I will say that our processes have needed some work. That being said, the foundation for that work was laid with BG:EE 1.3, and it's continuing through IWD:EE and BGII:EE 1.3.
I don't think any of us are insisting that BG2:EE has to be totally bug free either, it's just that they haven't fixed ANYTHING for it since November, when there's clearly a lot that needs doing, as others have said.
BG:EE was even worse when it came out, but then there were actually very frequent patches (I think at one stage three in a week), so we could at least see Beamdog were putting in a real effort to fix things up, which helped ease frustrations somewhat (for me anyway). The wait for the 1.2 patch was mostly justified by it having a whole new renderer and the legal problems that they had.
When BG2:EE came out we got one very minor patch, and then were told they would only put their efforts into BG2 after BG:EE android/1.3 was done, which was already mostly fine, but has taken ages, which hasn't been helped by spending weeks on bugs associated with adding the font slider.
Now that BG:EE 1.3 has FINALLY been released and a lot of us were looking forward to BG2 being given a decent patch at last (or even some movement in this direction), they announce they're working on a completely different game instead!
Would it really have been that difficult to maintain focus on BG2 for a month or two after release, get rid of some of the more annoying bugs, and THEN work on BG1/IWD? I don't buy the argument that it's completely different people working on them either. Granted artists/writers will have little to do with bug fixing, but I doubt the people adding IWD features to the EE engine, or those patching BG1 for that matter, were incapable of helping to patch BG2 instead.
For those who are saying that they would rather have a patch for existing content over IWD:EE, remember that the patch doesn't bring in revenue. It doesn't pay bills. it doesn't feed programmers. At some point they HAD to move on to another project or simply disband due to diminishing incoming funds from the existing properties. If they disbanded, we would definitely not see any further patches for BG series, nor BG3 (always assuming that isn't a pipe dream).
My personal opinion is that this is a good thing no matter how you slice it. (a) we get yet more content in the form of IWD, which I quite like. (b) if it is profitable the company stays in business and, if they intend to curry further favor, will have the funds to continue to work on patching/improving their existing products and (c) The more they work on various iterations of the engine, the more they learn and can leverage and unify. This means that something that was fixed in one engine can be examined and evaluated for the others (kits etc...).
Finally, if this second "experiment" works out and is profitable, that opens the door for yet further projects like this. PS:T? BG3? Something entirely new?
'At some point' they had to move onto new projects, yes, but not immediately after release! It's not THAT unreasonable to ask for a couple of bug fixes after more than nine months of waiting without being accused of suggesting Beamdog should bankrupt themselves releasing patches for all eternity!
I'm looking forward to Icewind Dale too actually, but the fact that BG2 still hasn't received any attention doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
One thing I think might've been a wise choice (And I don't know how effective this would be in reality, but in my head it makes sense) would be to make many smaller patches. At the very least people would know that the games are consistently being worked on and we'd be getting more stuff fixed. I dunno. That's just me. *Shrugs*
I don't wait around, preferring to fix the bugs I can fix on my own. To date, I have not encountered any bug which has been game-breaking that I could not resolve.
I will say that our processes have needed some work. That being said, the foundation for that work was laid with BG:EE 1.3, and it's continuing through IWD:EE and BGII:EE 1.3.
That you actually think saying this is enough to convince anybody only goes to show how out-of-touch the devs are. We've been getting variations of that phrase for over a year now: "We're working to improve our communications with our customers", "we're working on our processes", "we're working on reinventing beta testing".
And the end result of all that work? In about two weeks, BG2:EE will enter Month 10 with zero support and a list of bugs longer than the original game's. Empty promises of "doing better next time" aren't going to persuade anyone who thinks the same will happen with Beamdog's next game.
For those who are saying that they would rather have a patch for existing content over IWD:EE, remember that the patch doesn't bring in revenue. It doesn't pay bills. it doesn't feed programmers.
