add that the media and their Chicken Little 'the sky is falling' reporting is also part of the problem. There are only so many times you can cry wolf until people don't believe you anymore...
This exact same argument was used during the Bush Administration. Then the sky fell. About 3 or 4 times actually. The biggest terrorist attack in US history. The biggest foreign policy blunder in 50 years. An American city left to drown for a week. And the biggest financial meltdown in 75 years. ALL of them in one way or another predicted well in advance by people "crying wolf".
THE main reason liberals are shouting like Chicken Little is because we saw this movie less than 10 years ago, and were dismissed in the exact same way.
It's funny the liberals didn't predict Benghazi and the Arab Spring, the horrible roll-out problems of Obamacare, the rise of ISIS, Russia's takeover of the Crimea, or the bungled Ebola outbreak response. Apparently the liberal diviners can only 'see' with their right eyes.
These are all National Disasters:
Biggest US attack in history New Orleans and Katerina Stock Market crash
vs
What you listed are all International Incidents that National Policy makers have no or very minimal control over:
Benghazi, a terrorist attack in a foreign country, not home soil where 4 American's were killed, as opposed to 2,977.
Arab Spring, has nothing to do with American Politics, and depending on the nation, was considered positive at the time.
The rise of ISIS (Caused by Bush's petty war)
Russia's takeover of Crimea (and invasion of Ukraine. Please tell me what Obama should have done, that he didn't do. Go to war with Russia?)
Ebola outbreak: If you are referring to just the incident in the States, it was 1 man who lied to get on a plane, who started a small outbreak (2 nurses) at one hospital, where both nurses survived the disease. If you are talking about the entire outbreak, once again, international problem.
The only thing you listed that can be even considered a disaster is the Obamacare rollout but that has no comparison to 3 of the 4 things listed by jj, and in my opinion, a bipartisan failure due to a republican house fighting it.
If you really want to see a bungled rollout that can be considered a disaster, check out Canada's Phoenix Pay System where federal employees haven't been paid in months. That is a disaster, not a website crashing because millions of people were trying to access healthcare that they previously didn't have.
I was just pointing out some of the things that Obama would have been able to possibly prevent if he had perfect foresight. It's always easy to say what a person should have done after the fact. Other than the Irag War I really don't think Bush could have prevented any of the other events you mentioned. Katrina was a natural disaster. The feds could have handled it better but so could the State of Louisiana and the city as well. 9/11, really? I guess if Bush had deported Muslims a'la Trump that could've been avoided. The housing market crash? There was no will to fix that at all until it was too late. Both parties and 2 administrations can share blame in that debacle.
@Balrog99: True that. In retrospect, I think we could have (and should have) solved those problems in Ukraine and Syria with military force. But I didn't believe that at the time, and from what I can tell, most folks at home agreed with me.
When I first heard about Russia's actions in Ukraine and the civil war in Syria, I thought it was best to stay out of them, even though I thought Putin and Assad were doing terrible things (to say the least). I thought we'd just end up making things worse.
But in hindsight, I think we could have saved a lot of lives if we had intervened in either or both. Especially in Syria, considering the war isn't even over and the death count is already more than twice that of the Iraq War. Even if things had gone as badly as the war in Iraq, American intervention would have saved lives--the current situation is just so much worse.
But I didn't think it would have gotten that bad, and even in retrospect, I don't think it was politically possible for Obama to have done anything given the circumstances. He did request Congressional permission to intervene in Syria, but Congress said no. And the American people, according to polls, agreed that we should have stayed out of Syria. There was a consensus.
I think Putin and Assad knew that. They knew that the U.S. was not going to come swooping in; they knew we were sick of fighting overseas.
American intervention isn't always bad. Even Iraqis, surprisingly enough, think that the invasion was worth it to get rid of Saddam, according to polls. It was the lengthy occupation that they objected to, not the invasion and the ousting of Saddam. But the Iraq War crushed the reputation of American interventionism at home, and it was fairly clear to everyone--including America's enemies--that we were not up for another fight.
