Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit nwn.beamdog.com to make an order. NWN:EE FAQ is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE, PST:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Politics. The feel in your country.

1627628630632633635

Comments

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831
    edited July 18

    I've been thinking alot today about how the President of the United States simply does NOT care about the security or integrity of the one thing that let's all of us have a say in what goes on in this country, which is our vote and the election process. How can anyone believe this man is going to do anything to prevent a retread of 2016 going forward??

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/07/15/on-russian-state-tv-putin-has-already-won-the-summit-with-trump/

    Before the meeting Russian state TV hosts brazenly assert, “Trump is ours,” and "joke" that the U.S. lawmakers traveled to Russia (for the July 4th meeting with 8 Republican lawmakers) “to make deals with our hackers, so they can rig the midterms in favor of Trump’s team.”

    You know I believe the Russians here. Especially based on everything Trump said and everything he and the Republicans do.

    Trump says Hillary is a liar, Comey is a liar, the EU is a foe, NATO sucks, his intelligence agencies are lying, Democrats are lying,
    Germany lies, everyone is lying but golly gee that Vladimir Putin is a great guy.

    FinneousPJThacoBell
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,655
    edited July 18
    I don't think anyone who's seen even clips of the summit can say there isn't something going on in the background with Trump & Putin.

  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 2,410


    Look it's clear now after over two years of public life that Putin has some kind of hold over Trump.

    Maybe it's the pee tape maybe it's something else like detailed knowledge of illegal business dealings. The only thing Trump cares about is his ego and his money so Putin obviously has power over one or more of those things.

    Again, Trump has spent his entire life seeking external validation from the people whom he venerates. What kind of people are those? The ones who present themselves as if they are above everyone else, as if the problems facing mere mortals do not touch them, and who can command a room by merely walking into it (even if they have to surround themselves with sycophants to attain this effect). Putin presents himself as just such a person so Trump automatically tries to gain his favor and attention despite the fact that they are, for all intents and purposes, equal in stature and power. Trump's inferiority complex has always been his single greatest weakness. Why else would he have to go over the top to display the wealth he has attained by gold-plating things, having someone create fake Time magazine covers to display in Mar-a-Lago, and have a propensity to marry models (Marla wasn't a model, only an actress)?

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831
    Agreed Trump likes those who act like they are above the law. He thinks he is above the law as well, that's not new to him. And his make it up as he goes along make believe world of self aggrandizing himself is something he's done for at least 40 years.

    Another major thing of his, besides the self aggrandizing, is his toxic personality where he insults everyone and everything. Nato, the UN, the USA, and on and you name it he's insulted it.
    Yet he's never said a bad word about Putin.

    There's been plenty of chances. Trump has no qualms about flip flopping on every issue if its convenient yet he can't even bring himself to even weakly criticize Putin. There's been plenty of chances as Putin has been proven to literally cyber attack America and interfere in our elections. Not. One. Word. Ever.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 608
    edited July 18


    Look it's clear now after over two years of public life that Putin has some kind of hold over Trump.

    Maybe it's the pee tape maybe it's something else like detailed knowledge of illegal business dealings. The only thing Trump cares about is his ego and his money so Putin obviously has power over one or more of those things.

    Again, Trump has spent his entire life seeking external validation from the people whom he venerates. What kind of people are those? The ones who present themselves as if they are above everyone else, as if the problems facing mere mortals do not touch them, and who can command a room by merely walking into it (even if they have to surround themselves with sycophants to attain this effect). Putin presents himself as just such a person so Trump automatically tries to gain his favor and attention despite the fact that they are, for all intents and purposes, equal in stature and power. Trump's inferiority complex has always been his single greatest weakness. Why else would he have to go over the top to display the wealth he has attained by gold-plating things, having someone create fake Time magazine covers to display in Mar-a-Lago, and have a propensity to marry models (Marla wasn't a model, only an actress)?
    That would be slightly more believeable if Trump didn't brag about his "lucrative" deals with Russians in the past. Here is the important part many forget: Putin doesn't need any blackmail material on Trump, whether secret dossiers or campaign help; all Putin needs is control over the Russian oligarchs who Trump did business deals with. And he already has it.

