Trump also was against sanctioning Russia iirc, and was fairly vocal about it. He also supported campaign folks/Flynn after they were exposed for being corrupt.
I wouldn't say the Russia investigation is baseless until the investigation is allowed to finish without impediment, which may never happen.
Then let it finish and then accuse, not the other way around. As of sanctions - they are still here, right? Though, business did not stop as it never stopped before Trump.
@Artona Did I get you right and you suspect Wikileaks to be a Russian company? Or, may be, even that legendary "Russian Hackers"? And all because for some time you did not read anything about Russian Government there?
But I rest my case - media did their job. Just say "Russians" and be done with it, nobody would suspect any play.
Did I get you right and you suspect Wikileaks to be a Russian company? Or, may be, even that legendary "Russian Hackers"?
Of course not. After all, history knows no example of government trying to discredit other government by using proxies. I mean, it's not like government are using propaganda, and spies, and agents. ^^
But I rest my case - media did their job.
Ah, the ageless "HURR DURR SHEEPLE OPEN YOUR EYES!" classic.
Worth your "there are no facts but only our believes"
And in any way, what does it has to do with the fact that when Wikileaks publishes something, it uses solid documented evidences? Unlike politicians or "journalists" with their "believes" and "feelings".
And in any way, what does it has to do with the fact that when Wikileaks publishes something, it uses solid documented evidences? Unlike politicians or "journalists" with their "believes" and "feelings".
What about son of President of US, who releases his emails? Are those "beliefs", or "feelings"? Are you saying that Trump sharing intel from Israel with Ławrow is someone's "belief"? Is it someone's "feeling"?
Worth your "there are no facts but only our believes"
Well, I never said that, regardless that you *believe* I did. What I said was What we consider a fact is a matter of belief. . There is pretty obvious difference, and it does not lie in semantics.
Let us steer away from discussing each other and focus instead on politics. I've been watching this 300-page thread for quite some time now, and I've never seen anything good come out of dissecting other people's words or making claims about another forumite's reasoning skills or intelligence.
@BillyYank That caption should have read that Trump jumps right into action selling hats, talking about crowd sizes and neglecting to meet or even mention Houston victims until two days after he supposedly jumped into action.
And supposedly Trump is probably going to dump on us again on Friday this time he'll cancel DACA. Maybe some guys will quit too or get fired.
"We Only Kill Black People,’ Police Officer Says During Traffic Stop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eKQJm4Oe_0 “But you’re not black,” Lieutenant Abbott replies. “Remember, we only kill black people. Yeah. We only kill black people, right?”
Sarcasm is a stealthy way of trying to get others to see your perspective. Subtlty just doesn't seem to work anymore. Thanks to fake news everybodies' words are taken as who they are regardless of intent or context. Welcome to the 21st century reality. I'm glad I'm not a politician or clergy member in this day and age...
Saying it sarcastically is better than saying it seriously, though it is in horribly poor taste.
I think a cop should be able to get his point across in this situation, in this day and age, without resorting to this type of statement. Our standards for cops are pathetically low. It's gotten to the point where it's seen as not so bad when they simply JOKE about summarily executing black people.
I think that people who are not peace officers should not be able to judge them. We have Ombudsman and government offices that are appointed to that. Same as I think that a non Christian should not judge their religion or Holy Book without studying it themselves, in the Hellenic and Aramaic. Goes for the Koran and all other writings, scriptures and religions. Do the homework and walk the mile first.
I think that people who are not peace officers should not be able to judge them. We have Ombudsman and government offices that are appointed to that. Same as I think that a non Christian should not judge their religion or Holy Book without studying it themselves, in the Hellenic and Aramaic. Goes for the Koran and all other writings, scriptures and religions. Do the homework and walk the mile first.
No one (in America at least) is conscripted into being a cop. They are given immense power (they are really a dictatorship unto themselves on the streets) and the ability to use lethal force to defend themselves. The idea that they conduct themselves at all times in a professional manner is NOT too much to ask actually. Most people at their jobs have to do so.
There is a myth that policing is uniquely dangerous. It isn't. Here is a list of jobs that are MORE dangerous, none of which come with the perk of total power over other citizens and the right to carry and use a gun. Numbers after the profession are deaths/100,000:
Fishermen: 128.9 Logging workers: 116.7 Aircraft pilots: 72.4 Iron and steelworkers: 46.4 Farmers and ranchers: 39.5 Garbage collectors: 36.8 Roofers: 34.4 Electrical power line installation/repair: 29.8 Truck drivers: 22.8 Oil and gas extraction: 21.9 Taxi drivers: 19.3 Drinking establishment employees: 17.0 Construction workers: 16.0 Police and deputies: 15.6
It is more dangerous to be a taxi driver or bartender in America than a cop. These numbers are from 2010, but the dynamics of the professions seem unlikely to have changed much if at all in the last 7 years.