Perfect foresight would allow one to see the outcomes of all possibilities. Having that would have allowed Obama to formulate the ultimate riposte to Russian aggression. This is why diviners should be the most powerful wizards in the realms. And they can be elves!
Sadly, diviners in the real world don't exist and no one has perfect foresight.
You can't predict absolutely everything that will happen in a new president's term. However, I'm a big fan of learning from history and recognizing its patterns. And the way Trump and his administration had behaved so far follows a very troubling pattern.
Throw an entire group of people under the bus to blame for America's problems? Check.
Start attacking the press and feed propagandist media instead? Check.
Fill your cabinet with a ton of incompetent/corrupt individuals, including a literal nazi?
Check. Check. Double-check.
There have been warning signs and flashing arrows for months pointing that this guy in charge is an AWFUL idea, and whether you're conservative or liberal, you should listen. History repeats, and those who fail to learn from it will suffer.
More released emails confirm that Scott Pruitt, Trump's new head for the Environmental Protection Agency, has been working with corporations to help them avoid environmental regulations.
If you want an agency to succeed, you make sure its leader is committed to its purpose. If you want an agency to fail, you make sure the leader is opposed to its very purpose.
... And the way Trump and his administration had behaved so far follows a very troubling pattern.
Throw an entire group of people under the bus to blame for America's problems? Check.
Start attacking the press and feed propagandist media instead? Check.
Fill your cabinet with a ton of incompetent/corrupt individuals, including a literal nazi?
Check. Check. Double-check.
There have been warning signs and flashing arrows for months pointing that this guy in charge is an AWFUL idea, and whether you're conservative or liberal, you should listen. History repeats, and those who fail to learn from it will suffer.
Crazy that none of those positions are even disputed. "Obama is going to take ur guns, and a mooslim, and not born in Murica!" Those things were all fake, a large portion of people denied them and rightfully so.
But those things mentioned about Trump are not some crazy conspiracy theory. They are real life straight from the horse's wherever.
More released emails confirm that Scott Pruitt, Trump's new head for the Environmental Protection Agency, has been working with corporations to help them avoid environmental regulations.
If you want an agency to succeed, you make sure its leader is committed to its purpose. If you want an agency to fail, you make sure the leader is opposed to its very purpose.
Conservatives want to take the country back to those halcyon days when we couldn't see our city skylines and rivers occasionally caught fire. So they need to undo the damage done by that well known Socialist, Richard Nixon.
So, the first move on education policy by Trump, DeVos and Sessions is....to take away transgender protection. Look, you can feel however you want about this issue, but these are kids who are already going through the toughest situation imaginable. They're going to have a rough time (at best) simply because many of their peers are going to treat them like garbage. But those are kids. Apparently it's also too much to ask for grown adults, regardless of their religious beliefs, to stick up for the most marginalized of children. Frankly, it's sick, disgusting and yes, downright evil. If you are making THIS your #1 priority, you're a grade below pond scum.
The simple solution to public school restroom problems already exists: convert all restrooms so that they contain individual stalls with doors that lock and walls which stretch from floor to ceiling then label them all "unisex" or "all inclusive" or something of that sort. This means there would no longer be a "men's room" and a "women's room", only "restrooms" which everyone may use. These conversions wouldn't even cost a significant amount of money and could be completed in the course of one summer, making them ready for classes this coming fall.
Truthfully, this is a non-issue. When I head into a restroom I am not interested in who else might be in there or what pieces and parts they may have. I visit that room to take care of business then leave. It isn't a town hall where you catch up on gossip with your neighbors, coworkers, or fellow students. Well, at least to me it isn't.
The simple solution to public school restroom problems already exists: convert all restrooms so that they contain individual stalls with doors that lock and walls which stretch from floor to ceiling then label them all "unisex" or "all inclusive" or something of that sort. This means there would no longer be a "men's room" and a "women's room", only "restrooms" which everyone may use. These conversions wouldn't even cost a significant amount of money and could be completed in the course of one summer, making them ready for classes this coming fall.