    It comes down to two simple questions: does Trump owe a big sum of money to the oligarchs and were his business dealings with them legal?

    smeagolheartGrond0ThacoBellMathsorcerer
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,655
    This video was actually hilarious



    Fox news criticising the body language of Obama around Putin

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831
    edited July 19
    image

    image



    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    future headline:

    Trump claims he misspoke. He didn’t mean to say there "was no collusion" he meant to say that "was collusion".

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    The House Republican spending bill (HR 6147) would zero out election security grants that help states to fortify their systems against hacking and cyber attacks.

    House Republicans are also refusing to allow a vote on a Democratic amendment to fund election systems protection on their spending bill. Just to make this clear: the Republican spending bill ends grant funding to protect elections AND they refuse to consider reinstating it.

    https://www.rollcall.com/news/politics/democrats-line-up-for-election-security-funds

    Ulysses S. Grant said in 1861 "There are but two parties now, traitors and patriots. And I want hereafter to be ranked with the latter and, I trust, the stronger party." Seems pretty appropriate these days.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 5,028
    edited July 19
    Lest anyone anywhere EVER think differently, this New York Times article is completely damning in regards to what Trump knows and what he is telling the public. Unconscionable:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/18/world/europe/trump-intelligence-russian-election-meddling-.html

    From the article:

    Two weeks before his inauguration, Donald J. Trump was shown highly classified intelligence indicating that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia had personally ordered complex cyberattacks to sway the 2016 American election.

    The evidence included texts and emails from Russian military officers and information gleaned from a top-secret source close to Mr. Putin, who had described to the C.I.A. how the Kremlin decided to execute its campaign of hacking and disinformation.

    Mr. Trump sounded grudgingly convinced, according to several people who attended the intelligence briefing. But ever since, Mr. Trump has tried to cloud the very clear findings that he received on Jan. 6, 2017, which his own intelligence leaders have unanimously endorsed.


    More to chew on?? How do we know Trump didn't reveal these intelligence assets in his closed door meeting??

    smeagolheart
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831
    edited July 19
    Not only that but look at the actions he has taken since he was shown that proof of Russian sanctioned cyber attacks.

    That lying corrupt treasonous guy has been saying things like this even when he knows it's a lie just a few weeks after he was given evidence that Putin personally ordered the attack:



    And just a few days after the briefing he equated US Intelligence to Nazi Germany:



    This treasonous guy knew, and he has been giving aid and comfort to Russia the whole time. And he wants them to meddle (information warfare) in future elections so he can get re-elected with more Republicans so they can continue their rampant corruption.

    During the Helsinki summit Trump was also discussing an 'interesting' idea of turning over American citizens including a former diplomat for questioning to Russia.

    FinneousPJ
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831
    edited July 20


    Traitors. It's not that they don't care about your voting rights, they care they don't want you to be able to vote.

    "The Republican Party has a platform that can’t prevail in democratic competition. This is one of the big themes of my book, and why I think this situation is so dangerous. When highly committed parties strongly believe [in] things that they cannot achieve democratically, they don’t give up on their beliefs — they give up on democracy."
    -David Frum, author and conservative editor at the Atlantic magazine.

    ThacoBellGrond0semiticgod
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 5,028
    Even if I agreed with them on EVERY other issue, I could never support a party that is so brazenly AGAINST 1.) certain people being able to vote at all and 2.) absolutely unconcerned with the integrity of elections.

  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 2,410
    edited July 20
    How many times did we interfere in the elections other countries were holding over the last few decades? Seems like we are merely reaping that which we have sown. Quit blaming Trump, though--if all the meddling occurred in 2016 then we should be blaming the Administration which was in power at that time and did *nothing* about it.

    I suspect that if Hillary had won we wouldn't be hearing about Russian meddling in the elections *at all*.

    ZaghoulBalrog99
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831
    edited July 20

    How many times did we interfere in the elections other countries were holding over the last few decades?

    Too many. And more than just the last few decades. We're talking more than a hundred years probably.

    But you know what they say: two wrongs don't make a right.

    Quit blaming Trump, though--if all the meddling occurred in 2016 then we should be blaming the Administration which was in power at that time and did *nothing* about it.

    First of all, all the meddling did not occur in 2016. It's still ongoing.

    And fine if you go back then blame Mitch McConnell. Obama tried to do something about Russian meddling but was blocked by Mitch McConnell. Last year, The Washington Post reported that because of McConnell, the Obama administration decided not to go public with the information of the Russian hackers, fearing that it would just lead to a partisan squabble and accusations that it was trying to influence the election on Clinton’s behalf. You know that is what would have happened. So sure you can blame Obama for trying to do the right thing.

