IWD2EE speculation

Sjerrie

I see a lot of people mentioning IWD2EE. I am genuinely curious as to what they (and others) think could be enhanced with that, other than technical features like HD, zoom, etc.

While the BG series is (now) mostly in 2.5e, IWD2 is mostly in 3.5e. As such, vanilla already has half-orcs, and even tieflings, drow, aasimar and other sub-races. Monks are also already present, and while not all classes have kits, the Cleric has more choices than BG2. Dual- and multiclassing is a non-issue because of 3.5e, and that gives both powergamers and roleplayers virtually unlimited freedom in building their character. You can build your half-orc wizard or dwarven sorcerer, or a quintuple-class character. ...and I can have my ranger/sorcerer.

Icewind Dale 2 was the first Infinity Engine game I ever played, and I still love it to bits. This is not to bash any ruleset, but wouldn't IWD2 in the BGEE engine technically be a downgrade? Would there be issues concerning the rights to the game, because of the difference in ruleset?

Let us share our thoughts.

Silverstar

Sjerrie said:

This is not to bash any ruleset, but wouldn't IWD2 in the BGEE engine technically be a downgrade?

That's my concern actually. ID2 has sub-races which EE doesn't and paladin/cleric/monk kits that EE doesn't and many of these are referenced multiple places throughout the game. So unless an ID2:EE were to include these a lot of fluff and dialogue would go up in smoke. The class kits is probably easy enough for them to do but seeing as the EEs hasn't gotten sub-races yet and there's been vague hinting at it being due to balancing, I'm not sure that will ever happen.

SapphireIce101

Actually, IWD2 is uses 3e not 3.5e.

As for rule sets, yeah, I wouldn't mind if it got downgraded to 2.5e, or upgraded to 3.5, 4e, or 5e as long as they fix the UI. I dislike some parts of the UI so much.

Kamigoroshi

I know this will never happen, but I so badly want to be able to join the Legion of the Chimera in Icewind Dale II:EE! Especially as an Half-Orc, Tiefling, Duergar, or Drow for that matter. Their goal to create a save haven for the so-called "monster" races always was very noble in my eyes. And there's of course the very intruiging Sherincal as well. Dem scales!

Casadoom

What I'd like most is BG/BG2/IWD in IWD2 with the current EE UI.

IWD2 itself is absolutely excellent in every way other than UI and I would pay just for a proper UI. Although I am not sure how the beamdog guys can handle the, I believe, less modifiable version of IWD2

Silverstar

Kamigoroshi said:

Especially as an Half-Orc, Tiefling, Duergar, or Drow for that matter. Their goal to create a save haven for the so-called "monster" races always was very noble in my eyes. And there's of course the very intruiging Sherincal as well. Dem scales!

Seemed open to the inclusion of Aasimar as well. No chance to join for them either though. And yes. Sherincal certainly has nice... scales...

Nimran

@Kamigoroshi‌ after joining the Chimera, the party could be tasked with a variety of missions, like take that town or hold that bridge.

Sjerrie

SapphireIce101 said:

Actually, IWD2 is uses 3e not 3.5e.

As for rule sets, yeah, I wouldn't mind if it got downgraded to 2.5e, or upgraded to 3.5, 4e, or 5e as long as they fix the UI. I dislike some parts of the UI so much.

My bad. It's been a while since I played.

@Silverstar I'd like to see the clerics of IWD2 in BGEE actually. I've always wondered why Oghma or Mystra were never included in the first place.

Silverstar

Sjerrie said:

I'd like to see the clerics of IWD2 in BGEE actually. I've always wondered why Oghma or Mystra were never included in the first place.

Would love the cleric kits as well. I think Lorekeeper of Oghma would fit incredibly well if we consider the progagonist's background but any additional cleric kits would be a welcome addition really.

atcDave

I'd love to see IWD2 backdated to 2.5E! I might actually finish the game that way.

I know, I know; it'll never happen...

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Silverstar

thespace said:

The funny thing is that I agree with you, although back in the day I wanted them all to be updated to 3rd E. I just prefer things more simple as I get older.

