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Politics. The feel in your country.

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  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited July 2018
    Trump is now pardoning the father and son arsonist duo whose case was the reason the Bundy Boys committed an armed takeover of federal land a few years ago:

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/10/politics/hammonds-trump-pardon/index.html

    If you want to get away with a crime in this country, just be white, right-wing and set fire to massive swaths of land or just commit open sedition on national TV for over a month while law enforcement does absolutely nothing as you engage in an armed takeover of federal property.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963

    Trump is now pardoning the father and son arsonist duo whose case was the reason the Bundy Boys committed an armed takeover of federal land a few years ago:

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/10/politics/hammonds-trump-pardon/index.html

    If you want to get away with a crime in this country, just be white, right-wing and set fire to massive swaths of land or just commit open sedition on national TV for over a month while law enforcement does absolutely nothing as you engage in an armed takeover of federal property.

    Trump making a mockery of justice, again. Law and order my left buttcheek.

    Hardcore right wingers have wrapped themselves in knots to say it's okay if you revolt against the United States if you are white.

    It's okay if you try to overthrow the government because you want to use government resources to make money or if you supported the rebellion for the "states rights" to keep slaves. That's all fine, you deserve statues and monuments and pardons. Horribly racist and corrupt like Dinesh D'Souza? Pardon.

    If you are brown and trying to escape murder and get a better life your kids will be stolen from you and put in Trump Cages. If you report on Trump's corruption you are an enemy of the people. If you are a Democrat you are for "anarachy" says the guy who attacks the FBI and pardoned and cheers on people who have taken up armed rebellions against the United States.

    Are his supporters really that blind?
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    The United States was founded on rebellion. That is our *true* core value.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    edited July 2018
    I couldn't disagree more. Representation in government determined by vote is our one core value, and it's the very basis of that revolution. It wasn't that the British government system was bad per se, or that rebellion was good in and of itself--it was that the British government wasn't actually being implemented in the colonies. Colonists were subject to decisions made by Parliament, but unlike folks back in Britain, the colonists could not actually vote for any representatives in Parliament. Hence the "no taxation without representation" cry. If the colonies were properly integrated into the empire and given the same rights and powers as British citizens, there would have been no revolution.

    Representation in government is the only value that isn't subject to limitations. Even freedom of speech, the first value that most Americans would name as our most important one (and the one we think about the most), has limits. The "heckler's veto" and speech that present a "clear and present danger" to the public good are both acceptable reasons for limiting certain forms of speech, according to the Supreme Court.

    The only philosophy whose core value is rebellion is Maoism. Mao rebelled even against the government he himself created, and he vowed that the revolution would be "continuous" and neverending.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    The United States was founded on rebellion. That is our *true* core value.

    It is, but the point they’re attempting to make is that it’s only a true value if you are white Christian.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    deltago said:

    The United States was founded on rebellion. That is our *true* core value.

    It is, but the point they’re attempting to make is that it’s only a true value if you are white Christian.
    You probably aren't wrong but *they* are definitely wrong. *All* people have the "last straw" position of rebellion when all other options have been exhausted. That is not me advocating rebellion, of course, only stating reality as it exists.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited July 2018

    Everyone already knows how this whole Kavanaugh thing will play out. People will protest (but their protests won't change anything), hearings will be held, Senators will line up to vote along party lines, then the Senate will invoke the nuclear option to confirm him with a simple majority vote. They'll wrap it up before the Labor Day holiday in early September.

    Yes we know that all Republicans are weak and will approve of whatever Trump tells them to do because they are scared he might say something bad about them on the Twitter. Aww.

    And Mitch McConnell said it's totally fine to hold up Supreme Court picks if the President is black errr if there's "an election" but......

    The pending Midterm election, doesn't matter. If the President is a compulsive liar under criminal investigation that's fine too. I'm sure he would be saying the same thing if we had a President Clinton in office and under active investigation by the FBI.

    We get it, Republicans are hypocrites and everything and cheat away as long as you are a Republican.

    We get it the will of the people doesn't matter.

    We have a President who more people voted for his opponent.

    We have a Senate where more Americans voted for Democrats than for Republicans but it's controlled by Republicans.