A remarkably short-sighted approach, since by leaving their existing product a buggy, broken mess for almost a year, they're going to have a much more difficult time convincing people to try their next product. Damn-near every review I've seen of BG2:EE has explicitly lowered its grade because of the large number of bugs, and if you want to know how that can affect a company, Stardock had to give away the game they made after "Elemental: War of Magic" because of its state at launch. And not a damn tear was shed for them either.
I was going to wait a little bit but after reading these particular complaints I am going to go pre-order IWDEE *right now* just so I can put some money in Beamdog's bank account.
update: done. I also pre-ordered via the Beamdog client so I don't have to mess with Steam.
and if you want to know how that can affect a company, Stardock had to give away the game they made after "Elemental: War of Magic" because of its state at launch. And not a damn tear was shed for them either.
And i still play Fallen Enchantress, and bought all DLCs for it Didn't it evolve from Elemental: War of Magic ? To be honest, FE is the only game I like from StarDock, but it is my most played game of all.
'At some point' they had to move onto new projects, yes, but not immediately after release! It's not THAT unreasonable to ask for a couple of bug fixes after more than nine months of waiting without being accused of suggesting Beamdog should bankrupt themselves releasing patches for all eternity!
I'm looking forward to Icewind Dale too actually, but the fact that BG2 still hasn't received any attention doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
I guess I am not understanding this post. (a) BG2 was released a while ago. How so is this news "immediately after release"? And (b) no one is saying that they aren't still working on BG fixes, merely that they are doing something that actually brings in revenue and keeps the lights on IN ADDITION.
A remarkably short-sighted approach, since by leaving their existing product a buggy, broken mess for almost a year, they're going to have a much more difficult time convincing people to try their next product. Damn-near every review I've seen of BG2:EE has explicitly lowered its grade because of the large number of bugs, and if you want to know how that can affect a company, Stardock had to give away the game they made after "Elemental: War of Magic" because of its state at launch. And not a damn tear was shed for them either.
In what way is it short sighted to look to the future? The product launched a while ago and has definitely made money. It is generally considered stable by the vast majority of players. It is only us core die hard fans that have drilled into it to such a degree that we see the flaws under the veneer.
And every single review I have seen has been at least in the good to excellent range even with the bugs. Finally, the black and white philosophy that predicates your position postulates that they aren't continuing to work on the problems. Given release of IWD is TBD, they still have plenty of time to patch any ill will that currently exists. Again, if they shut down due to no funds, that wouldn't happen.
I will say that our processes have needed some work. That being said, the foundation for that work was laid with BG:EE 1.3, and it's continuing through IWD:EE and BGII:EE 1.3.
That you actually think saying this is enough to convince anybody only goes to show how out-of-touch the devs are. We've been getting variations of that phrase for over a year now: "We're working to improve our communications with our customers", "we're working on our processes", "we're working on reinventing beta testing".
And the end result of all that work? In about two weeks, BG2:EE will enter Month 10 with zero support and a list of bugs longer than the original game's. Empty promises of "doing better next time" aren't going to persuade anyone who thinks the same will happen with Beamdog's next game.
I don't expect everyone to suddenly say "Hey great, Beamdog, good on ya". I'm acknowledging that there has been a problem, and saying that there are measures in place to remedy that problem. I don't expect anyone to change their opinion until they see results.
If you see that acknowledgement of the problem as a sign that we're out of touch, then I honestly don't know what you want to hear. That we've discovered time travel and can go back ten months to fix the problem back then?
At a certain point you have to stop being antagonistic for the sake of being "in the right". I would rather hear a "Yeah, well, we'll see about that" than "literally because you said that, things must be worse than anybody ever thought".
You're still here on these forums, @shawne, blasting us on a daily basis for (mostly) the right reasons--and that's good, it keeps everyone striving to do better, and in the long run it will make the games better as well. Please don't make the mistake of blasting us for the wrong ones too; it undercuts your credibility and really does nothing to help anyone.
