Since the nurse hasn't pressed charges against the officer, he can not be arrested.
That didn't sound right to me as in the UK criminal charges are brought by the state and not the individual. A bit of Googling confirmed that's the same in the US, i.e. a person can absolutely be arrested and charged irrespective of whether a victim wishes to 'press charges'. In some types of cases, e.g. domestic violence, that situation is not at all unusual. In other types of cases it would be unusual as without willing testimony from a victim the prospects for conviction may be poor. However, that's not the case here - there are multiple witnesses and very clear video evidence.
In Detroit they're now making it illegal for police to engage in high-speed chases with perps who haven't commited a felony. That's due to a cop who tasered a 15 year old kid trying to evade a police pursuit on an ATV. The kid died as a result of the crash and Jeffery Feiger has taken the case. The City is likely to lose millions of dollars as a result and it's not like Detroit is swimming in excess cash. Things are slowly changing...
The risk/reward ratio of most of these high-speed chases has always seemed completely out of whack, unless you are trying to catch a serial murderer or rapist who you have reason to believe could strike again if left free for any amount of time. Call me crazy, but I feel like this is the Hollywood myth of policing seeping into the actual culture more than anything else. Most people's idea of law enforcement seems to come from some combination of "Law and Order" and various Stallone movies. It seems to me that society has internalized this.
It makes sense. Thinking back to the high speed chases I've seen on TV, it seems like a high speed chase is more likely to kill somebody than a non-felon criminal. Probably better to rely on road blocks and the police's superior communication and monitoring resources.
To play devil's advocate, then what you guys are saying is that all you need to get away with a crime is a really fast motorcycle.
Cutting off escape routes and laying spike traps would be a safer alternative. The communications and resources available to law enforcement, it shouldn't be more effective than high speed pursuit.
The problem is that cops no longer see drug dealing, murder, or rape as the major crimes in this country. The worst crime you can be guilty of in America in 2017 is disrespecting a police officer. It isn't illegal, but by god, cops are going to MAKE it illegal.
If you dig deeper, the story is potentially even worse. The person in the hospital they wanted the blood sample from was the VICTIM (by way of a traffic collision) of a target of a high-speed pursuit the police were engaged in. It's being speculated among many people that they wanted the blood of the unconscious patient so they could potentially find something in his system to absolve the police of blame for a dangerous chase they shouldn't have even been engaged in. The reason he was so pissed is that the blood sample itself was a likely avenue for a cover-up being shut down.
Why would any departments engage in a high-speed pursuit in the first place? If the suspect is getting away in a car, send out the helicopter. Yes, you have to pursue on the ground until the helicopter can get there but it doesn't have to be at death-defying speeds, putting everyone in danger including the officers engaged in the pursuit. This does not absolve the suspect, of course, who is probably wanted for (or in the middle of doing something) an offense worse than whatever traffic incdient sparked the pursuit in the first place.
Did we already mention the DoJ and police departments wanting to bring back asset forfeiture?
The problem is that cops no longer see drug dealing, murder, or rape as the major crimes in this country. The worst crime you can be guilty of in America in 2017 is disrespecting a police officer. It isn't illegal, but by god, cops are going to MAKE it illegal.
If you dig deeper, the story is potentially even worse. The person in the hospital they wanted the blood sample from was the VICTIM (by way of a traffic collision) of a target of a high-speed pursuit the police were engaged in. It's being speculated among many people that they wanted the blood of the unconscious patient so they could potentially find something in his system to absolve the police of blame for a dangerous chase they shouldn't have even been engaged in. The reason he was so pissed is that the blood sample itself was a likely avenue for a cover-up being shut down.
Why would any departments engage in a high-speed pursuit in the first place? If the suspect is getting away in a car, send out the helicopter. Yes, you have to pursue on the ground until the helicopter can get there but it doesn't have to be at death-defying speeds, putting everyone in danger including the officers engaged in the pursuit. This does not absolve the suspect, of course, who is probably wanted for (or in the middle of doing something) an offense worse than whatever traffic incdient sparked the pursuit in the first place.
Did we already mention the DoJ and police departments wanting to bring back asset forfeiture?
