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Politics. The feel in your country.

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Comments

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 5,369

    More Mueller indictments today, but the big news (the VERY big news) is that we now know without a shadow of a doubt that the Russian Government hacked state election boards and stole the data of over half a million voters. Never let it be forgotten that the "national security" party has been trying to shut down this investigation for a year. All on the eve of Trump going to have his performance review with Putin.

    Moreover, remember that July 26th, 2016 Press Conference when Trump asked Russia on national television to hack Hillary's campaign?? According to the indictments, on July 27th, the next day, they did EXACTLY that.

    Trump's meeting with Putin tomorrow is a betrayal of this country given this news.

    One of the big take-aways or spins that will be used here is that No American was charged with this hacking scheme and collusion with the Russian hasn’t been proven yet.

    Sure Russia hacked the servers, but Trump or his team had nothing to do with it. Them starting after Trump stupidly said that on TV is either them attempting to undermine the democratic process or a sheer coincidence.

    As Mathsorcerer will probably point out, these charges are meaningless as getting the security officers extradited to the US to face these charges is laughable.

    It is up to Congress to use this information to punish Russia in other ways and to make sure this doesn’t happen again. Too bad they are too busy yelling at an FBI agent to actually do anything meaningful like that.

    TakisMegasBalrog99
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 2,410

    More Mueller indictments today

    Why bother indicting Russian military intelligence personnel? They will *never* see the inside of a United States courtroom, so that is pretty much a waste of effort.

    Balrog99TakisMegas
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 213



    Why bother indicting Russian military intelligence personnel? They will *never* see the inside of a United States courtroom, so that is pretty much a waste of effort.

    In this case, it's not really a waste of time.

    First - the 12 officials are directly connected to Russian Military Intelligence, meaning we have (I believe) our first indictment that explicitly connects Russia to the hacking, and more generally, to the attempt to influence to the election

    Second - if any of those 12 officials have or do business within the USA or in other public domains, they can be sanctioned or otherwise damaged financially for their actions.

    Third - The indictments also tie the Trump campaign into the hacks. They include reference to an unidentified intermediary that had "consistent" contact between the GRU officers and the Trump Campaign (This is believed to be Roger Stone). It also points to an organization that released these hacked emails (Almost certainly Wikileaks). Lastly. There's an unidentified "congressional candidate" who apparently sought information from Guccifer 2.0 and later received that information.


    In sum - Mueller believes he has evidence that Russia was behind the hacks/meddling. He references that the Trump Campaign was in some form of contact with the hackers, and that potentially, a sitting member of congress was also talking to the GRU for information (We dont know who this is, but I deeply hope it's Nunes, for selfish reasons).

    That's a veritable TON of important and impactful information. The goal isnt to put GRU operatives in jail, it's to generate an iron-clad case that demonstrates the Russia hacked the US to influence the US election, and to determine if anyone in the US were colluding to accomplish it.

    jjstraka34ThacoBellGrond0
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 5,026
    They also seem to have gotten ahold of the Clinton campaign's analytics information. If you know anything about politics, you would know that a rival campaign having that information handed to then would be worth WAY more than, let's say, 70,000 votes in 3 states. Watergate started as a break-in of a Democratic headquarters. This is the cyber-version.

    ThacoBell
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831
    edited July 13

    They also seem to have gotten ahold of the Clinton campaign's analytics information. If you know anything about politics, you would know that a rival campaign having that information handed to then would be worth WAY more than, let's say, 70,000 votes in 3 states. Watergate started as a break-in of a Democratic headquarters. This is the cyber-version.

    John Oliver calls this Trump Russian treasonous plot to steal the election "Stupid Watergate".

    "The idea that it's something with all the gravitas of Watergate, but where everyone involved is stupid and bad at everything," he said. "Unfortunately, it was supposed to be just a self-contained joke, but current events are making it more and more relevant. Which is not normally how jokes work."