If you actually think that being a bartender is equal to being a Peace officer in America....
Are you having a go at this "sarcastic" thing, Oh you. You almost got me.
I don't think it, math does. This same argument took place when I originally posted these numbers on another site after the situation in Ferguson, MO a few years ago. Some people were arguing that despite the actual numbers proving otherwise, that there was an inherent danger to policing that couldn't be quantified by these statistics. But just saying that's the case doesn't make it true.
Here is the data from 4 years later. The bartender number is still basically the same, the police number actually went DOWN by 5:
Common sense dictates that those stats are bullshit. If you are going to argue based on bullshit, that, being a bartender or taxi driver is much more detrimental to your health (or mortality) than being a Peace Officer. WOW.
You do understand what a Peace Officer has to go through on a daily basis? Just at an ANTIFA rally they are putting themselves in harms way.
The next time you are in trouble don't call the Police, call a Cab instead. Based on that argument of course.
Worth your "there are no facts but only our believes"
And in any way, what does it has to do with the fact that when Wikileaks publishes something, it uses solid documented evidences? Unlike politicians or "journalists" with their "believes" and "feelings".
There would be nothing incompatible about believing that an organisation is desseminating information which is from authentic sources, and that it also serves a particular interest. Selective use of information is a powerful propaganda tool.
Common sense dictates that those stats are bullshit. If you are going to argue based on bullshit, that, being a bartender or taxi driver is much more detrimental to your health (or mortality) than being a Peace Officer. WOW.
You do understand what a Peace Officer has to go through on a daily basis? Just at an ANTIFA rally they are putting themselves in harms way.
The next time you are in trouble don't call the Police, call a Cab instead. Based on that argument of course.
The stats are from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Census of Fatal Occupational Industries. Whatever common sense may dictate does not change the numbers. Out of every 100,000 people in those professions, more bartenders and taxi drivers die on the job than cops do. And, again, you are making the exact same argument someone else made when I posted these stats years ago. That because of what a police officer has to go through on a daily basis (from a psychological standpoint, I guess), that the actual hard facts of how many of them die compared to other professions somehow doesn't count, and is bullshit by default. Because.....reasons, I guess. The actual fact is that the public at large has been sold a bill of goods as to just HOW dangerous policing is, because there are hard numbers to back up the fact that jobs that are viewed as completely mundane are statistically more dangerous, if danger is quantified by fatalities on the job.
Arguing about the psychological effect police work has on cops isn't part of my argument, nor is it one I am sympathetic to. They signed up for the job. And DESPITE what they have to witness or deal with on a daily basis, the job still isn't as dangerous as it is made out to be. Your argument boils down to "well that just can't possibly be true". But it is true. I presented data to back up that claim. You are presenting feelings. Those studies weren't done and compiled simply so someone like me could use them in an argument. They weren't compiled to smear cops. They are just numbers related to occupational fatalities. They don't have an agenda.
Common sense dictates that those stats are bullshit. If you are going to argue based on bullshit, that, being a bartender or taxi driver is much more detrimental to your health (or mortality) than being a Peace Officer.
See, the good thing here if that you don't have to rely on "common sense", and can instead just check the source, which jjstraka34 has been kind enough to provide. Once there, you can see on their chart that they used data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, data which you can freely access online.
Now i've only done the most cursory check but from what I've seen their data is thought to be fairly accurate, if based on somewhat small sample sizes. That said, looking at a few other years, I've seen no reason to dismiss the numbers jjstraka brought to our attention as statistical artifacts, since while police always seem to get a fairly high number of injuries, both fatal and non, I haven't yet seen them top any yearly chart.
Here are the numbers for the top 10, again, in 2014. In all 3 of my lists (which I believe represent 2010, 2013, and 2014) taxi drivers have more on the job fatalities than cops. I am actually actively trying to find a year in which they DIDN'T have a more dangerous job, and I have yet to be able to do so. In all 3 studies/compilations of data, the stats are remarkably consistent and similar:
Fatal traffic accidents and easy robbery targets increase their numbers drastically.
"Drinking Established Employees" should actually be read as "bouncers" not bartenders, who are tasked with dealing with rowdy and unruly patrons with less protection than police. One concealed knife or broken bottle it's game over.
