6) Just so everyone is aware, if those extra columns in profsmax work the way I think they do, it's going to lead me to revise how this component works. Until that point, I'm not planning to do much work on the existing, soon-to-be obsolete version. If there are actual bugs I'll try to fix them, but stuff like slight disagreement between the mod and the readme, you're going to have to live with - as long as the mod is functional and makes the game more fun than vanilla.
For what it's worth, I like setting restrictions on when characters can get x number of pips in any weapon. That's the reason I like your revised system better than vanilla. It doesn't make sense to me that a level 1 paladin (for example) with 2 pips in Long Swords is as experienced with that weapon as he will ever get. To me, it makes a lot of sense to be familiar with a weapon and then as character experience grows, he also becomes more capable with the intricacies of any given weapon type. That and the meta-gaming reason are why I use it.
That said, too bad the proficiency system doesn't work with non-EE games. 'Course, once EET is available, I'll most likely completely switch to EE so not a huge deal. Would just be nice to have it in my current BGT game.
@subtledoctor Thanks for the in-depth answer! Sorry about my dumb questions - I've also never played a three-way multiclass before.
So I went and looked at weapprof.2da, and I found that FMCs are indeed restricted to 3 stars in Longsword, Shortsword, Axe, Twohandedsword, Scimitarwaikizashininjato, Dagger, Warhammer, Club, Spear, Flailmorningstar, Mace, Quarterstaff, Crossbow, Shortbow, and Sling. (Also, 2 each in 2handed and Singleweapon, 4 in Blunt, Spiked, and Missile but I assume those are deprecated.) Didn't even realise there was this file, so that explains what I'm experiencing.
Can I ask if this was intended? I expected 4 based on the Readme. (I don't know why I so want to play what was intended. I guess I want to experience the "spirit" of your mod true to its design.)
Edit: NM on the halberd proficiencies. You merged them into a single Spear/Halberd proficiency, according to the Readme. A lot of my halberds are unusable by a lot of classes though (restricted to Fighters, F/Ms, F/M/Ts, F/Ts, Paladins, Rangers), but I don't know if that's a SoB thing or some other mod I'm using gone rogue.
@hippofant I think those are the only classes that can use halberds in vanilla... right? Not sure. Anyway I think all SoB does is change their proficiency to 'spear' from 'halberd.'
As for the weapprof limits for triple classes, it might just be an oversight on my part. I can change the limit to 4 if it should be 4. And in the meantime, you can simply change those values yourself with NI.
Oh yes, I think so, but the SoB readme said that clerics could now use all weapons, and it seemed to be true for everything other than my halberds. I've also had some other conflicts between item mods and kit mods due to a funky way the engine interprets things if you check off a lot of kits that can't use an item - I think? Not really a mod expert, but that's what my experimentation has pointed to - so I wasn't sure if what I was experiencing was intentional or not.
Yeah, I can fix the proficiency limit problem easily. The halberd thing I can't - don't know how to modify all the halberds in the game at once - but I can just edit the halberds I do want to use as needed if I want.
Thanks for all the work you put into this mod. It's definitely refreshing my experience of this really old game! (Also extending my knowledge of BG modding too )
I just "remembered" why I thought that the proficiencies system of SoB didn't work for non-EE games. It's because I use Big World Setup and it doesn't allow that component to be selected and installed.
If I tried to install just that component after the install is done, would it pretty much wreck everything?
Just installed (Via BWS for any difference that makes) and can see no difference in character statistics between a fresh character with 3 charisma and a fresh character with 18 charisma
Just installed (Via BWS for any difference that makes) and can see no difference in character statistics between a fresh character with 3 charisma and a fresh character with 18 charisma
Wondering the same thing here. +2 Luck is tremendously powerful. From what I gather, it basicly makes you crit on rolls of 18 & 19 as well.
Wow, I'm learning about some amazing new stuff we can do with 2.0: - Wisdom-based AC bonuses for monks - Dex-based melee thac0 bonuses for rogues - better-implemented Luck bonuses for Charisma - possibly, Int-based bonus weapon proficiencies - possibly, extra APR for Single-Weapon Style...?
So many possibilities - !
Safe to say, the next version of this mod is going to be EE-only...
