What is "they are like nothing" ? Are they like "That, that has no life"?
They are something. They are paid to do a job. To cause chaos and unrest whether it be by the government or private entities. They are paid to break up, with violence, peaceful protests or to start riots. Radicals. Just like the radicals on the right.
Also, if they where nothing, why has Europe been trying to exterminate these cockroaches for decades?
The world doesn't spin only when the American media tells a tale.
- Phoenix New-Times had begun calling Joe Arpaio’s “parade of corpses,” with “endless” numbers of court cases over “needless deaths and injuries in the jails.” Arpaio refused to disclose the number of deaths in his facilities.
-None of this served any purpose other than furthering Arpaio’s attempts to build a brand out of callousness. “Jails are intended to be punishment,” Arpaio said (although jail aren’t intended to be punishment, because most people in them haven’t been convicted of a crime yet), and he joked that the facility was his own personal “concentration camp,” dismissing all concerns as “civil rights crap.”
-Inmates were forced to live without air conditioning in the Arizona heat, which reached well above 110 degrees. (At one point it reached 145 within the tents, causing the inmates’ shoes to melt.) Even the showers provided no relief; they were kept near boiling temperature. Winter was somehow even worse: the tents were unheated, but Arpaio would not permit warm clothing, not even a jacket. A former inmate wrote in the Washington Post that it was “freezing, achingly cold,” and that detainees wrapped their extremities with plastic bags. “I was in so much pain,” he said, that even now he cannot be cold without being reminded of it.
-Arpaio “tortured inmates who were on psychotropic medication by locking them in unbearably hot solitary confinement cells.” Those with physical vulnerabilities were mistreated, too; a paraplegic had his neck broken by guards and a pregnant woman lost her baby after officers left her in her cell instead of taking her to the hospital. It even took a federal court order to ensure “functional and sanitary toilets and sinks, with toilet paper and soap.”
-Marty Atencio was a third-generation military veteran who had served in the Gulf War. He suffered mental problems after the service and was arrested. Officers began to make fun of Atencio’s mental state, and when he refused an order to take his shoes off, they closed in on Atencio and began beating and tasering him. They dragged Atencio’s unconscious body back to his cell, where he was stripped naked and left on the floor. His body was found “covered with bruises, lacerations and puncture marks,” and would never regain consciousness.
-During the more than two decades that Joe Arpaio served as sheriff of Maricopa County, overseeing the jail system, millions of dollars would be paid out in lawsuits over the deaths of inmates. In 1996, Scott Norberg died after being suffocated in one of Arpaio’s “restraint chairs,” after being descended on by “fourteen guards beating, shocking, and suffocating [him].” They were, said an eyewitness inmate, “like a pack of dogs.” After the Sheriff’s Office was accused of discarding evidence in the case, including the deceased’s crushed larynx, his family received an $8 million settlement. In 2015, Felix Torres was pulled over on his bicycle for riding the wrong way up the street, and found to be in possession of drug paraphernalia. While in jail awaiting trial, he was taken to the County Medical Center for severe stomach pain. Though Torres said he had a history of ulcers, doctors decided he had a hernia, and gave him a drug not recommended for people with ulcers. After being returned to jail, Torres, “spent the next few days crying, writhing in pain, and begging guards to help him or take him to the hospital.” Torres began “banging on his cell door and asking for help,” but an officer told him “You’re bullshitting… go to sleep.” On the night he died, Torres asked multiple officers for help, telling them he was dying. “You’re fucking faking it,” one replied. Torres’s family would receive $1 million. (And while it should make no difference, we might bear in mind that at the time of his death, Felix Torres was an innocent man.)
-He also ignored and did no investigating into sexual assaults while grandstanding against immigration which led to things like a 13 yr old being raped repeatedly over a long period of time. A journalistic investigation—one that would eventually win a Pulitzer Prize—revealed that hundreds of reported sex crimes had gone uninvestigated by Arpaio’s office.
-There is ton more stuff on this guy including investigations into rivals and !planning a fake assassination attempt on himself to score political points! Instead of listening to the judge that found him in contempt, Arpaio hired a private investigator to investigate the judge’s wife. There's a lot more. A truly despicable person.
Links and sublinks in the article. And of course Trump will offer him a position in his government.
Antifa never hurt anyone. lol Most people in this forum have probably only heard of them because of Trump. The world has been fighting this disease for at least 2 decades now.
They are mercenaries for hire, plain and simple.
"The wheels on the bus go round and round..."
I never said they never hurt anyone, I said they never KILLED anyone, which is a pretty big distinction.
Once again, under a Republican President, a major American city is flooding and the sitting Administration seems ill-equipped to handle it. The 911 service in Houston has been overloaded, and Trump is spending the morning tweeting about his electoral college win, the border wall, and bragging about how good the people on the ground in Texas are, and how great the rescue efforts are. My guess is that will not in fact turn out to be the case. And who the hell sits around bragging about how good they are handling a disaster in the middle of a disaster??
Yep, it's easily twice as bad, that's precisely what i'm saying. This man believes in the right to murder innocent people for political ends. Maybe i'm wrong here, but what ive heard about Apraio sounds like power abuse, which is also evil, but its not random acts of mass intentional murder like they were involved in.