    Trump is not blameless. He was briefed, he knew about the Russian meddling before he his inauguration. And he's been lying to us this whole time. What we know for sure is that his sons and campaign staff met with Russians to get dirt on Clinton. And he, Trump, went on TV and begged Russia to hack Hillary's emails and they got on it that night. What else did he do? I'm sure there's more and hope it comes out. Because there has been new revelations if not daily then weekly. Now we're hearing how Russian intelligence funneled 30 million to Trump through the NRA.


    I suspect that if Hillary had won we wouldn't be hearing about Russian meddling in the elections *at all*.

    We will never know. All we can do is deal with what we have.

    But hey Russia is still "meddling". It's not a one time thing and it's not over. And it's not meddling it's information warfare. And Republicans are encouraging it by their efforts. Such as removing from the budget grants to states to fight cyber terrorism. And denying a Democratic measure to re-add said funds. Various intelligence heads have sounded the alarm yet Congressional Republicans are doing nothing - worse than doing nothing they are removing previously allocated funds to combat "meddling".

    Republicans realize they can't win on the issues so they are cheating. This is not news and has already happened, voter suppression, gerrymandering, and so on.


    image

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,486
    edited July 20

    I suspect that if Hillary had won we wouldn't be hearing about Russian meddling in the elections *at all*.

    @Mathsorcerer what's your rationale for this?
    - there's a clear national interest in defending the US against foreign interference.
    - the evidence to date seems clear that that the hacking was largely aimed at benefiting Trump & the Republicans, so she would have a narrow political as well as a broad national interest in stopping this.
    - Clinton has always argued for a stronger line against Russia than Trump, so her past statements wouldn't suggest she would take it easy on them.

    I suppose you could argue that Hillary proceeding against the Russians would have been less newsworthy, as it would probably have been less controversial to have such proceedings supported by the White House than opposed. In that sense we might have heard a little bit less about a story - is that what you mean?

    ThacoBell
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 2,410

    First of all, all the meddling did not occur in 2016. It's still ongoing.

    I never said it wasn't.

    And fine if you go back then blame Mitch McConnell. Obama tried to do something about Russian meddling but was blocked by Mitch McConnell. Last year, The Washington Post reported that because of McConnell, the Obama administration decided not to go public with the information of the Russian hackers, fearing that it would just lead to a partisan squabble and accusations that it was trying to influence the election on Clinton’s behalf. You know that is what would have happened. So sure you can blame Obama for trying to do the right thing.

    Oh, *please*. The Senate cannot stop the FBI from investigating something. From the very article you cite:
    The statement was issued around 3:30 p.m., timed for maximum media coverage. Instead, it was quickly drowned out. At 4 p.m., The Post published a story about crude comments Trump had made about women that were captured on an “Access Hollywood” tape. Half an hour later, WikiLeaks published its first batch of emails stolen from Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta.

    To some, Obama’s determination to avoid politicizing the Russia issue had the opposite effect: It meant that he allowed politics to shape his administration’s response to what some believed should have been treated purely as a national security threat.
    Too many people were more concerned about the Access Hollywood sound byte than there were about *actual* problems. This also highlights Obama's lack of ability to think three moves ahead like a chess player when it came to national security. Obama was scared of Putin--he didn't do anything about Crimea and he didn't do anything about the hacking. The hacking and use of fake media stories on social media outlets like Facebook--which gladly cashed all the checks the Russian troll farms gave them for the privilege of posting deliberately false news items--should have been front page news the moment it was discovered, politics be damned.

    But that's old news. Trump's failure to do anything about it is Trump's failure--he has to own it. He isn't, of course, and it will cost him his second term in 2020.
    Grond0 said:

    I suppose you could argue that Hillary proceeding against the Russians would have been less newsworthy, as it would probably have been less controversial to have such proceedings supported by the White House than opposed. In that sense we might have heard a little bit less about a story - is that what you mean?

    Exactly--it wouldn't have been newsworthy, or at least not as newsworthy as it is now. As things stand, most of the people offering harsh, negative criticism of Trump wind up sounding as if they are still choking on sour grapes after Hillary's loss. If they want to "get" Trump, then they need to get him on things he has *actually* done, not things which they suspect or which have not been proven.

