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  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    Graham/Cassidy will not come to a vote. This is the 4th time this year the Republicans have launched an all-out effort to repeal Obamacare and failed. Since it isn't coming up for a vote this week, it is now safe until the end of the year, since they cannot do it by reconciliation after Sept. 31st. The effort will be back next year. How many times are lives of those with pre-exisiting conditions and who have insurance BECAUSE of the ACA going to be held hostage and kept in limbo by these Republicans?? 6?? 12??
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,044
    edited September 2017


    The last thing we need is people throwing out accusations of trolling. We have never seen anything good come of it. The accusation itself, if issued in public, is against the Site Rules.

    You are correct--I apologize for my faux pas and you have my assurance it won't happen again.

    Human happiness is the single most important thing. And people are most happy among universal likemindedness.

    Yes it is but you cannot possibly believe that the key to happiness is "universal likemindedness". That is an impossibility because no two people are going to think exactly like each other or believe exactly the same things. The only way that could be possible would be for humans to have wetware interfaces and you "format" everyone's brain like a hard drive so that they all have the same thought processes. Of course, even if you could do that, if person A has a different experience than person B they will no longer be "like-minded" because their external experiences are different.

    *sigh* I need to go back to ignoring you--it isn't worth the effort to prove that your assertions are incorrect when tangible, real-world evidence is sufficient to that task.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    The latest GOP health care bill has been withdrawn. I forget how many times this has happened over the past 8 months.

    Saudi Arabia is lifting the ban on women driving. It will come into effect in June 2018.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    The Pentagon has now confirmed that over 40% of Puerto Rico doesn't have clean drinking water. That is 1.2 MILLION people. Meanwhile, their Commander in Chief is on TV saying that Puerto Rico is an island, and that the ocean is very big, sounding for all the world like he was JUST informed of these facts in the last 24 hrs. And of course, he was bragging about how good the response has been. Insane.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,044
    So...the residents of Puerto Rico are supposed to head down to the ocean, collect a couple of gallon jugs of water, carry it all the way back to their residence, set up a campfire, filter the water though a clean shirt to remove particulate matter, then boil the water for consumption? Two or three times each day? Every day until things get back to normal? Even the people who live miles away from the ocean?

    This is Puerto Rico, not Gilligan's Island--there is no Professor to make a convenient pulley system out of coconuts, bamboo, and rope to facilitate the collection of water and not everyone lives within walking distance of the beach.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017

    So...the residents of Puerto Rico are supposed to head down to the ocean, collect a couple of gallon jugs of water, carry it all the way back to their residence, set up a campfire, filter the water though a clean shirt to remove particulate matter, then boil the water for consumption? Two or three times each day? Every day until things get back to normal? Even the people who live miles away from the ocean?

    This is Puerto Rico, not Gilligan's Island--there is no Professor to make a convenient pulley system out of coconuts, bamboo, and rope to facilitate the collection of water and not everyone lives within walking distance of the beach.

    I think he was offering it mostly as an excuse for why the response hasn't been faster, but even that is a ridiculous statement from someone who controls the most powerful military in the history of humanity. We have the power, wealth, and capability to take care of this. What we lack is the will from the top.

    Come to think of it, your take on his comments actually stands at least a 50/50 chance of being his actual mindset, which i had never even considered.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017
    I just learned something about Colin Kapernick's initial start of these protests I didn't even know. He initially started them by sitting on the bench during the anthem. A friend of his on the team, who was a military veteran, told him that there was a more respectful way he could make his statement, by taking a knee instead. Kapernick immediately adapted this gesture instead. That's right, a veteran, who conservatives in this country CLAIM to be going to bat for in this controversy, is the one who suggested Kapernick take a knee. Which he adapted as a show of respect to his friend. Which makes the entire narrative on the right about this subject fall apart at the seams.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,964
    So Jeff Sessions held a rally er gave some kind of speech at Georgetown college today. He rallied against college campuses as "an echo chamber of political correctness and homogeneous thought, a shelter for fragile egos." It sure sounds like he's referring to Trumps ego.

    But anyway, Jeff Sessions, free speech warrior, was too fragile to say this to the whole campus. Only carefully curated members of a certain conservative group were allowed in to hear this message from his echo chamber of homogeneous thought, everyone else was excluded from the free speech speech.

    Remember this is the same Jeff Sessions that is vigorously prosecuting a woman who laughed during his confirmation hearing seeking prison time. This is the same Jeff Sessions that opposes free speech from NFL players.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017

    So Jeff Sessions held a rally er gave some kind of speech at Georgetown college today. He rallied against college campuses as "an echo chamber of political correctness and homogeneous thought, a shelter for fragile egos." It sure sounds like he's referring to Trumps ego.