The fact that this is even in question, is really the epitome of this selective outrage that we see so much on the left. Far from being two wrongs make a right, they don't even see wrong from the left if they are doing anything short of burning puppies. What we know happened for sure:
Set up an escape plot with members on the outside who were arrested with guns and explosives, and whose plot obviously involed using them on guards, which added 15 yrs to his sentance.
He was still given the chance to leave in 1999, and a number of FALN terrorists did leave, but refused because the offer included a renounciation of violence. Obama's had no such requirement.
Witnesses from within the gang pegged him as a bomb making instructor.
A bomb factory along with detonators and illegal firearms were found in his home.
When he was arrested, he was found with a bomb making manual designed for their gang members along with explosives and illegal firearms again.
While I didn't look into all the details of the trial or anything, that sounds like a series of pretty good links.
Correct, wrong choice of words, regardless, he's out now. And the hand was even extended to him during Bill Clinton's term as well despite his attempted break out, so he could have been free much earlier. If you're a communist terrorist, the left got your back. We saw it with the real murderers and we see it with Antifa.
Name one person killed by Antifa.....while we wait for the answer, I'll go get a new titanium battery for my watch. In ten pages of a Google search of "has Anitfa killed anyone??" there isn't a single story (not even a fake one, oddly enough) that provides evidence of this occurring.
Woah there friendo, might wanna re-read my comment. I made a distinction between real murderers and between Antifa. Meaning they are not in the same category, right?
Antifa hasn't murdered in the U.S as far as I know, they just hound all manner of ordinary right wing events smashing kids in the head with bike locks, beating up and pepper spraying women, stabbing animals, and generally causing violence and chaos wherever they go. Every once in a while, in a truly rare event, they end up punching a nazi just as despicable as they are.
Antifa hasn't murdered in the U.S as far as I know, they just hound all manner of ordinary right wing events smashing kids in the head with bike locks, beating up and pepper spraying women, stabbing animals, and generally causing violence and chaos wherever they go. Every once in a while, in a truly rare event, they end up punching a nazi just as despicable as they are.
Their "general violence" has apparently been more like general nuisance because aside from a few biased right wing conspiracy websites that want to set up false equivalence, and a gullible and biased President, no one has ever heard of them.
Pepper spraying women? Ok are they Nazi women coming after them with masks and weapons because pepper spray is a self defense thing.
Stabbing animals? Seems unlikely but a far greater problem is police shooting animals. Look that one up.
Smashing kids with bike locks? Yeah that has to be a single incident you are clutching on to. I'm going to speculate that they don't in fact make a habit of that.
Violence and chaos wherever they go? Don't they go after Nazis and right wing facists? So yeah if that's where they are going it's because it's already there from the facists.
You don't get Antifa without these guys or we'd have heard of them on their own if that was the case so the problem is the Nazis and right winger conspiracy types. Antifa is a reaction to that.
The acceptance and blind eye to facist violence by the government has led them to think they have to take the law into their own hands like Batman. Look back to the lynchings in the South. Government has endorsed right wing violence.
Yep, it's easily twice as bad, that's precisely what i'm saying. This man believes in the right to murder innocent people for political ends. Maybe i'm wrong here, but what ive heard about Apraio sounds like power abuse, which is also evil, but its not random acts of mass intentional murder like they were involved in.
You keep a prisoner locked in a tent at 145 degrees, you are trying to kill them. You deny them warm clothing in the icy winter, you are trying to kill them. If your guards break a prisoner's neck, they--and by extension you--are trying to kill them. When those same guards refuse to take a prisoner who is in severe pain to the hospital, you are trying to kill them.
You're damn right Arpaio abused his power. He abused his power so much that he tortured thousands of prisoners and got away with mass intentional murder. He paid millions of dollars to cover it up. And what was his jail sentence? Six. Months. He won't even serve that, thanks to our ding-dong of a president.
Trying to equate that to the release of a terrorist who's already served 20 years of his 35 year sentence is a false equivalence and complete and utter bullshit.
Why are we even trying to equate a bunch of things are horrible anyway? The amount of blame shifting going on here is astounding. "yeah those guys are pretty bad but look at what this group that may or may not be associated with my/their political did! Its much worse so we should focus on that!" "Nu-uh" "uh-huh". There is a bunch a of crap going on that is despicable and comparing atrocity peens is going to fix none of it. Can we simply address the issues individually without having to compare political parties?
Why are we even trying to equate a bunch of things are horrible anyway? The amount of blame shifting going on here is astounding. "yeah those guys are pretty bad but look at what this group that may or may not be associated with my/their political did! Its much worse so we should focus on that!" "Nu-uh" "uh-huh". There is a bunch a of crap going on that is despicable and comparing atrocity peens is going to fix none of it. Can we simply address the issues individually without having to compare political parties?
Why do we do that? Because people are believe misinformation.
It's the same technique again and again, one kid got a vaccine and later got autism then some liar standing to make money off of a con goes on TV and says "vaccines cause autism!" and many people believe him. The liar could even trot out that one autistic kid and be like - look vaccines equal autism! He doesn't trot out the millions that get vaccines and no autism just one kid. People believe it.