You've been acknowledging the same problem since last April, so of the two of us, I don't quite see why I'm the one who should be worrying about credibility. Still, the discussion's run its course as is: one either agrees with @Skaffen and votes with their wallets, or one supports Beamdog and hopes for the best. That's about all that needs to be said.
@the_spyder, when I said 'immediately after release', I thought it was fairly obvious I was referring to the lack of a patch since November 20th (which wasn't exactly very substantial). Since the game was released on the 15th, I suppose you could argue maintaining support for five days means I can't really use the word 'immediately', but I think you're splitting hairs somewhat.
It doesn't really matter how many bugs they've actually fixed if they never release them! That's actually what I find the most frustrating, knowing that a lot of the more annoying bugs were probably fixed months ago, but are being held back because the current build has problems because of android and whatever features they've added for other games!
Even @dee acknowledges that there have been problems (which I appreciate btw). I'd LIKE to think that if they knew android/BG 1.3/iwd would all take this long they'd probably have focused more on BG2:EE bug fixing for a month or two before they started messing around with the engine so much, and that the current BG2 build just has too many newly introduced problems to release.
I'm still very glad Beamdog has released the enhanced editions, and I've even pre-ordered Icewind Dale myself (probably because I'm weak), but that doesn't mean I'm not gonna complain when I think they've screwed up.
In addition to working with Beamdog, I also spend some time as the lead on a small, niche project you've probably never heard of known as the BG2 Fixpack. I'm grateful that we continue to get constructive criticism and that the passion for the games, Enhanced or not, continues to run strong.
@rorikon - I never said there weren't issues. Clearly there are.
But you need to understand that a bug fix release does not generate revenue like a new product does. Therefore, calling the bug release a "Launch" in the context of revenue and profitability is in no way even remotely accurate. It is work completed, but it is not a revenue builder.
In order for a company to exist and thrive it needs to either (a) have a new product in the works or (b) just releasing a new product. If it isn't doing one or the other, it will fail. Revenue drops the longer a product is out. And if there isn't something tangible that is a revenue generator (a new product) investors will leave. No money means no company. No company means no more patches.
Consumers want patches. Investors couldn't care less about them because they don't bring in more money. And they only marginally influence the profitability of the next game, but there has to BE a next game for even that much of a lift.
I am in no way defending past failings of the company. But in order to keep in business, they NEED to look out for the future and that ONLY means new products. Full stop.
A lot of consumers think that companies work based on individual consumer satisfaction, which is in no way the truth. Companies work on units sold out the door. Period. A company that gets good enough ratings to sell enough units to be profitable is all that investors care about. Patches are PR and nothing more. I give HUGE credit to any company that even bothers because a fair few don't.
And sure @Dee and the other Devs on this site seem to show a genuine interest in getting things right. I personally applaud their efforts because ultimately it shows commitment that they even spend time here on the boards given the slashing they routinely get. And yes, their efforts, in addition to any patches that get done, will facilitate marketing of the next product, but only a little bit and ONLY if there IS a next product. Otherwise it is merely good people trying to do the right thing.
In addition to working with Beamdog, I also spend some time as the lead on a small, niche project you've probably never heard of known as the BG2 Fixpack. I'm grateful that we continue to get constructive criticism and that the passion for the games, Enhanced or not, continues to run strong.
@shawne: Point - it's basically "I may not know art, but I know what I like".
@skaffen: You have experience with program development, then. Please think back to your experiences with program development as you read over your posts.
Both of youm as well as anyone else: I'm not knowingly making a judgement call on your arguments - they are quite valid - but I think you're taking your expectations for granted. Yes, the devs made promises that they have yet to deliver on. Yes, they've made some (really big) PR blunders. I still say that they need a dedicated PR specialist. But you want to know something?
They've heard all these accusations and concerns before. All of them.