    But anyway, Jeff Sessions, free speech warrior, was too fragile to say this to the whole campus. Only carefully curated members of a certain conservative group were allowed in to hear this message from his echo chamber of homogeneous thought, everyone else was excluded from the free speech speech.

    Remember this is the same Jeff Sessions that is vigorously prosecuting a woman who laughed during his confirmation hearing seeking prison time. This is the same Jeff Sessions that opposes free speech from NFL players.

    The NFL situation is an actual free speech issue because it involves the government (the HEAD of the government) trying to silence dissent through intimidation tactics. The right has been screaming for the last 18 months that no one has a right to be offended about anything, that everyone just needs to suck it up. Essentially "f**k your feelings" as the famous shirt from the Trump rally says. Now they are losing their minds over mild, silent protests during the national anthem. I'm sorry, but Trump supporters have lost the right to claim they are offended about anything. Their entire poltical movement is based on their right to offend others, as loudly and proudly as possible.

    What do you suppose is a bigger threat to free speech: a college campus that may receive federal funding caught in a no-win situation in regards to student safety due to situations beyond their control thanks to deliberate provocations by right-wing provocateurs, or the President of the United States calling for people to be fired if they don't uphold a loyalty oath??
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371

    Technically, yes, Puerto Rico borrowed all that money and thus, legally, they are obligated to repay it. Had they been a State, though, they would not have been forced into that position and they wouldn't be having their current economic problems. I have been advocating for Puerto Rican Statehood for 10 years now (admittedly, on other boards but it has been an idea I have been supporting for that long).

    edit/add

    What we need is a mass-movement that brings the whole of the American populace, in totality, into a unified whole. To radically collectivise the nation, through mass-action and hyper-democracy, into a single-party, democratically centralized State, in which the Leader is the manifestation of the mass-sentiment of working class elements.

    So essentially you want a form of socialism, a system of social organization based on the collective ownership of the means of production and distribution, and you want to achieve this via a socialist party which incorporates the entire nation, yes? Some sort of a national socialist party, right?

    I suspected from some of your previous posts that you were just trolling; with this post, I have the proof I need.


    But understand that national socialism isn't socialism at all, but a uniquely German manifestation of fascism (which added racism, German mysticism and esoteric/occult elements). But if I were a fascist, it certainly wouldn't be Hitler's perversion of it (which Mussolini repeatedly disavowed before being forced to eventually accept due to military reliance on Nazi Germany).

    In reality, I am nothing - or at least as an individual i am nothing. And certainly neither fascistic or communistic. But if this forum hasn't already figured it out, I am an absolute collectivist, and for good reason which we've poured over again and again...and both communism and Mussolinean/Gentilean fascism (Fasci means "bundle") are revolutionary collectivist ideologies (the two major ones we've had in the modern era) that stress the good of society over that of the individual... and while often on opposite ends of the spectrum, there are good and bad ideas inherent in both (provided we are talking about the fascism that evolved out of Sorelian national syndicalism and the communism espoused by Lenin).

    Yes, I believe in hyper-democracy (which would spell the destruction of republicanism and representative democracy), as well as either social ownership of capital and the means that produce it, or at least some kind of by proxy control of it, by a dominant, all-encompassing, centralized State, driven by the social apparati upon which the totality of the human existence (in our country) rests.

    Human happiness is the single most important thing. And people are most happy among universal likemindedness.
    That isn't happiness, that's living in fantasy land. Aren't people most happy when they're high on heroin for the first time? Is that what we should strive for? Universal likemindedness is the pasture for sheep!
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,964
    edited September 2017
    I agree with Balrog99 universal likemindedness is an impossible thing. Even more homogeneous societies have factions that compete to distinguish between each other.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371

    I agree with Balrog99 universal likemindedness is an impossible thing. Even more homogeneous societies have factions that compete to distinguish between each other.

    Exactly why nobody fits in a neat little box @smeagolheart. I think I offered @jjstraka34 a beer if he was ever in the Detroit area. I'd extend the same courtesy to you if you ever want to take me up in it. I don't often agree with you two but you're both very interesting...
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    Balrog99 said:

    I agree with Balrog99 universal likemindedness is an impossible thing. Even more homogeneous societies have factions that compete to distinguish between each other.