"A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic." - Stalin
People struggle to wrap their heads around large numbers. What's the physical difference between having ten million dollars and having a billion dollars? What would ten thousand comic books look like? How many people do you know that you've interacted with in your whole life compared to how many people are in the world?
Do you care about some kid starving in Afghanistan? What about an old man in the UK? What if you knew the in Afghanistan was named Bill and had blue eyes and blonde hair? Just knowing a bit about that person (should) make a difference compared to hearing "ten thousand people died due to hunger in Afghanistan".
So what does that mean in relation to false equivalence? Again biased media outlets (Fox News and nefarious right wing websites) cherry picks one or two examples out of a large group and they spin around in knots to fit the narrative they want to sell. People that inherently want to believe that do. Then they repeat it to their friends and so on.
Do some research for yourself besides the Daily Stormer or whatever. There's probably a reason these stories are exclusive to a couple of koch brothers or sinclair funded sites. And no it's not a massive conspiracy involving people across the globe.
If there somehow is a hidden antifa thing that's been killing hundreds of people like right wingers have then we'd have heard about it. They are not equal to nazis and racists that have killed literally millions of people.
The spin here is obvious, stating half the facts is a poor defense of terrorists, do it in it's full context if you think it helps you. Count the years if you must, bearing in mind the left wanted to subtract 18 years from that and it was only his choice to stay.
What's bullshit is the left's brazen excusing of violence for political points, the conflation of, in the worst case, manslaughter, to premeditated murder and terrorism. The law and common sense sees more intent and malice in the latter.
Regarding Antifa violence, every incident I stated and more is documented, but it seems a consistent pattern that left leaning violence is downplayed or denied. Acid attacks on the Deploraball were another Antifa gift to the war on fascists (they failed and were arrested and charged).
Why are we even trying to equate a bunch of things are horrible anyway? The amount of blame shifting going on here is astounding. "yeah those guys are pretty bad but look at what this group that may or may not be associated with my/their political did! Its much worse so we should focus on that!" "Nu-uh" "uh-huh". There is a bunch a of crap going on that is despicable and comparing atrocity peens is going to fix none of it. Can we simply address the issues individually without having to compare political parties?
you're saying that whoever is criticizing trump for shifting blame for an extremist-right deadly attack to the antifa is actually shifting the blame to the extremist-right from the antifa! the irony is immense here because it's actually you who are shifting the blame away from trump for being soft on terrorism to his critics for being soft on antifa. this is classical right-wing projection and marks you as a right-wing apologist.
trump can't go after the extremist-right coalition in his rhethoric because he sincerely loves the support he gets from them and their sympathizers. only a sick man in a position of a president could act this way. there's no blame shifting to be had here. this is how things are.
and about your "Can we simply address the issues individually..." no, we can't. and i mean "we" as a species. whatever is happening in society can not be described as a "bunch of individual crap going on". history is not a game of whackamole where you had a bunch of disparate, individual things that people didn't like so they got rid of them one by one while other isolated problems magically popped up. that's plainly not how things went down, first, and, second, minimally informed people tend to be able to see (or at least look for) the bigger picture, to see events and actors in a proper context of corresponding trends, metamorphoses and interrelationships, because human brain is very capable of doing this.
What's bullshit is the left's brazen excusing of violence for political points, the conflation of, in the worst case, manslaughter, to premeditated murder and terrorism. The law and common sense sees more intent and malice in the latter.
Who's excusing violence? He committed serious crimes and deserved a serious punishment - but he'd had one. Lopez had served 35 years, which is an extremely long sentence - longer indeed than any other FALN member had served (many of whom were charged with even more serious crimes). The original length of FALN sentences were also much longer than given for similar crimes without political overtones, so I don't think it's surprising that there was so much international pressure to free him. You may consider a request from the United Nations to do that to be from the 'left', along with labour groups, human rights organisations etc. However, there were also calls for release from religious denominations like methodists, baptists & catholics as well as business leaders.
Given that the FALN were clearly a nationalist group, not a left-wing one, I can't see any argument for considering that Obama was acting in a party-political fashion or promoting his own interests by releasing Lopez. Rather he was doing what he considered best for the country.
Now might be a good time to encourage everyone here to donate a small amount (such as $10) to the Red Cross or another organization you trust to help out with what is going on in Houston and in the outlying areas. Things are looking pretty bad.
@bob_veng "you're saying that whoever is criticizing trump for shifting blame for an extremist-right deadly attack to the antifa is actually shifting the blame to the extremist-right from the antifa! the irony is immense here because it's actually you who are shifting the blame away from trump for being soft on terrorism to his critics for being soft on antifa. this is classical right-wing projection and marks you as a right-wing apologist."
Ahahahha oh man you are so sure of yourself. I'm not talking about Trump at all. I'm directly referring to what I see happen on this very thread. Let me give you an example. Forumite A will post about something that makes them upset and rightfully so. Then forumite B comes along and asks why we are focusing on that when THIS person did something that is also despicable AND can somehow be linked to ALL other members that somehow happen to belong to that side of the political spectrum. Forumite A counters back that forumite B's example is not as bad and is therefore inconsequential and furthermore, forumite B MUST support the actions of said individual for shifting focus away from the first issue brought up.
