I just wanted to say there's a reason I have hope in Beamdog making a great BG saga: there's a some people that used to be part of the modding community working for beamdog now. Because of that people (and others) we got to know what a "fully patched BG2" is. They did that job for free over the years. Now they're working for beamdog, and beamdog needs to make money. I understand that and I'm ok with it.
I think the first version of fixpack was released in 2006, that's six years after bg2 release. BG2EE is been out for a year now. Call for patience.
I have all the patience in the world for modders who use their free time to produce something awesome for everybody. However, once you start charging money for it, its a business and the rules change. I expect certain level of support when I pay for a product and so far I haven't received it in case of BG2:EE. I'm sure Beamdog will deliver at some point, but they really should have patched the game in more timely manner.
I have all the patience in the world for modders who use their free time to produce something awesome for everybody. However, once you start charging money for it, its a business and the rules change. I expect certain level of support when I pay for a product and so far I haven't received it in case of BG2:EE. I'm sure Beamdog will deliver at some point, but they really should have patched the game in more timely manner.
So wait. It's OK if someone labors for hours and days and weeks and months to give you something FOR FREE. But if they expect a fair wage for their efforts, YOU feel affronted?
So wait. It's OK if someone labors for hours and days and weeks and months to give you something FOR FREE. But if they expect a fair wage for their efforts, YOU feel affronted?
I don't really agree with him, but that is not at all what he is saying. When you spend money on a product you expect to get the services you are promised. Its not about a "fair wage for their efforts", its about the agreement you came to. If I pay someone to keep my lawn, paying them a fair wage is no problem, but I wouldn't be happy if there were weeds growing a week after.
That said, a lot of these bug issues can be solved with a simple message or post on this website. There have been multiple times when I ran into a problem and Jalily, Dee and others came to help me within minutes. If you just ask, someone will give you a workaround. Its not perfect, but its a pretty cool thing for the Beamdog people to do. Sometimes even non-Beamdog people have saved me, such as Elminster and CrevsDaak.
I understand the annoyance people have with the lack of patches, but when everyone says they have a bug that is "game-breaking" I wonder if they ever asked for help on the forum. Sometimes its a simple "plug X, Y and Z into the command console" and everything is peaches.
IWDEE matters not one whit to me, one way or the other. Because IWD didn't. I will continue to play BGEE and BG2EE without throwing a hissy fit because IWDEE exists.
For example, IMO the current bug in BG:EE v1.3 regarding the rate of spawns in areas like the Firewine Ruins alone outweighs all the combined bugs still left in the original game, but that's just me.
Since it was my bug report which started that thread about Firewine, I feel justified in saying that it's a MINOR bug. It's not in the slightest degree game-breaking, it doesn't even glitch the flow of game-play, it simply makes one small area easier than it's meant to be. I noticed the error and therefore reported it, just as I've reported other issues from time to time, but this one is no big deal. A newbie player would never even realise that anything was wrong.
In spite of it being a minor bug, Beamdog were onto it straight away, staff members (such as @Dee) were looking into it, testing fixes and responding to the report. I was tremendously impressed with the scale and rapidity of the support.
Yet this, a minor issue and promptly addressed, this is your illustrative example to explain your manifest hostility to Beamdog and all their works? Surely you must be joking.
IWDEE matters not one whit to me, one way or the other. Because IWD didn't. I will continue to play BGEE and BG2EE without throwing a hissy fit because IWDEE exists.
No, that's not how it works. International Internet Forum laws demand you to be either super upset or super happy about this and react accordingly. Middleground is not allowed.
For example, IMO the current bug in BG:EE v1.3 regarding the rate of spawns in areas like the Firewine Ruins alone outweighs all the combined bugs still left in the original game, but that's just me.
Since it was my bug report which started that thread about Firewine, I feel justified in saying that it's a MINOR bug. It's not in the slightest degree game-breaking, it doesn't even glitch the flow of game-play, it simply makes one small area easier than it's meant to be. I noticed the error and therefore reported it, just as I've reported other issues from time to time, but this one is no big deal. A newbie player would never even realise that anything was wrong.
In spite of it being a minor bug, Beamdog were onto it straight away, staff members (such as @Dee) were looking into it, testing fixes and responding to the report. I was tremendously impressed with the scale and rapidity of the support.
Yet this, a minor issue and promptly addressed, this is your illustrative example to explain your manifest hostility to Beamdog and all their works? Surely you must be joking.