This is really nice. I know its a though step to no longer maintain the old games, but I think with SoD released it is the right one (just my opinion). With new modding option it will be very hard to use them and keep it compatible with old BG series. And not using them would be a shame.
- Dex-based melee thac0 bonuses for rogues Would it be possible to make this available as part of a proficiencies? I think this would be very nice as part of Single- and Dual-Weapon style
Or maybe with the reworked proficiencie-system we could have new styles like:
Strength based fighting -> Extra THACO from high STR, maybe reduce base THAC0 and give bonus for proficiencies.
Acrobatic fighting style -> Extra THACO from high DEX and extra piercing damage from blades? etc.
Just wondering what those who use SoD think of the various components of the mod. In general, I really like it. I like the stat changes because it's nice to not be superheroes to get some small bonuses to their abilities instead of the great sameness of a wide range of average stats. That said, I do kind of miss the difference between the various 18 STR bonuses. The linear scale makes sense, but it just seems odd that a guy with 18 Strength is no different than a guy with 18/92 Strength. Probably just because I'm so used to the old system. But, I can't really figure out a way to tweak that without messing it up. I'm not sure all that's involved, but how about initiative or speed differences. Perhaps that 18+ strength helps a character be a little faster than a "normal" 18 STR without doing more damage. I don't know; just wondering out loud.
Probably my favorite component is the new proficiency system. I like the idea that I can start off with basic knowledge about a bunch of weapons, and then improve certain weapon skills as I get access to weapons of that type. Always bothered me to take 2-Handed Swords for my paladin just because I know the Holy Avenger is a 2-handed weapon ... or even worse, not taking it and then not being able to use it effectively.
I'm interested in seeing the difference in the magic resistance change but haven't gotten far enough to get a feel for it.
There is one change I'm not sure sure how I feel about though, the change for the CON stat bonus and HP system, maybe because it's so much more different from the vanilla system than the others (or so it seems to me). The 2 things that I'm not sure about is that having 18 CON gives max hp. True, most NPCs won't have that so it's not a huge difference. Bigger is that it also grants regeneration. So, after a huge battle with your PC half-dead and out of healing spells, you can just leave and go to a new area and he's back to full HP. Just seems like it's too easy. Maybe in practice, it isn't.
Anyway, please don't mistake this as complaining. I'm just curious what others think and what components of the mod are used most. Personally, I'm using all of it except the HP changes and I've done my own modified NWN-level up system.
Anyway, I appreciate the effort on the mod and the chance for us to try out different things to suit our own preferences.
That is precisely what happens. When you wield the bastard sword in one hand, it operates under the longsword proficiency. When you wield it in two hands, it operates under the 2-handed swords proficiency.
Hmm. I'm not seeing that. Just checked it again and with proficiency in Great Swords but NOT Long Swords, the bastard sword has a THAC0 of 20 in both 1-handed and 2-handed mode. With the Great Sword proficiency, it should be 18 in 2-handed mode.
Yes, this is also what I'm seeing. I too have the 2-handed katanas and bastard swords component from CDTweaks installed before. In either version, bastard swords seem to be using the longsword proficiency.
A couple questions.
- Are sorcerers not meant to get bonus spells from high INT by design or is it an oversight? If it is by design, then it means INT is indeed a dump stat for sorcerers, as they don't have much use for extra crit either.
- In the readme it says "So the only way to score critical hits is to have 15 or greater INT, or to have points in Single-Weapon Style or Two-Handed Style." - but only Finesse improves crit chance, the revised 2-handed style is flat +thac0 and dmg. So in order to have any chance to crit, it appears frontliners *need* 15 INT, if the revised styles are also installed.
- What does Saving Throw Overhaul do, exactly? It's not documented in the readme. I take it, whatever it does, it's probably not compatible with the expanded saving throw tables for shorties from aTweaks?
- Paladins not getting save bonuses from high CHA is supposed to be offset by their innate +2, right? Problem is currently a fighter with 19 CHA has much better saves than a paladin with the same stat, while at the same time being better at... fighting. Plus luck bonuses!
Pretty sweet mod. If I can get the bastard sword thing sorted out, it will probably end up replacing CDTweaks as far as prof rebalancing goes for me.
