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Why Cavaliers are Weak

2

Comments

  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 1,988
    I was also never charmed while playing a Cavalier. You could raise a bug report or feature request.

    NimranKlorox
  • PibaroPibaro Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,989
    My opinion is very simple.
    I don't think Cavalier is a weak kit, but when you read "immune to charme" and you get charmed it sucks!

    But are you sure Cavalier isn't immune to dire charme?
    I have no idea, but I remember some devs saying that sirine's charme (or maybe another sirine's ability) has two different effects, maybe it's the second one the cavalier's killer.

    JuliusBorisov
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,308
    I played a Cav earlier this year, and don't remember ever getting charmed… I seem to remember that vs the sirens he was held or paralysed on a couple of occasions, but never charmed (he never turned hostile)… likewise, the vamps in BG2 never took him over (although I had to put Minsc down in Bhodi's lair).

  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 679
    elminster said:



    Albert has

    -8 AC
    25 strength
    0 Thac0 (-7 with strength bonus)
    102 health
    1d20 (crushing) attack (+14 strength bonus) = average 24.5
    2 APR
    and immunity to normal weapons.


    You have:
    -9AC. effectively -20 with defender of the hills, full plate vs crushing, DUHM and oil of speed
    125 health
    6 Thac0. Effectively 4 with DUHM (I think).
    12-19 damage +6 (I think) from DUHM = average 21.5
    3 APR with oil of speed.


    Albert will hit you on a roll of 13. You will hit him on a roll of 12. Albert hits slightly harder, but you have an extra attack and the edge in health.

    What is really winning it for you is the combination of defender of the hills with full plate mail boosting your AC vs crushing.

    PibaroRAM021
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,050
    edited August 2014
    karnor00 said:



    You have:
    -9AC. effectively -20 with defender of the hills, full plate vs crushing, DUHM and oil of speed
    125 health
    6 Thac0. Effectively 4 with DUHM (I think).
    12-19 damage +6 (I think) from DUHM = average 21.5
    3 APR with oil of speed.


    Albert will hit you on a roll of 13. You will hit him on a roll of 12. Albert hits slightly harder, but you have an extra attack and the edge in health.

    What is really winning it for you is the combination of defender of the hills with full plate mail boosting your AC vs crushing.

    Ugh math. My weakness. That and forum polls.

    DUHM puts my dexterity up to 21. So thats -1 AC. Defender of the hills is -4 vs crushing. So that brings it to -14 vs crushing. I'm not seeing where you are getting that extra -6. Full Plate Mail doesn't give a bonus vs crushing attacks. -14 means he needs to roll a 7 in order to hit me (70% chance).

    Perhaps you are forgetting that I get +3 Thac0 against him (cavalier remember) so I'd actually hit him on a roll of 11. That is improved to a 10 with DUHM (which raises my strength to 21). That would mean a 55% chance of me hitting him.

    DUHM boots strength to 21, which gives 2 extra damage not 6. I do however get +3 damage against him that isn't listed there. With DUHM that is an average of 20.5 damage.

    He on the otherhand has an average of 24.5 damage (10.5 + 14).

    However, he doesn't have a helmet. I do. That 5% chance of me getting a critical hit factors into this as well (after 3 rounds I have a 37% chance of hitting him with a critical hit).

    I could get the same result as using the girdle that I'd get if I were to instead use Protection from Evil and DUHM + a Mind Focussing Potion + potion of defence. Its not really saving me its just more convenient.

    At the end of the day though all I had to do was stand a chance. Giving me an extra 15% chance of hitting him (+3 Thac0) helped in that. Along with the gear of course.

    Post edited by elminster on
    Pibarojackjackbooinyoureyes
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903

    Lateralus said:

    Poison immunity does not include spells like Poison and Cloudkill.

    Charm immunity does not include Dire Charm or Domination. Who casts just Charm?

    I admit that this is rather disappointing, but that still doesn't negate two very useful advantages that cavaliers get:
    1. Immunity to poisons is a lifesaver against spiders and wyverns, the former of which is both a frequent and deadly enemy in BG1.
    2. The ability to not only resist fear, but also to instantly cure it among your party members prevents them from simply running around and getting slaughtered anytime an enemy spellcaster casts "horror" - which a substantial number of casters in the game will do.
    Lateralus said:


    You got THAT right, pal. My berserker/thief needs no flawed god. Sil is gonna make me a sammich

    And Centeol's pets are gonna make you lunch. :-P

    Nah I usually burn a potion of freedom and read a scroll of protection against poison before running around there. I let Centeol live because he's evil and I want him to make me a ridable spider. :)

  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,059
    Seriously, there is no point in defending a bug/oversight:

    Cavaliers SHOULD be immune to ALL charm/domination & poisons (including Cloud Kill).


    Question: Do other charm-immune classes (Inquisitor?) also suffer from such a problem?

    RAM021Nimran
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,050
    Pecca said:

    I can't reproduce this. My cavalier won't get charmed by sirines.

    I concur. I tested it now and I couldn't get charmed either by sirines.

    CrevsDaakJuliusBorisov
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    elminster said:

    Pecca said:

    I can't reproduce this. My cavalier won't get charmed by sirines.

    I concur. I tested it now and I couldn't get charmed either by sirines.
    Thirded. Cavalier PC and Isra have both tanked Sirines in my experience.

    JuliusBorisov
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    deltago said:

    Lateralus said:

    bengoshi said:

    I would never call them weak (they are known good choices for no-reload runs).

    They are just not OP, and this is a big difference.