I'll just add to this by saying Dee also said this was not a bug and is working as intended. Just because you do not like a change such as spawn rates or unpickpockable drizzt, doesn't mean they are bugs.
You also have to give consideration to the company for seeing how their fix may not jive with the fan base and maybe willing to change it as Dee unofficially suggested in the corresponding poll regarding the issue.
Yet this, a minor issue and promptly addressed, this is your illustrative example to explain your manifest hostility to Beamdog and all their works? Surely you must be joking.
@Gallowglass, that was just an example of how a single bug can subjectively outweigh many others.
That bug is not the reason behind my hostility. Besides it isn't hostility, more like disappointment.
@Dee started to promptly address the issue half an hour after my post, i.e. the one you both quoted. The poll came even later than that.
I'm sorry, but I still haven't perfected time travel, so I can't help but find ridiculous the fact that you are implying that I was not taking in account what @Dee posted.
About the poll, the fact that they are even considering an intentional nerfing, compared to vanilla BG1 not Tutu or BGT, says a lot. I'm not interested in Baldur's Gate Nerfed Edition, but don't mind me, I'll simply keep playing the original game.
@Erg correct me if I'm wrong (maybe I didn't remember it correctly), but do you complaining about BG2:EE while actually don't own the game?:) Are you bitching at it based on experience of others?
I'm asking cause it just occurred to me, that you wrote somewhere, you bought BG:EE, but not BG2:EE.
Just asking, no pun intended:)
Yes, I do not own BGII:EE, and most likely never will, from what I'm reading here.
That doesn't mean I can't read and understand bug reports or complaints from people that own the game. Most of those complaints have been confirmed as legitimate by the developers themselves.
You are entitled to belive whatever you read and I'm not defending beamdog in this post.
But you are making up facts based on nothing. You spend some time in the support forum and then think you have the full picture. You most likely don't have the slightest idea why most of them appear for the ones reporting the issues.
People go all: "It's unplayable because there are a lot of support tickets" even though it's highly improbable that you will see a handfull of them.
I completed bgee without encountering a single bug while people claiming it was impossible to play the game.
But you are making up facts based on nothing. You spend some time in the support forum and then think you have the full picture. You most likely don't have the slightest idea why most of them appear for the ones reporting the issues.
People go all: "It's unplayable because there are a lot of support tickets" even though it's highly improbable that you will see a handfull of them.
I completed bgee without encountering a single bug while people claiming it was impossible to play the game.
For the moment, however, this is a feature request, since - from what I can tell looking at the areas in question - the current implementation is working as intended. (Note that it being a feature request doesn't mean it won't happen, just that it's not a sign of the game being broken.)
@Erg I agree with the people not being happy with the this change. But I am not going to be up and arms about it and calling it game breaking bug when it is far from. It is why I am asking for a sliding scale so that people can play as you want. You call it a nerf, I call it an exploit that allows people to farm both xp and gold getting items earlier than they should be able to afford in the game. To each their own though.
So wait. It's OK if someone labors for hours and days and weeks and months to give you something FOR FREE. But if they expect a fair wage for their efforts, YOU feel affronted?
I don't really agree with him, but that is not at all what he is saying. When you spend money on a product you expect to get the services you are promised. Its not about a "fair wage for their efforts", its about the agreement you came to. If I pay someone to keep my lawn, paying them a fair wage is no problem, but I wouldn't be happy if there were weeds growing a week after.
That said, a lot of these bug issues can be solved with a simple message or post on this website. There have been multiple times when I ran into a problem and Jalily, Dee and others came to help me within minutes. If you just ask, someone will give you a workaround. Its not perfect, but its a pretty cool thing for the Beamdog people to do. Sometimes even non-Beamdog people have saved me, such as Elminster and CrevsDaak.
I understand the annoyance people have with the lack of patches, but when everyone says they have a bug that is "game-breaking" I wonder if they ever asked for help on the forum. Sometimes its a simple "plug X, Y and Z into the command console" and everything is peaches.
Ok, that's fair. However, quite a lot that is being bandied about as "Game Breaking" is hardly that.
I agree with the people not being happy with the this change. But I am not going to be up and arms about it and calling it game breaking bug when it is far from.
Neither am I. I never said that particular bug/feature/whatever is game breaking, but only that it is a big deal for me. Also I'm aware that others may not find it a big deal at all or even prefer the current behaviour.