    Exactly why nobody fits in a neat little box @smeagolheart. I think I offered @jjstraka34 a beer if he was ever in the Detroit area. I'd extend the same courtesy to you if you ever want to take me up in it. I don't often agree with you two but you're both very interesting...
    Hit me up if you're ever in Western Minnesota or Eastern North Dakota. The chances of me getting to Detroit anytime soon are slim, but you never know.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017
    This story IS actually kind of horrifying, and makes me wonder if we are simply too dumb to survive as a country:
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    edited September 2017
    I have family in Detroit Lakes and I may be heading out that way with my dad next summer. Is that in your neighborhood at all? I was born in Moorhead btw.

    I also have Thielen on my fantasy team!
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017
    Balrog99 said:

    I have family in Detroit Lakes and I may be heading out that way with my dad next summer. Is that in your neighborhood at all? I was born in Moorhead btw.

    Get out of town.....Moorhead?? Yeah, Detroit Lakes and Moorhead are exactly what I would consider my neighborhood. Anywhere from Fergus Falls to Fargo was home at one time or another.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    My dad went to Concordia, my mom graduated from Moorhead State. They met in college. Both wound up teachers in rural Michigan. He was Lutheran, she was Catholic. Both are Pentecostal now. Therein lies most of my confusion and my scepticism. That and an education in the sciences at Michigan Tech!
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017
    Balrog99 said:

    My dad went to Concordia, my mom graduated from Moorhead State. They met in college. Both wound up teachers in rural Michigan. He was Lutheran, she was Catholic. Both are Pentecostal now. Therein lies most of my confusion and my scepticism. That and an education in the sciences at Michigan Tech!

    Well, of course he was Lutheran if he was a Cobber lol....also probably still paying off his college loans. I went to Moorhead State for a couple years, didn't finish because of life events.

    Theilen has been a nice surprise, but having Lucy pull the football out from underneath you 3 or 4 times in regards to the Vikings since 1998 has led me to force myself to not care a 1/10th as much as I used to for my own sanity. I was in high school during the '98 NFC Championship Game and I actually trashed my own bedroom in rage afterwards.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    My dad was a basketball star so I don't think it took him long to pay off his college loans. Haven't been out that way for decades. My mom kind of turned her back on her family for various reasons and her side is from DL. My dads family is from the Duluth area. His mom wanted him to go to a Lutheran school. Used to duck hunt in Richville area with my cousin for years but as you said, life events intervened...
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    Well where the Vikings are concerned, I was in college when they got screwed out of a Superbowl because they didn't take their scab team seriously during the '87 strike season. Who 'dat going to beat them Saints? The Vikings! Unfortunately, the extra game they had to play because they were wild card did them in...
  • StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654
    edited September 2017
    Universal likemindeness is just a phrase I used - I don't mean it would be perfect or absolute. Do I really have to point out the obvious fact that people will always differ and disagree in little ways?

    It is a fact - and you can ask any social scientist - that people are most happy when among people who share the same appreciations and the same prejudices as they do. It's why there aren't that many true "swing states" - indeed, American states are often either majority to completely democratic or the other way around, and in the case of these swing-states, if not on the State level, then on the county/regional level even...this dynamic is just as great in other countries.

    It's why blacks vote one way, whites another, hispanics another. It's not because we are radically different in our application of thought, but in our experiences and among our own peers.

    To have your own values and beliefs, shared appreciations and prejudices espoused from on high is the singular motivational element in political human consciousness. It's why people vote, people protest, people riot, the cause for civil war, and so much other even in instances of having no direct personal involvement. It's not because they themselves have been discriminated against that black players take a knee or raise a fist in sporting events; it's not because they themselves have gotten abortions or plan to that many women are radically pro-choice; and it's not because they are forced to marry people of the same sex that people have fought (and still fight) same-sex marriage in western societies.

    The human social animal has an overwhelming need for acceptance and solidarity with his peers. When this is removed it leads only to chaos, perpetual disorder, and even outright violence. And it's what capitalism uses against us in order to keep us divided so that they can continue raking in the $$$.

    Hyper-democracy is a way to directly involve all members of a society into the functioning of the State, each comfortably within their own specific roles. Corporations, along with the entire private sector, are organized into syndicates (or national corporations) are forced to bring their product in line with the needs of the State, subservient to the needs of the national community. You can make your millions (but not billions), but the second you place profit and the needs of the shareholder above the needs of the State, We the People will come in and forcibly shut you down. Anything absolutely vital to the functioning of the state and/or the health of the people is immediately nationalized/socialized and made permanent organs of the State. People and corporate heads are required to work together, one with another, together towards strict adherence to the "cause". They are forced to pay their employees a livable wage with benefits, and prices are capped by the State for the good of the national community.

