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Politics. The feel in your country.

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  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @smeagolheart: It was 4%, but yes.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited January 2018
    deltago said:

    Meanwhile in Canada and U.S. Trade:

    A follow up to something I posted earlier last year regarding Boeing and Bombardier trade dispute. Bombardier won the ruling in the U.S. trade commission effectively canceling the close to 300% tariff.

    Not only is this a win for Canada, UK, and Alabama, it proves international businesses can not be bullied into tariffs imposed by Trump's Commerce Department. Hopefully with NAFTA failing, this sends a message to other U.S. based companies that they can not hide behind an American First policy against their International competition.

    Rest of the world is moving on in regard to trade deals and the US. Again, world leaders are not impressed by a buffoon who has no knowledge of any subject he is opining about, and no interest in learning. His tariff on solar panels is simply going to kill that growing industry in the US, and it's going to go elsewhere:

    https://psmag.com/economics/trump-tariff-causes-solar-company-to-halt-20-million-investment

    This move is to prop up dying industries like coal that can't be saved in the short or long-term, at the expense of a massive possible investment in future, sustainable energy technology.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,371

    deltago said:

    Meanwhile in Canada and U.S. Trade:

    A follow up to something I posted earlier last year regarding Boeing and Bombardier trade dispute. Bombardier won the ruling in the U.S. trade commission effectively canceling the close to 300% tariff.

    Not only is this a win for Canada, UK, and Alabama, it proves international businesses can not be bullied into tariffs imposed by Trump's Commerce Department. Hopefully with NAFTA failing, this sends a message to other U.S. based companies that they can not hide behind an American First policy against their International competition.

    Rest of the world is moving on in regard to trade deals and the US. Again, world leaders are not impressed by a buffoon who has no knowledge of any subject he is opining about, and no interest in learning. His tariff on solar panels is simply going to kill that growing industry in the US, and it's going to go elsewhere:

    https://psmag.com/economics/trump-tariff-causes-solar-company-to-halt-20-million-investment

    This move is to prop up dying industries like coal that can't be saved in the short or long-term, at the expense of a massive possible investment in future, sustainable energy technology.
    This is only true if coal is regulated. Barring regulation it's still cheap energy. If conservatives only aim is to keep energy costs down then coal is still a viable option and the U.S. will pay less for energy than the rest if the world. That's assuming they can stay in power long enough to see the result which is debatable...
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Coal remains viable, but it's becoming less competitive as time goes on and other technologies get cheaper. It's cost-effective but it's not the most profitable form of energy around.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited January 2018

    Coal remains viable, but it's becoming less competitive as time goes on and other technologies get cheaper. It's cost-effective but it's not the most profitable form of energy around.

    Solar was getting cheaper until Trump slapped a 30% import tax on it. I thought republicans were supposed to be free market not just anti environment
  • NonnahswriterNonnahswriter Member Posts: 2,520
    *pokes her head in*

    I don't know where we are in the conversation, but I have a question.

    So I'm checking my email this morning and I come across two emails sent from the White House, both exactly the same. I open one up and see this:



    Having never received an email like this before, I'm wondering:

    1. What the hell is "Resolute Reads"? Is this something started by the Trump Administration, or were these sorts of updates a thing under previous presidents too?

    2. Anyone else getting a really desperate vibe from the headline? REAL NEWS TRUMP DOESN'T WANT YOU TO MISS. Translation: "Mommy Mommy look at all the great things I did! Don't listen to those mean Fake News people! Read what I want YOU to read instead!"

    I'm mildly disturbed by the idea of the official White House email pushing certain news stories on its citizens. And by "mildly", I mean "1984" levels of disturbed.

    (Disclaimer: screenshot cropped and edited for things I don't want you to see, like my personal email and my gigantic trash bin. :P )
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Well the domain (whitehouse.gov) seems legit so that is indeed disturbing...
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,437

    1. What the hell is "Resolute Reads"? Is this something started by the Trump Administration, or were these sorts of updates a thing under previous presidents too?