Truthfully, this is a non-issue. When I head into a restroom I am not interested in who else might be in there or what pieces and parts they may have. I visit that room to take care of business then leave. It isn't a town hall where you catch up on gossip with your neighbors, coworkers, or fellow students. Well, at least to me it isn't.
This assumes the right making it an issue is about anything other than causing fear of the other, which would be the wrong assumption. It's weaponized fear-mongering.
Corporations get this, by the way. Every major sports organization has told North Carolina they are persona non grata til they ditch their bathroom bill.
I don't get the big deal about this. Male parts, use men's room. Female parts, use women's room. Unless I'm mistaken, the only major differences are men's rooms have urinals and women's rooms have some utilities that make it easier to put on make-up and such (some have chairs in them too for some reason). Women don't use urinals and most men wouldn't powder their noses. I must be missing something here...
I don't get the big deal about this. Male parts, use men's room. Female parts, use women's room. Unless I'm mistaken, the only major differences are men's rooms have urinals and women's rooms have some utilities that make it easier to put on make-up and such (some have chairs in them too for some reason). Women don't use urinals and most men wouldn't powder their noses. I must be missing something here...
I think the issue for some is they feel like the other but they have the wrong parts. For example, a guy feels he should be a woman but has male parts. He dresses as a girl, acts like a girl all the time, feels like a girl, is a girl. Then the Republicans are treading on his freedom man and he has to drop his identity and go use the men's bathroom. So this woman is supposed to go use the men's bathroom, surely all the manly dudes in there will be a tolerant and understanding bunch when it comes to respecting this woman's identity - nah he'd definitely be ridiculed beat up you name it wouldn't he?
Anyway, that's what I think some of the issues are for people.
You also have the issue of some women just not being in a restroom with strange men, regardless if how they identify. They are in an enclosed space with people who are biologically stronger than them, and have no idea what kind of intentions they might have. This is certainly not the case for eveyone, but it is worth considering.
I don't get the big deal about this. Male parts, use men's room. Female parts, use women's room. Unless I'm mistaken, the only major differences are men's rooms have urinals and women's rooms have some utilities that make it easier to put on make-up and such (some have chairs in them too for some reason). Women don't use urinals and most men wouldn't powder their noses. I must be missing something here...
I think the issue for some is they feel like the other but they have the wrong parts. For example, a guy feels he should be a woman but has male parts. He dresses as a girl, acts like a girl all the time, feels like a girl, is a girl. Then the Republicans are treading on his freedom man and he has to drop his identity and go use the men's bathroom. So this woman is supposed to go use the men's bathroom, surely all the manly dudes in there will be a tolerant and understanding bunch when it comes to respecting this woman's identity - nah he'd definitely be ridiculed beat up you name it wouldn't he?
Anyway, that's what I think some of the issues are for people.
And in the "didn't think this through" department, they're now forcing people who dress, act and feel like men, often with facial hair and deepening voices from the hormone treatments, to use the ladies' room. I wonder if people like Mike Pence even realize that most transgendered people are heterosexual?
So if you feel like a female but have a penis you wouldn't use a urinal? I think I'd use one just for the utility of it (and not having to wait in line for the ladies room would be a plus too). If I was a female who felt like a male I guess using a stall in the men's room would be ok. I still just don't get the big issue.
Oddly, I get the impression that the main issue for conservatives is the chance of male perverts invading the women's rooms. I honestly don't think many men would do that but I'm sure that a few would. Of course those same men are the ones peeping through keyholes and staring up women's skirts in stairwells anyway...
I'd be more worried about men assaulting women in women's restrooms if such a thing were actually happening. But that fear is based on nothing. It hasn't happened. You can't prevent crimes that aren't being committed.
I'd prefer that the government tackle problems that actually exist.