    Everyone takes part, everyone constitutes a part of the "body", working in their own function for the good of all, and to introduce their ideas so long as they work through the People's State and NEVER outside it or against it (in which case they are shut down).

    This is called "cooporativism", and the mechanization that makes it work is akin to "democratic centralism". Diversity in thought but unity in action. The best way to describe it is this way:



    The organic notion of the corporate state was frequently expressed through the human body metaphor. The Corporate State, stated by Mosley, envisaged a nation organised as the human body, every part fulfills it's function as a member of the whole, performing it's separate task, and yet, by performing it, contributing to the welfare of the whole.

    It's a bold, radical conception; to organize human society as the human body. Every element of society, be it personal or corporate, having their part to play in conjunction with the whole, and always, always for the good and glory of the one (the people and their State).

    Everyone wants to be a part of something bigger than themselves. It's a human need, and this need is the sole reason for things such as religion, as well as irreligion (as a movement). Such a system takes the best aspects of capitalism and combines it with the best aspects of socialism - we can have our proverbial cake and eat it, too. While everyone is among like minds and feel as though they are part of something bigger than themselves, within their respective parts, working in conjunction with the whole, for the perpetual advancement of the humanity and their State.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    edited September 2017

    Universal likemindeness is just a phrase I used - I don't mean it would be perfect or absolute. Do I really have to point out the obvious fact that people will always differ and disagree in little ways?

    It is a fact - and you can ask any social scientist - that people are most happy when among people who share the same appreciations and the same prejudices as they do. It's why there aren't that many true "swing states" - indeed, American states are often either majority to completely democratic or the other way around, and in the case of these swing-states, if not on the State level, then on the county/regional level even...this dynamic is just as great in other countries.

    It's why blacks vote one way, whites another, hispanics another. It's not because we are radically different in our application of thought, but in our experiences and among our own peers.

    To have your own values and beliefs, shared appreciations and prejudices espoused from on high is the singular motivational element in political human consciousness. It's why people vote, people protest, people riot, the cause for civil war, and so much other even in instances of having no direct personal involvement. It's not because they themselves have been discriminated against that black players take a knee or raise a fist in sporting events; it's not because they themselves have gotten abortions or plan to that many women are radically pro-choice; and it's not because they are forced to marry people of the same sex that people have fought (and still fight) same-sex marriage in western societies.

    The human social animal has an overwhelming need for acceptance and solidarity with his peers. When this is removed it leads only to chaos, perpetual disorder, and even outright violence. And it's what capitalism uses against us in order to keep us divided so that they can continue raking in the $$$.

    Hyper-democracy is a way to directly involve all members of a society into the functioning of the State, each comfortably within their own specific roles. Corporations, along with the entire private sector, are organized into syndicates (or national corporations) are forced to bring their product in line with the needs of the State, subservient to the needs of the national community. You can make your millions (but not billions), but the second you place profit and the needs of the shareholder above the needs of the State, We the People will come in and forcibly shut you down. Anything absolutely vital to the functioning of the state and/or the health of the people is immediately nationalized/socialized and made permanent organs of the State. People and corporate heads are required to work together, one with another, together towards strict adherence to the "cause". They are forced to pay their employees a livable wage with benefits, and prices are capped by the State for the good of the national community.

    Everyone takes part, everyone constitutes a part of the "body", working in their own function for the good of all, and to introduce their ideas so long as they work through the People's State and NEVER outside it or against it (in which case they are shut down).

    This is called "cooporativism", and the mechanization that makes it work is akin to "democratic centralism". Diversity in thought but unity in action. The best way to describe it is this way:



    The organic notion of the corporate state was frequently expressed through the human body metaphor. The Corporate State, stated by Mosley, envisaged a nation organised as the human body, every part fulfills it's function as a member of the whole, performing it's separate task, and yet, by performing it, contributing to the welfare of the whole.

    It's a bold, radical conception; to organize human society as the human body. Every element of society, be it personal or corporate, having their part to play in conjunction with the whole, and always, always for the good and glory of the one (the people and their State).

    Everyone wants to be a part of something bigger than themselves. It's a human need, and this need is the sole reason for things such as religion, as well as irreligion (as a movement). Such a system takes the best aspects of capitalism and combines it with the best aspects of socialism - we can have our proverbial cake and eat it, too. While everyone is among like minds and feel as though they are part of something bigger than themselves, within their respective parts, working in conjunction with the whole, for the perpetual advancement of the humanity and their State.