    @Nonnahswriter it's just Trump's selection of stories he wants you to read - this particular bit of media massage was started in November.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    edited January 2018

    @FinneousPJ the justice system in developed countries usually depends upon how much money you have. A low-income person who gets a ticket they can't pay will likely have to show up in court, get a payment plan, then risk arrest, being put back into jail, and adding more court costs to their total if they miss even one payment. A high-income person either logs on to their high-speed Internet access to take online defensive driving or pays for the ticket with a handy debit card (some officers are equipped to accept credit card payments on the street--this is not a joke).

    Be that as it may. I am talking about the principle of It, in that the defendant need not prove innocence, but rather the it is prosecution that must prove guilt (without reasonable doubt as well)
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    edited January 2018
    Agreed. In the instance of me sneaking a straw into the restaurant, though, all the prosecution would have to demonstrate is that a) I didn't ask for a straw (no one can disprove this and so examination would attempt to determine whether or not I am a liar) and b) a straw was in my drink (I took a picture of it and the straw clearly matches straws the restaurant stocks for use...because I went there before and asked for one). Clearly, this is a stupid law that will ultimately boil down to "I said they said" and those sorts of cases are impossible to judge. No one will ever actually face a fine or jail time over it...so why bother will updating the regulations in the first place?

    Speaking of people being presumed innocent until proven guilty...the current movement of people speaking out against those whom they accuse of sexual misconduct in the past is currently putting people on trial in the Court of Public Opinion, where the accused is judged guilty until they can prove themselves innocent. I am not saying that the accusations are incorrect, of course--some of them are *definitely* correct--but all it takes to get someone fired these days is an accusation presented without evidence. I don't know where that particular path will take us, collectively, so I guess we'll find out.

    *************

    Meanwhile....this memo....this stupid, ridiculous memo....*sigh* Just release the damned thing already and be done with it. If there is nothing in it of substance, which I suspect, then there won't by any harm in releasing it and at least everyone can quit being distracted by it, allowing us to move on to *real* stories or problems which need addressing.

    Trump won his latest little battle against the FBI--Deputy Director McCabe is out from active duty; he will remain on the payroll until his actual time is up and he may retire with full benefits. This particular battle began after Trump fired Comey then apparently asked McCabe directly for whom he had voted. That was probably the only red flag McCabe needed to know that his days were numbered. A President questioning the political leanings of members of law enforcement is definitely a slippery slope--what's next, voting history screenings for all high-ranking FBI personnel to see who voted for whom?

    *************

    People protesting outside the White House, people protesting in Albania (they want the PM out because of corruption and links to organized crime), people protesting in Germany and France over Turkey's involvement in Syria (I am uncertain how protesting in Germany and France is going to influence Turkey, but I was not in charge of the protests), some people protesting the upcoming SotU Address by attending it while others are protesting it by *not* attending.... I see no shortage of people willing to speak up to make their minds heard and that is definitely a good thing.

    *************

    *laugh* goose/gander

    Russia is accusing the United States of meddling in its upcoming elections. Their presidential election is on 18 March, a contest Putin will likely win...but mostly because it is difficult--possibly even dangerous--to run against him. Anyway...this is because of a Treasury report due to Congress detailing wealthy Russian business leaders and their possible/probable links to Putin. Trump, himself, signed the bill last August authorizing the report, but I suspect he didn't really want to.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    The memo isn't meant to be released. For one thing, "the memo" is nothing but a document written by Devin Nunes and his staff. No one in Congress has less credibility than Devin Nunes. Furthermore, he purposefully included classified information in the memo so it CAN'T be released. It is meant to be waved as a perpetual cudgel, for Nunes and Congressional Republicans to go on FOX News and AM radio and yell "I know of 56 card-carrying Trump-haters in the FBI." "The memo" is a infinite blank-slate for right-wing conspiracy theories.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    The memo is purposely a "mystery box". You are supposed to be losing sleep about it. You are supposed to convince yourself of the contents.