    We have a House of Representatives controlled by Republicans that is so heavily gerrymandered so that even though more people vote for Democrats it's controlled by Republicans and Democrats would have to win by like +11 points overall.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited July 2018
    It's worth noting just what these people thought they were "rebelling" against. In the case of the two Trump just pardoned, they started a fire to cover up the fact that they were illegally poaching. They were destroying evidence, it just so happened that the evidence was vast amounts of grassland, so they just decided to burn it. In the case of the Bundy Boys, it was their belief that the above mentioned father and son were treated unfairly, and the fact that they didn't want to pay grazing fees for their cattle. This caused them to literally take up sniper positions against federal agents in Nevada and then engage in an armed takeover of federal land in Oregon, where they held court for over a month threatening to shoot any law enforcement who moved in.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037


    We have a President who more people voted for his opponent.

    As you well know, the popular vote doesn't matter. There is not one at-large, general election for President but 50 (or 51) separate, independent elections. Trump won more of those individual elections; therefore, he won the election. It isn't the first time the winner lost the popular vote and it is only a matter of time before it happens again. Time to let go of that discussion, unless you want to keep complaining about it for another 2.5 years.

    The upcoming midterm elections *do* matter, though. It is highly likely that the Democrats will regain the House by a slight margin but probably won't retake the Senate. I have insufficient information for making predictions about elections for State representatives--I doubt much changes on that level, though.

    The Hammonds might have been poaching or allowing people to poach on their lands, but those claims were never proven. They were convicted on the arson charges, though--that was proven. Doesn't matter now, though--it is as if they never allegedly poached or actively set land on fire which did not belong to them. They certainly aren't innocent but now they aren't guilty, either (well, other than the tacit admission of guilt which comes with accepting a pardon).
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited July 2018
    A federal judge has ordered the reunification of dozens of families by the end of the day, since the Administration seems to still think these are suggestions rather than orders from the court. They can't do so (because they can't find them), which means the Administration is just flat-out breaking the law at this point.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/07/10/judge-wont-extend-deadlines-trump-reunite-immigrant-families/772386002/

    As Charles Pierce of Esquire puts it:

    Try this sometime. You’re in court and the judge gives you a deadline to do something by Day X. Then, when Day X arrives, tell the judge that you’ve only been able to do four percent of what the judge demanded that you do. See where you’re eating dinner that night.

    In other news on that front, it's nice to know we aren't just kidnapping migrants, we are also kidnapping children of US citizens:

    http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/396352-border-officials-may-have-taken-child-of-us-citizen-into-custody

    And yet ANOTHER incident in which ICE just storms onto private property without a warrant:

    https://wskg.org/news/how-racial-profiling-in-pa-goes-unchecked-in-immigration-enforcement/
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037


    And yet ANOTHER incident in which ICE just storms onto private property without a warrant:

    https://wskg.org/news/how-racial-profiling-in-pa-goes-unchecked-in-immigration-enforcement/

    That location isn't inside the "100 mile Constitution-free zone", is it? We all have reduced protections in that region, including people who live there.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited July 2018


    And yet ANOTHER incident in which ICE just storms onto private property without a warrant:

    https://wskg.org/news/how-racial-profiling-in-pa-goes-unchecked-in-immigration-enforcement/

    That location isn't inside the "100 mile Constitution-free zone", is it? We all have reduced protections in that region, including people who live there.
    It's Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, so I'm not sure, but I would guess it is that in that zone. Do OCEANS count as well??
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963


    As you well know, the popular vote doesn't matter.

    You are saying people don't matter, I respectfully disagree.

    It does matter. It does not count like it should but it matters.

    More actual people voted for someone other than the President.

    People are the most important thing there is.
    Not Lines on a map and cornfields in Nebraska.
    Things like that don't matter but they count.

    I ascribe more importance to people - real living people. Real people living breathing dreaming people are being capriciously ruled by a guy and a party most people don't want who is against their interests.

    Will it happen again? Yes probably. It won't be right next time either! It's not ok just because injustice happened before.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659



    You are saying people don't matter, I respectfully disagree.

    It does matter. It does not count like it should but it matters.

    More actual people voted for someone other than the President.

    People are the most important thing there is.
    Not Lines on a map and cornfields in Nebraska.
    Things like that don't matter but they count.

    I ascribe more importance to people - real living people. Real people living breathing dreaming people are being capriciously ruled by a guy and a party most people don't want who is against their interests.

    Will it happen again? Yes probably. It won't be right next time either! It's not ok just because injustice happened before.

    Completely agree.

    It isn't the first time the winner lost the popular vote and it is only a matter of time before it happens again. Time to let go of that discussion, unless you want to keep complaining about it for another 2.5 years.