We should mention it often. It's not that they are bringing it back, it's that Sessions wants to EXPAND it. Civil asset forfeiture, for those that don't know, is probably one of the most ridiculous things going on in this country right now. It boils down to this: if you are simply ACCUSED or even SUSPECTED of a crime, police can confiscate any property they believe could have helped commission that crime. If you are exonerated, you STILL don't get your property back unless you go through a byzantine legal procedure, which most people can't afford (which is what they are counting on). The definitive examination of this was done by John Oliver, and everyone simply must watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks
Fishermen: 128.9 Logging workers: 116.7 Aircraft pilots: 72.4 Iron and steelworkers: 46.4 Farmers and ranchers: 39.5 Garbage collectors: 36.8 Roofers: 34.4 Electrical power line installation/repair: 29.8 Truck drivers: 22.8 Oil and gas extraction: 21.9 Taxi drivers: 19.3 Drinking establishment employees: 17.0 Construction workers: 16.0 Police and deputies: 15.6
I can see all those except the garbage collectors and pilots.
Fishermen, loggers, steelworkers, high-voltage electrical line workers, oil workers, farmers, roofers, construction workers, truckers. All those are jobs where a moment's inattention will KILL YOU through a fall, or have something fall on you, or be driven into you (literally for truckers), or get mangled in machinery. You have to be on the ball every minute, even every second.
Take logging. You might be hanging 50 feet in the air in a tree by rope (better hope you're good at knots, I'm knot). You cut wrong, even if you're on the ground and a limb or the entire tree might snap wrong and kill you when it falls on you or you fall out of the tree. They don't look it, but trees are heavy and dense and under a lot of stresses.
As others pointed out, taxi drivers and drinking establishment employees are at risk for lethal assault.
Which leaves pilots and garbage collectors. I just don't see those two. Maybe the garbage collector, I don't know enough about waste collection once the garbage truck leaves the streets after having collected all the garbage from the bins, I see nothing dangerous about that.. Perhaps the danger comes from unloading the garbage truck.\
As for pilot. ??? Possibly increased heart attack/stroke risks from job stress plus the physiology of flight? It sure isn't crashing planes, there's not enough crashes for that.
The only reason other forumites have chimed in with their opinions is because of the use of ANTIFA in my post. From that we have Oil rig employees and peace officers in the military. lol
I totally agree with your right to researching and posting the data, I implore you in the future to use common sense. That trumps (see what I did there) any and all data.
To say that an officers job is less dangerous than X. It's because of training and following that training to the letter is why the fatality numbers are lower. Bouncers and construction workers die due to misfortune or unfortunate events. Construction deaths are based off of insufficient training and cheap labor. Bouncers deaths come from the mixture of alcohol and testosterone. Officer's training is based on misfortune, unfortunate events, alcohol and testosterone.
WTF is this post.
“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” -Sherlock Holmes
Construction is inherently a dangerous environment. You got heavy machinery, power tools that can slice through a limb in less than a second, large and HEAVY objects that sometimes have to be moved into place by hand (a wood 8'x4' panel 1" thick weighs approximately 100 lb). And you might be at least 15 feet off the ground (or likely more for anything bigger than a house), which is plenty high enough to break a limb (or neck) if you slip and fall.
No training can help with that. It just has to be put up with to do the job.
Again, if someone believes that, being a bouncer is more dangerous of a profession than being a peace officer, they should seek professional help. I mean that in the most caring, compassionate and sincere way.
I'm curious why you feel being a bouncer is a safe job.
You've got to deal with drunken louts on a daily basis.
As for pilot. ??? Possibly increased heart attack/stroke risks from job stress plus the physiology of flight? It sure isn't crashing planes, there's not enough crashes for that.
I think these studies are compatible. What I suggest is going on is that being an airline pilot is generally a stressful job - but is being carried out by a group selected for being in good health. Therefore you don't see a relationship with early mortality in younger pilots. Once the pilots have retired the fact that they are generally in good health means they tend to live longer in retirement.
However, for active pilots close to retirement the stresses of the job are sometimes too much for bodies without the adaptability of youth - resulting in comparatively high death rates.
The mortality statistics are thus showing very different things for different occupations. For pilots, deaths are mainly a result of aging - in contrast to something like logging for instance. The apparent spike in deaths pre-retirement does cast a bit of doubt on the adequacy of the current system of medicals for pilots though.
