It's just my opinion, but the shifter is more a roleplaying kit for druid fans, nothing more. I'm sure there are 10 or perhaps 15 shifter fans out there. Why not?
But talking about spellcasting or combat abilities... Well, picking a druid simple for the high lvl druid spells isn't the best idea. There are better class\kit combinations out there. For example, I would rather go for the Ranger2\ClericX dual class (checkmate!). And that is the main reason why the shifter is an underdog - if we compare this ranger\cleric (just for example) dual class with the shifter kit, guess what will be the majority votes? 98% against 2%?
Personally I think the devs should give the regeneration ability to the shifter. It makes sense.
It's just my opinion, but the shifter is more a roleplaying kit for druid fans, nothing more.
How so?
But talking about spellcasting or combat abilities... Well, picking a druid simple for the high lvl druid spells isn't the best idea. There are better class\kit combinations out there. For example, I would rather go for the Ranger2\ClericX dual class (checkmate!). And that is the main reason why the shifter is an underdog
Why because a dual/multi- class is better than a single class? There are plenty of examples where that is the case already.
I'm sure there are 10 or perhaps 15 shifter fans out there. Why not?
if we compare this ranger\cleric (just for example) dual class with the shifter kit, guess what will be the majority votes? 98% against 2%?
Dual class and multi-class options are almost always better than single-class options. A fighter 3/cleric is going to prove to be better than a Priest of Lathander because of your ability to get grand mastery and more than * in two-weapon style.
I'm sure most people who play druids prefer the avenger over the totemic druid and shapeshifter, but all three kits clearly have different roles.
Still, I hardly see the logic in not playing a class due to its popularity (or lack thereof).
I think it should simply be (officially) revamped to just have one form that gets gradually more powerful with level.
What really irritated me when I tried this class though was changing into a werewolf and finding I had lower constitution than I had in human form.
Shapeshifting forms (all of them) no longer get fixed constitution. Though in the case of the normal werewolf form your dexterity will be reduced to 16 (the greater werewolf has 20 dexterity so chances are it won't make any difference there).
What are you talking about? Since when can Keldorn, Korgan or Viconia cast druid spells? Since when can Minsc cast high level druid spells?
As for Jaheira, it takes much longer for her to become a level 15 druid than it takes Cernd.
Cernd also can't cast spells while in combat in his wolf form. And that is the main reason why this class sucks.
Next you'll say, that he's not a tank or a DD - his main role is supporting and spellcasting. Right? Then why even bother to pick the shifter class if we can pick a vanilla druid class or other kits with more spellcasting benefits?
Sure, Cernd can't cast spells while shapeshifted, but since when can Keldorn, Korgan, Viconia or Minsc cast high-level druid spells AT ALL?
Vanilla druids or other druid kits are absolutely NOWHERE as good in combat as shapeshifters, nor are they nearly as tanky. The greater werewolf armor class is absolutely incredible. It's better than Drow Full Plate AND it stacks with rings/cloaks of protection. Combine that with Iron Skins (put that spell on and THEN shapeshift) and Cernd is pretty much the best non-mage tank in the game.
I think the problem with your argument is that you assume that every class has to fulfill one role. Shapeshifters are better tanks and better fighters than other druids, and better spellcasters than fighter/druids.
You'll find most of the people who dislike shifters, say it's "horrible", etc... have never played it, at least for any extended period of time, and certainly not through the entire series.
Why should they even try to play this class? Is there a possibility that most people simple don't like the druid class at all? Imagine how they feel just looking at the shifter's description I know, the "druids spells" blah blah blah... But it is not a strong argument at all. The best reason to like this class would be a good strong (personality) shifter NPC in the game. We don't have any... From what I know, most players go for Paladins and Mages in the BG games. Then Thieves and Fighters. The druid class is the least playable class in BG. Maybe thats the real reason?
Hmmm. Why should they even try to play the class? Hmm. So that they know what the heck they're talking about when critiquing it?
Yes. The Druid class may be the "least playable". God knows you aren't going to confuse it for kensage cheese or borderline broken Sorc pwnage. But it is simply not true that it is not powerful in it's own right. I'm sorry I can't be an expert on a trilogy game experience simply by reading a description like you can, so I can't possibly hope to argue with merely the experience of multiple actual completions with one.
Druid spells aren't a strong arguement? Have you played with them?
The best reason to like this class is it's fun to play, something different, and underestimated. Some of us don't have as much fun being the 10,352,506th person to generically kensage the game. Maybe that's the real reason?
When people say a GWW can't tank or hang with fighters toward the endgame... you are aware that damage will be very similar, you'll have to dual-wield to have as many APR, and the greater werewolf probably has better AC than your fighteriest fighters? Not to mention the resistances, and that equipment effects remain active?