    *************

    In other news--what a breath of fresh air that is--Texas is set to become the third largest producer of oil and natural gas *in the world*. Energy independence is a good thing.

    semiticgodBalrog99WarChiefZeke
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831
    edited July 20

    As things stand, most of the people offering harsh, negative criticism of Trump wind up sounding as if they are still choking on sour grapes after Hillary's loss. If they want to "get" Trump, then they need to get him on things he has *actually* done, not things which they suspect or which have not been proven.

    How do people excuse the stuff he has done? Trump locks kids in cages, oh that's sour grapes for Hillary's loss huh. Trump blatantly corrupt visits to his own golf courses and refusal to divest his businesses, must be hillary. What on earth. Trump lies and never tells the truth, something something Hillary, right.



    ThacoBell
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 5,028
    edited July 20
    Michael Cohen taped the conversation he had with Trump about a pay-off to a former Playboy model. The FBI has it. If there is ANY talk of using campaign funds to do so, it would be game, set, match for any other President. They would be impeached. For Trump, there would be crickets.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/20/us/politics/michael-cohen-trump-tape.html

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831

    Michael Cohen taped the conversation he had with Trump about a pay-off to a former Playboy model. The FBI has it. If there is ANY talk of using campaign funds to do so, it would be game, set, match for any other President. They would be impeached. For Trump, there would be crickets.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/20/us/politics/michael-cohen-trump-tape.html

    Violatiions of campaign finance laws are a felony. Felonies are high crimes and misdemeanors. A tape of the conspiracy and admission of the felony should be the end, if there is any rule of law at all left which is doubtful.

    Someone call Vladimir and tell him his visits cancelled and then tell Trump that take your boss to work day is going to have to be cancelled.

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 5,370

    This also highlights Obama's lack of ability to think three moves ahead like a chess player when it came to national security. Obama was scared of Putin--he didn't do anything about Crimea and he didn't do anything about the hacking. The hacking and use of fake media stories on social media outlets like Facebook--which gladly cashed all the checks the Russian troll farms gave them for the privilege of posting deliberately false news items--should have been front page news the moment it was discovered, politics be damned.

    What would you have had Obama (or any president) do that wasn’t done after the Crimea incident?

  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 213



    Too many people were more concerned about the Access Hollywood sound byte than there were about *actual* problems. This also highlights Obama's lack of ability to think three moves ahead like a chess player when it came to national security. Obama was scared of Putin--he didn't do anything about Crimea and he didn't do anything about the hacking. The hacking and use of fake media stories on social media outlets like Facebook--which gladly cashed all the checks the Russian troll farms gave them for the privilege of posting deliberately false news items--should have been front page news the moment it was discovered, politics be damned.


    This is quite possibly the most tired of all political tropes. "Blame Obama". It's virtually's everyone's get out of jail card.

    Clinton didnt win. Obama isnt in office in anymore. Everyone made mistakes, but to attempt to boil down the current controversy into "Obama should have done more! He's the real one at fault!" is patently ridiculous. He tried to avoid putting his finger on the scale in an administrative sense during an election. Maybe he was wrong not to do so, but let's not forget that Trump is knee deep in this s**t, and has been since 2015.

    Also, the Access Hollywood tape wasnt an *actual* problem? Gloating about sexual assault is a problem no matter who does it. Man. Woman. President of the United States.

    Everyone.

    ThacoBelljjstraka34smeagolheartAmmar
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 5,028
    edited July 20

    This old chestnut is back right in the nick of time for Trump. First of all, this is once again a REAL free speech issue because the most powerful person in the country is using the authority of the Executive Branch to attempt to dictate to an employer how a employee should or should not be punished based on their speech. Beyond that, though the NFL gave in to Trump and passed a new rule that says players have to stand for the anthem if on the field, there is a thing the players and owners signed called a collective bargaining agreement, which stipulates no such thing. Which is why the player's association is legitimately fighting the new rule. The NBA (a far, far more progressive league) DOES have this rule in place, but the players were willing to agree to it because they believe the NBA makes up for it in other areas of social outreach and allows their players to speak out about whatever they want without being criticized.