Not all pilots pilot large passenger aircraft. Crop dusting iirc is extremely dangerous due to the necessity of staying at a low altitude. Airliners are pretty safe/reliable, but smaller non-corporate aircraft are notoriously prone to failure; I suspect its because the longer an aircraft is in the air, the more maintanence it requires per flight hour, and people aren't always thorough enough on maintaining/repairs. At a certain point you're actually supposed to scrap whats left due to fatigue concerns.
Also obvious, if an aircraft fails its a fast moving projectile not designed to impact anything ever.
For garbage collecting, for one you're handling dangerous goods daily, around pretty significant machinery. You also are in traffic (even side streets have traffic), and garbage collection is cardio-vascularly demanding.
The reason pilot is probably so high is because of crop-dusting. I'm not sure how much people see it in other parts of the country, but they fly absurdly low to the ground when they drop the chemicals, to the point where it can be measured in feet. Accidents are not that uncommon. My friend's sister's husband had a mentor who was killed while crop-dusting.
The reason pilot is probably so high is because of crop-dusting. I'm not sure how much people see it in other parts of the country, but they fly absurdly low to the ground when they drop the chemicals, to the point where it can be measured in feet. Accidents are not that uncommon. My friend's sister's husband had a mentor who was killed while crop-dusting.
I agree that's a contributory factor, but it's by no means the whole story. This study uses data from the Bureau of Labour Statistics on death I referred to in an earlier post, showing 141 pilots died in agricultural accidents in the period 1992-2001. That's less than 15% of the overall pilot fatalities recorded in the BLS figures.
Sorry - I should have been clearer. Technically all police are civilians and hence are included in the BLS numbers (though I know police do sometimes refer to non-police officers as civilians to confuse the issue).
Sorry - I should have been clearer. Technically all police are civilians and hence are included in the BLS numbers (though I know police do sometimes refer to non-police officers as civilians to confuse the issue).
Which is a problem in and of itself. The word "civilian" is used by police as a pejorative when discussing the public. And more proof they act far too much like the military. You give them military equipment, they'll act like and talk like occupiers.
Fishermen: 128.9 Logging workers: 116.7 Aircraft pilots: 72.4 Iron and steelworkers: 46.4 Farmers and ranchers: 39.5 Garbage collectors: 36.8 Roofers: 34.4 Electrical power line installation/repair: 29.8 Truck drivers: 22.8 Oil and gas extraction: 21.9 Taxi drivers: 19.3 Drinking establishment employees: 17.0 Construction workers: 16.0 Police and deputies: 15.6
I can see all those except the garbage collectors and pilots.
Fishermen, loggers, steelworkers, high-voltage electrical line workers, oil workers, farmers, roofers, construction workers, truckers. All those are jobs where a moment's inattention will KILL YOU through a fall, or have something fall on you, or be driven into you (literally for truckers), or get mangled in machinery. You have to be on the ball every minute, even every second.
Take logging. You might be hanging 50 feet in the air in a tree by rope (better hope you're good at knots, I'm knot). You cut wrong, even if you're on the ground and a limb or the entire tree might snap wrong and kill you when it falls on you or you fall out of the tree. They don't look it, but trees are heavy and dense and under a lot of stresses.
As others pointed out, taxi drivers and drinking establishment employees are at risk for lethal assault.
Which leaves pilots and garbage collectors. I just don't see those two. Maybe the garbage collector, I don't know enough about waste collection once the garbage truck leaves the streets after having collected all the garbage from the bins, I see nothing dangerous about that.. Perhaps the danger comes from unloading the garbage truck.\
As for pilot. ??? Possibly increased heart attack/stroke risks from job stress plus the physiology of flight? It sure isn't crashing planes, there's not enough crashes for that.
The only reason other forumites have chimed in with their opinions is because of the use of ANTIFA in my post. From that we have Oil rig employees and peace officers in the military. lol
I totally agree with your right to researching and posting the data, I implore you in the future to use common sense. That trumps (see what I did there) any and all data.
To say that an officers job is less dangerous than X. It's because of training and following that training to the letter is why the fatality numbers are lower. Bouncers and construction workers die due to misfortune or unfortunate events. Construction deaths are based off of insufficient training and cheap labor. Bouncers deaths come from the mixture of alcohol and testosterone. Officer's training is based on misfortune, unfortunate events, alcohol and testosterone.