I have seen this scenario play out time and time again. What I don't understand is WHY people feel like they need to do this. We should be able to discuss these things as their own topics when they come up, no need to compare atrocities. In a hilarious twist of irony, me calling this out, apparently means I support it and am apologist for a political party I do not belong to. Notice how I didn't label ANY political group in either this post or the last.
Now might be a good time to encourage everyone here to donate a small amount (such as $10) to the Red Cross or another organization you trust to help out with what is going on in Houston and in the outlying areas. Things are looking pretty bad.
4 feet of rain expected to fall on Houston. Trump is going to visit the area on Tuesday. Here is hoping that people there remain safe in the upcoming days.
Now might be a good time to encourage everyone here to donate a small amount (such as $10) to the Red Cross or another organization you trust to help out with what is going on in Houston and in the outlying areas. Things are looking pretty bad.
4 feet of rain expected to fall on Houston. Trump is going to visit the area on Tuesday. Here is hoping that people there remain safe in the upcoming days.
Don't tell Trump but he won't be able to play golf when he stays at his Houston golf course, it's underwater.
Now might be a good time to encourage everyone here to donate a small amount (such as $10) to the Red Cross or another organization you trust to help out with what is going on in Houston and in the outlying areas. Things are looking pretty bad.
4 feet of rain expected to fall on Houston. Trump is going to visit the area on Tuesday. Here is hoping that people there remain safe in the upcoming days.
Don't tell Trump but he won't be able to play golf when he stays at his Houston golf course, it's underwater.
Don't tell him, let him find out when he gets there
Now might be a good time to encourage everyone here to donate a small amount (such as $10) to the Red Cross or another organization you trust to help out with what is going on in Houston and in the outlying areas. Things are looking pretty bad.
4 feet of rain expected to fall on Houston. Trump is going to visit the area on Tuesday. Here is hoping that people there remain safe in the upcoming days.
He shouldn't be visiting the area until everything is under control. The resources needed to protect a President are likely still going to be needed on Tuesday. What possible benefit is served by him being on the ground in Houston for a photo-op when the rain isn't even showing any signs of stopping at this point??
Thanks?? It's like this guy was stripped of all normal human responses. This (and his other tweets today) make it seem like he is excited and thrilled to be President while such a big disaster is happening, like it's all part of his reality show and the rain and flooding is nothing more than a whiz-bang special effect highlighting his greatness. Who talks like this during a full-scale natural disaster?? AND, just because his timing is so impeccable, I wonder how this move would poll after this weekend:
@bob_veng I dunno, but what I've read in much of history, various groups have a habit of sticking out their neck and kinda getting whacked back down. The establishment, whichever it is, will always try to push back against groups that seek to build a new establishment. When the establishment doesn't succeed in whacking, then we get change.
Revolutions aren't that common in history, but they are a key aspect of change. Revolutions can be bloodless, but they are still regularly demonized or oppressed. The US also has had smaller revolutions, like the semi-successful civil rights movement that many whites look at as having 'done enough' for minorities. The US is not immune to change, thus 'sticking out' is still used.
I think a hard lesson for most people to learn is that people make decisions that, at least at the time, made some kind of sense... Trump makes sense to his core supporters, even if he's certifiable/full of **** to many more. Now, the even harder step is realizing that if something makes sense to someone, there is likely a kernel of some kind of truth; there are many bitter whites who are chronically underemployed, while the government 'allows' (not that they can really do much) both jobs shipped overseas, and skilled immigrants brought in to take jobs. Those far right and left anti-establishment types both agree the government has a significant corruption problen, and both are very angry about it. Guess what, there is some corruption problems, and there are incidents of state overreach that occur. Ever White Nationalists have a kernel, despite all their inanity on so many issues, as uniform communities tend to be more peaceful. I think there are more benefits from diversity, but diversity requires accomodations, and they think it'll be better to just not bother. Note, ignorance is used by many groups in order to manipulate, so even if a group has some truth, they have lots of lies.
Ultimately, partisanship won't go away until both sides (gah!) can learn to respect eachother... this includes acknowledging that both sides have some validity, and that view will enable cooperation.
Lots of videos of leftist mobs beating down people today at an anti marxist event. Must be nazis! The systemic use of unprovoked violence from the left to innocent people, and the outright encouragement of it from the mainstream, has led to this.
There are always video examples of their depraved acts, but since it just happened today these ones are particularly easy to find.
Its funny to me now the explosive outrage when Trump rightly said both sides were violent in that instance. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply isn't paying attention.
These are the heroes, who everyone from mainstream left CNN to hardcore left Mother Jones and everyone in between has given a free pass.
Said it before and i'll say it again, difference between the right and left (on an instutional level especially) is that the right condemns violence on their behalf and the left protects them in any way feasible.
Just a bit ago CNN changed a headline that said Antifa seeks "peace through violence" because Antifa didn't like being called violent. This is about the level of condemnation I continue to expect to see. Tim Kaine's son was arrested in a violent antifa riot so I guess the ties just run too deep.