    ThacoBell
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 5,370



    Too many people were more concerned about the Access Hollywood sound byte than there were about *actual* problems. This also highlights Obama's lack of ability to think three moves ahead like a chess player when it came to national security. Obama was scared of Putin--he didn't do anything about Crimea and he didn't do anything about the hacking. The hacking and use of fake media stories on social media outlets like Facebook--which gladly cashed all the checks the Russian troll farms gave them for the privilege of posting deliberately false news items--should have been front page news the moment it was discovered, politics be damned.


    This is quite possibly the most tired of all political tropes. "Blame Obama". It's virtually's everyone's get out of jail card.

    Clinton didnt win. Obama isnt in office in anymore. Everyone made mistakes, but to attempt to boil down the current controversy into "Obama should have done more! He's the real one at fault!" is patently ridiculous. He tried to avoid putting his finger on the scale in an administrative sense during an election. Maybe he was wrong not to do so, but let's not forget that Trump is knee deep in this s**t, and has been since 2015.

    Also, the Access Hollywood tape wasnt an *actual* problem? Gloating about sexual assault is a problem no matter who does it. Man. Woman. President of the United States.

    Everyone.
    Not really my buisness, but putting "Blame Obama" inside of air quotes, as if the very idea that he can be held responsible for anything is silly, isn't an argument. It seems like the left in general dismiss offhand any criticism of any left leaning politician the moment they leave office. And while they are in office they don't care and don't listen anyways. Interesting dynamic, that.

    And the idea that he didn't try to put his finger on the scale during an election is simply incorrect. It is not hard to find any number of attacks on Trump from Obama during the election, or his encouraging people to vote against Trump, it is very clear from his actions he was trying to influence the election as much as anyone.

    I'm going on a completely irrelevant tangent here, but this meme that left wing retirees from government can't be criticized anymore irks me. When Obama was murdering kids with drones and increasing their use by 10x then what was done under Bush and redefining innocents as enemy combatants and lying to the press about the real innocent death counts and eviscerating civil liberties to the point of codifying the act of indefinite detention without trial we heard but a fraction of the screeching and hysterical rhetoric than we have for any number of Trump pseudo-scandals whether it be a still evidence free Trump-Russia conspiracy or illegal migrant children not being put into prison with their criminal parents. Trump Derangement Syndrome.

    And yes, i'm "blaming Obama" for his policies again, how silly of me I know, which still have an effect to this day. The twisted, evil act of labeling innocents as enemy combatants so they can be recklessly slaughtered free of political backlash that he began the process of doing has never been reversed. He set up a whole system of streamlined arrests and killings decided almost entirely by the executive branch and the effects of that one will likely be felt decades later as they grow and are eventually abused. No need for a trial, no need for anything other than a rubber stamp and you can be literally murdered and it has happened. This is an Obama legacy. We can act like it doesn't matter, but fact is, we all know if this was a Trump move the press and many people would act like it's the end of the Republic and the beginning of fascism.

    Some of these programs, having been expanded and made less accountable under Obama, are now in the hands of Trump and getting bigger still. The consequences of a president last beyond that president, and the previous one in particular left some real pitfalls for the country down the road. Real ones, like matters of life and death and the existence of basic evidence-based justice for everyone.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/under-obama-men-killed-by-drones-are-presumed-to-be-terrorists/257749/

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/america-dropped-26171-bombs-2016-obama-legacy
    All good reasons to hate Obama and all (and the parallels to the Vietnam war as history repeats itself is intriguing) but what does any of this have to do with Russia, the thing that Obama is being blamed for here?

    America’s relation with Russia is at its lowest, allegedly, because Obama was weak against Putin and did ‘nothing’ after Crimea incident and after he learnt of Russia’s hacking. Both of those statements are false and I am still waiting for a reply on what any president could have done differently after the Crimea annexation.

    I can probably tell you that Trump shouldn’t have pushed Russia to be back part of the G8 as that is why they were kicked out in the first place. I’ll put Trump down as ignorant of recent history on why he actually suggested such a thing instead of being in the pocket of Putin.

    Both terms “blame Obama” and the new buzz phrase, “Trump Derangement Syndrome” are deflections. They are an attempt to discredit the person making the statement for a biased opinion instead of directly answering the accusation put forth and just gets people talking in circles.