When BGIIEE was announced, this was less pronounced because - let's be honest - most of us, if not all, were only on board because of BGII to begin with. When the Atari Bankruptcy happened, people were in a furor because - surprise, surprise - we stopped hearing from the devs halfway through a patch cycle. These accusations and concerns cropped up then, too. When BGIIEE finally was released, there were some concerns that BGEE would be neglected and left in a partially completed state in favor of BGIIEE. Now we're getting the same accusations and concerns again - stronger this time - due to the BGEE patch that was just released and IWDEE which was just announced.
Me personally, I don't think Beamdog/Overhaul is going to do what Ntreev did to Trickster Online. Still, it is a possibility and if you do feel concerned about it, by all means vote with your wallets. The PC versions play well enough in Single Player, and I'm sure they'll fix Multiplayer by the time I get around to trying that. Most people buying the EEs will only care about that first part anyway.
For those who are saying that they would rather have a patch for existing content over IWD:EE, remember that the patch doesn't bring in revenue. It doesn't pay bills. it doesn't feed programmers. At some point they HAD to move on to another project or simply disband due to diminishing incoming funds from the existing properties.
No doubt and I fully agree. The point of contention is when that "some point" is! Except for the PC memory leak fix the game has to the outside world essentially turned into abandonware 5 days after the release.
That is too early by any standard.
And if they have been diligently working on fixing these bugs internally: even worse! Release the damned fixes! A fix not released is no fix at all.
Personally I don't care about a shiny new engine or font sizes or other eye candy. If I want that, I buy a modern game on a modern engine. I want broken quests and romances fixed, watchers keep to appear reliably, vorpal werewolves to be banished and then the promised criss platform multiplayer so that I can play with my son.
Is is moot/philisophical to discuss what is the better business model but I am convinced that they could have sold more copies of the existing games on the existing platforms if they had not scared customers off by the disastrous ratings and comments in Apple Store & Co - 90% due to the bugs from what I saw.
On that solid base moving to the next game/platform would have been much easier and in the long run sustainable and many more games in total sold. Had they fixed BGII and delivered as promised they would at least have sold another copy of BG1 and BG2 to me for multiplayer with my son and have 3 pre-orders for IWD.
In any case, @Dee has promised improvements (again) and if they come I'll start buying again. I'll squeeze in Wasteland II now and then check back on the status here.
Except for the PC memory leak fix the game has to the outside world essentially turned into abandonware 5 days after the release.
Nitpicking here - abandonware has to do with if the owner is actively using their copyright, not if the owner is maintaining the software. Shattered Lands is currently abandonware, Dark Ages is not (Apogee released it as freeware in 2009). Dune II is currently abandonware, the original Command And Conquer is not (EA is currently distributing this, though I don't know if it's as freeware or purchaseware).
I'm pretty sure someone would object if you downloaded one of the EEs without paying for it.
@Pokota: Customers aren't obligated to cut developers slack for releasing defective products. If you want to do so, more power to you, though conventional wisdom suggests you're just going to get screwed again (see: Gearbox Software getting a second chance after "Duke Nukem Forever", and releasing... "Aliens: Colonial Marines").
For Beamdog to earn the kind of leeway you're talking about, they have to do something other than "acknowledge the problem", because that's literally a repetition of what they were saying when BG2:EE was up for pre-order: everyone was giving the mea culpa that the first game's launch was a mess, but they'd learned from their mistakes, and Trent Oster was at PAX 2013 talking about how they were working really hard to make sure BG2:EE would do better. Almost a year later, here we are, getting the exact same song and dance about IWD:EE. How can you possibly blame people who've been burned twice for being skeptical or critical? How can you refute the argument that Beamdog can't handle its current workload, and that adding a third game will only make it more difficult to get their existing products to acceptable condition?
I don't wait around, preferring to fix the bugs I can fix on my own. To date, I have not encountered any bug which has been game-breaking that I could not resolve.