Its funny to me now the explosive outrage when Trump rightly said both sides were violent in that instance. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply isn't paying attention.
Your links come from events in Berkeley. Trump was talking about the events in Charlottesville.
Right Wing Free Speechers intentionally are assaulting and provoking Antifa for photo ops and for right wing media to get worked up about. Despite the 'omg no cops in this picture' cluckbait there was a heavy police presence at Berkeley and several arrests were made.
'Tennessee GOP' tweeted out a photo showing the Cleveland Cavaliers crowd and tried to pass it off as the Phoenix rally crowds (which were much smaller).
Its funny to me now the explosive outrage when Trump rightly said both sides were violent in that instance. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply isn't paying attention.
Your links come from events in Berkeley. Trump was talking about the events in Charlottesville.
Charlottesville was indeed one-sided.
You mean besides bear macing non nazis and all the other documented leftist violence that absolutely happened? Come now. Don't want to defend Cville guys but truth is truth.
Lots of videos of leftist mobs beating down people today at an anti marxist event. Must be nazis! The systemic use of unprovoked violence from the left to innocent people, and the outright encouragement of it from the mainstream, has led to this.
There are always video examples of their depraved acts, but since it just happened today these ones are particularly easy to find.
Its funny to me now the explosive outrage when Trump rightly said both sides were violent in that instance. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply isn't paying attention.
These are the heroes, who everyone from mainstream left CNN to hardcore left Mother Jones and everyone in between has given a free pass.
Said it before and i'll say it again, difference between the right and left (on an instutional level especially) is that the right condemns violence on their behalf and the left protects them in any way feasible.
Just a bit ago CNN changed a headline that said Antifa seeks "peace through violence" because Antifa didn't like being called violent. This is about the level of condemnation I continue to expect to see. Tim Kaine's son was arrested in a violent antifa riot so I guess the ties just run too deep.
here is the issue I have with this.
You only see two sides. Left and Right. You think everyone on one side bands together to attack the other side. That isn't the case.
The democratic party and Antifa at so far separated by ideals that they do not, and never have represented one another - ever. Antifa are people turning violent on the street are no one's heroes.
Do protests turn violent due to select groups of people who hijack them for their own goals and benefits? Yes, of course they do. It does not mean the peaceful protesters, or the groups that organized the event condone the behaviour. It does not mean that media needs to give them the coverage and exposure they need to recruit new followers. It does not mean politicians who lean left need to condemn their behaviour, because their behaviour is not reflective of the democratic policy.
Now compare that to Trump and the Alt-right. I am not going to repost anything, because it has been posted enough already in this thread. The Alt-right and Neonazis see Trump as their saviour. He refuses to distant himself from them and their causes, the Arpario pardon is just another example.
Was there violence on both sides? Sure, just watch the Vice piece again and watch White nationalist get sprayed with pepper spray or the video of the guy taking a shot at a protester, as he was responding by something been thrown at him. But the "many sides" wasn't the real issue. The real issue is he didn't condemn the groups by name. He didn't say White Nationalism is bad and against the spirit of the constitution. He did not say that a white nationalist drove his car into a group of peaceful protesters. He blamed those peaceful protesters who were run over as much as he blamed the white nationalist. That is the issue with his "many sides" comment.
If you ask any politician (perhaps besides Trump, but he really isn't a politician) about violence at a rally or protest, regardless of who is committing the act, they will condemn the behaviour. It really isn't a juicy quote, because guess what, 99.99% of people would condemn the behaviour. It really doesn't need to be said.
Also, still no fatalities. There are at least 4 fatalities tied to the Alt-right. 1 in Charlottesville, 1 black military service member in Maryland, and 2 guys protecting a Muslim woman in Portland who were stabbed to death. One used a car, two used a knife. Every one of them direct supporters of the President. This isn't even a conversation until there is a body count tied to the other side.
And if we're talking about rhetoric, let's go back to the campaign event where Trump said Second Amendment people might have to "do something" about Hillary. That guy is now President. There is violent rhetoric coming from the left as well. And it's all a result of Trump's campaign taking us to that place. Trump is a demagogue. And this is what happens in countries run by demagogues. Throughout history.
Why are we even trying to equate a bunch of things are horrible anyway? The amount of blame shifting going on here is astounding. "yeah those guys are pretty bad but look at what this group that may or may not be associated with my/their political did! Its much worse so we should focus on that!" "Nu-uh" "uh-huh". There is a bunch a of crap going on that is despicable and comparing atrocity peens is going to fix none of it. Can we simply address the issues individually without having to compare political parties?
@ThacoBell Nice one. I hear what you are saying T. It is often misunderstood, esp. when not face to face. One of several tough hurdles to overcome when trying to mediate between two or more groups is also one of the basic guildelines we try to follow in conflict resolution.
*Focus on the issues not on positions." ----- It is not the easiest guideline to follow, esp in emotionally charged situations and events. Well, I know it is often so for myself , especially in regards to my own personal beliefs and opinions.
