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Why Cavaliers are Weak

Poison immunity does not include spells like Poison and Cloudkill.

Charm immunity does not include Dire Charm or Domination. Who casts just Charm?

I want to be more immune to those things. I've taken the vow of chastity, I've consumed demon poop to build up my immunity. Come on man.

DexterFredjoBlackravenQuartzNimranRAM021
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Comments

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    bengoshi said:

    I would never call them weak (they are known good choices for no-reload runs).

    They are just not OP, and this is a big difference.

    /thread
    Lateralus said:

    bengoshi said:

    I would never call them weak (they are known good choices for no-reload runs).

    They are just not OP, and this is a big difference.

    A siren ended my solo no-reload run. It was a bittersweet death. Forsaken by his god, or rewarded? Discuss this....
    You'll know better next time.

    JuliusBorisov
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903

    bengoshi said:

    I would never call them weak (they are known good choices for no-reload runs).

    They are just not OP, and this is a big difference.

    /thread
    Lateralus said:

    bengoshi said:

    I would never call them weak (they are known good choices for no-reload runs).

    They are just not OP, and this is a big difference.

    A siren ended my solo no-reload run. It was a bittersweet death. Forsaken by his god, or rewarded? Discuss this....
    You'll know better next time.

    You got THAT right, pal. My berserker/thief needs no flawed god. Sil is gonna make me a sammich

    cognoscentusbooinyoureyesQuartzNimran
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    It's a degree thing. Charm is resistible, but dire charm is not. Dire charm is a more powerful spell. That's all. Same with poisons. Regular poisons are resistible, magical poisons are not.

    Considering that you end up with the Holy avenger, just to name one perk at random, I think it is a reasonable trade off.

    (FYI, I am not commenting on how the Rules play, merely providing a plausible explanation of the apparent disparity)

    Jairyannabooinyoureyeskaguana
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903

    It's a degree thing. Charm is resistible, but dire charm is not. Dire charm is a more powerful spell. That's all. Same with poisons. Regular poisons are resistible, magical poisons are not.

    Considering that you end up with the Holy avenger, just to name one perk at random, I think it is a reasonable trade off.

    (FYI, I am not commenting on how the Rules play, merely providing a plausible explanation of the apparent disparity)

    Feedback appreciated as always. They are just weak, underpowered actually. The berserker/thief will not only wield the holy avenger, but MASTER the use of two-handed swords. And, all the while, be immune to powerful charm effects for 10 rounds, twice daily. No alignment restrictions, I mean the cavalier is one misused fireball spell away from losing EVERYTHING and for what? Immunity to a spell an ogre-mage mighy cast once every 100 playthroughs?

    RAM021
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    If their charm and poison immunities had a broader reach. I would agree.

    RAM021Klorox
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Just the immunity to fear is enough for the limitations in my book. How many times has an enemy mage cast horror on your group? Cavaliers not only are immune to that effect (an ability that can't be removed by enemy spell fire for SCS users) but they can remove fear effects from his/her party.

    I suspect that you got bit by the lack of protection from Dire Charm. That sucks. But I think it is jading your perspective to the abilities in totality.

    Either way, you are entitled to your opinion.

  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    edited August 2014
    Its a fact that the charm immunity is useless, thats not my opinion, its a fact. Whos casts charm, ever? What are the odds that it will come in handy one time? They need to beef it up or eliminate it entirely, it's embarrassing the way it is now.

    The fear thing is nice, and a given for that kit.

    The kit is fatally flawed because they cant stand toe to toe with a demon and stand a chance. Go ahead, hit level 8 and tank Albert. Lemme know how that works out for ya.

    Edit

    Or try to resist the charms of a succubus. Lol

    Post edited by Lateralus on
    RAM021
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
    I've won the game several times with a Cavalier as my main character. Really, its probably my favorite class/kit.

    Of course I'm not much interested in the power stuff; I like ROLE PLAYING the Cavalier....

    booinyoureyesJuliusBorisovNimranMoomintroll
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @Lateralus - you premise is flawed. You claim that cavaliers are weak because one of their abilities is weak. Take it as written that ability is weak or useless and you still have a powerful character.

  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    atcDave said:

    I've won the game several times with a Cavalier as my main character. Really, its probably my favorite class/kit.

    Of course I'm not much interested in the power stuff; I like ROLE PLAYING the Cavalier....