Yup, it's totally compatible. This mostly just changes which saving throw is used for which spell. So if your shorty has great bonuses to saves vs Spells, but not to saves vs. Petrification, then you can resist charms and illusions but not Slow or Hold. It aims to make saving throws a bit more balanced and tactical.
That sounds great. I'm thinking maybe not compatible with Spell Revisions, though? Does this change saving throws based on school or on a spell by spell basis?
Yeah, but unless you're a total cheeseball munchkin, raising a fighter's CHA to 19 means seriously sacrificing other important stats, like STR or DEX or CON. Whereas, paladins tend to have higher stat rolls and so can easily compensate.
Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I'm really not a fan of enforced "minimum" rolls, for paladins or anyone. Ideally a paladin would have a way to benefit from a high CHA score beyond, uh, reaction rolls and store prices, much like a fighter benefits directly from high STR and a thief from high DEX. Conversely, roll a paladin with 6 CHA, and enjoy your crappy fighter saves and gimped proficiencies -- basically a kitted fighter with some situational abilities (except Inquisitor Dispel, that's plain unfair). Funny because in vanilla you can roll a 9 STR fighter, but not a 9 CHA or WIS pally.
I guess I just found it weird that it works for everyone except paladins, the exact opposite behavior I'm used to from the 3E+ class.
Speaking of paladins, WEAPPROF.2DA has paladins limited to (+) on Two-Handed Style. It's not documented in the readme, either. WAI?
As an aside, this has to be one of the more interesting mods I've seen. Looking forward to future iterations!
Subtledoctor, possible bug note for the MRO: my level 1 wizard slayer has a point of magic resistance, and seems to have the same saves as a level 1 fighter with the same stats (though I'm not totally sure about that). I don't know what that means about the rest of the MRO. I uninstalled and reinstalled that component, and the same thing happened with a new character.
The stat overhauls and weapon style changes are working, and they are awesome!
Bgee 2.1, not a pre-generated character. Lots of mods: bg1 npc project, bg1ub, coran/xan/ajantis friendships, bg minor quests, IR and SR, the might and guile multiclass kit component, a couple minor item mods, tweaks anthology, scs, a couple of things from atweaks, npc ee. I installed the MRO after everything but npc ee.
It happened when I made a fighter/thief that I gave a WS kit to by means of your npc ee mod, so I made a regular WS to see if that was it, but the same thing happened.
Comments
That said, too bad the proficiency system doesn't work with non-EE games. 'Course, once EET is available, I'll most likely completely switch to EE so not a huge deal. Would just be nice to have it in my current BGT game.
So I went and looked at weapprof.2da, and I found that FMCs are indeed restricted to 3 stars in Longsword, Shortsword, Axe, Twohandedsword, Scimitarwaikizashininjato, Dagger, Warhammer, Club, Spear, Flailmorningstar, Mace, Quarterstaff, Crossbow, Shortbow, and Sling. (Also, 2 each in 2handed and Singleweapon, 4 in Blunt, Spiked, and Missile but I assume those are deprecated.) Didn't even realise there was this file, so that explains what I'm experiencing.
Can I ask if this was intended? I expected 4 based on the Readme. (I don't know why I so want to play what was intended. I guess I want to experience the "spirit" of your mod true to its design.)
Edit: NM on the halberd proficiencies. You merged them into a single Spear/Halberd proficiency, according to the Readme. A lot of my halberds are unusable by a lot of classes though (restricted to Fighters, F/Ms, F/M/Ts, F/Ts, Paladins, Rangers), but I don't know if that's a SoB thing or some other mod I'm using gone rogue.
Yeah, I can fix the proficiency limit problem easily. The halberd thing I can't - don't know how to modify all the halberds in the game at once - but I can just edit the halberds I do want to use as needed if I want.
Thanks for all the work you put into this mod. It's definitely refreshing my experience of this really old game! (Also extending my knowledge of BG modding too
If I tried to install just that component after the install is done, would it pretty much wreck everything?
@subtledoctor This time it was overlook, now those components can be also selected for BGT.
Just installed (Via BWS for any difference that makes) and can see no difference in character statistics between a fresh character with 3 charisma and a fresh character with 18 charisma
With new modding option it will be very hard to use them and keep it compatible with old BG series.