I really love being able to dual-class without the bizzarro world rules. I like having a knave in the party (thief/mage) and a Battleguard of Tempus (fighter/cleric). Not a huge fan of "non-vanilla" dual/multi-classes (paladin/sorcerer? really dude?) but I just choose not to use them, so problem solved there.

element

Kamigoroshi said:

I know this will never happen, but I so badly want to be able to join the Legion of the Chimera in Icewind Dale II:EE! Especially as an Half-Orc, Tiefling, Duergar, or Drow for that matter. Their goal to create a save haven for the so-called "monster" races always was very noble in my eyes. And there's of course the very intruiging Sherincal as well. Dem scales!

agree I don't think Ive ever played a game were I have sympathised with the antagonists more

CoM_Solaufein

Besides PST it the only other IE game I never finished. The story sucked, what story there is, more linier than the first one which made it very boring, too many puzzles. I hate puzzles in games for the most part. Just take me from point A to point B already. Plus the rehashed IWD areas looked like s*+**. I can usually get through the first half of the game and that's it. I would get an IWD2EE just to have but probably not finish it unless they made some major changes to it.

GoodSteve

Silverstar said:

thespace said:

The funny thing is that I agree with you, although back in the day I wanted them all to be updated to 3rd E. I just prefer things more simple as I get older.

I really love being able to dual-class without the bizzarro world rules. I like having a knave in the party (thief/mage) and a Battleguard of Tempus (fighter/cleric). Not a huge fan of "non-vanilla" dual/multi-classes (paladin/sorcerer? really dude?) but I just choose not to use them, so problem solved there.

My preference is for more options, whatever they may be. Like you said, if you do not like the option simply do not use it. I'm personally a fan of the Paladin/Wizard or Paladin/Sorcerer of Mystra combo. It makes sense to me that a paladin who follows the tenants of the goddess of magic would take to studying it more closely, even dabbling in it while someone with magic infused in their blood might come to be a paragon of the dogma of a goddess of magic. In 3.5 there were rules for playing a Paladin of Mystra (and a ranger oddly enough) that traded out their paladin spells for wizard spells (albeit only up to level 4.)

The good thing about the 3e and 3.5 rules is that classes are never restricted to 1 APR like in BG (besides fighter type classes that is.) So, in order to make a Battleguard of Tempus (which is a cleric kit in IWD2 that grants weapon proficiency and weapon focus in Axes) you can just make a Cleric and give him a high strength score. Sure, you wont be as good at fighting as a pureclass fighter but you'll hold your own WAY better than a vanilla cleric from BG with their 1 APR. In fact, the 3e cleric is more along the lines of a 2e Fighter/Cleric multi than the vanilla 2e cleric whereas a Cleric/Fighter multi in 3e is more of a hybrid class the would favor fighting more than spellcasting (kind of like a Paladin.)

Zeckul

IWD2:EE would be a significant re-work of the current BG2:EE/IWD:EE engine as it uses different rules. I for one would hope that they stay true to the original and not try to adapt the ruleset to fit in their existing engine.

Adul

Yeah, as I mentioned in another thread, I see two paths here:
1) Bring the EE improvements (better renderer, zoom, quick loot, better UI, etc.) to the IWD2 engine
or
2) Bring the IWD2 improvements (separate weapon sets, subraces, customizable action bar, etc.) and ruleset to the EE engine

I'm rooting for the second approach, because then those IWD2 features could also be backported to the other EE games, and I'd certainly love to see those weapon sets in BG, not to mention the possibility for subraces and/or subrace mods.

Of course, there's the third option where they would just try to port the whole game into a different ruleset, but that would be really bad and I'm certain that they know better.

GoodSteve

I think the safe money is on a small overhaul of IWD2, so zoom, better renderer and UI etc. I believe the rule set will remain the same as it was, but they may include new classes/kits to the game (perhaps bringing some from BGEE and rebalancing them for 3e.) Since the engine works fairly well on its own as is, unless there are a lot of additions to the game (classes, races, items, new quests etc.) I would expect IWD2:EE to be a little cheaper than the other EE games have been thus far.

jackjack

I'm in the minority here, but I'm not actually interested in IWD2EE. I love IWD and have already preordered, but I can't get into the sequel at all.