    @Stormvessel

    I'll give you a reluctant 'insightful' on this one. Everybody has unique talents and a system that builds on the uniqueness of people rather than trying to make everybody the same is one I would vote for wholeheartedly. Leaders ought not to think of themselves as better than those who they lead. The unfortunate part is that uniqueness is not valued for the most part. I'm an analytical chemist. I don't think of myself as better than an electrician or a plumber but society does by and large, even if those artisans make more money than me. We need doctors, lawyers and even, God forbid, politicians. The amount of dedication required to be good at those professions make them more valuable. I'm old enough to know that many qualified people wouldn't pursue the more difficult professions if they weren't rewarded accordingly. What exactly would you propose to replace that?
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017
    Theocratic nutjob Roy Moore is almost certainly going to win the Republican primary for Senate tonight in Alabama. I have no idea why Trump tied himself to Luther Strange (who sounds like a comic book character) , but I have to assume he doesn't have anyone in the White House feeding him poll numbers. Or maybe he just wants an excuse to stick it to Mitch McConnell tomorrow and this is a perfect situation where he can assign him blame.

    Regardless, Roy Moore is going to be the Republican candidate for Senate. And he thinks homosexuality should be illegal. That is only the tip of the iceberg with this guy (he is also an unrepentant birther), but just think about that for one minute. One of the two major parties in this country is going to end up fielding a candidate for Senate who thinks gay people should be JAILED if they engage in consensual sexual activity.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371

    Theocratic nutjob Roy Moore is almost certainly going to win the Republican primary for Senate tonight in Alabama. I have no idea why Trump tied himself to Luther Strange (who sounds like a comic book character) , but I have to assume he doesn't have anyone in the White House feeding him poll numbers. Or maybe he just wants an excuse to stick it to Mitch McConnell tomorrow and this is a perfect situation where he can assign him blame.

    Regardless, Roy Moore is going to be the Republican candidate for Senate. And he thinks homosexuality should be illegal. That is only the tip of the iceberg with this guy (he is also an unrepentant birther), but just think about that for one minute. One of the two major parties in this country is going to end up fielding a candidate for Senate who thinks gay people should be JAILED if they engage in consensual sexual activity.

    The unfortunate thing is that people have to make decisions based on more than one view of the person they're voting for. That's because of the idiotic two party system we're stuck with. You don't have to agree with everything your representative stands for, just more than the only other side...
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017
    How can the Administration possibly be taking this stance?? Even for them this is just so brazen. From Reuters:

    The Trump administration on Tuesday denied a request to waive shipping restrictions to help get fuel and supplies to storm-ravaged Puerto Rico, saying it would do nothing to address the island’s main impediment to shipping, damaged ports.

    The Jones Act limits shipping between coasts to U.S. flagged vessels. However, in the wake of brutal storms, the government has occasionally issued temporary waivers to allow the use of cheaper, tax free, or more readily available foreign flagged ships.

    The Department of Homeland Security, which waived the act after hurricanes Harvey and Irma, did not agree an exemption would help this time.


    I think this is a GREAT time to mention the fact that Donald Trump and his sons had a golf course in Puerto Rico....that went.....wait for it.....bankrupt. And he left Puerto Rico holding the bag for $33 million in losses. I would not put it past this man to stick it to the entire island in a humanitarian crisis because he feels the island of Puerto Rico is responsible for his failure.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    It might be time for Puerto Rico to declare independence. I doubt Trump would stop them. Having territories seems so colonial. 51st state has never been their only option. Unfortunately, we might not leave on terms of friendship after this...
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017
    Balrog99 said:

    It might be time for Puerto Rico to declare independence. I doubt Trump would stop them. Having territories seems so colonial. 51st state has never been their only option. Unfortunately, we might not leave on terms of friendship after this...

    It's going to take years to even get up off the mat after this. From what I understand nearly 80% of their crops have been destroyed. Also:
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    Wouldn't bother me if we got rid of that stupid law. Curious as to why I've never heard of it before now though. Democrats have been in control many times since WW1. Guess it wasn't a big deal until Trump was president...
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited September 2017
    Balrog99 said:

    Wouldn't bother me if we got rid of that stupid law. Curious as to why I've never heard of it before now though. Democrats have been in control many times since WW1. Guess it wasn't a big deal until Trump was president...

    Fairly simple reason really, they aren't a State and no one (generally) thought about them before the hurricane knocked out power. We're forced to look at the issues now, but it's clear we've been screwing them with their pants on for decades.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371
    Here's my analytical wisdom. Both parties are controlled by less than 10% of the population because neither side can win without them. Complete blackmail since neither of those 10% could win shit otherwise...
This discussion has been closed.