WTF is this post.
“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” -Sherlock Holmes
Construction is inherently a dangerous environment. You got heavy machinery, power tools that can slice through a limb in less than a second, large and HEAVY objects that sometimes have to be moved into place by hand (a wood 8'x4' panel 1" thick weighs approximately 100 lb). And you might be at least 15 feet off the ground (or likely more for anything bigger than a house), which is plenty high enough to break a limb (or neck) if you slip and fall.
No training can help with that. It just has to be put up with to do the job.
Again, if someone believes that, being a bouncer is more dangerous of a profession than being a peace officer, they should seek professional help. I mean that in the most caring, compassionate and sincere way.
I'm curious why you feel being a bouncer is a safe job.
You've got to deal with drunken louts on a daily basis.
1/ I did not say being a bouncer is a safe job. Please read again. 2/ Most accidents that do happen on a construction site are because of insufficient training or laziness. Also cash jobs. Like illegal immigrants working for cash illegally and not being given the proper training and or equipment. Language is also HUGE. No communication means "Fall down , go boom head".
Little bit about myself. I was a Door Man for 13 yrs in Toronto and Montreal. Biggest and most happening clubs. If my boys and I where not seen by the customers other than the front door, we did our jobs well that night. Other nights where a different story. If there where some customers that where being a pain to the Club they would be asked politely to leave. If they agreed, we would escort them out of the Club discreetly and and calmly talk to them so there were no hard feelings and that they would return to dump their wallets in the Club the following weekend.
When things would go side ways we would coral them in place and keep them passive and compliant until.....here it comes.... the Police arrived. They would of been called the second we understood the customers who were being pricks would not listen to reason.
a/ If we get into fights every night the patrons would find a new Club to party in. Not good for business. b/ If we tore up the place every night, no more job.
Now I would estimate that 6/10 times there was an altercation the Police where called. Either in the Club or outside in the front or back alley. 100 respectable establishments do the same, that's 60 time the police are called out. Now that's also on top of the gun, knife, domestic abuse, general disorderly conduct and drunken louts calls.
Like I said previously, common sense you either have it or you don't.
I understand that a lot of people that use this forum are ANTIFA sympathizers and because of that have an anarchic mentality. Hating the police at all costs. Even if it kills them.
I hope my personal experience data is accepted by this group. I do not have any experience of piloting or of detective work. I do know how to defuse aggressive behavior.
I understand that a lot of people that use this forum are ANTIFA sympathizers and because of that have an anarchic mentality. Hating the police at all costs. Even if it kills them.
Thus far, I have yet to see anyone in this thread support or praise Antifa. The only debate we've had over Antifa is how large a movement it is, and how much damage it has caused--not whether it's good or bad.
I count one forumite who has some "anarchist" ideas, but I am not going to make assumptions about them because of it. Let's not stereotype each other as hate-filled radicals.
I do not think anyone on this forum is an Antifa sympathizer.
And yes, majority of patrons that go to bars are civilized and will leave when asked to do so, some may do more kicking and screaming but it only takes one prick who thinks his manhood was challenged. Such as this incident in San Jose http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/26/san-jose-employee-stabbed-to-death-at-tres-gringos-downtown/amp/ . Since there are less bouncers in the US compared to cops, his death skews the numbers higher for bouncers than police officers.
I also find it highly unlikely that in 10 years, you had never once used violemce to subdue or physically remove a patron from an establishment. Everytime you did that you were putting yourself at risk to injury or being killed by so.e schmo who would blindside you as you escort his buddy out. Add in US gun statistics, there would be more deaths there than in Canada even if its two of Canada's biggest cities. It also sounded like you worked in higher end clubs and not ones where gangs such as he Hell's Angels frequented regularly.
Said it before but Antifa isn't really a thing certainly not organized nationwide with a history of murder and violence that white supremacists have.
No one ever heard of them until they started to be buzzwords on fox news and alt-right news. No one has heard of them for good reason - they are not a real thing. Instead of being afraid of Antifa, why not be afraid of killer bees or white supremacists, they've actually killed people while Antifa has not.