    To follow up on this specifically - No. I dont think it's time to let go of that discussion. Letting go of it only serves to make it more likely it might happen again in the future; Short of a stolen election, I dont think there is anything more damning to the American political system than when the popular vote is disregarded as something that doesnt matter.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037


    As you well know, the popular vote doesn't matter.

    You are saying people don't matter, I respectfully disagree.
    No, that isn't what I said. I said *the vote* doesn't matter; none of my words construed that *people* don't matter. I didn't design the Electoral College system--in fact, I have argued against it, myself, several times, as a relic from another time when educated, landed aristocrats wanted to water down the vote of the uneducated, unwashed masses. That being said, it is the system which exists so until something replaces it we must deal with reality as it exists, not as we would like it to exist. Getting rid of the Electoral College requires a Constitutional Amendment--that process, if it started right now, would take at least 10 years to come to fruition--the measure has to pass both Houses of Congress by a supermajority, then a supermajority of State Legislatures have to ratify it, and so on.

    There is ample evidence, as @jjstraka34 notes, to support the notion that the current count of Representatives is insufficient. The count has remained at 435 for a long time despite the increase in the population.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited July 2018


    As you well know, the popular vote doesn't matter.

    You are saying people don't matter, I respectfully disagree.
    No, that isn't what I said. I said *the vote* doesn't matter; none of my words construed that *people* don't matter. I didn't design the Electoral College system--in fact, I have argued against it, myself, several times, as a relic from another time when educated, landed aristocrats wanted to water down the vote of the uneducated, unwashed masses. That being said, it is the system which exists so until something replaces it we must deal with reality as it exists, not as we would like it to exist. Getting rid of the Electoral College requires a Constitutional Amendment--that process, if it started right now, would take at least 10 years to come to fruition--the measure has to pass both Houses of Congress by a supermajority, then a supermajority of State Legislatures have to ratify it, and so on.

    There is ample evidence, as @jjstraka34 notes, to support the notion that the current count of Representatives is insufficient. The count has remained at 435 for a long time despite the increase in the population.
    It's going to be even more impossible to change now that the Republican Party has seen just how much the current system benefits them strictly as far as the logistics of how things work. If you are somehow maintaining control of the White House 50% of the time despite losing 6 of 7 popular votes since 1992, and you are maintaining a grip on both houses of Congress despite getting less votes nationally, there is no path to change.

    I think the Senate and Electoral College were probably a decent idea at the time there were 13 colonies. I have posted the population discrepancies of them before, and they were nowhere near what they are now. But as the country has expanded to 50 States, and built massive metro centers of commerce, industry, and population, we have, simply by falling into the comfort of "this is the way it has always been", given certain citizens more voting rights (and others less) simply based on where they live. It should change, but it's not even remotely realistic. Which is dismaying if you fall on a certain side of the political spectrum.

    Talking about Constitutional Amendments in this day and age is like talking about VHS tapes as a viable media platform. There hasn't been one that meant anything since 1971. That was 47 years ago.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Well, something's got to be done because things obviously are way out of hand.

    The first step is recognizing the problem and speaking up. "Hey, this ain't right...."
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Interesting read if nothing else it summarizes Trump Russia connections beyond likely election coordination and provides backstory to those connections.

    The thing it rightly points out is things could be much worse than we think. The big takeaway is that Trump could possibly be a Russian pawn since 1987. I guess we'll have to wait and see if Republicans don't succeed in obstructing justice and ending the probe early.

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/07/trump-putin-russia-collusion.html
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    Not to mention that Puerto Rico has a population greater than 21 states (as of the last census), yet receives 0 senators, 1 non-voting delegate to the House, and 0 electoral votes.

    https://www.puertoricoreport.com/population-puerto-rico-exceeds-populations-21-states/#.W0WtKpFOmEc
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited July 2018

    Not to mention that Puerto Rico has a population greater than 21 states (as of the last census), yet receives 0 senators, 1 non-voting delegate to the House, and 0 electoral votes.

    https://www.puertoricoreport.com/population-puerto-rico-exceeds-populations-21-states/#.W0WtKpFOmEc

    Relevant:
    Emboldened Racist Man caught on video harassing woman for wearing Puerto Rico T-shirt at park
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/puerto-rico-t-shirt-harassment-cook-county-forest-preserves-park-illinois/

    Authorities placed an Illinois police officer on desk duty Monday night after video surfaced of him standing idly by as a man continously harassed a woman wearing a shirt with the Puerto Rican flag.