I encountered lots of bugs in BG2EE, but I didn't encounter anything game-breaking either. The people in the bugs forum were very helpful in helping me solve most of them. The whole process however, of seeing something stupid going on on my screen, having to come out of the game to try and get it sorted, then having to do that same section of game again, was totally immersion-breaking and ruined my BG2EE experience.
For Beamdog to earn the kind of leeway you're talking about, they have to do something other than "acknowledge the problem", because that's literally a repetition of what they were saying when BG2:EE was up for pre-order: everyone was giving the mea culpa that the first game's launch was a mess, but they'd learned from their mistakes, and Trent Oster was at PAX 2013 talking about how they were working really hard to make sure BG2:EE would do better. Almost a year later, here we are, getting the exact same song and dance about IWD:EE.
How can you possibly blame people who've been burned twice for being skeptical or critical?
I was burned only once, because I didn't buy BGII:EE, and it looks like it was the right thing to do, considering the current state of the game, but other than that I fully agree with @shawne.
How can you refute the argument that Beamdog can't handle its current workload, and that adding a third game will only make it more difficult to get their existing products to acceptable condition?
It also looks like no-one at Beamdog ever played Risk (the board game) otherwise they would know how big a mistake is to spread yourself too thin
Why hasn't there been a patch for bg2:ee? When beamdog was frantically patching bg:ee their patches would introduce more bugs after the fix went through. This frustrated certain consumers who either didn't understand how the engine worked, or people who simply didn't care and wanted to bitch and moan about it.
When beamdog came to the community and asked what we wanted a majority of people stated that they would rather have one patch that fixes everything than multiple patches that could cause other issues in the future. They also asked for the patches to be completely beta tested so all issues can be found and fixed before release.
Timing on this patch can be considered an issue but then want to make sure they get it right the first time. Bg:ee 1.3 just came out and besides pickpocketing drizzt there hasn't been any issues addressed with it from my knowledge.
This is due to the processes the company is working from. The only thing I think they need to fix is their timing on the releases. The atari fiasco didn't help but I am confident the patch wil be released in the near future.
When beamdog came to the community and asked what we wanted a majority of people stated that they would rather have one patch that fixes everything than multiple patches that could cause other issues in the future.
What? I don't remember any demand for "one patch to rule them all". I remember better, bigger and more stable patches being asked for, but I don't remember anyone saying "oh I only ever want one more patch".
There's a big different between wanting less but better patches and wanting only one perfect.
but then want to make sure they get it right the first time.
An admirable goal, but the ends don't justify the means in this case. Besides, Overhaul seems to be made up of fairly intelligent people so they probably aren't arrogant and delusional enough to think they'll fix every problem in one go, or that the patch itself can't have problems of its own.
@shawne: Considering all three games are running the same engine, it's largely trivial to fix engine bugs across all three if it's been fixed in one. This is actually why game companies generally make one engine and stick with it (see New World Computing's switch from the Enroth engine to the Lithtech engine at the end of everything and how well that was received. Seriously, that was a no-win situation for them at that point). I can't speak for the ipad version, though, as I don't have an ipad.
Again, if you are of the opinion that you have been screwed, you have every right to not transact in the future until you're sure that you won't be screwed. Also, we forum-goers are a much smaller minority of the total userbase - unless there are a plurality of anonymous users that are disgruntled about the ipad edition or (cross-platform?) multiplayer not working as promised, they won't lose out on enough sales for it to make a big difference in the short run (but see below). Your words? They will make a larger impact than you think because people who are interested in the EEs and haven't bought any yet will look into the discussions and see this disgruntledness.
Caveat - there probably are a lot more people out there who only bought BGIIEE and never joined the forums than we think, so it's entirely likely that Overhaul is trying to make what little money they can at this point. Can we get sales figures for BGEE and BGIIEE, and preorder figures for IWDEE? It would probably help put us in perspective.
I pre-ordered BGEE and played it and had a blast. And played it again, and again etc etc etc And I've enjoyed it alot!