I always smile a little when statists paint anarchists as blood-thirsty radicals. C'mon - all those home-made bomb thrown by anarchists into restaurants don't hold up for one serious massacre conducted by state.
For the record, police in the US in 2017 have killed 492x more people than Anitfa has this year. In our current climate, let's be generous and say that only 5% of those were unjustified. In that case, they have still killed 25x more people in a homicidal fashion than Antifa.
Antifa is a problem insomuch as they should be arrested if they destroy property and assault someone, similar to say, any random drunk asshole in a fight at a watering hole on a weekend, or the students at Penn State when they were pissed their football coach was fired for harboring a pedophile.
I do not think anyone on this forum is an Antifa sympathizer.
And yes, majority of patrons that go to bars are civilized and will leave when asked to do so, some may do more kicking and screaming but it only takes one prick who thinks his manhood was challenged. Such as this incident in San Jose http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/26/san-jose-employee-stabbed-to-death-at-tres-gringos-downtown/amp/ . Since there are less bouncers in the US compared to cops, his death skews the numbers higher for bouncers than police officers.
I also find it highly unlikely that in 10 years, you had never once used violemce to subdue or physically remove a patron from an establishment. Everytime you did that you were putting yourself at risk to injury or being killed by so.e schmo who would blindside you as you escort his buddy out. Add in US gun statistics, there would be more deaths there than in Canada even if its two of Canada's biggest cities. It also sounded like you worked in higher end clubs and not ones where gangs such as he Hell's Angels frequented regularly.
13 yrs and we did use violence. Not saying that I came close to seeing the type of violence that a Peace Officer sees on a hour to hour basis.
Also any establishment run or frequented by bikers is either a strip club or a drug haven. Huge difference in clientele.
I always smile a little when statists paint anarchists as blood-thirsty radicals. C'mon - all those home-made bomb thrown by anarchists into restaurants don't hold up for one serious massacre conducted by state.
I would implore you to study the destruction and terror by ANTIFA and any other group that sympathizes with them in Europe over the last three decades. Maybe that will put your smile upside down.
Said it before but Antifa isn't really a thing certainly not organized nationwide with a history of murder and violence that white supremacists have.
No one ever heard of them until they started to be buzzwords on fox news and alt-right news. No one has heard of them for good reason - they are not a real thing. Instead of being afraid of Antifa, why not be afraid of killer bees or white supremacists, they've actually killed people while Antifa has not.
Not buzz words. Anarchist groups have been around for decades. Please educate yourself on it.
Comments
Did we already mention the DoJ and police departments wanting to bring back asset forfeiture?
Fishermen, loggers, steelworkers, high-voltage electrical line workers, oil workers, farmers, roofers, construction workers, truckers. All those are jobs where a moment's inattention will KILL YOU through a fall, or have something fall on you, or be driven into you (literally for truckers), or get mangled in machinery. You have to be on the ball every minute, even every second.
Take logging. You might be hanging 50 feet in the air in a tree by rope (better hope you're good at knots, I'm knot). You cut wrong, even if you're on the ground and a limb or the entire tree might snap wrong and kill you when it falls on you or you fall out of the tree. They don't look it, but trees are heavy and dense and under a lot of stresses.
As others pointed out, taxi drivers and drinking establishment employees are at risk for lethal assault.
Which leaves pilots and garbage collectors. I just don't see those two. Maybe the garbage collector, I don't know enough about waste collection once the garbage truck leaves the streets after having collected all the garbage from the bins, I see nothing dangerous about that.. Perhaps the danger comes from unloading the garbage truck.\
As for pilot. ??? Possibly increased heart attack/stroke risks from job stress plus the physiology of flight? It sure isn't crashing planes, there's not enough crashes for that. WTF is this post.
“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
-Sherlock Holmes
Construction is inherently a dangerous environment. You got heavy machinery, power tools that can slice through a limb in less than a second, large and HEAVY objects that sometimes have to be moved into place by hand (a wood 8'x4' panel 1" thick weighs approximately 100 lb). And you might be at least 15 feet off the ground (or likely more for anything bigger than a house), which is plenty high enough to break a limb (or neck) if you slip and fall.
No training can help with that. It just has to be put up with to do the job. I'm curious why you feel being a bouncer is a safe job.
You've got to deal with drunken louts on a daily basis.