    After all what is in it? Is it the lost tales of the Bible? Does it lay out that Obama ran wires in the White House to tape Trump? Does it solve the mysteries of the pyramids?

    For the faithful Trumpist it is definitive proof that (insert crazy conspiracy here)! If it is released it will be the Al Capones vault - "eh is that it?" reaction. We know that Devin Nunez who has been undermining the Russia probe at every step wrote it. I think he could release it, Trump definitely could release it. Who cares it is just a partisan report drawing fake conclusions. More Republican alternative facts.
  • StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654
    edited January 2018
    Is the political establishment in other countries as out of touch with the voters as American politicians are?

    I don't personally know a single voter under 40 who is either a liberal or conservative. Even the right-wingers I know, under 40, are disgusted by conservatives. Things like gay marriage are no-brainers. They believe in universal healthcare and despise tax-breaks for the wealthy.

    As for liberalism, the great majority of the democratic party is despised. It's very obvious that both liberalism and conservatism is dead. The left-wing/right-wing of the future is progressivism/populism.

    You would think the morons in Washington would know this and change accordingly. It's already true in Europe and has been for a decade or more. But I guess in America $$$ still goes a long way in forcing the ideals of the few onto the masses.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    The developments this afternoon have come fast and furious, but the takeaway is this: Trump is purging federal law enforcement with the full support of the House GOP. We are in uncharted waters here.
  • StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654
    edited January 2018
    Let me ask another question out of curiosity:

    Is there anyone here who agrees with me that prisons are wrong? I am against prisons and believe in rehabilitation centers. The idea that the State should be in the business of punishment/vengeance strikes me as wrong. Retribution is not a good thing. If a person commits an act that harms another person and represents a threat to other people/society, then that person should be removed from society and rehabilitated with the goal of reintroducing that person to society in the future. Yet very few people, even under 40, agree with me on this. Some cite the victim's family as the relevant consideration to be had. In any case, I just thought I would see if any of you guys agreed with me on this.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963

    Is the political establishment in other countries as out of touch with the voters as American politicians are?

    I don't personally know a single voter under 40 who is either a liberal or conservative. Even the right-wingers I know, under 40, are disgusted by conservatives. Things like gay marriage are no-brainers. They believe in universal healthcare and despise tax-breaks for the wealthy.

    As for liberalism, the great majority of the democratic party is despised. It's very obvious that both liberalism and conservatism is dead. The left-wing/right-wing of the future is progressivism/populism.

    You would think the morons in Washington would know this and change accordingly. It's already true in Europe and has been for a decade or more. But I guess in America $$$ still goes a long way in forcing the ideals of the few onto the masses.

    The parties represent the big donors not the people thanks to unlimited corporate cash ruining elections thanks to citizens united
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited January 2018

    The developments this afternoon have come fast and furious, but the takeaway is this: Trump is purging federal law enforcement with the full support of the House GOP. We are in uncharted waters here.

    It looks like we're on course for Trump to release the partisan memo that is full of "factual inaccuracies" according to Rep Ted Lieu and is "the majority's distorted memo without the full facts" according to Adam Schiff. House Republicans voted to release the Republican memo written by Nunez and not the response clearing things up by Schiff.

    Nunez' memo puportedly trumps up the roles of Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and outgoing deputy FBI Director Andrew McCabe as being out to get Trump.

    That they voted today gives Trump the opportunity to release the memo before tomorrows state of the union. He can also use it to fire Rosenstein (even if the truth comes out later). Once he's fired him he can have whoever takes over the Russia thing fire Mueller. No single guy committed obstruction here - Republicans enablers enabled the whole thing. The whole party (especially the House Republicans) are complicit here.
  • StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654
    edited January 2018
    It was only recently that I was made aware of the existence of private/for-profit prisons and it left me shell-shocked. I was absolutely stunned. There are actually people in the business of human bondage. I have no words.