    ThacoBell
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 213
    edited July 21



    I'm going on a completely irrelevant tangent here, but this meme that left wing retirees from government can't be criticized anymore irks me. When Obama was murdering kids with drones and increasing their use by 10x then what was done under Bush and redefining innocents as enemy combatants and lying to the press about the real innocent death counts and eviscerating civil liberties to the point of codifying the act of indefinite detention without trial we heard but a fraction of the screeching and hysterical rhetoric than we have for any number of Trump pseudo-scandals whether it be a still evidence free Trump-Russia conspiracy or illegal migrant children not being put into prison with their criminal parents. Trump Derangement Syndrome.

    And yes, i'm "blaming Obama" for his policies again, how silly of me I know, which still have an effect to this day. The twisted, evil act of labeling innocents as enemy combatants so they can be recklessly slaughtered free of political backlash that he began the process of doing has never been reversed. He set up a whole system of streamlined arrests and killings decided almost entirely by the executive branch and the effects of that one will likely be felt decades later as they grow and are eventually abused. No need for a trial, no need for anything other than a rubber stamp and you can be literally murdered and it has happened. This is an Obama legacy. We can act like it doesn't matter, but fact is, we all know if this was a Trump move the press and many people would act like it's the end of the Republic and the beginning of fascism.


    Utter mischaracterization of my point. First - I was talking about not putting his finger on the scale in an administrative sense. I. E - directing the federal institutions of the country to attack and discredit his opponent. For example - starting bogus investigations, or other entirely corrupt processes that other pseudo-democratic states use. (although now that I think of it, maybe that's not bogus anymore? I'm looking at you, congressional Benghazi investigations that have disappeared the second the election ended...)

    So no. He campaigned for his former secretary of state. He didnt attack the election from an institutional perspective. His *administration* didnt put a finger on the scale.

    Second - still incredibly old hat. You can go off on as many unrelated tangents about what Obama did or didnt do, we're specifically talking about Russian meddling in the election and his role in that. Everything else isnt germane to the conversation. In trying to avoid the appearance of institutional bias, he avoided doing more. Was that a mistake? Maybe. He could have been clearer about what was going on - at the risk of potentially de-legitimizing an election (which funnily enough - is now de-legitimizing itself based on all of this crap). It still is used as an attempt to deflect away from the source of the issue, and that's Trump's complicated and potentially illegal relationship with Russia. Every attempt to cast that away and put it on Obama only serves to undermine the integrity of democracy.

    Post edited by BallpointMan on
    Grond0smeagolheartThacoBell
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 5,028
    edited July 21
    "or illegal migrant children not being put into prison with their criminal parents"

    How many examples have to be provided of people who were legally seeking asylum having the same thing happen to them, or that (even in the circumstances where it happened) crossing the border illegally the first time is a functional equivalent of jaywalking. These people are "criminals" the same way everyone here is who has ever had a speeding ticket or not waited for a the walk light to come on while crossing the street.

    If we want to talk about breaking the law, let's discuss the Administration simply flat-out IGNORING court orders that set deadlines to reunite the parents with their children. Law and order my ass.

    Grond0ThacoBell
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,486

    I'm going on a completely irrelevant tangent here, but this meme that left wing retirees from government can't be criticized anymore irks me. When Obama was murdering kids with drones and increasing their use by 10x then what was done under Bush and redefining innocents as enemy combatants and lying to the press about the real innocent death counts and eviscerating civil liberties to the point of codifying the act of indefinite detention without trial we heard but a fraction of the screeching and hysterical rhetoric than we have for any number of Trump pseudo-scandals whether it be a still evidence free Trump-Russia conspiracy or illegal migrant children not being put into prison with their criminal parents. Trump Derangement Syndrome.

    I've made the argument in this thread several times that the way drones have been used is illegal, so I'm very happy to agree that Obama should be criticized for that. It's not my main reason for posting, but I'll just revisit briefly one of the points I've made before about this type of short-cut to projecting force. The US has a history of using 'dirty tricks' campaigns (and I know many other countries do as well) as a cheap and easy method of trying to achieve international objectives. The problem with this is that the methods only work well as long as other people don't know who's responsible. When that knowledge eventually leaks out it may well be the case that this produces results much worse than those the original actions were intended to prevent - you can see that in the history of foreign interference in Iran for instance. Russia in recent years has used similar methods, which would appear to have been very effective. It's still early in the game though and it will be interesting to look back in 20 years time to see what the impact has been of their interference in foreign elections and destabilization of neighboring countries (such as the Ukraine). At the moment I think there's a good chance those actions will be seen as having been disastrous for Russia.