Comments
They are something. They are paid to do a job. To cause chaos and unrest whether it be by the government or private entities. They are paid to break up, with violence, peaceful protests or to start riots. Radicals. Just like the radicals on the right.
Also, if they where nothing, why has Europe been trying to exterminate these cockroaches for decades?
The world doesn't spin only when the American media tells a tale.
https://static.currentaffairs.org/2017/08/wait-do-people-actually-know-just-how-evil-this-man-is
- Phoenix New-Times had begun calling Joe Arpaio’s “parade of corpses,” with “endless” numbers of court cases over “needless deaths and injuries in the jails.” Arpaio refused to disclose the number of deaths in his facilities.
-None of this served any purpose other than furthering Arpaio’s attempts to build a brand out of callousness. “Jails are intended to be punishment,” Arpaio said (although jail aren’t intended to be punishment, because most people in them haven’t been convicted of a crime yet), and he joked that the facility was his own personal “concentration camp,” dismissing all concerns as “civil rights crap.”
-Inmates were forced to live without air conditioning in the Arizona heat, which reached well above 110 degrees. (At one point it reached 145 within the tents, causing the inmates’ shoes to melt.) Even the showers provided no relief; they were kept near boiling temperature. Winter was somehow even worse: the tents were unheated, but Arpaio would not permit warm clothing, not even a jacket. A former inmate wrote in the Washington Post that it was “freezing, achingly cold,” and that detainees wrapped their extremities with plastic bags. “I was in so much pain,” he said, that even now he cannot be cold without being reminded of it.
-Arpaio “tortured inmates who were on psychotropic medication by locking them in unbearably hot solitary confinement cells.” Those with physical vulnerabilities were mistreated, too; a paraplegic had his neck broken by guards and a pregnant woman lost her baby after officers left her in her cell instead of taking her to the hospital. It even took a federal court order to ensure “functional and sanitary toilets and sinks, with toilet paper and soap.”
-Marty Atencio was a third-generation military veteran who had served in the Gulf War. He suffered mental problems after the service and was arrested. Officers began to make fun of Atencio’s mental state, and when he refused an order to take his shoes off, they closed in on Atencio and began beating and tasering him. They dragged Atencio’s unconscious body back to his cell, where he was stripped naked and left on the floor. His body was found “covered with bruises, lacerations and puncture marks,” and would never regain consciousness.
-During the more than two decades that Joe Arpaio served as sheriff of Maricopa County, overseeing the jail system, millions of dollars would be paid out in lawsuits over the deaths of inmates. In 1996, Scott Norberg died after being suffocated in one of Arpaio’s “restraint chairs,” after being descended on by “fourteen guards beating, shocking, and suffocating [him].” They were, said an eyewitness inmate, “like a pack of dogs.” After the Sheriff’s Office was accused of discarding evidence in the case, including the deceased’s crushed larynx, his family received an $8 million settlement. In 2015, Felix Torres was pulled over on his bicycle for riding the wrong way up the street, and found to be in possession of drug paraphernalia. While in jail awaiting trial, he was taken to the County Medical Center for severe stomach pain. Though Torres said he had a history of ulcers, doctors decided he had a hernia, and gave him a drug not recommended for people with ulcers. After being returned to jail, Torres, “spent the next few days crying, writhing in pain, and begging guards to help him or take him to the hospital.” Torres began “banging on his cell door and asking for help,” but an officer told him “You’re bullshitting… go to sleep.” On the night he died, Torres asked multiple officers for help, telling them he was dying. “You’re fucking faking it,” one replied. Torres’s family would receive $1 million. (And while it should make no difference, we might bear in mind that at the time of his death, Felix Torres was an innocent man.)
-He also ignored and did no investigating into sexual assaults while grandstanding against immigration which led to things like a 13 yr old being raped repeatedly over a long period of time. A journalistic investigation—one that would eventually win a Pulitzer Prize—revealed that hundreds of reported sex crimes had gone uninvestigated by Arpaio’s office.
-There is ton more stuff on this guy including investigations into rivals and !planning a fake assassination attempt on himself to score political points! Instead of listening to the judge that found him in contempt, Arpaio hired a private investigator to investigate the judge’s wife. There's a lot more. A truly despicable person.
Links and sublinks in the article. And of course Trump will offer him a position in his government.
Fixed it.
The fact that this is even in question, is really the epitome of this selective outrage that we see so much on the left. Far from being two wrongs make a right, they don't even see wrong from the left if they are doing anything short of burning puppies. What we know happened for sure:
Set up an escape plot with members on the outside who were arrested with guns and explosives, and whose plot obviously involed using them on guards, which added 15 yrs to his sentance.
He was still given the chance to leave in 1999, and a number of FALN terrorists did leave, but refused because the offer included a renounciation of violence. Obama's had no such requirement.
Witnesses from within the gang pegged him as a bomb making instructor.
A bomb factory along with detonators and illegal firearms were found in his home.
When he was arrested, he was found with a bomb making manual designed for their gang members along with explosives and illegal firearms again.
While I didn't look into all the details of the trial or anything, that sounds like a series of pretty good links.