However, I find ridiculous that most people here don't want to acknowledge the existence of game breaking bugs in BGII:EE, when the developers themselves are defining as such 15 of the bugs reported here including one bug affecting also BG:EE. They are the so called "Level A bugs" that includes crashes and bugs that stop the progression of the entire game (words not mine).
I didn't bother counting the Level B, C and D bugs because they are simply too many.
So how can people argue that BGII:EE has hardly any bugs, game breaking or otherwise, is beyond me.
So wait a minute. Of the "15 bugs" these are across BG1-BG2-ToB and Black Pits. Fifteen (the A list) across all of that seems pretty good. Also, just scanning down the list, most of them are easily avoidable or (like 'game crashes if you die during opening animation') seem rare in the extreme.
Let's put this in perspective. Are things broken? Yes. Do they make the game unplayable? No. Should they be fixed? Absolutely. But I don't think this is a deal breaker.
I can't speak for others but I personally have never said there were no bugs. Merely that I understand the business need to be "working on the next thing" and that I was pleased that it will be IWD:EE because that means that synergies between the two engines will facilitate further bug fixes and enhancements.
There is a BIG difference between a CTD and a game being holistically unplayable. BIG difference. CTD is annoying. Unplayability means that players physically can not proceed through/beyond a specific point.
Beyond that, again take a look at the actual list. There is very little there that isn't highly situational and easily avoidable. See my example above (game crashes if you die during opening animation). I'd bet that less than 1% of consumers encounter this. Again, should it be fixed? Yes. Is it "Unacceptable" that issues like this exist? No.
If you're going to argue semantics, then that's not "unplayable" either. Unplayable would be if you couldn't get past the main menu. But arguing and nitpicking about petty things like that is silly.
For the moment, however, this is a feature request, since - from what I can tell looking at the areas in question - the current implementation is working as intended. (Note that it being a feature request doesn't mean it won't happen, just that it's not a sign of the game being broken.)
Exactly - @Dee says in the above "from what I can tell", and from other remarks in his adjoining posts it seems that this isn't just a bit of polite modesty, but rather that he's actually admitting that he's not the greatest expert on this aspect of the game and therefore wasn't sure whether what he was seeing was truly what was intended. (Which is fair enough, it's a big game, I doubt anyone can be an expert on every aspect.)
But anyway, this is unimportant now. I drew attention to the issue, the staff agreed that it needed looking into, and they visibly started doing so. So far, I'm very happy with the response I've had from the company.
Is it "Unacceptable" that issues like this exist? No.
@the_spyder, considering that you like to talk about semantics, maybe you should get acquainted with the word "subjective".
In stead of responding in kind to thinly veiled insults, I am going to go back to playing BG and happily looking forward to both the next Patch and IWD:EE.
In stead of responding in kind to thinly veiled insults, I am going to go back to playing BG and happily looking forward to both the next Patch and IWD:EE.
It wasn't meant to be an insult. I apologise if you have perceived it as such.
What I meant was that you were talking in absolutes, or at least that's how it seemed to me, without acknowledging that perceptions of bugs is subjective and what's totally tolerable to you, may be unbearable for someone else and vice versa.
I think a big part of the problem is that things have been expressed in absolute terms that are in fact, subjective.
I could claim IWD2 is "unplayable" or has game breaking flaws purely because its in 3E when I don't like or really want to play that system. If expressed in absolute terms, I am factually wrong because many thousands of gamers have enjoyed and completed that game. But it might be better if I was careful to say the game is "unplayable for me!" The game is not actually broken, it just contains features that I don't like.
Which is not to say there aren't any flaws in EE. But it is factually wrong to call the game broken when so many have played it to completion.
I think a big part of the problem is that things have been expressed in absolute terms that are in fact, subjective.
I could claim IWD2 is "unplayable" or has game breaking flaws purely because its in 3E when I don't like or really want to play that system. If expressed in absolute terms, I am factually wrong because many thousands of gamers have enjoyed and completed that game. But it might be better if I was careful to say the game is "unplayable for me!" The game is not actually broken, it just contains features that I don't like.
Which is not to say there aren't any flaws in EE. But it is factually wrong to call the game broken when so many have played it to completion.
BGII:EE is currently broken. The developers say so, not me. You may not be bothered by that fact, but it is still a fact.
What is subjective is whether the presence of the bugs should stop someone from playing the game, not if the actual bugs, including the game breaking ones, exists or not.
Comments
I think the first version of fixpack was released in 2006, that's six years after bg2 release. BG2EE is been out for a year now. Call for patience.