    Though it's not the answer, I can absolutely understand and sympathize with those who turn to communism. Sometimes capitalists really are absolute pigs.
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,938
    Prison definitely needs reform. That said, personally I don't think everyone can be reformed and rehabilitated. I just don't believe everyone is going to be good and law abiding, no matter the consequences, and no matter the state of economic prosperity.
    To top that off, when it comes to me and mine, I'm more in line with Lex Talionis if certain things were committed to those close to me or my kids.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850

    Let me ask another question out of curiosity:

    Is there anyone here who agrees with me that prisons are wrong? I am against prisons and believe in rehabilitation centers. The idea that the State should be in the business of punishment/vengeance strikes me as wrong. Retribution is not a good thing. If a person commits an act that harms another person and represents a threat to other people/society, then that person should be removed from society and rehabilitated with the goal of reintroducing that person to society in the future. Yet very few people, even under 40, agree with me on this. Some cite the victim's family as the relevant consideration to be had. In any case, I just thought I would see if any of you guys agreed with me on this.

    Are prisons inherently wrong?? Of course not. Are the ones WE have in the US, along with how our justice system is set up on every level, wrong?? Basically, yes.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037

    Let me ask another question out of curiosity:

    Is there anyone here who agrees with me that prisons are wrong? I am against prisons and believe in rehabilitation centers. The idea that the State should be in the business of punishment/vengeance strikes me as wrong. Retribution is not a good thing. If a person commits an act that harms another person and represents a threat to other people/society, then that person should be removed from society and rehabilitated with the goal of reintroducing that person to society in the future. Yet very few people, even under 40, agree with me on this. Some cite the victim's family as the relevant consideration to be had. In any case, I just thought I would see if any of you guys agreed with me on this.

    Some people *cannot* be rehabilitated while others do not *want* to be. As depressing as this may be, we must face the fact that some human beings are wild animals on two legs. Consider Charles Manson--I am certain most of his problems were caused by drug abuse but by the time he was convicted and sentenced to prison he was beyond rehabilitation.

    However, for the sake of discussion, let us presume that the system you suggest is in place. Sure, it could work for most people but what happens when that one random person comes along, goes though rehabilitation, then goes on to commit more acts which got him into that system in the first place? What then? More/longer rehab?

    I opted for this system quite a few years ago--exile. Once a repeat offender meets a certain set of conditions--three violent felonies, for example--you simply sedate them, put them on a plane or boat, drop them off at their new home, and turn them loose. They have already demonstrated that they do not wish to live by society's rules, therefore they are being given the freedom to live by whatever rules--or lack thereof--they wish at their new home. They should be advised upon arriving, though, that others are already living here under the same conditions--the only rules they must obey are self-imposed ones. Good-bye and good luck. Now society does not have to provide for them and they are not inflicting their poor choices on everyone else around them. Ironically, this makes the exiled folks *more* free than the rest of us--we still live by society's rules while they have none.

    @smeagolheart The only remaining mystery about the pyramid--okay, the other mystery since no one has yet demonstrated definitively how they were built--is that the Egyptians knew about pi even though they didn't realize that they knew about it. Some number-crunching on the area of the base of the pryamids relative to their height result in pi. I suspect they used a stone wheel which they have carved down so that by putting a notch at one spot they could roll it and measure with relative precision exactly one unit of whatever length they used (cubit? rod? I forget what it was called maat? no, wait...that's their version of "soul" or "chi"..or was that ka? *shrug* anyway) This means the wheel had a diameter of 1/pi. But I digress.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    Where would you exile them to without upsetting an already established population?

    How would you keep them in that place or how do you prevent others (such as known associates with boats or planes) going to said place and just setting up an operation there, or just transporting the person back to the country that exiled them?

    How do you prevent them from committing crimes in other countries (such as piracy) in countries in proxy to the chosen location?
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137

    I don't personally know a single voter under 40 who is either a liberal or conservative.