I don't get the big deal about this. Male parts, use men's room. Female parts, use women's room. Unless I'm mistaken, the only major differences are men's rooms have urinals and women's rooms have some utilities that make it easier to put on make-up and such (some have chairs in them too for some reason). Women don't use urinals and most men wouldn't powder their noses. I must be missing something here...
How do you know if someone has male parts or female parts?
So if you feel like a female but have a penis you wouldn't use a urinal? I think I'd use one just for the utility of it (and not having to wait in line for the ladies room would be a plus too). If I was a female who felt like a male I guess using a stall in the men's room would be ok. I still just don't get the big issue.
Oddly, I get the impression that the main issue for conservatives is the chance of male perverts invading the women's rooms. I honestly don't think many men would do that but I'm sure that a few would. Of course those same men are the ones peeping through keyholes and staring up women's skirts in stairwells anyway...
If there was even a SINGLE example of this happening, then we could begin having the argument. And believe me, if there was any hint of such attack anywhere, it would be mentioned on FOX News on a daily basis and everyone in America would know the perpetrators name. It's actually a wonder they haven't just made one up already. Now that Trump has shown that has no consequences, maybe we can expect our first fake transgender bathroom assault within the month.
And again, the litany of posters saying "what's the big deal??" is precisely the point. It makes no difference what bathrooms these people choose to use. The bill in NC and the removal of the protections from students isn't about protecting anyone. It's about purposefully portraying transgender teens and citizens as dangerous monsters. Ask the gay community how they have been painted in the same way for decades.
In the meantime, Milo Yiannopoulos, who has been given a keynote address at CPAC (which nearly every single Republican candidate for President speaks at every year) now has had multiple videos come to light where he not only defends pedophilia, but seems to actively encourage it. Keep in mind that this man is the crowning hero of the anti-PC/Gamergate movement. He is their Christ figure. Another prediction?? His fans will dismiss it all as a elaborate joke, because hey, it's the internet, and you can't take anything seriously. I mean, really, what kind of special snowflake can't handle differing views on child sex abuse?? The reality?? In no way can his discussions about this be construed as a joke. I'll leave it to any who wants to to actually track the videos down, but dismissing his views on this subject as a joke is just the purest form of crap imaginable.
Looks like that prediction didn't quite come to pass.
What will liberals now do about Bill Maher, though?
Comments
Murder rates per 100,000
United States: 3.9Sweden: 0.9
BTW, the Swedish murder rate has fallen over the last 20 years. The country started allowing more refugees 15 years ago.
Edit: Source: United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime
THE main reason liberals are shouting like Chicken Little is because we saw this movie less than 10 years ago, and were dismissed in the exact same way.
The other things are world affairs. There's only so much you can do to affect other countries. So, the Arab spring was a good thing wasn't it? Nothing we can do about the rise of ISIS particularly since the main thing we do is bomb and kill people there, we don't actually influence their culture. It's like Bush's mission accomplished thing, OK you killed a bunch of people, now they are just going to be happy and have a Western culture? It does not work that way. This is the same approach that DT is pushing by the way - uh uh kill the bad guys. The Russian take over of Crimea? Russia is going to Russia. What exactly should the President do while the Senate and House are Republican? The Ebola response how's that a liberals fault exactly?
Biggest US attack in history
New Orleans and Katerina
Stock Market crash
vs
What you listed are all International Incidents that National Policy makers have no or very minimal control over:
- Benghazi, a terrorist attack in a foreign country, not home soil where 4 American's were killed, as opposed to 2,977.
- Arab Spring, has nothing to do with American Politics, and depending on the nation, was considered positive at the time.
- The rise of ISIS (Caused by Bush's petty war)
- Russia's takeover of Crimea (and invasion of Ukraine. Please tell me what Obama should have done, that he didn't do. Go to war with Russia?)