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2017/07/13/john-oliver-explains-how-his-stupid-watergate-joke-has-suddenly-turned-relevant/

    ThacoBell
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831
    "REJECT THE MAINSTREME MEDIA + THE LIEbrary OF FALSE INFOMATION THEY TRY TO PUSH INTO THE PUBLICS MIND'S. THE TRUTHBRARY WILL SET YOU FREE. TRUTHBRARY IS A LIBERTY WEBSITE FOR TRUE AMERICA AND TRUTH LOVING AMERICANS."
    - Billy Wayne Ruddick Jr., PhD


    https://www.truthbrary.org

    bleusteel
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 2,563
    edited July 14

    "REJECT THE MAINSTREME MEDIA + THE LIEbrary OF FALSE INFOMATION THEY TRY TO PUSH INTO THE PUBLICS MIND'S. THE TRUTHBRARY WILL SET YOU FREE. TRUTHBRARY IS A LIBERTY WEBSITE FOR TRUE AMERICA AND TRUTH LOVING AMERICANS."
    - Billy Wayne Ruddick Jr., PhD


    https://www.truthbrary.org

    Wow, all that information and not even a mention of where to send my check...

    Edit: I dug deeper into the website and found out that the CIA created rock-n-roll. Blues Brothers - black suits, coincidence? I think not!

    semiticgodTakisMegassmeagolheartThacoBell
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831
    edited July 14
    Balrog99 said:

    "REJECT THE MAINSTREME MEDIA + THE LIEbrary OF FALSE INFOMATION THEY TRY TO PUSH INTO THE PUBLICS MIND'S. THE TRUTHBRARY WILL SET YOU FREE. TRUTHBRARY IS A LIBERTY WEBSITE FOR TRUE AMERICA AND TRUTH LOVING AMERICANS."
    - Billy Wayne Ruddick Jr., PhD


    https://www.truthbrary.org

    Wow, all that information and not even a mention of where to send my check...

    Edit: I dug deeper into the website and found out that the CIA created rock-n-roll. Blues Brothers - black suits, coincidence? I think not!
    It's a Website from Sasha Baron Cohen's new show.

    ----

    Why is there a GoFundMe for getting the "self made" kardashian to a billion dollars but there isn't one for this

    Post edited by smeagolheart on
  • MatthieuMatthieu Member Posts: 353
    Meanwhile
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-britain-robinson/trumps-ambassador-lobbied-britain-on-behalf-of-jailed-right-wing-activist-tommy-robinson-idUSKBN1K331J

    Trump's ambassador lobbied Britain on behalf of jailed right-wing activist Tommy Robinson

    LONDON (Reuters) - Sam Brownback, the U.S. Ambassador for International Religious Freedom, complained to the British ambassador in Washington D.C. about the treatment of an English right-wing activist who is in jail for disrupting a trial, according to three sources familiar with the discussion.

    Brownback raised the case of the activist known as Tommy Robinson in a June meeting with Sir Kim Darroch, Britain’s Ambassador to the United States, according to a British official and two sources close to the organizers of a pro-Robinson demonstration planned for London on Saturday....

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831
    Dan Coats, current Director of National Intelligence since 2017 under the Trump Administration, addressing the Hudson Institute in Washington, DC, on Friday said "Today, the digital infrastructure that serves this country is literally under attack".

    Today, Trump blamed Obama for Russian hacking. He's blaming the victim and giving a pass to the hackers. Obama went to Republicans in Congress and Mitch McConnell refused to endorse a bipartisan statement on the hacking. Saying that if Obama mentioned the hacking, then Mitch would loudly clutch his pearls at the partisan statement. So you can blame the GOP and Russia, Democrats just got hacked. Trump called for hacking "Russia if you're listening... get those emails." and Russia listened and immediately started trying.

    Gee it's almost like the GOP likes the hacking.

    Republicans just sent 8 Republican members and 0 Democrats from Congress on July 4th, American Independence day, on a secret meeting in Russia. "I’m not here today to accuse Russia of this or that or so forth,” Shelby told Duma Speaker Vyacheslav Volodin. “I’m saying that we should all strive for a better relationship.”