Antifa hasn't murdered in the U.S as far as I know, they just hound all manner of ordinary right wing events smashing kids in the head with bike locks, beating up and pepper spraying women, stabbing animals, and generally causing violence and chaos wherever they go. Every once in a while, in a truly rare event, they end up punching a nazi just as despicable as they are.
Pepper spraying women? Ok are they Nazi women coming after them with masks and weapons because pepper spray is a self defense thing.
Stabbing animals? Seems unlikely but a far greater problem is police shooting animals. Look that one up.
Smashing kids with bike locks? Yeah that has to be a single incident you are clutching on to. I'm going to speculate that they don't in fact make a habit of that.
Violence and chaos wherever they go? Don't they go after Nazis and right wing facists? So yeah if that's where they are going it's because it's already there from the facists.
You don't get Antifa without these guys or we'd have heard of them on their own if that was the case so the problem is the Nazis and right winger conspiracy types. Antifa is a reaction to that.
The acceptance and blind eye to facist violence by the government has led them to think they have to take the law into their own hands like Batman. Look back to the lynchings in the South. Government has endorsed right wing violence.
Then read it again. And again.
You keep a prisoner locked in a tent at 145 degrees, you are trying to kill them. You deny them warm clothing in the icy winter, you are trying to kill them. If your guards break a prisoner's neck, they--and by extension you--are trying to kill them. When those same guards refuse to take a prisoner who is in severe pain to the hospital, you are trying to kill them.
You're damn right Arpaio abused his power. He abused his power so much that he tortured thousands of prisoners and got away with mass intentional murder. He paid millions of dollars to cover it up. And what was his jail sentence? Six. Months. He won't even serve that, thanks to our ding-dong of a president.
Trying to equate that to the release of a terrorist who's already served 20 years of his 35 year sentence is a false equivalence and complete and utter bullshit.
It's the same technique again and again, one kid got a vaccine and later got autism then some liar standing to make money off of a con goes on TV and says "vaccines cause autism!" and many people believe him. The liar could even trot out that one autistic kid and be like - look vaccines equal autism! He doesn't trot out the millions that get vaccines and no autism just one kid. People believe it.
"A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic." - Stalin
People struggle to wrap their heads around large numbers. What's the physical difference between having ten million dollars and having a billion dollars? What would ten thousand comic books look like? How many people do you know that you've interacted with in your whole life compared to how many people are in the world?
Do you care about some kid starving in Afghanistan? What about an old man in the UK? What if you knew the in Afghanistan was named Bill and had blue eyes and blonde hair? Just knowing a bit about that person (should) make a difference compared to hearing "ten thousand people died due to hunger in Afghanistan".
So what does that mean in relation to false equivalence? Again biased media outlets (Fox News and nefarious right wing websites) cherry picks one or two examples out of a large group and they spin around in knots to fit the narrative they want to sell. People that inherently want to believe that do. Then they repeat it to their friends and so on.
Do some research for yourself besides the Daily Stormer or whatever. There's probably a reason these stories are exclusive to a couple of koch brothers or sinclair funded sites. And no it's not a massive conspiracy involving people across the globe.
If there somehow is a hidden antifa thing that's been killing hundreds of people like right wingers have then we'd have heard about it. They are not equal to nazis and racists that have killed literally millions of people.
What's bullshit is the left's brazen excusing of violence for political points, the conflation of, in the worst case, manslaughter, to premeditated murder and terrorism. The law and common sense sees more intent and malice in the latter.
Regarding Antifa violence, every incident I stated and more is documented, but it seems a consistent pattern that left leaning violence is downplayed or denied. Acid attacks on the Deploraball were another Antifa gift to the war on fascists (they failed and were arrested and charged).
trump can't go after the extremist-right coalition in his rhethoric because he sincerely loves the support he gets from them and their sympathizers. only a sick man in a position of a president could act this way. there's no blame shifting to be had here. this is how things are.
and about your "Can we simply address the issues individually..."
no, we can't. and i mean "we" as a species.
whatever is happening in society can not be described as a "bunch of individual crap going on". history is not a game of whackamole where you had a bunch of disparate, individual things that people didn't like so they got rid of them one by one while other isolated problems magically popped up. that's plainly not how things went down, first, and, second, minimally informed people tend to be able to see (or at least look for) the bigger picture, to see events and actors in a proper context of corresponding trends, metamorphoses and interrelationships, because human brain is very capable of doing this.
Given that the FALN were clearly a nationalist group, not a left-wing one, I can't see any argument for considering that Obama was acting in a party-political fashion or promoting his own interests by releasing Lopez. Rather he was doing what he considered best for the country.
Ahahahha oh man you are so sure of yourself. I'm not talking about Trump at all. I'm directly referring to what I see happen on this very thread. Let me give you an example. Forumite A will post about something that makes them upset and rightfully so. Then forumite B comes along and asks why we are focusing on that when THIS person did something that is also despicable AND can somehow be linked to ALL other members that somehow happen to belong to that side of the political spectrum. Forumite A counters back that forumite B's example is not as bad and is therefore inconsequential and furthermore, forumite B MUST support the actions of said individual for shifting focus away from the first issue brought up.