Common sense dictates that those stats are bullshit. If you are going to argue based on bullshit, that, being a bartender or taxi driver is much more detrimental to your health (or mortality) than being a Peace Officer. WOW.
You do understand what a Peace Officer has to go through on a daily basis? Just at an ANTIFA rally they are putting themselves in harms way.
As @Chnapy says you don't need to rely on common sense to review those statistics. However, even if you were using just common sense I don't find the statistics surprising. You mention being at an ANTIFA rally as an example of something very dangerous, but have there ever been any deaths of police at such rallies? I suspect not and, more generally, consider the news coverage that occurs whenever a policeman is killed in the line of duty. That tends to be national coverage and is normally marked by special services - and the reason for that is precisely because it's a very unusual event. There are consistently over 30,000 deaths a year in the US as a result of traffic accidents, so any given accident is unlikely to be major news. In 2015 there were a total of 85 police and sheriffs deaths at work in the US (I haven't checked the figures behind that, but past experience tells me that probably half of those are car accidents).
The idea that police need to fear for their lives on a daily basis is simply a myth. That doesn't mean they don't face challenges and need to be careful, but that applies to many occupations. Both in terms of death and serious injury being a policeman is roughly as dangerous as being a general construction worker.
The list looks pretty good, having operated a construction business for many years in the past, 2 cousins working as deputy's, in both vice, bomb squad (and a few other positions over 25 years service), and another cousin working down on an oil rig off LA coast as a roughneck. When at family gatherings the deputy's have agreed they would not do the roughneck's job for love nor money (alot!). When younger I also lived in a part of a big(er) city that cabbies were being murdered for the little money they had on them. Personally, I wouldn't want any of their jobs after hearing from them about what they face or have faced on a yearly basis.
I think for law enforcement, the media gives much more coverage compared to these other jobs as it seems to stand out to folks more in general. When I was in Public Health, I attended a yearly state conference that presented a study that showed the biggest risk of heart attacks actually went to firemen. IIRC it had something to do with stress, being on standby and immediately going to red alert status, over and over again, from home/work to truck, to arriving on scene. Made sense at the time I recall.
One more note on the police numbers--my wife and I both worked at the local police department in college as civilian employees. One thing that affects those numbers is that few police actual perform the duties that @TakisMegas thinks are so dangerous. We had about ~50 sworn officers which provided three shifts of about 7-10 patrol officers (men and women actually on the street). The remainder were a collection of administration, investigation, community outreach, and other non-patrol work.
Another important note is that the biggest source of officer fatalities are traffic accidents--the last number I saw was pegged these at greater than 80%.
I had a friend who was a "peace officer" in the military. Yeah they weren't called that they were called military police. He said the biggest issue is boredom. It's boredom, boredom, boredom, only rarely does anything happen. So accidents are more of an issue than attacks which never happened in the 4 yrs this guy did the job.
I imagine it's the same for most civilian cops. 90% of the time, nothing happens. I'd guess that, and this is probably shocking if you only watch faux news, that cops are not under assault 24/7 365 by Antifa.
Let me point out again, that though I may be arguing from a political point of view and using the numbers to push that point of view, the numbers themselves are agnostic.
The reason we use statistics over "common sense" is because anyone can say anything is "common sense." At which someone somebody can say anything else is "common sense."
Comments
As of sanctions - they are still here, right? Though, business did not stop as it never stopped before Trump.
@Artona Did I get you right and you suspect Wikileaks to be a Russian company?
But I rest my case - media did their job. Just say "Russians" and be done with it, nobody would suspect any play.
Of course not. After all, history knows no example of government trying to discredit other government by using proxies. I mean, it's not like government are using propaganda, and spies, and agents. ^^
Ah, the ageless "HURR DURR SHEEPLE OPEN YOUR EYES!" classic.
And in any way, what does it has to do with the fact that when Wikileaks publishes something, it uses solid documented evidences? Unlike politicians or "journalists" with their "believes" and "feelings".
What about son of President of US, who releases his emails? Are those "beliefs", or "feelings"? Are you saying that Trump sharing intel from Israel with Ławrow is someone's "belief"? Is it someone's "feeling"?
Well, I never said that, regardless that you *believe* I did. What I said was What we consider a fact is a matter of belief. .
There is pretty obvious difference, and it does not lie in semantics.
And supposedly Trump is probably going to dump on us again on Friday this time he'll cancel DACA. Maybe some guys will quit too or get fired.
He likes to screw things up on Fridays.
"We Only Kill Black People,’ Police Officer Says During Traffic Stop
“But you’re not black,” Lieutenant Abbott replies. “Remember, we only kill black people. Yeah. We only kill black people, right?”