    Trump despite the latest indictments by Mueller is determined to meet Putin. A summit scheduled for monday between US President Donald Trump and Russian leader Vladimir Putin will go ahead as planned despite tension over Moscow's alleged election meddling, the White House said. It sure seems like there's no tension from Trump.






  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 997
    Basically my thoughts on the matter.








  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,858
    edited July 15
    I have difficulty giving Russian agents the benefit of the doubt when they're being accused of the same behavior for which they've been infamous for since years before the 2016 election. For me, this is essentially the same as when the U.S. authorities issued indictments for Chinese hackers: it functions as an official announcement for something that has long been an open secret.

    There's nothing improper about indicting people for committing crimes even if the alleged criminals will never stand trial because they have a place to hide. There's nothing unreasonable about believing that a foreign government that's been hacking other countries for years has, once again, hacked another country.

    The fact that the Russian and Chinese governments have been financing hacking programs on foreign targets has been common knowledge for some time. It doesn't stop being common knowledge just because the indictments are almost (but not actually) related to Trump in some way.

    I can understand giving members of the Trump administration the benefit of the doubt if they're accused of doing something wrong. I have more difficulty understanding giving Russian agents the benefit of the doubt.

    ThacoBell
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 5,369
    The best things about spouting ones opinion on Twitter is you don't have to back up the claims being made.

    The two lines "Indictments frequently fall apart upon scrutiny" and the "not sold on the 'change your passwords'" are two he needs to back up. The Change your password one is considered fraud. depending on what information the hackers were phishing for constitute if is an "Attack on America."


    And after googling "indictments frequently fall apart," this was one of the top links after the ones explaining what an indictment was AND the Ferguson case where the jury refused to indict the police officer.


    This line: "You haven't seen all the information yet," cuts both ways. To state that the case has no merit or even the allegations have no merit is meaningless until all the information is shared in front of a grand jury.


    Also, if the Russians have nothing to hide, they are free to come to America and face these allegations head on. Hell, if you want them present, just have them Skype their appearance like they do with some criminals in jail these days.

    Grond0semiticgodThacoBell
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 997

    The best things about spouting ones opinion on Twitter is you don't have to back up the claims being made.
    The best part about bringing allegations against those who will never see the inside of a courtroom is that you don't have to back up the claims being made in a proper court of law. Yet the demands that one take it on fath are high. Greenwald was right about that.
    This line: "You haven't seen all the information yet," cuts both ways. To state that the case has no merit or even the allegations have no merit is meaningless until all the information is shared in front of a grand jury.
    Perhaps it cuts both ways, but it cuts the skeptic much less. One should not assume charges have merit until it is proven in a court of law to be the case, the concept of innocent until proven guilty applies even to those Saint Mueller accuses.

    And because these claims will likely never be properly tested, the evidence not presented or challenged, it speaks for itself. It's an accusation and little more.

    One more twitter post, regarding indictments:






    TakisMegasdeltagoBalrog99
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831
    Indictments show that there is enough evidence to go to trial.

    They by themselves don't prove guilt or innocence just that there's enough proof. That doesn't mean they are not true, it means the trial hasn't happened yet.

    I don't understand it seems you are trying to present the argument that just because there's a grand jury the charges must be fake? That's the way the system works so every charge is fake ever? Wut?

    More Mueller indictments today

    Why bother indicting Russian military intelligence personnel? They will *never* see the inside of a United States courtroom, so that is pretty much a waste of effort.
    A President who wasn't completely corrupt and compromised by Putin might demand Putin do something about these personnel. Maybe demand him to stop, maybe enforce sanctions. If you want to be diplomatic about it, say "hey Vlad we have a lot of evidence these guys attacked us, we want them to be put on trial for these crimes. Why don't you extradite these guys for crimes for us." Maybe DO SOMETHING.