    Thuroughly enjoyable class to play, which is why I wont sit idly when it's not being honored. Hell I don't even allow my party to KILL without just cause, and that includes knocking Shank and. Corbos out to start with. Nobody is allowed to steal or break and entry. We donate until it hurts. And I am the only one I want in harms way. Fear immunity can help draw you into character while being reduced to a thumb sucking imbecile whilst staring at a siren shatters every tale ever sung of a cavaliers stoicism.

    Eadwyn_G8keeper
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903

    @Lateralus - you premise is flawed. You claim that cavaliers are weak because one of their abilities is weak. Take it as written that ability is weak or useless and you still have a powerful character.

    If they are so balanced or "powerful" then just eliminate it completely, I would rather it didn't exist at all rather than in it's useless capacity.

    RAM021
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    I think an argument could be made that the ability should be worded more clearly. I always assumed Cavaliers were immune to the 'Charm' subschool, but not to 'Compulsion' type spells like Domination. Never played a Cav in BG1, looked too easy.

    Anyways, if you are immune to the spell Charm Person, that should be explicitly stated.

    As for the Cloudkill spell, if you think you should be immune to the damage, just edit via Keeper. *shrug*

  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,287
    While I agree with what seems to be the majority here that the Cavalier isn't a weak character just because of his apparently underwhelming charm/poison immunities, I think that @Lateralus makes a valid criticism of the kit. I didn't know (and now I find it disappointing to know) that Cavaliers still need charm protection when fighting Sirines, Vampires and some wzards. I vaguely recall that there was a technical explanation for the Cavalier's limited poison immunity, that was reasonably satisfactory to me.

    Either way, if I turn @bengoshi's reasoning around, and ask myself whether the Cavalier with 'full' charm/poison immunity would be OP, I think my answer is would be 'no', at least not if I compare with other classes. The Inquisitor would continue to be the most powerful Paladin kit I think, and there would still be other more powerful classes and kits (Berserker, Sorcerer, Mage, Blade for example, as well as a number of multiclass combos).

    JuliusBorisov
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    Maybe it's different in the first game? I don't have a PC cavalier that often, but I do like the Isra mod, and she's never needed a helm of charm protection to take on Vampires in the second game. Pretty sure she's immune to Cloudkill damage too. Maybe they scale those abilities in some weird way, similar to Totemic spirit animals or something.

    BlackravenCrevsDaak
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,463
    Playing one now.

    The 20% resist to fire and acid is very beneficial, more so than the magical poison immunity. Remove fear is also nice, plus it gets all of the regular paladins abilities as well unlike the Inquisitor.

    It is my opinion that it doesn't beat the immunity to level drain and hold that the undead hunter get though.

    Most of their benefits do not come into play until BG2 though, so they can be considered weak in BG1. They curve upward as the trilogy progresses though.

    atcDave
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018

    Either way, if I turn @bengoshi's reasoning around, and ask myself whether the Cavalier with 'full' charm/poison immunity would be OP, I think my answer is would be 'no', at least not if I compare with other classes. The Inquisitor would continue to be the most powerful Paladin kit I think, and there would still be other more powerful classes and kits (Berserker, Sorcerer, Mage, Blade for example, as well as a number of multiclass combos).

    But take it from the other direction. If the charm/poison immunity were removed from the class entirely, would that make the character un-playable? If the answer is yes then I would buy "Cavalier is weak because..." Failing that, Cavalier is a solid character. The ABILITY of immunity to charm "as portrayed in the Cavalier class ability" is weak.

    It's like saying that Figher/Magic Users are weak because they can't get weapon mastery. Yes, it's a nice to have but no one would agree that F/M are a weak class.

    It sucks sometimes when our expectations of a class or ability or character in general fails. It doesn't mean that that an otherwise well rounded character is weak because of one specific failing (unless it is something pretty big, which this isn't).

    BlackravenJuliusBorisov
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,287
    @the_spyder, let there be no misunderstanding, like I said in the first sentence of my previous post, I do not consider the Cavalier weak because of what can arguably be considered as flaws in their immunities. I merely expressed my empathy with @Lateralus' disappointment with these 'flaws'. (Not sure if they should be called flaws as I'm not sure of the pnp rules or the game developers' intentions).

    the_spyder
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @Blackraven - Understood. I only dragged you into it because you seemed to have a grasp on exactly the point I was making and was using your example to counter off of mine.

    And also in sympathy to @Lateralus - I've had moments where characters didn't perform the way I expected and then felt that moment of disillusionment. It can be a hard let down. I feel their pain. I just hope that one let down does not sour experience with what is otherwise a pretty solid character, particularly if they've invested enough time in said character to get to that particular realization.