- Ebola outbreak: If you are referring to just the incident in the States, it was 1 man who lied to get on a plane, who started a small outbreak (2 nurses) at one hospital, where both nurses survived the disease. If you are talking about the entire outbreak, once again, international problem.
The only thing you listed that can be even considered a disaster is the Obamacare rollout but that has no comparison to 3 of the 4 things listed by jj, and in my opinion, a bipartisan failure due to a republican house fighting it.If you really want to see a bungled rollout that can be considered a disaster, check out Canada's Phoenix Pay System where federal employees haven't been paid in months. That is a disaster, not a website crashing because millions of people were trying to access healthcare that they previously didn't have.
When I first heard about Russia's actions in Ukraine and the civil war in Syria, I thought it was best to stay out of them, even though I thought Putin and Assad were doing terrible things (to say the least). I thought we'd just end up making things worse.
But in hindsight, I think we could have saved a lot of lives if we had intervened in either or both. Especially in Syria, considering the war isn't even over and the death count is already more than twice that of the Iraq War. Even if things had gone as badly as the war in Iraq, American intervention would have saved lives--the current situation is just so much worse.
But I didn't think it would have gotten that bad, and even in retrospect, I don't think it was politically possible for Obama to have done anything given the circumstances. He did request Congressional permission to intervene in Syria, but Congress said no. And the American people, according to polls, agreed that we should have stayed out of Syria. There was a consensus.
I think Putin and Assad knew that. They knew that the U.S. was not going to come swooping in; they knew we were sick of fighting overseas.
American intervention isn't always bad. Even Iraqis, surprisingly enough, think that the invasion was worth it to get rid of Saddam, according to polls. It was the lengthy occupation that they objected to, not the invasion and the ousting of Saddam. But the Iraq War crushed the reputation of American interventionism at home, and it was fairly clear to everyone--including America's enemies--that we were not up for another fight.
Putin and Assad took advantage of that.
You can't predict absolutely everything that will happen in a new president's term. However, I'm a big fan of learning from history and recognizing its patterns. And the way Trump and his administration had behaved so far follows a very troubling pattern.
Throw an entire group of people under the bus to blame for America's problems? Check.
Start attacking the press and feed propagandist media instead? Check.
Fill your cabinet with a ton of incompetent/corrupt individuals, including a literal nazi?
Check. Check. Double-check.
There have been warning signs and flashing arrows for months pointing that this guy in charge is an AWFUL idea, and whether you're conservative or liberal, you should listen. History repeats, and those who fail to learn from it will suffer.
If you want an agency to succeed, you make sure its leader is committed to its purpose. If you want an agency to fail, you make sure the leader is opposed to its very purpose.
But those things mentioned about Trump are not some crazy conspiracy theory. They are real life straight from the horse's wherever.
Truthfully, this is a non-issue. When I head into a restroom I am not interested in who else might be in there or what pieces and parts they may have. I visit that room to take care of business then leave. It isn't a town hall where you catch up on gossip with your neighbors, coworkers, or fellow students. Well, at least to me it isn't.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/23/politics/white-house-marijuana-donald-trump-pot/index.html
Corporations get this, by the way. Every major sports organization has told North Carolina they are persona non grata til they ditch their bathroom bill.
Anyway, that's what I think some of the issues are for people.
This is certainly not the case for eveyone, but it is worth considering.
Oddly, I get the impression that the main issue for conservatives is the chance of male perverts invading the women's rooms. I honestly don't think many men would do that but I'm sure that a few would. Of course those same men are the ones peeping through keyholes and staring up women's skirts in stairwells anyway...
I'd prefer that the government tackle problems that actually exist.
And again, the litany of posters saying "what's the big deal??" is precisely the point. It makes no difference what bathrooms these people choose to use. The bill in NC and the removal of the protections from students isn't about protecting anyone. It's about purposefully portraying transgender teens and citizens as dangerous monsters. Ask the gay community how they have been painted in the same way for decades.
What will liberals now do about Bill Maher, though?