    ThacoBell
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 5,026
    edited July 15
    It's rather interesting that people like Greenwald and Tracey, who are somehow convinced the Democratic Primary was stolen from Bernie despite no evidence are unconvinced Russian interference took place despite DOZENS of grand jury indictments. I guess it just goes to show that if you go far enough left, eventually you end up on the right. From the perspective of this liberal, they have both spent the bulk of their time the last 18 months (much like FOX News) castigating the Clinton campaign and the Russia investigation, all but ignoring those who are actually in power. Even the generally accepted view of the incompetence of the Clinton campaign's strategy is now coming into question since we now know their targeting analytics were stolen, which is basically like an opposing football coach knowing what plays you are going to run.

    ThacoBell
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831
    edited July 15
    Sacha Baron Cohen dupes politicians into endorsing guns for toddlers

    Yeah politicians were not so much 'duped' as much as willingly endorsed arming toddlers.

    Several Republican politicians current and past were all for arming 4 year olds in school. One lobbyist guy was so proud that he successfully stopped a state bill from letting 4-12 year olds from owning guns.

    Why stop at arming the teachers, why not arm the children, right? The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good child with a gun? Sound right?

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,649

    Sacha Baron Cohen dupes politicians into endorsing guns for toddlers

    Yeah politicians were not so much 'duped' as much as willingly endorsed arming toddlers.

    Several Republican politicians current and past were all for arming 4 year olds in school. One lobbyist guy was so proud that he successfully stopped a state bill from letting 4-12 year olds from owning guns.

    Why stop at arming the teachers, why not arm the children, right? The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good child with a gun? Sound right?

    smeagolheart
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,484
    There have been people calling for a second referendum on Brexit for a long time now, but this story provides a slightly different slant on this.

    Essentially, the call is for there to be 3 options on the ballot:
    1) Remain
    2) Leave with no deal
    3) Leave on the basis of the compromise deal spelled out recently by Theresa May.
    Voting would include 1st and 2nd preferences to allow a decision to be made.

    This type of arrangement might actually be able to tell us what the will of the people is. Leave supporters are constantly saying that May's deal does not deliver the Brexit that people voted for - and I think that will be true for many people. What Leave supporters always omit though is the obvious corollary that some of those who voted Leave would not want to exit the EU without a deal.

    I'm quite certain that there is currently no majority in the UK for leaving the EU without a deal. Whether that would be the preferred option on the basis of 1st and 2nd preferences I don't know - it would be interesting to find out though :D.

    ThacoBell
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 5,026
    Real wages DROPPED by 1.4% in the last year. Expect this to get way, way worse when the consumer starts feeling the effects of the tariff war:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/worker-wages-drop-while-companies-spend-billions-to-boost-stocks/

    semiticgodThacoBell
  • MatthieuMatthieu Member Posts: 353
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/15/world/canada/hudsons-bay-ivanka-trump.html

    Major Chain in Canada Pulls Ivanka Trump’s Clothing

    OTTAWA — Canada’s largest full-line department store chain, the Hudson’s Bay Company, has pulled clothing, shoes and other merchandise bearing Ivanka Trump’s fashion brand from its website and said it would wind down their sale in its stores across the country......


    Karma?

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831
    edited July 16
    Grond0 said:

    There have been people calling for a second referendum on Brexit for a long time now, but this story provides a slightly different slant on this.

    Essentially, the call is for there to be 3 options on the ballot:
    1) Remain
    2) Leave with no deal
    3) Leave on the basis of the compromise deal spelled out recently by Theresa May.
    Voting would include 1st and 2nd preferences to allow a decision to be made.

    This type of arrangement might actually be able to tell us what the will of the people is. Leave supporters are constantly saying that May's deal does not deliver the Brexit that people voted for - and I think that will be true for many people. What Leave supporters always omit though is the obvious corollary that some of those who voted Leave would not want to exit the EU without a deal.

    I'm quite certain that there is currently no majority in the UK for leaving the EU without a deal. Whether that would be the preferred option on the basis of 1st and 2nd preferences I don't know - it would be interesting to find out though :D.