There is a myth that policing is uniquely dangerous. It isn't. Here is a list of jobs that are MORE dangerous, none of which come with the perk of total power over other citizens and the right to carry and use a gun. Numbers after the profession are deaths/100,000:
Fishermen: 128.9
Logging workers: 116.7
Aircraft pilots: 72.4
Iron and steelworkers: 46.4
Farmers and ranchers: 39.5
Garbage collectors: 36.8
Roofers: 34.4
Electrical power line installation/repair: 29.8
Truck drivers: 22.8
Oil and gas extraction: 21.9
Taxi drivers: 19.3
Drinking establishment employees: 17.0
Construction workers: 16.0
Police and deputies: 15.6
It is more dangerous to be a taxi driver or bartender in America than a cop. These numbers are from 2010, but the dynamics of the professions seem unlikely to have changed much if at all in the last 7 years.
Are you having a go at this "sarcastic" thing, Oh you. You almost got me.
Here is the data from 4 years later. The bartender number is still basically the same, the police number actually went DOWN by 5:
https://qz.com/410585/garbage-collectors-are-more-likely-to-die-on-the-job-than-police-patrol-officers/
You do understand what a Peace Officer has to go through on a daily basis? Just at an ANTIFA rally they are putting themselves in harms way.
The next time you are in trouble don't call the Police, call a Cab instead. Based on that argument of course.
Arguing about the psychological effect police work has on cops isn't part of my argument, nor is it one I am sympathetic to. They signed up for the job. And DESPITE what they have to witness or deal with on a daily basis, the job still isn't as dangerous as it is made out to be. Your argument boils down to "well that just can't possibly be true". But it is true. I presented data to back up that claim. You are presenting feelings. Those studies weren't done and compiled simply so someone like me could use them in an argument. They weren't compiled to smear cops. They are just numbers related to occupational fatalities. They don't have an agenda.
Now i've only done the most cursory check but from what I've seen their data is thought to be fairly accurate, if based on somewhat small sample sizes. That said, looking at a few other years, I've seen no reason to dismiss the numbers jjstraka brought to our attention as statistical artifacts, since while police always seem to get a fairly high number of injuries, both fatal and non, I haven't yet seen them top any yearly chart.
http://www.nanalyze.com/2016/12/sarcos-robots-dangerous-jobs/
Fatal traffic accidents and easy robbery targets increase their numbers drastically.
"Drinking Established Employees" should actually be read as "bouncers" not bartenders, who are tasked with dealing with rowdy and unruly patrons with less protection than police. One concealed knife or broken bottle it's game over.
As @Chnapy says you don't need to rely on common sense to review those statistics. However, even if you were using just common sense I don't find the statistics surprising. You mention being at an ANTIFA rally as an example of something very dangerous, but have there ever been any deaths of police at such rallies? I suspect not and, more generally, consider the news coverage that occurs whenever a policeman is killed in the line of duty. That tends to be national coverage and is normally marked by special services - and the reason for that is precisely because it's a very unusual event. There are consistently over 30,000 deaths a year in the US as a result of traffic accidents, so any given accident is unlikely to be major news. In 2015 there were a total of 85 police and sheriffs deaths at work in the US (I haven't checked the figures behind that, but past experience tells me that probably half of those are car accidents).
The idea that police need to fear for their lives on a daily basis is simply a myth. That doesn't mean they don't face challenges and need to be careful, but that applies to many occupations. Both in terms of death and serious injury being a policeman is roughly as dangerous as being a general construction worker.
When at family gatherings the deputy's have agreed they would not do the roughneck's job for love nor money (alot!).
When younger I also lived in a part of a big(er) city that cabbies were being murdered for the little money they had on them.
Personally, I wouldn't want any of their jobs after hearing from them about what they face or have faced on a yearly basis.
I think for law enforcement, the media gives much more coverage compared to these other jobs as it seems to stand out to folks more in general.
When I was in Public Health, I attended a yearly state conference that presented a study that showed the biggest risk of heart attacks actually went to firemen. IIRC it had something to do with stress, being on standby and immediately going to red alert status, over and over again, from home/work to truck, to arriving on scene. Made sense at the time I recall.
Another important note is that the biggest source of officer fatalities are traffic accidents--the last number I saw was pegged these at greater than 80%.
I imagine it's the same for most civilian cops. 90% of the time, nothing happens. I'd guess that, and this is probably shocking if you only watch faux news, that cops are not under assault 24/7 365 by Antifa.