Adul

jackjack said:

I'm in the minority here, but I'm not actually interested in IWD2EE. I love IWD and have already preordered, but I can't get into the sequel at all.

I think it's a really good story if you accept the fact that it's not about your characters. The antagonists, and a gnomish family, of all things, are what stand in the focus of the story, and that's something that I always liked about IWD2. It's a different kind of storytelling than what you usually see in RPGs. I don't know why, but the way IWD2's story is structured has always reminded me of those old sprawling war novels of literary romanticism.

DeathOfNames

I always hated the fact that IWD2 doesn't have any kind of 3D acceleration and thus no alpha transparency... only dithering (mainly visible in fog of war and with certain spells). In general it just doesn't look as good as its older brethren.

The 3e rules can stay. I have no problem with them, though it's somewhat mere complex than 2.5e, and it kept me from getting into the game for a while.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

mlnevese

IWD2 had some serious bugs that were never solved such as feats that did nothing. The bug fixing alone would be worth it.

Schneidend

IWD2 won't go to the BGEE ruleset. It literally can't. BGEE has no 3E skill system, which is integrated into the conversations in the game. BGEE can't replicate a character having 4 points in Intimdate or 3 points in Knowledge: Nature.

GoodSteve

mlnevese said:

IWD2 had some eerious bugs that were never solved, such as feats that did nothing. The bug fixing alone would be worthy it.

Here's looking at you Improved Initiative!

Sjerrie

Schneidend said:

IWD2 won't go to the BGEE ruleset. It literally can't. BGEE has no 3E skill system, which is integrated into the conversations in the game. BGEE can't replicate a character having 4 points in Intimdate or 3 points in Knowledge: Nature.

Agreed. But while IWD2 is skill-bound, it might be possible for an EE to substitute an ability check STR (or CHA) for intimidate, and make nature checks dependent on class (druid/ranger) and/or INT or WIS for instance. This would require a total restructuring of those checks in the dialogues however, which may be a lot of work, and it would definitely change the balance of the game.

Pekingduckman

I'm more interest in item and quest restorations. For instance, a bunch of items were supposed to be included in the first chapter in Targos but were removed for some reason, and there was also the bonus merchant in Kuldahar and the genie bottle sold by Nem. And I'm not sure anyone can verify this, but according to the Infinity Explorer, the Fomorian giant Goublika in Chapter 2 originally had a non-violent solution, but his dialog was dummied out.

Schneidend

Sjerrie said:

Schneidend said:

IWD2 won't go to the BGEE ruleset. It literally can't. BGEE has no 3E skill system, which is integrated into the conversations in the game. BGEE can't replicate a character having 4 points in Intimdate or 3 points in Knowledge: Nature.

Agreed. But while IWD2 is skill-bound, it might be possible for an EE to substitute an ability check STR (or CHA) for intimidate, and make nature checks dependent on class (druid/ranger) and/or INT or WIS for instance. This would require a total restructuring of those checks in the dialogues however, which may be a lot of work, and it would definitely change the balance of the game.

It might be possible, sure, but it would be less than ideal, and take away from IWD2's fairly deep character progression for an Infinite Engine game. Also, it's just not as fun. My tiefling Barbarian with 8 Charisma convinced a whole town of high-level Druids and Rangers that the party could and would wipe them out if they did not get the Hells out of the way. He managed that feat because, while he's an apathetic, barely sociable, lazy lout, he knows how to draw on some of that Balor blood in his veins and the rage in his heart to be scary and deliver an ultimatum. If it was a Charisma check, that's out the window. If it's a Strength check, well, any dumbass with big biceps can do it.

IWD2EE would be an unusual opportunity for Overhaul, to work not with the kits that they've been doing a wonderful job with, but to develop the bits and pieces that make up a 3E character's "kit." They can fix the feats that didn't work right, like Quick Draw, and hopefully add their own and make the weaker feats in the game more attractive.