    A siren ended my solo no-reload run. It was a bittersweet death. Forsaken by his god, or rewarded? Discuss this....
    Ah ha.
    I know your issue now.

    You weren't killed by a siren's poison arrow, nor by her dire charming you into hostility. You were killed by her kiss which makes you confused and feebleminded,both of which you do not have natural immunities to.
    Wait, the kiss is different from their ranged charm song?!?

  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903

    Its a 1d2 attack that causes confusion (no saving throw bonus/penalty) and feeblemindedness


    Anybody who has a feeble mind is in fact weak...mic drop....

    Demon poop for life yo!!!

    Actually, this is an awesome clarification, i think that's what happened to me! Thank you for restoring my faith in the faithful cavalier!

    Now, should they be made immune to feeblemind? No. They should have immunities and resistances towards everything dragons, demons, and devils throw at you. If a succubus casts domination as a natural attack than yes, immunity to that effect should be made!

    BTW, being kissed to death sounds like a good way to die. :)

    NimranMoomintroll
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    elminster said:

    Lateralus said:



    The kit is fatally flawed because they cant stand toe to toe with a demon and stand a chance. Go ahead, hit level 8 and tank Albert. Lemme know how that works out for ya.

    Albert has

    -8 AC
    25 strength
    0 Thac0 (-7 with strength bonus)
    102 health
    1d20 (crushing) attack
    2 APR
    and immunity to normal weapons.

    I disagree with you in that you definitely can stand a chance against him.

    The items I am using are

    Oil of Speed, Varscona, Full Plate Mail, Balduran's Helm, Balduran's Cloak, Shield of the Falling Stars (a large shield +1 would be just as effective and I forgot about Pellan's shield since it would be even better here), Ring of protection +2, Destroyer of the Hills, and Boots of Haste (which doesn't really do anything I just like to run really fast). I didn't use any potions of mind focusing which could also bring my AC down further (and exclude the need to use at least one of the harder to find magical items I have listed here). Likewise there are other strength potions and stuff like the potion of power/heroism that I could have used.

    I also could have been using either of the gauntlets for weapon skill/expertise and forgot about them.

    In some of the battles I used Draw Upon Holy Might (innate ability), in others I didn't. I'd say about half of them. I also forgot about casting Protection From Evil.

    Here is a screenshot of my equipment and character. Despite obviously using 5 of the books (I didn't bother with the tome for wisdom but bothered with charisma and intelligence for some reason) and getting a 90 as an initial roll all of my stats are acquirable in the game.

    image

    image

    Results were 7/8 battles I killed him. My best result was 57 health remaining, my worst (besides being dead) was 2 health (two battles had results that were in the 20's and the rest were in the 40 health remaining range).

    Either way he hits like a tank but he is definitely beatable by a cavalier.
    Thats pretty good, but what did you do thats so special to kill it? Not much. A vanilla fighter has about the same damage/ hit chance vs demons because they master weapons. Zerket could have gained another +2/+2.

    The cavalier kit would have been better represented with a 10 round immunity boost than 20% to fire/acid all the time. They don't stand out as big time combatants of the games most deadly enemies.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited September 2014
    They get all normal paladin abilities as well, in exchange for one easily circumvented drawback. Plenty powerful enough in my opinion.

    elminsteratcDavethe_spyder
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    jackjack said:

    Lateralus said:

    BTW, being kissed to death sounds like a good way to die. :)

    Not necessarily…
    image
    Thats no kiss, face huggers aren't hugging. O_o

    jackjackRAM021NimranJuliusBorisov
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    They are big fans of 'surprise' love, and 'jump on your face at first sight' love.

    Nimran
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    A Cavalier would fail to resist the Domination spell cast by the Alien AND THEN...he would take 80% of the acid damaged before being killed by a tiny headed version of the Alien.

    Weak.

    booinyoureyesjackjackRAM021JuliusBorisov
  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 810
    "Why Cavaliers are weak"

    -Because they're not Inquisitors.

    lunarJuliusBorisov
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,409
    I was like 'wait, aren't cavaliers immune to dire charm?' as I always knew it like this, wondered if it was nerfed by a patch along the way. Turns out it wasn't, so cavaliers are good. They can deal with the sirines like nobody else. (provided they don't fall victim to their kiss) They are not game breakingly powerful, but have good uses. Immunity to fear and the ability to counter fear in others alone is a very solid ability, too.

    JuliusBorisovatcDaveArdul
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    lunar said:

    I was like 'wait, aren't cavaliers immune to dire charm?' as I always knew it like this, wondered if it was nerfed by a patch along the way. Turns out it wasn't, so cavaliers are good. They can deal with the sirines like nobody else. (provided they don't fall victim to their kiss) They are not game breakingly powerful, but have good uses. Immunity to fear and the ability to counter fear in others alone is a very solid ability, too.

    Yes provided they keep their distance they are great tanks, oh wait they suck at ranged combat....

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,409
    edited September 2014
    Lateralus said:

    lunar said:

    I was like 'wait, aren't cavaliers immune to dire charm?' as I always knew it like this, wondered if it was nerfed by a patch along the way. Turns out it wasn't, so cavaliers are good. They can deal with the sirines like nobody else. (provided they don't fall victim to their kiss) They are not game breakingly powerful, but have good uses. Immunity to fear and the ability to counter fear in others alone is a very solid ability, too.

    Yes provided they keep their distance they are great tanks, oh wait they suck at ranged combat....
    IIRC They can still use throwing daggers or axes to good effect, since they deliver strength damage as well. ^^

    JuliusBorisovjackjack
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