That said, a lot of these bug issues can be solved with a simple message or post on this website. There have been multiple times when I ran into a problem and Jalily, Dee and others came to help me within minutes. If you just ask, someone will give you a workaround. Its not perfect, but its a pretty cool thing for the Beamdog people to do. Sometimes even non-Beamdog people have saved me, such as Elminster and CrevsDaak.
I understand the annoyance people have with the lack of patches, but when everyone says they have a bug that is "game-breaking" I wonder if they ever asked for help on the forum. Sometimes its a simple "plug X, Y and Z into the command console" and everything is peaches.
IWDEE matters not one whit to me, one way or the other. Because IWD didn't. I will continue to play BGEE and BG2EE without throwing a hissy fit because IWDEE exists.
In spite of it being a minor bug, Beamdog were onto it straight away, staff members (such as @Dee) were looking into it, testing fixes and responding to the report. I was tremendously impressed with the scale and rapidity of the support.
Yet this, a minor issue and promptly addressed, this is your illustrative example to explain your manifest hostility to Beamdog and all their works? Surely you must be joking.
You also have to give consideration to the company for seeing how their fix may not jive with the fan base and maybe willing to change it as Dee unofficially suggested in the corresponding poll regarding the issue.
That bug is not the reason behind my hostility. Besides it isn't hostility, more like disappointment.
I've explained my reasons here.
@Dee started to promptly address the issue half an hour after my post, i.e. the one you both quoted. The poll came even later than that.
I'm sorry, but I still haven't perfected time travel, so I can't help but find ridiculous the fact that you are implying that I was not taking in account what @Dee posted.
About the poll, the fact that they are even considering an intentional nerfing, compared to vanilla BG1 not Tutu or BGT, says a lot. I'm not interested in Baldur's Gate Nerfed Edition, but don't mind me, I'll simply keep playing the original game.
But you are making up facts based on nothing. You spend some time in the support forum and then think you have the full picture.
You most likely don't have the slightest idea why most of them appear for the ones reporting the issues.
People go all: "It's unplayable because there are a lot of support tickets" even though it's highly improbable that you will see a handfull of them.
I completed bgee without encountering a single bug while people claiming it was impossible to play the game.
Naah, I don't think so.
However, I find ridiculous that most people here don't want to acknowledge the existence of game breaking bugs in BGII:EE, when the developers themselves are defining as such 15 of the bugs reported here including one bug affecting also BG:EE. They are the so called "Level A bugs" that includes crashes and bugs that stop the progression of the entire game (words not mine).
I didn't bother counting the Level B, C and D bugs because they are simply too many.
So how can people argue that BGII:EE has hardly any bugs, game breaking or otherwise, is beyond me.
Let's put this in perspective. Are things broken? Yes. Do they make the game unplayable? No. Should they be fixed? Absolutely. But I don't think this is a deal breaker.
I can't speak for others but I personally have never said there were no bugs. Merely that I understand the business need to be "working on the next thing" and that I was pleased that it will be IWD:EE because that means that synergies between the two engines will facilitate further bug fixes and enhancements.
Just saying!
Beyond that, again take a look at the actual list. There is very little there that isn't highly situational and easily avoidable. See my example above (game crashes if you die during opening animation). I'd bet that less than 1% of consumers encounter this. Again, should it be fixed? Yes. Is it "Unacceptable" that issues like this exist? No.
But anyway, this is unimportant now. I drew attention to the issue, the staff agreed that it needed looking into, and they visibly started doing so. So far, I'm very happy with the response I've had from the company.
What I meant was that you were talking in absolutes, or at least that's how it seemed to me, without acknowledging that perceptions of bugs is subjective and what's totally tolerable to you, may be unbearable for someone else and vice versa.
I could claim IWD2 is "unplayable" or has game breaking flaws purely because its in 3E when I don't like or really want to play that system. If expressed in absolute terms, I am factually wrong because many thousands of gamers have enjoyed and completed that game.
But it might be better if I was careful to say the game is "unplayable for me!"
The game is not actually broken, it just contains features that I don't like.
Which is not to say there aren't any flaws in EE. But it is factually wrong to call the game broken when so many have played it to completion.
Let's not exaggerate now.
BGII:EE is currently broken. The developers say so, not me. You may not be bothered by that fact, but it is still a fact.
What is subjective is whether the presence of the bugs should stop someone from playing the game, not if the actual bugs, including the game breaking ones, exists or not.
But this thread has gone around in enough circles.
I meant the above as a joke, please don't ban me :P