The best reason to like this class is it's fun to play, something different, and underestimated. Some of us don't have as much fun being the 10,352,506th person to generically kensage the game. Maybe that's the real reason?
I'm sure there are 2 or 3 Beastmaster fans on the forum too and they all have the same arguement - "it's fun". Everyone has it's own fun. Think about it.
I think the problem with your argument is that you assume that every class has to fulfill one role. Shapeshifters are better tanks and better fighters than other druids, and better spellcasters than fighter/druids.
Sure. But ranger\cleric dual or multiclass (for faster druid spell fappening) are even better spellcasters and Viconia is a better tank than Cernd technically.
And I don't get it about Keldorn, Korgan, Viconia and Minsc. Why should they be able to cast druid spells? What's the point?
Apparently, we need a cavalier/shapeshifter multiclass character wielding halberds just for fun:
Speaking seriosly, though, it seems that some class/kit/item combinations are less popular than others. The popular choices are often those which can be called OP or semi-OP. But this game is so diverse that one can try a completely new class/kit/item pool each new run.
A shapeshifter is not OP but he's not weak. @elminster 's excellent guide on Cernd shows exactly how a shapeshifter can be quite handy and solid.
In order for Viconia to become even close to how effective of a tank he is you basically have to throw ever AC boosting item you can find at her and give her the Defender of Easthaven (which is kind of a waste given you have fighters that could get it). You'd probably also have to back that up with spells. Even then Cernd has Iron Skins, meaning he can absorb up to 10 hits without taking any damage (7 at level 14).
DO YOU WANT TO BECOME A WEREWOLF?in recent times humans want extraordinary qualities in order to defeat all obstacles and achieve every goals and ambitions In life.becoming a breed of lycanthropus blend of the werewolf and acquiring hircine’s gifts enables one to live a powerful life.join the seventh sixth pack of the hademus,know the shapeshifting techniques,spells,feel among and enjoy supernatural gifts.if you really want to become a werewolf,contact xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx
Elder scrolls lore, but why?
We all know the true father of werewolves was Sauron or the beastlord Malar, if we're going the FR route.
DO YOU WANT TO BECOME A WEREWOLF?in recent times humans want extraordinary qualities in order to defeat all obstacles and achieve every goals and ambitions In life.becoming a breed of lycanthropus blend of the werewolf and acquiring hircine’s gifts enables one to live a powerful life.join the seventh sixth pack of the hademus,know the shapeshifting techniques,spells,feel among and enjoy supernatural gifts.if you really want to become a werewolf,contact xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxx.xxx
Elder scrolls lore, but why?
We all know the true father of werewolves was Sauron or the beastlord Malar, if we're going the FR route.
It is a spammer, just checked.
Ready to ban... However: funny thing that on other sites posts referring to that e-mail are offering spells against HIV, herpes, etc. but on a RPG forum he's offering a TES style lycanthrophy spell. LOL
"Shapeshifters can't use armor? What losers!" "Kensais can't use armor or helmets or shields or bracers? Well, so what? Cast Spirit Armor and they're fine!"
"Shapeshifters can't cast spells when shapeshifted? What losers!" "Inquisitors can't cast spells ever? Well, they've got other strengths to compensate!"
"Druids don't get to full power until 3 million XP? What losers!" "Dual-classes don't get to full power until recovering their levels? Well, a Kensai(13)->Mage is amazing after 2.75 million XP! And they only need 1.25 million more XP than a single-class to get HLAs!"
I'm practicing some thread necromancy here, but it seems that most valid hang-ups about the Shifter would be some HLA love to boost werewolf forms in ToB, maybe replacing the elemental forms.
An HLA would definitely help, but it feels to me like the real issue is that they can't cast spells while shapeshifted, and shapeshifting isn't instantaneous (both of which I believe there's a mod for already. Frankly, if I wanted to spend my turn disabling spellcasting and turning into a subpar fighter (but a solid tank), I'd play a mage and cast Tensor's Transformation. Since I never do that with a mage, I'm not entirely sure why I'd want it with a druid. Sure, base druid spellcasting isn't quite so large a loss, but on the other hand druids can be pretty competent melee fighters without werewolf forms.
The main appeal of this class to me has always been the role-playing idea behind it. The class should be very appealing to fans of the Twilight series, or the Vampire Diaries series, or even the Buffy the Vampire Slayer series, for example. If I were a bigger fan of any of these contemporary vampire-werewolf lore mixup franchises, I would probably be wanting to play the class in BG.
The werewolves in all of these settings are usually portrayed as underdogs (no pun intended) compared to the power of the vampires and witches, as far as raw power. So, it's not entirely inconsistent with the inspiring lore behind the BG player character werewolves to have these PC's be very strong early in the game, but very or at least somewhat weak against the godlike monsters found in the late game.