    Plus, I like underdogs.

    image

    BelgarathMTHJuliusBorisovBlackraven
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,047
    edited August 2014
    Lateralus said:



    The kit is fatally flawed because they cant stand toe to toe with a demon and stand a chance. Go ahead, hit level 8 and tank Albert. Lemme know how that works out for ya.

    Albert has

    -8 AC
    25 strength
    0 Thac0 (-7 with strength bonus)
    102 health
    1d20 (crushing) attack
    2 APR
    and immunity to normal weapons.

    I disagree with you in that you definitely can stand a chance against him.

    The items I am using are

    Oil of Speed, Varscona, Full Plate Mail, Balduran's Helm, Balduran's Cloak, Shield of the Falling Stars (a large shield +1 would be just as effective and I forgot about Pellan's shield since it would be even better here), Ring of protection +2, Destroyer of the Hills, and Boots of Haste (which doesn't really do anything I just like to run really fast). I didn't use any potions of mind focusing which could also bring my AC down further (and exclude the need to use at least one of the harder to find magical items I have listed here). Likewise there are other strength potions and stuff like the potion of power/heroism that I could have used.

    I also could have been using either of the gauntlets for weapon skill/expertise and forgot about them.

    In some of the battles I used Draw Upon Holy Might (innate ability), in others I didn't. I'd say about half of them. I also forgot about casting Protection From Evil.

    Here is a screenshot of my equipment and character. Despite obviously using 5 of the books (I didn't bother with the tome for wisdom but bothered with charisma and intelligence for some reason) and getting a 90 as an initial roll all of my stats are acquirable in the game.

    image

    image

    Results were 7/8 battles I killed him. My best result was 57 health remaining, my worst (besides being dead) was 2 health (two battles had results that were in the 20's and the rest were in the 40 health remaining range).

    Either way he hits like a tank but he is definitely beatable by a cavalier.

    Post edited by elminster on
    atcDaveBelgarathMTH[Deleted User]Vakarian
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,498
    Lateralus said:

    Poison immunity does not include spells like Poison and Cloudkill.

    Charm immunity does not include Dire Charm or Domination. Who casts just Charm?

    I admit that this is rather disappointing, but that still doesn't negate two very useful advantages that cavaliers get:
    1. Immunity to poisons is a lifesaver against spiders and wyverns, the former of which is both a frequent and deadly enemy in BG1.
    2. The ability to not only resist fear, but also to instantly cure it among your party members prevents them from simply running around and getting slaughtered anytime an enemy spellcaster casts "horror" - which a substantial number of casters in the game will do.
    Lateralus said:


    You got THAT right, pal. My berserker/thief needs no flawed god. Sil is gonna make me a sammich

    And Centeol's pets are gonna make you lunch. :-P

    the_spyderjackjackNimran
  • TheElfTheElf Member Posts: 798
    Wait. Cavs can be dominated!? That's so weird, in two pts with one I've never have it happen..

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,047
    edited August 2014
    TheElf said:

    Wait. Cavs can be dominated!? That's so weird, in two pts with one I've never have it happen..

    I'm assuming its because of the "Dire Charm" flag that domination, mental domination, and dire charm have. Its just weird otherwise that it wouldn't work because at least in Near Infinity it looks like the ability (spcl221) protects against "Charm Creature", which is the same effect used by Dire Charm. Maybe @Dee knows more about the mechanics behind this, I'm just totally guessing about the Dire Charm flag.

    Tested it and it looks like dire charm is being blocked.

    Post edited by elminster on
    booinyoureyesjackjack
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 6,278
    I haven't played a Cavalier in BGEE but I did take one all the way through BG2 back in the day. I know for a fact that he was never charmed in that game and that includes vampires and mind-flayers. If dire charm or even domination is working on them I think that it's not intended.

    If it is intended then does that mean the Helm of Charm Protection should only protect against charm person also? That would turn an awesome item into a not much better than regular helm...

    elminsterNimran
  • MaranMaran Member Posts: 42
    edited August 2014
    PERSONALLY...I play Undead Hunters. It fits my roleplay element, and I very much like having immunity to LD and Hold. A bonus +3 h/d against undead is okay up to about level 14...that's where I've seen it drop off. But Undead Hunters can cast their spells...which to me is a boon.

    Hands down the best Paladin is the Inquisitor though. I didn't think it so at first, but I started keeping Keldorn around...noticed his abilities being VERY useful. DM at x2 level? Hell yes. TS pretty much at will? Please sir, may I have some more?

    I'm still more of a Wizard player...and a very good one I like to think. XD

    Kloroxlunar
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