I have seen this scenario play out time and time again. What I don't understand is WHY people feel like they need to do this. We should be able to discuss these things as their own topics when they come up, no need to compare atrocities. In a hilarious twist of irony, me calling this out, apparently means I support it and am apologist for a political party I do not belong to. Notice how I didn't label ANY political group in either this post or the last.
Here is hoping that people there remain safe in the upcoming days.
Thanks?? It's like this guy was stripped of all normal human responses. This (and his other tweets today) make it seem like he is excited and thrilled to be President while such a big disaster is happening, like it's all part of his reality show and the rain and flooding is nothing more than a whiz-bang special effect highlighting his greatness. Who talks like this during a full-scale natural disaster?? AND, just because his timing is so impeccable, I wonder how this move would poll after this weekend:
Revolutions aren't that common in history, but they are a key aspect of change. Revolutions can be bloodless, but they are still regularly demonized or oppressed. The US also has had smaller revolutions, like the semi-successful civil rights movement that many whites look at as having 'done enough' for minorities. The US is not immune to change, thus 'sticking out' is still used.
I think a hard lesson for most people to learn is that people make decisions that, at least at the time, made some kind of sense... Trump makes sense to his core supporters, even if he's certifiable/full of **** to many more. Now, the even harder step is realizing that if something makes sense to someone, there is likely a kernel of some kind of truth; there are many bitter whites who are chronically underemployed, while the government 'allows' (not that they can really do much) both jobs shipped overseas, and skilled immigrants brought in to take jobs. Those far right and left anti-establishment types both agree the government has a significant corruption problen, and both are very angry about it. Guess what, there is some corruption problems, and there are incidents of state overreach that occur. Ever White Nationalists have a kernel, despite all their inanity on so many issues, as uniform communities tend to be more peaceful. I think there are more benefits from diversity, but diversity requires accomodations, and they think it'll be better to just not bother. Note, ignorance is used by many groups in order to manipulate, so even if a group has some truth, they have lots of lies.
Ultimately, partisanship won't go away until both sides (gah!) can learn to respect eachother... this includes acknowledging that both sides have some validity, and that view will enable cooperation.
There are always video examples of their depraved acts, but since it just happened today these ones are particularly easy to find.
Its funny to me now the explosive outrage when Trump rightly said both sides were violent in that instance. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply isn't paying attention.
These are the heroes, who everyone from mainstream left CNN to hardcore left Mother Jones and everyone in between has given a free pass.
Said it before and i'll say it again, difference between the right and left (on an instutional level especially) is that the right condemns violence on their behalf and the left protects them in any way feasible.
Just a bit ago CNN changed a headline that said Antifa seeks "peace through violence" because Antifa didn't like being called violent. This is about the level of condemnation I continue to expect to see. Tim Kaine's son was arrested in a violent antifa riot so I guess the ties just run too deep.
Charlottesville was indeed one-sided.
'Tennessee GOP' tweeted out a photo showing the Cleveland Cavaliers crowd and tried to pass it off as the Phoenix rally crowds (which were much smaller).
This is manufactured outrage and fake news.
You only see two sides. Left and Right. You think everyone on one side bands together to attack the other side. That isn't the case.
The democratic party and Antifa at so far separated by ideals that they do not, and never have represented one another - ever. Antifa are people turning violent on the street are no one's heroes.
Do protests turn violent due to select groups of people who hijack them for their own goals and benefits? Yes, of course they do. It does not mean the peaceful protesters, or the groups that organized the event condone the behaviour. It does not mean that media needs to give them the coverage and exposure they need to recruit new followers. It does not mean politicians who lean left need to condemn their behaviour, because their behaviour is not reflective of the democratic policy.
Now compare that to Trump and the Alt-right. I am not going to repost anything, because it has been posted enough already in this thread. The Alt-right and Neonazis see Trump as their saviour. He refuses to distant himself from them and their causes, the Arpario pardon is just another example.
Was there violence on both sides? Sure, just watch the Vice piece again and watch White nationalist get sprayed with pepper spray or the video of the guy taking a shot at a protester, as he was responding by something been thrown at him. But the "many sides" wasn't the real issue. The real issue is he didn't condemn the groups by name. He didn't say White Nationalism is bad and against the spirit of the constitution. He did not say that a white nationalist drove his car into a group of peaceful protesters. He blamed those peaceful protesters who were run over as much as he blamed the white nationalist. That is the issue with his "many sides" comment.
If you ask any politician (perhaps besides Trump, but he really isn't a politician) about violence at a rally or protest, regardless of who is committing the act, they will condemn the behaviour. It really isn't a juicy quote, because guess what, 99.99% of people would condemn the behaviour. It really doesn't need to be said.
And if we're talking about rhetoric, let's go back to the campaign event where Trump said Second Amendment people might have to "do something" about Hillary. That guy is now President. There is violent rhetoric coming from the left as well. And it's all a result of Trump's campaign taking us to that place. Trump is a demagogue. And this is what happens in countries run by demagogues. Throughout history.
*Focus on the issues not on positions."
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It is not the easiest guideline to follow, esp in emotionally charged situations and events. Well, I know it is often so for myself