    I have to agree with others that the way you're presenting the argument about Obama - effectively that 'they're all the same' is not a useful response to abuses that are going on now.

    I don't want to get into right vs left arguments, but in relation to Trump specifically I'm certainly ready to argue that he is not a fit person to be President. He habitually uses several tactics that I strongly disapprove of and one of those is to create a label for any dubious behavior he demonstrates and then use that label to attack as many other people as possible to make it more difficult for him to be attacked for doing the same. We've seen that for a long time with 'fake news' for instance - Trump's attempt to deflect attention from the quite astonishing volume of lies he tells. Trump Derangement Syndrome is simply the latest in this line. During his Presidency Trump has regularly attacked Obama's policies. In some cases such attacks are perfectly understandable from the point of view of political differences, but the attacks go beyond that to a level that's very hard to explain without assuming a personal rather than political motivation.

    smeagolheartThacoBell
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 5,831
    edited July 21
    Good point. I'd wager Obama strongly disagreed with a lot of the stuff Bush did but Obama didn't go around saying stupid nicknames like "Moron Bush" or lying like "no collusion, no collusion, Bush was the collusion!".

    I'd agree Obamas ratcheting up the drone wars and things like not closing Guantanamo are big time failures. In think we were all hoping whomever came after would cut it out not make it worse.

    Obama wasn't perfect, I'd give him maybe i don't know 77/100%. Trump? I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and say 40/100% but I can literally think of almost nothing he's done or any redeeming qualities so he'd actually deserve significantly less than that. I guess signing the flawed budget was the least horrible thing he's done and he's trying to undo that and take it back so it kind of doesn't go in the good column. Putting aside policy his personal character is repulsive - lying, greedy, mean spirited, narcicistic braggart. I don't admire any of those qualities at all. Point is we're comparing a relatively good guy wiyy a few flaws who tried with .... well... someone who is personally gross and mean spirited who is doing all he can to destroy the middle and lower classes and enrich himself and lying about it using racist identity politics while doing so pitting people against each other.

    Article linked below from one example but quite a few prominent conservatives are real life (not fake Russian bot) #walkaway from GOP because of Trump (Scarborough, Ohio GOP chairman, Comey, others)

    This conservative would take Obama back in a nanosecond By Max Boot. (foreign policy adviser to John McCain in 2008 and to Mitt Romney in 2012)
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2018/07/20/how-i-miss-obama/

    Post edited by smeagolheart on
    Grond0
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 5,028
    edited July 21
    In regards to our military foreign policy and drones.....let's examine everyone in the last 3 Administrations. Bush didn't really need drone strikes because he launched full-scale ground wars and occupations of two Middle Eastern countries. One we have never gotten out of, one we were stuck in for well over half a decade. Obama pulled out of Iraq, initially escalated in Afghanistan and then did a huge draw-down later, and, rather than launching full-scale invasions of countries, did rely heavily on drone strikes. Which I have a problem with. But if someone DOES have a problem with drone strikes, then Trump is by ANY measure way, way, WAY worse:

    https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2017-12-19/counterrorism-strikes-double-trump-first-year

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/mideast/u-s-airstrikes-yemen-have-increased-sixfold-under-trump-n843886

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/23/us-air-wars-trump

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/middle-east-civilian-deaths-have-soared-under-trump-and-the-media-mostly-shrug/2018/03/16/fc344968-2932-11e8-874b-d517e912f125_story.html?utm_term=.012bbcd48035

    These aren't small increases under Trump. They are astronomically large increases by any measure. And we hear basically nothing about it because he is such a domestic scandal machine. We heard PLENTY of media reporting about Obama's drone strikes in his 8 years, rightfully so. The stories I have shared here are mostly unknown because Trump has gotten a completely free pass on this, just like he did with the abject disaster in Puerto Rico that is still ongoing. He is for whatever reason totally inoculated from this issue. There is a pervasive myth that Trump is somehow less hawkish in regards to Middle East policy, and it simply isn't true. It just is being totally ignored. And the idea sold during the campaign that he would be was always totally absurd. Trump's fake isolationist stance in regards to military action during the campaign was nothing more than him realizing that Republican primary voters wanted a conscience-free absolution for being dead-wrong about Iraq for the entire Bush Administration.

    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
    semiticgodGrond0
This discussion has been closed.