    Another vote in England on brexit would be a real strain on Vladimir Putin's cyber offense budget. And he's already allocated next quarter's budget to creating fake news and propaganda in support of his subordinates in the Republican party for the November midterm elections. It's a lot to ask.

    Grond0Balrog99ThacoBell
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 5,369
    Matthieu said:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/15/world/canada/hudsons-bay-ivanka-trump.html

    Major Chain in Canada Pulls Ivanka Trump’s Clothing

    OTTAWA — Canada’s largest full-line department store chain, the Hudson’s Bay Company, has pulled clothing, shoes and other merchandise bearing Ivanka Trump’s fashion brand from its website and said it would wind down their sale in its stores across the country......


    Karma?

    Yes and no. If it isn’t selling, it’ll be removed. Hudson Bay flips its brands yearly. The only reason why this is news is because of the name attached to it.

    Now it may not have been selling due to the name attached on the label, or it could be that other brands offer a better style selection than Trump’s, but really, who cares?

    There wasn’t a peep when the company outsourced their suits to China and Indonesia after decades of being made in Canada. There wasn’t a peep when they dropped the Canadian brand Point Zero. There shouldn’t be a peep now.

    TakisMegasBalrog99
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831
    edited July 16
    Here's what Trump had to say heading into his meeting with Putin:




    He's lying.

    Trump continues to attack US institutions including the previous administration and the FBI.

    Putin attacked America.

    Trump directly encouraged Putin to attack America.

    Trump directly benefited from Putin's attack on America.

    Today, Trump had a private 2 hour meeting with Putin.

    Trump is a traitor.

    The entire Republican party continues to support this overt attack on America.

    It's disgusting.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 5,026
    edited July 16
    Obama went to Mitch McConnell before the election and asked him to make a joint statement about the Russian interference. He did this because a unilateral statement from a Democratic White House would have seemed ITSELF as putting the fingers on the scale for Hillary. Because McConnell is a craven, cynical bastard, he REFUSED to partake in the bipartisan statement. Thus, Obama's hands were tied. Without an act of good faith on the part of the Republicans (who had the same information) in warning the public about the interference, him coming out with the information by himself would have caused an endless wave of attacks about him politicizing national security. Anyone who paid any attention to the Obama years KNOWS this to be 110% true.

    Trump's press conference with Putin today leaves not a shred of doubt in my mind about what I have known since the beginning of all of this. He just sided with the people who attacked our elections over the country he is the leader of. There is no other way to spin it. He is utterly compromised, and guilty as sin. And for the record, any Democratic President who conducted themselves in a 1/10th of this way in a similar situation would be tarred and feathered, and then drawn and quartered. SILENCE from the right today. The party of national security. What a joke. Putin owns this man lock, stock, and barrel. It's so transparently obvious. Trump just threw our entire democracy under the bus to please a murderous authoritarian. Disgraceful.

    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
    semiticgodGrond0smeagolheartThacoBell
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 2,410
    edited July 16

    A President who wasn't completely corrupt and compromised by Putin might demand Putin do something about these personnel. Maybe demand him to stop, maybe enforce sanctions. If you want to be diplomatic about it, say "hey Vlad we have a lot of evidence these guys attacked us, we want them to be put on trial for these crimes. Why don't you extradite these guys for crimes for us." Maybe DO SOMETHING.

    Trump's only option would be sanctions because Putin will never extradite members of Russian intelligence.

    Trump is a traitor.

    It is highly unlikely that this could ever be proven in a court of law. Saying it, even repeating it, does not make it true.

    Remember when everyone ridiculed Romney back in 2012 for suggesting that Russia was our enemy? Anyway, I told you that Trump was going to be a one-term President.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 5,026
    One just needs to apply Occam's Razor to what we saw today from Trump. What is the simplest reason Trump would flat-out side with Putin on the issue of the election attack??

This discussion has been closed.