And not using them would be a shame.
- Dex-based melee thac0 bonuses for rogues
Would it be possible to make this available as part of a proficiencies?
I think this would be very nice as part of Single- and Dual-Weapon style
Or maybe with the reworked proficiencie-system we could have new styles like:
Strength based fighting
-> Extra THACO from high STR, maybe reduce base THAC0 and give bonus for proficiencies.
Acrobatic fighting style
-> Extra THACO from high DEX and extra piercing damage from blades?
etc.
Just brainstorming loudly
Probably my favorite component is the new proficiency system. I like the idea that I can start off with basic knowledge about a bunch of weapons, and then improve certain weapon skills as I get access to weapons of that type. Always bothered me to take 2-Handed Swords for my paladin just because I know the Holy Avenger is a 2-handed weapon ... or even worse, not taking it and then not being able to use it effectively.
I'm interested in seeing the difference in the magic resistance change but haven't gotten far enough to get a feel for it.
There is one change I'm not sure sure how I feel about though, the change for the CON stat bonus and HP system, maybe because it's so much more different from the vanilla system than the others (or so it seems to me). The 2 things that I'm not sure about is that having 18 CON gives max hp. True, most NPCs won't have that so it's not a huge difference. Bigger is that it also grants regeneration. So, after a huge battle with your PC half-dead and out of healing spells, you can just leave and go to a new area and he's back to full HP. Just seems like it's too easy. Maybe in practice, it isn't.
Anyway, please don't mistake this as complaining. I'm just curious what others think and what components of the mod are used most. Personally, I'm using all of it except the HP changes and I've done my own modified NWN-level up system.
Anyway, I appreciate the effort on the mod and the chance for us to try out different things to suit our own preferences.
A couple questions.
- Are sorcerers not meant to get bonus spells from high INT by design or is it an oversight? If it is by design, then it means INT is indeed a dump stat for sorcerers, as they don't have much use for extra crit either.
- In the readme it says "So the only way to score critical hits is to have 15 or greater INT, or to have points in Single-Weapon Style or Two-Handed Style." - but only Finesse improves crit chance, the revised 2-handed style is flat +thac0 and dmg. So in order to have any chance to crit, it appears frontliners *need* 15 INT, if the revised styles are also installed.
- What does Saving Throw Overhaul do, exactly? It's not documented in the readme. I take it, whatever it does, it's probably not compatible with the expanded saving throw tables for shorties from aTweaks?
- Paladins not getting save bonuses from high CHA is supposed to be offset by their innate +2, right? Problem is currently a fighter with 19 CHA has much better saves than a paladin with the same stat, while at the same time being better at... fighting. Plus luck bonuses!
Pretty sweet mod. If I can get the bastard sword thing sorted out, it will probably end up replacing CDTweaks as far as prof rebalancing goes for me.
That sounds great. I'm thinking maybe not compatible with Spell Revisions, though? Does this change saving throws based on school or on a spell by spell basis?
Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I'm really not a fan of enforced "minimum" rolls, for paladins or anyone. Ideally a paladin would have a way to benefit from a high CHA score beyond, uh, reaction rolls and store prices, much like a fighter benefits directly from high STR and a thief from high DEX. Conversely, roll a paladin with 6 CHA, and enjoy your crappy fighter saves and gimped proficiencies -- basically a kitted fighter with some situational abilities (except Inquisitor Dispel, that's plain unfair). Funny because in vanilla you can roll a 9 STR fighter, but not a 9 CHA or WIS pally.
I guess I just found it weird that it works for everyone except paladins, the exact opposite behavior I'm used to from the 3E+ class.
Speaking of paladins, WEAPPROF.2DA has paladins limited to (+) on Two-Handed Style. It's not documented in the readme, either. WAI?
As an aside, this has to be one of the more interesting mods I've seen. Looking forward to future iterations!
The stat overhauls and weapon style changes are working, and they are awesome!
It happened when I made a fighter/thief that I gave a WS kit to by means of your npc ee mod, so I made a regular WS to see if that was it, but the same thing happened.
How did you add the new Bonuses to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma that don't already exist as options in the stat 2da files?