If only they had the same powers in the late game as a wolfie like Karoug. But, I guess that would make the class overwhelmingly strong against all phases of the game, and therefore somewhat boringly imbalanced. Perhaps if it were based on a fighter template, with no druid spells, but also no armor, (like a kensai?), it would be better to play. There could also be other disadvantages, like being stuck in werewolf form for x rounds after activation, and a chance every round to go berserk. That would make it work a lot like slayer form, actually, causing reputation penalties and other such disadvantages, perhaps even guaranteeing very low reputation and attack by guards in every civilized area if the ability is used carelessly by the player, around innocents.
I never cared for druids and shapeshifting through baldurs gate. I found the options lame or limited. But then I played NwN and the Shifter prestige class won me over in a big way. Then I'd occasionally go back to 2E baldur's gate and be underwhelmed again.
SCS has a component that makes shapeshifting so much more comfortable, via an ingenious tweak. The ability creates a 'paw' you can equip that can turn you into werewolf, on and off again. So you can equip a club from quick weapon and cast a spell, then quickly equip your werewolf claw to jump into melee. It actually makes Cernd a viable companion.
In vanilla game, you can either be a dedicated caster with no melee capability or a meleer with no spell casting-switching between the forms is limited and hard to do in combat. Makes playing difficult and cumbersome.
SCS has a component that makes shapeshifting so much more comfortable, via an ingenious tweak. The ability creates a 'paw' you can equip that can turn you into werewolf, on and off again. So you can equip a club from quick weapon and cast a spell, then quickly equip your werewolf claw to jump into melee. It actually makes Cernd a viable companion.
In vanilla game, you can either be a dedicated caster with no melee capability or a meleer with no spell casting-switching between the forms is limited and hard to do in combat. Makes playing difficult and cumbersome.
I don't use SCS but also have this, I think bgtweaks includes the same mod. Equipping Belm in offhand gives another APR but reduced THAC0, so a dualclassed fighter to (keepered) shifter with points in dualweilding and scimitars make the werewolf form very potent indeed. You can also cast whilst shapeshifted, dunno if that's from the same mod or not.
I have not updated to 2.0 though, so still playing 1.3 with some mods.
That looks like a different tweak than what I have, @Skatan in scs you can not cast while shapechanged and you are shapechanged as long as you equip the special claw item. But anything is better than the vanilla implementation, I guess.
There was also the ancient rebalanced shapeshifter mod from tactics or such, but it was overpowered and a bit broken, kinda. Balance is important, too.
But anything is better than the vanilla implementation, I guess.
QFT. As mentioned above, a shapeshift form which scales as you level up is the only valid option really, IMHO. Make the shapeshifters the monks of the forrest!
Its considered to be bugged by people because the forms don't get what other werewolves/greater werewolves you encounter get. Namely regeneration, immunity to normal weapons, fixed magical resistance, and/or 1d12 claws that do slashing damage. In the case of shapeshifting in the game however this is par for the course (when you transform into a mustard jelly you don't get immunity to level drain or panic for instance and when you transform into a black bear you don't get the 1d6 crushing attack that black bears normally have). Likewise when you transform into any other form in the game items that boost your magic resistance normally don't function.
And that is why shapeshifting, in general, sucks.
The shapeshifter is the only one that is decent enough to care to play it.
In fact, shapeshifting not being a popular nor good (from the powergaming point of view) choice in COMPUTER D&D is an old thing. It started in BG, but the very same problems and limitations of shapeshifting happened in every D&D computer game since then.
In P&P shapeshifting is far more useful, as the forms you can adopt and the situations you face are far, far more varied than in computer games. And the ways to solve those situations are just limited by your imagination.
Comments
I'm sure there are 10 or perhaps 15 shifter fans out there.
Why not?
But talking about spellcasting or combat abilities...
Well, picking a druid simple for the high lvl druid spells isn't the best idea.
There are better class\kit combinations out there.
For example, I would rather go for the Ranger2\ClericX dual class (checkmate!).
And that is the main reason why the shifter is an underdog - if we compare this ranger\cleric (just for example) dual class with the shifter kit, guess what will be the majority votes? 98% against 2%?
Personally I think the devs should give the regeneration ability to the shifter. It makes sense.
Dual class and multi-class options are almost always better than single-class options. A fighter 3/cleric is going to prove to be better than a Priest of Lathander because of your ability to get grand mastery and more than * in two-weapon style.
I'm sure most people who play druids prefer the avenger over the totemic druid and shapeshifter, but all three kits clearly have different roles.
Still, I hardly see the logic in not playing a class due to its popularity (or lack thereof).
What really irritated me when I tried this class though was changing into a werewolf and finding I had lower constitution than I had in human form.