    Pretty sure that's not a representative sample.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    There are indeed people who are beyond all hope of reform, though I think there are fewer such people than most would assume. For those who are either incapable or unwilling to reform and change their behavior, the only remaining way to keep them from committing crimes is to lock them away indefinitely or impose the death penalty. I view the death penalty as more humane than life in prison, but I'm opposed to the death penalty in the United States because the appeals process makes it so incredibly difficult to execute anyone that the death penalty is not worth the cost in legal entanglements. Often, a death sentence is nothing more than life in prison, plus millions of dollars spent in appeals.

    That would leave us with another question: how would we determine if someone cannot be reformed? Would a certain number of offenses make them qualify? A certain type of offense, or special circumstances? Psychological evaluations? All of the above? If it is all of the above, how much should each factor weigh in that decision? An algorithm of some sort would probably be the ideal method, but I don't know what the algorithm would look like.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Congressional Democrats have said that the GOP's FBI memo is misleading because it omits certain facts and therefore context. They attempted to vote to make some of that context public, but the GOP voted against that measure.

    Only the GOP's side of the story will therefore be made public.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850

    Congressional Democrats have said that the GOP's FBI memo is misleading because it omits certain facts and therefore context. They attempted to vote to make some of that context public, but the GOP voted against that measure.

    Only the GOP's side of the story will therefore be made public.

    The only side to their story at this point is treason. By the way, the Trump Administration today just flat-out REFUSED to implement the sanctions against Russia. What precedent or authority they have to refuse to do so is a total mystery, but at this point, who the f**k is going to stop them?? This is what happens when these political norms are attacked. You are watching the crumbling before your eyes. Today was a horrible blow to presevation of whatever is left of this democracy. It's going to get worse.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    deltago said:

    Where would you exile them to without upsetting an already established population?

    How would you keep them in that place or how do you prevent others (such as known associates with boats or planes) going to said place and just setting up an operation there, or just transporting the person back to the country that exiled them?

    How do you prevent them from committing crimes in other countries (such as piracy) in countries in proxy to the chosen location?

    It would have to be an island which, ideally, has no established population so there is no one to upset. Being an island, those who have been exiled would not be able to swim to any other location--trying to do the movie thing of building a makeshift raft would be so unlikely to succeed that we may discount it altogether.

    Preventing anyone else from going there is trickier. Without a presence on the island it is impossible to prevent people from landing a seaworthy plane to pick up passengers, so all you could do is set up a transmission on repeat cautioning anyone as to the nature of the island.

    If exilees do somehow escape then they will most likely face justice in whatever country they commit new crimes; sometimes those penalties include death.

    Of course, this is just a thought experiment and an idea--no one is seriously considering such a system.

    That would leave us with another question: how would we determine if someone cannot be reformed? Would a certain number of offenses make them qualify? A certain type of offense, or special circumstances? Psychological evaluations? All of the above? If it is all of the above, how much should each factor weigh in that decision? An algorithm of some sort would probably be the ideal method, but I don't know what the algorithm would look like.

    The only determination could be made psychologically. As I noted ealier, someone committing a violent felony, being imprisoned, serving their sentence, being released, doing it again, getting out a second time, then committing a *third* such offense has demonstrated their desire to be violent. Truthfully, I don't know what that algorithm would look like, either, because it is, as I noted, only an idea instead of a system being proposed with any legitimacy.

    From a certain point of view, exile is more humane than lifetime supermax lockup, which is typically 23 hours each day in the cell (which may or may not have a window) with 1 hour outside. Of course, it is probably also a certain death sentence--I suspect the life expectancy of anyone exiled by this system is probably a year, at best, presuming they are able to subsistence farm and/or hunt. If not, they won't make it two months as they starve to death and that *certainly* isn't humane. That possibility has to be considered.
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,938
    Ahhh, the Escape from New York method of a prison. They even covered why swimming away was not an option.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903

    I don't personally know a single voter under 40 who is either a liberal or conservative.

    I'm under 40 and am a liberal or conservative!
This discussion has been closed.