And I pre-ordered BG2EE and I've played it and had a blast. No game breaking bugs. Sure, some annoying problems, but on the whole a great time playing it! Again, and again and again!
And today I've pre-ordered IWDEE and I'm looking forward to having a blast playing that too!
So whilst I wouldn't dream of wanting to tell other people that their poor/negative experiences of the game(s) are somehow invalid or non-existent, please don't think your experiences are representative of everyone's. Because they are not.
If someone would be so kind to explain to me what are these "game breaking bugs" that the OP is talking about? I've played both games and besides some minor issues I haven't encountered anything that could be described in such manner. Before someone accuses me...I am not taking any sides...I am just curious.
Unless the OP is specifically referring to multiplayer and multiplayer alone...which again cannot be described as "game breaking" either. So what is this all about?
Comments
BG:EE was even worse when it came out, but then there were actually very frequent patches (I think at one stage three in a week), so we could at least see Beamdog were putting in a real effort to fix things up, which helped ease frustrations somewhat (for me anyway). The wait for the 1.2 patch was mostly justified by it having a whole new renderer and the legal problems that they had.
When BG2:EE came out we got one very minor patch, and then were told they would only put their efforts into BG2 after BG:EE android/1.3 was done, which was already mostly fine, but has taken ages, which hasn't been helped by spending weeks on bugs associated with adding the font slider.
Now that BG:EE 1.3 has FINALLY been released and a lot of us were looking forward to BG2 being given a decent patch at last (or even some movement in this direction), they announce they're working on a completely different game instead!
Would it really have been that difficult to maintain focus on BG2 for a month or two after release, get rid of some of the more annoying bugs, and THEN work on BG1/IWD? I don't buy the argument that it's completely different people working on them either. Granted artists/writers will have little to do with bug fixing, but I doubt the people adding IWD features to the EE engine, or those patching BG1 for that matter, were incapable of helping to patch BG2 instead.
My personal opinion is that this is a good thing no matter how you slice it. (a) we get yet more content in the form of IWD, which I quite like. (b) if it is profitable the company stays in business and, if they intend to curry further favor, will have the funds to continue to work on patching/improving their existing products and (c) The more they work on various iterations of the engine, the more they learn and can leverage and unify. This means that something that was fixed in one engine can be examined and evaluated for the others (kits etc...).
Finally, if this second "experiment" works out and is profitable, that opens the door for yet further projects like this. PS:T? BG3? Something entirely new?
I'm looking forward to Icewind Dale too actually, but the fact that BG2 still hasn't received any attention doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
And the end result of all that work? In about two weeks, BG2:EE will enter Month 10 with zero support and a list of bugs longer than the original game's. Empty promises of "doing better next time" aren't going to persuade anyone who thinks the same will happen with Beamdog's next game.
update: done. I also pre-ordered via the Beamdog client so I don't have to mess with Steam.
And every single review I have seen has been at least in the good to excellent range even with the bugs. Finally, the black and white philosophy that predicates your position postulates that they aren't continuing to work on the problems. Given release of IWD is TBD, they still have plenty of time to patch any ill will that currently exists. Again, if they shut down due to no funds, that wouldn't happen.
If you see that acknowledgement of the problem as a sign that we're out of touch, then I honestly don't know what you want to hear. That we've discovered time travel and can go back ten months to fix the problem back then?
At a certain point you have to stop being antagonistic for the sake of being "in the right". I would rather hear a "Yeah, well, we'll see about that" than "literally because you said that, things must be worse than anybody ever thought".
You're still here on these forums, @shawne, blasting us on a daily basis for (mostly) the right reasons--and that's good, it keeps everyone striving to do better, and in the long run it will make the games better as well. Please don't make the mistake of blasting us for the wrong ones too; it undercuts your credibility and really does nothing to help anyone.
It doesn't really matter how many bugs they've actually fixed if they never release them! That's actually what I find the most frustrating, knowing that a lot of the more annoying bugs were probably fixed months ago, but are being held back because the current build has problems because of android and whatever features they've added for other games!