Vanilla druids or other druid kits are absolutely NOWHERE as good in combat as shapeshifters, nor are they nearly as tanky. The greater werewolf armor class is absolutely incredible. It's better than Drow Full Plate AND it stacks with rings/cloaks of protection. Combine that with Iron Skins (put that spell on and THEN shapeshift) and Cernd is pretty much the best non-mage tank in the game.
I think the problem with your argument is that you assume that every class has to fulfill one role. Shapeshifters are better tanks and better fighters than other druids, and better spellcasters than fighter/druids.
Yes. The Druid class may be the "least playable". God knows you aren't going to confuse it for kensage cheese or borderline broken Sorc pwnage. But it is simply not true that it is not powerful in it's own right. I'm sorry I can't be an expert on a trilogy game experience simply by reading a description like you can, so I can't possibly hope to argue with merely the experience of multiple actual completions with one.
Druid spells aren't a strong arguement? Have you played with them?
The best reason to like this class is it's fun to play, something different, and underestimated. Some of us don't have as much fun being the 10,352,506th person to generically kensage the game. Maybe that's the real reason?
When people say a GWW can't tank or hang with fighters toward the endgame... you are aware that damage will be very similar, you'll have to dual-wield to have as many APR, and the greater werewolf probably has better AC than your fighteriest fighters?
Everyone has it's own fun. Think about it. Sure. But ranger\cleric dual or multiclass (for faster druid spell fappening) are even better spellcasters and Viconia is a better tank than Cernd technically.
And I don't get it about Keldorn, Korgan, Viconia and Minsc. Why should they be able to cast druid spells? What's the point?
Fun is always subjective. You can never be wrong about saying something is fun for you.
Speaking seriosly, though, it seems that some class/kit/item combinations are less popular than others. The popular choices are often those which can be called OP or semi-OP. But this game is so diverse that one can try a completely new class/kit/item pool each new run.
A shapeshifter is not OP but he's not weak. @elminster 's excellent guide on Cernd shows exactly how a shapeshifter can be quite handy and solid.
We all know the true father of werewolves was Sauron or the beastlord Malar, if we're going the FR route.
It is a spammer, just checked.
Ready to ban... However: funny thing that on other sites posts referring to that e-mail are offering spells against HIV, herpes, etc. but on a RPG forum he's offering a TES style lycanthrophy spell. LOL
EDIT: this one deserves a place in Best of spambots thread.
"Shapeshifters can't use armor? What losers!"
"Kensais can't use armor or helmets or shields or bracers? Well, so what? Cast Spirit Armor and they're fine!"
"Shapeshifters can't cast spells when shapeshifted? What losers!"
"Inquisitors can't cast spells ever? Well, they've got other strengths to compensate!"
"Druids don't get to full power until 3 million XP? What losers!"
"Dual-classes don't get to full power until recovering their levels? Well, a Kensai(13)->Mage is amazing after 2.75 million XP! And they only need 1.25 million more XP than a single-class to get HLAs!"
The werewolves in all of these settings are usually portrayed as underdogs (no pun intended) compared to the power of the vampires and witches, as far as raw power. So, it's not entirely inconsistent with the inspiring lore behind the BG player character werewolves to have these PC's be very strong early in the game, but very or at least somewhat weak against the godlike monsters found in the late game.
If only they had the same powers in the late game as a wolfie like Karoug. But, I guess that would make the class overwhelmingly strong against all phases of the game, and therefore somewhat boringly imbalanced. Perhaps if it were based on a fighter template, with no druid spells, but also no armor, (like a kensai?), it would be better to play. There could also be other disadvantages, like being stuck in werewolf form for x rounds after activation, and a chance every round to go berserk. That would make it work a lot like slayer form, actually, causing reputation penalties and other such disadvantages, perhaps even guaranteeing very low reputation and attack by guards in every civilized area if the ability is used carelessly by the player, around innocents.
In vanilla game, you can either be a dedicated caster with no melee capability or a meleer with no spell casting-switching between the forms is limited and hard to do in combat. Makes playing difficult and cumbersome.
I have not updated to 2.0 though, so still playing 1.3 with some mods.
There was also the ancient rebalanced shapeshifter mod from tactics or such, but it was overpowered and a bit broken, kinda. Balance is important, too.
The shapeshifter is the only one that is decent enough to care to play it.
In fact, shapeshifting not being a popular nor good (from the powergaming point of view) choice in COMPUTER D&D is an old thing. It started in BG, but the very same problems and limitations of shapeshifting happened in every D&D computer game since then.
In P&P shapeshifting is far more useful, as the forms you can adopt and the situations you face are far, far more varied than in computer games. And the ways to solve those situations are just limited by your imagination.