    "You should not be wearing that in the United States of America," he said. "Are you a citizen?"

    The territory is part of the U.S. and people there are US citizens.

    This harrassment goes on for a looooong time and she keeps telling the cop she doesn't feel safe. He keeps doing nothing.
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 957
    "Then you should not be wearing that. You should be wearing United States of America flag,"
    -drunk ignorant redneck by the name of Timothy Trybus

    Funny enough, you should NOT wear the American flag.

    From the US Flag Code (4 US Code Sec 8d):
    "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker’s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general."
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Yeah I don't buy the "I was drunk being racist" and theres also "it was a joke!" excuse that's been going around when a lot of these racists get caught.

    Sarah Palin, former Republican Vice President candidate, apparently made some embarrassing remarks (probably racist or at least mean and ignorant) to Sascha Baron Cohen for his new TV show that starts to air this weekend on Showtime. She's said something bad and she's clutching her pearls about how she is sooo upset that he dressed up as a veteran for the interview as if that is worse than whatever she said when she thought she could get away with it. I guess we'll see. The preview for the show shows Dick Cheney gleefully signing a "waterboard kit" (water jug) for Cohen.

    But anyway there have been several racist tirades that have tried to be excused as "just a joke" when they get called out. Claiming "I was drunk" is new oh no wait that's pretty much what Roseanne claimed after her hateful tweets "but I was on Ambien!"

    Ambien maker to Roseanne: Racism is not a side effect of our drug
    https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/654683002

    Racism is not a side effect of alcohol either.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited July 2018

    This is called reporting. Especially when over half a dozen of your former wrestlers have now come out and said that you were told about sexual assaults by a team doctor and did nothing about it. My guess is we are going to see ALOT more come out about Jim Jordan.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367

    Not to mention that Puerto Rico has a population greater than 21 states (as of the last census), yet receives 0 senators, 1 non-voting delegate to the House, and 0 electoral votes.

    https://www.puertoricoreport.com/population-puerto-rico-exceeds-populations-21-states/#.W0WtKpFOmEc

    Relevant:
    Emboldened Racist Man caught on video harassing woman for wearing Puerto Rico T-shirt at park
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/puerto-rico-t-shirt-harassment-cook-county-forest-preserves-park-illinois/

    Authorities placed an Illinois police officer on desk duty Monday night after video surfaced of him standing idly by as a man continously harassed a woman wearing a shirt with the Puerto Rican flag.

    "You should not be wearing that in the United States of America," he said. "Are you a citizen?"

    The territory is part of the U.S. and people there are US citizens.

    This harrassment goes on for a looooong time and she keeps telling the cop she doesn't feel safe. He keeps doing nothing.
    This is so NOT news. There are 300 million people in this country. Walk around any big city and I'll bet you encounter an asshole or two sooner or later. The idea that the actions of a few represent anything is ludicrous. How about you send a tweet or take a video every time you see somebody not being an asshole and compare the amounts.
  • TakisMegasTakisMegas Member Posts: 835

    Also I cannot believe this is still happening. Are people loosing their minds?

    http://abc7.com/woman-arrested-for-leaving-2-kids-in-hot-car-at-ontario-walmart/3740378/

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    This is probably a racist comment, but I am flabbergasted that this woman was black. A person would think the oppression and past violence black people had and have to put up with would weigh into this individuals actions and perception of people. I honestly wonder where this anger came from for her to do that not only to an elderly old man, but in front of her child as well.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited July 2018
    That link doesn't mention how as he was beaten she was yelling to him to "go back to Mexico"

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/09/us/mexican-man-beaten-brick-los-angeles/index.html

    It sure seems to me that incidents like this are becoming more common.

    Tons of examples of things like this and also cops being called on black people for wearing socks, sleeping, mowing the lawn, selling water, and using a park's barbecue.

    Now we got people threatening assault for wearing a shirt with the Puero Rican flag.

    Sure two years ago it happened once in a blue moon but not every day like it does now.

    There's always going to be some amount of ignorant idiots but they seem to be emboldened these days. Why? Yes people are always leaving pets and kids in hot cars I'm talking about the other incidents.

    New data shows U.S. hate crimes continued to rise in 2017
    "highest level in a decade"
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-data-shows-us-hate-crimes-continued-to-rise-in-2017/
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Ahead of President Trump's controversial visit to the UK the BBC has produced a documentary on the more than 20 women who have accused him of being a "sex pest".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB0IpYuYzk0
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