- retired airline pilots live longer than the general population
- pilots die at a younger age than the general population
I think these studies are compatible. What I suggest is going on is that being an airline pilot is generally a stressful job - but is being carried out by a group selected for being in good health. Therefore you don't see a relationship with early mortality in younger pilots. Once the pilots have retired the fact that they are generally in good health means they tend to live longer in retirement.
However, for active pilots close to retirement the stresses of the job are sometimes too much for bodies without the adaptability of youth - resulting in comparatively high death rates.
The mortality statistics are thus showing very different things for different occupations. For pilots, deaths are mainly a result of aging - in contrast to something like logging for instance. The apparent spike in deaths pre-retirement does cast a bit of doubt on the adequacy of the current system of medicals for pilots though.
Also obvious, if an aircraft fails its a fast moving projectile not designed to impact anything ever.
For garbage collecting, for one you're handling dangerous goods daily, around pretty significant machinery. You also are in traffic (even side streets have traffic), and garbage collection is cardio-vascularly demanding.
Helicopters have a much higher rate of crashes than fixed-wing aircraft.
This year also had a higher number of commercial accidents than normal.
2/ Most accidents that do happen on a construction site are because of insufficient training or laziness. Also cash jobs. Like illegal immigrants working for cash illegally and not being given the proper training and or equipment. Language is also HUGE. No communication means "Fall down , go boom head".
Little bit about myself. I was a Door Man for 13 yrs in Toronto and Montreal. Biggest and most happening clubs. If my boys and I where not seen by the customers other than the front door, we did our jobs well that night. Other nights where a different story. If there where some customers that where being a pain to the Club they would be asked politely to leave. If they agreed, we would escort them out of the Club discreetly and and calmly talk to them so there were no hard feelings and that they would return to dump their wallets in the Club the following weekend.
When things would go side ways we would coral them in place and keep them passive and compliant until.....here it comes.... the Police arrived. They would of been called the second we understood the customers who were being pricks would not listen to reason.
a/ If we get into fights every night the patrons would find a new Club to party in. Not good for business.
b/ If we tore up the place every night, no more job.
Now I would estimate that 6/10 times there was an altercation the Police where called. Either in the Club or outside in the front or back alley. 100 respectable establishments do the same, that's 60 time the police are called out. Now that's also on top of the gun, knife, domestic abuse, general disorderly conduct and drunken louts calls.
Like I said previously, common sense you either have it or you don't.
I understand that a lot of people that use this forum are ANTIFA sympathizers and because of that have an anarchic mentality. Hating the police at all costs. Even if it kills them.
I hope my personal experience data is accepted by this group. I do not have any experience of piloting or of detective work. I do know how to defuse aggressive behavior.
"Walk the mile first."
I count one forumite who has some "anarchist" ideas, but I am not going to make assumptions about them because of it. Let's not stereotype each other as hate-filled radicals.
And yes, majority of patrons that go to bars are civilized and will leave when asked to do so, some may do more kicking and screaming but it only takes one prick who thinks his manhood was challenged. Such as this incident in San Jose http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/26/san-jose-employee-stabbed-to-death-at-tres-gringos-downtown/amp/ . Since there are less bouncers in the US compared to cops, his death skews the numbers higher for bouncers than police officers.
I also find it highly unlikely that in 10 years, you had never once used violemce to subdue or physically remove a patron from an establishment. Everytime you did that you were putting yourself at risk to injury or being killed by so.e schmo who would blindside you as you escort his buddy out. Add in US gun statistics, there would be more deaths there than in Canada even if its two of Canada's biggest cities. It also sounded like you worked in higher end clubs and not ones where gangs such as he Hell's Angels frequented regularly.
No one ever heard of them until they started to be buzzwords on fox news and alt-right news. No one has heard of them for good reason - they are not a real thing. Instead of being afraid of Antifa, why not be afraid of killer bees or white supremacists, they've actually killed people while Antifa has not.
Antifa is a problem insomuch as they should be arrested if they destroy property and assault someone, similar to say, any random drunk asshole in a fight at a watering hole on a weekend, or the students at Penn State when they were pissed their football coach was fired for harboring a pedophile.
Also any establishment run or frequented by bikers is either a strip club or a drug haven. Huge difference in clientele.