Even @dee acknowledges that there have been problems (which I appreciate btw). I'd LIKE to think that if they knew android/BG 1.3/iwd would all take this long they'd probably have focused more on BG2:EE bug fixing for a month or two before they started messing around with the engine so much, and that the current BG2 build just has too many newly introduced problems to release.
I'm still very glad Beamdog has released the enhanced editions, and I've even pre-ordered Icewind Dale myself (probably because I'm weak), but that doesn't mean I'm not gonna complain when I think they've screwed up.
However, I did want to pop in and note that this is not remotely true.
Carry on.
But you need to understand that a bug fix release does not generate revenue like a new product does. Therefore, calling the bug release a "Launch" in the context of revenue and profitability is in no way even remotely accurate. It is work completed, but it is not a revenue builder.
In order for a company to exist and thrive it needs to either (a) have a new product in the works or (b) just releasing a new product. If it isn't doing one or the other, it will fail. Revenue drops the longer a product is out. And if there isn't something tangible that is a revenue generator (a new product) investors will leave. No money means no company. No company means no more patches.
Consumers want patches. Investors couldn't care less about them because they don't bring in more money. And they only marginally influence the profitability of the next game, but there has to BE a next game for even that much of a lift.
I am in no way defending past failings of the company. But in order to keep in business, they NEED to look out for the future and that ONLY means new products. Full stop.
A lot of consumers think that companies work based on individual consumer satisfaction, which is in no way the truth. Companies work on units sold out the door. Period. A company that gets good enough ratings to sell enough units to be profitable is all that investors care about. Patches are PR and nothing more. I give HUGE credit to any company that even bothers because a fair few don't.
And sure @Dee and the other Devs on this site seem to show a genuine interest in getting things right. I personally applaud their efforts because ultimately it shows commitment that they even spend time here on the boards given the slashing they routinely get. And yes, their efforts, in addition to any patches that get done, will facilitate marketing of the next product, but only a little bit and ONLY if there IS a next product. Otherwise it is merely good people trying to do the right thing.
That seems like ages ago. But no doubt, EE was in better shape on release day than the original was!
@skaffen: You have experience with program development, then. Please think back to your experiences with program development as you read over your posts.
Both of youm as well as anyone else: I'm not knowingly making a judgement call on your arguments - they are quite valid - but I think you're taking your expectations for granted. Yes, the devs made promises that they have yet to deliver on. Yes, they've made some (really big) PR blunders. I still say that they need a dedicated PR specialist. But you want to know something?
They've heard all these accusations and concerns before. All of them.
When BGIIEE was announced, this was less pronounced because - let's be honest - most of us, if not all, were only on board because of BGII to begin with. When the Atari Bankruptcy happened, people were in a furor because - surprise, surprise - we stopped hearing from the devs halfway through a patch cycle. These accusations and concerns cropped up then, too. When BGIIEE finally was released, there were some concerns that BGEE would be neglected and left in a partially completed state in favor of BGIIEE. Now we're getting the same accusations and concerns again - stronger this time - due to the BGEE patch that was just released and IWDEE which was just announced.
Me personally, I don't think Beamdog/Overhaul is going to do what Ntreev did to Trickster Online. Still, it is a possibility and if you do feel concerned about it, by all means vote with your wallets. The PC versions play well enough in Single Player, and I'm sure they'll fix Multiplayer by the time I get around to trying that. Most people buying the EEs will only care about that first part anyway.
That is too early by any standard.
And if they have been diligently working on fixing these bugs internally: even worse! Release the damned fixes! A fix not released is no fix at all.
Personally I don't care about a shiny new engine or font sizes or other eye candy. If I want that, I buy a modern game on a modern engine. I want broken quests and romances fixed, watchers keep to appear reliably, vorpal werewolves to be banished and then the promised criss platform multiplayer so that I can play with my son.