Even more ambitiously, maybe they could even add PRESTIGE CLASSES. I'd love to make my tiefling Barbarian a Frenzied Berserker like he was in my 3E tabletop games. But, more importantly, that's how they get their previous work on EE to shine on in a 3E ruleset. Shadow Dancer, Blackguard, Dwarven Defender, and Dragon Disciple are all prestige classes in 3E, so IWD2EE doesn't necessarily have to be a complete departure from their previous efforts. In fact, I would much prefer Overhaul's vision of the Blackguard's abilities to go into designing a prestige class version than WotC's original "smite good" nonsense.

Don't get me wrong. I really hope that Overhaul's work to clean up the base code of the Infinity Engine can be carried over to IWD2, because that has been invaluable in making the game run more smoothly, load faster, etc. However, that's bare bones engine stuff, not actual in-game mechanics, and I think it would be a disservice to the game and to fans of 3E to revert IWD2 back to 2.5/BGEE. 3E fans like myself have to deal with enough upturned noses around here from the 2E crowd, and having them and Overhaul say that they know best by edition-hopping IWD2 would be twisting the knife pretty hardcore.

simples

in p&p, how are prestige classes presented? is it a class you work towards or is it something that's suggested to you: "oh you have x points in spellcraft, x points in whatever else etc, why don't you become an arcane trickster"

Schneidend

simples said:

in p&p, how are prestige classes presented? is it a class you work towards or is it something that's suggested to you: "oh you have x points in spellcraft, x points in whatever else etc, why don't you become an arcane trickster"

It depends. A lot of prestige classes represent a particular dedication to a profession, skillset, or life path (like Assassin, Dragon Disciple, Mystic Theurge, or Blackguard), that don't require actual progression in a social or organizational hierarchy, but achieving the right amount of skill and knowledge. An Assassin is typically a Rogue who excels at the art of killing or incapacitating on the first strike, and only needs to hone those skills and possibly hire out for a few killings to truly be an assassin in ability and not just name. After all, any class could feasibly assassinate somebody, but a Paladin who kills a popular proselytizer of an Evil faith during his latest sermon is different from an Assassin who has built a reputation as a reliable and efficient murderer for hire. The Assassin prestige class elevates you to a different level of mastery than a Rogue who uses Sneak Attack. Arcane Trickster would be much the same way. There's not really an organization that tells you how to be an Arcane Trickster. It represents your ability to take both of your talents, that of subterfuge and magic, and having the blend truly crystallize. An Arcane Trickster is known, if not famous or infamous in the region, for seamlessly blending his skills into something more than just the sum of its parts, hence the "prestige."

On the other hand, a prestige class like the Hellknight in Pathfinder, while having a few skills requirements, literally requires you to kill a devil of your level or higher in view of another Hellknight before you can take levels in it. It's a sprawling organization, that operates out of strongholds in various regions throughout the Pathfinder campaign setting, and has a pretty strict hierarchy. A lot of their abilities revolve around emulating the fighting styles and magic of devils and turning that power into a force of (generally) Lawful Neutral uber-justice, so naturally be able to beat a devil senseless is a good rite of passage. My frustration with one of my friends at railroading my character away from speaking to the Hellknights has actually become infamous in my gaming group. I'm a bit on the Lawful Neutral side, myself, so I can't even really bring myself to "bend" the rules and take a level in it despite his interference.

Avenger_teambg

Sjerrie said:

Schneidend said:

IWD2 won't go to the BGEE ruleset. It literally can't. BGEE has no 3E skill system, which is integrated into the conversations in the game. BGEE can't replicate a character having 4 points in Intimdate or 3 points in Knowledge: Nature.

Agreed. But while IWD2 is skill-bound, it might be possible for an EE to substitute an ability check STR (or CHA) for intimidate, and make nature checks dependent on class (druid/ranger) and/or INT or WIS for instance. This would require a total restructuring of those checks in the dialogues however, which may be a lot of work, and it would definitely change the balance of the game.

It's not the skill system that's the toughest, but the numerous small changes in the combat system. (thac0 vs bab, etc). The skill system is actually compatible with 2e (house ruled nonweapon proficiencies are just like skills). Even the reduced number of saving throws wouldn't be a huge problem, or the ability based bonus system. (Speaking from GemRB experience).