Is is moot/philisophical to discuss what is the better business model but I am convinced that they could have sold more copies of the existing games on the existing platforms if they had not scared customers off by the disastrous ratings and comments in Apple Store & Co - 90% due to the bugs from what I saw.
On that solid base moving to the next game/platform would have been much easier and in the long run sustainable and many more games in total sold. Had they fixed BGII and delivered as promised they would at least have sold another copy of BG1 and BG2 to me for multiplayer with my son and have 3 pre-orders for IWD.
In any case, @Dee has promised improvements (again) and if they come I'll start buying again. I'll squeeze in Wasteland II now and then check back on the status here.
I'm pretty sure someone would object if you downloaded one of the EEs without paying for it.
Other than that, carry on.
For Beamdog to earn the kind of leeway you're talking about, they have to do something other than "acknowledge the problem", because that's literally a repetition of what they were saying when BG2:EE was up for pre-order: everyone was giving the mea culpa that the first game's launch was a mess, but they'd learned from their mistakes, and Trent Oster was at PAX 2013 talking about how they were working really hard to make sure BG2:EE would do better. Almost a year later, here we are, getting the exact same song and dance about IWD:EE. How can you possibly blame people who've been burned twice for being skeptical or critical? How can you refute the argument that Beamdog can't handle its current workload, and that adding a third game will only make it more difficult to get their existing products to acceptable condition?
When beamdog was frantically patching bg:ee their patches would introduce more bugs after the fix went through. This frustrated certain consumers who either didn't understand how the engine worked, or people who simply didn't care and wanted to bitch and moan about it.
When beamdog came to the community and asked what we wanted a majority of people stated that they would rather have one patch that fixes everything than multiple patches that could cause other issues in the future. They also asked for the patches to be completely beta tested so all issues can be found and fixed before release.
Timing on this patch can be considered an issue but then want to make sure they get it right the first time. Bg:ee 1.3 just came out and besides pickpocketing drizzt there hasn't been any issues addressed with it from my knowledge.
This is due to the processes the company is working from. The only thing I think they need to fix is their timing on the releases. The atari fiasco didn't help but I am confident the patch wil be released in the near future.
There's a big different between wanting less but better patches and wanting only one perfect. An admirable goal, but the ends don't justify the means in this case. Besides, Overhaul seems to be made up of fairly intelligent people so they probably aren't arrogant and delusional enough to think they'll fix every problem in one go, or that the patch itself can't have problems of its own.
Again, if you are of the opinion that you have been screwed, you have every right to not transact in the future until you're sure that you won't be screwed. Also, we forum-goers are a much smaller minority of the total userbase - unless there are a plurality of anonymous users that are disgruntled about the ipad edition or (cross-platform?) multiplayer not working as promised, they won't lose out on enough sales for it to make a big difference in the short run (but see below). Your words? They will make a larger impact than you think because people who are interested in the EEs and haven't bought any yet will look into the discussions and see this disgruntledness.
Caveat - there probably are a lot more people out there who only bought BGIIEE and never joined the forums than we think, so it's entirely likely that Overhaul is trying to make what little money they can at this point. Can we get sales figures for BGEE and BGIIEE, and preorder figures for IWDEE? It would probably help put us in perspective.
I pre-ordered BGEE and played it and had a blast. And played it again, and again etc etc etc And I've enjoyed it alot!
And I pre-ordered BG2EE and I've played it and had a blast. No game breaking bugs. Sure, some annoying problems, but on the whole a great time playing it! Again, and again and again!
And today I've pre-ordered IWDEE and I'm looking forward to having a blast playing that too!
So whilst I wouldn't dream of wanting to tell other people that their poor/negative experiences of the game(s) are somehow invalid or non-existent, please don't think your experiences are representative of everyone's. Because they are not.
Two penny'worth's from a happy Beamdog customer!
Unless the OP is specifically referring to multiplayer and multiplayer alone...which again cannot be described as "game breaking" either. So what is this all about?