Yes, I agree, Edvin. When I started this topic I didn't think it would be an argument about sexual preferences, but rather a discussion about the personality and appeal of new npcs, generally speaking, and what people personally like regarding LI's. I guess the discussion got waaay off the track of what I expected, and as such I will not post here again.
How about a npc that doesn't join your party but can still romance. Perhaps in a Expansion campaign you can romance a barkeep's daughter. You can keep visiting her and tell her tales of your adventures and eventually she'll become infatuated with you and will confess her feelings to you later down the road. Or not even that, have a legitimately crazy girl,that happens to be in league with an antagonist, that becomes very obsessed with you. Perhaps if you're of evil alignment, she'll join you if not, she'll be lovingly sadistic towards you until the end where you have to kill her. No?
I'm generally not a fan of most romances in RPGs due to the way they're written and how they work gameplay wise, being more in favor of friendships rather than romances. In the case of BG1 however, I will admit that both are severely lacking.
From his short story I would guess that Dorn is a dominant LI, as he despises his mother's weakness and subservience. I'd guess Neera is plagued with guilt from her past and will have trouble letting her guard down for another person.
As is I don't really have a problem with Neera and Dorn being romanceable. Judging by his short story Dorn even looks like he could be an interesting one. Wether or not they're gay is neither here nor there for me aside from the fact that it should not be their dominant character trait. As @LadyRhian said, homosexuality is not a taboo in the Forgotten Realms. I will however call bull on the reasoning that Rasaad is the optimal gay choice among them. As someone else said, Gay Monk is no less a trope than Lesbian Elf or Evil Gay Man (Is this seriously a trope BTW?). Not to mention the fact that a high fantasy world like FR is literally built by stereotypes and tropes. Dwarves are uncouth miners using axes, elves are snooty tree huggers with bows and light swords, Orcs are stupid savages and so on.
The problem, as I see it, with the whole "gays in games" thing is HOW they are included in the games. Particularly in Bioware games the only confirmed gay people are inevitably your potential Love Interests. As a consequence their sexuality is front and center in their portrayal. In my opinion Fallout: New Vegas is a prime example of three gay characters done right in that they seem like real people. What I'm saying is that there need to be more gay people in these games that are not love interests, both party NPCs and regulars NPCs. I mean, there are like 16 party NPCs in BG2, to my knowledge all of them straight, yet only four of them are romanceable.
More non-romanceable gay NPC's might help alleviate the second problem of their portrayal, which is that due to their rarity and Real World issues it is usually requested that they are special snowflakes that can't be portrayed in any negative light or as any stereotype ( the earlier discussion about "oh no Dorn can't be gay, he's evil!" being a prime example). Gay people are just as diverse in their outlook, goals and experiences as straight people, and shouldn't be portrayed in any special way.
The one I'm having trouble seeing as a love interest for ANY gender is Rasaad. First off, I will freely admit that my knowledge of Real World monastic Orders influence my thoughts on this matter. It is further compounded by AFAIK there not being much information to go on regarding the Sun Soul Order's view on relationships (the view of any other Order is irrelevant, as Rasaad belong(ed) to that particular Order). Monastic Orders are by their very definition solitary places where people shut themselves away from the outside, the better to study their particular Order's teachings, be it martial, religious or philosophical in nature. You give yourself completely to the Order and live by their codes and doctrines. In the Real World, relationships are discouraged in the military and in many workplaces since they upset the balance and complicated the workspace. I think the same would go for a monastic Order, especially if it would be between a student and instructor (upsets the rule of authority) or between a member and an outsider (divides loyalties and kinda negates the whole point of living a monastic life in the first place). And while Rasaad has left the order, he has lived by their code since he was a child. I doubt he would just throw it to the wind just because he is no longer a member.
And @Talanthas, IIRC Danica of the Cleric Quintet was personally trained by a rogue master and did not grow up in a monastery, so I'm hesitant to use her as an example of a "sexual" monk regarding Rasaad.
Finally, the whole "don't want gays, don't pick up the NPCs" argument is just bull, since Neera, Rasaad and Dorn are the only Wild Mage, Monk and Blackguard NPCs in the game. This is not Icewind Dale, where every party member is just a blank slate.
(TL:DR - what, you play these old school text heavy games, but can't be bothered to read eight paragraphs?)
I hate this "doesn't like, doesn't pick", if for example a Gay hater Wizard Slayer NPC is made with awersome stats, peronal items, banters, romances and quests, i doubt people will not complain against him, there will be probally some amounts of requests asking him to be changed or totally removed from the game, an then one of the people that don't like gay content will turn to you and say: "if you don't like, don't pick him".
Does this phrase feel right now? This statement isn't a solution, it's an imposition, even if there's no other way to deal with this discussion, if you finish the discussion with this phrase, you open space for my example above.
I don't care much for what people think (otherwise i wouldn't have posted half of my posts) but to explain what i mean is: Haters exist, i feel them wrong, but they have the right to hate and manifest their hate for some unknow reason in USA (not where i live at least), so my example above was just throw the other side of the coin in the balance to shock with the counterpart of "don't like, don't pick argument".
Ps: it's the same shit that was discussed in the thread "Make drow a playable race".
@Shandyr If you don't want to spark whole pages of flame then don't drop smug facetious crap like that post you directed at me. I'm not some gaybashing retard, and for your information I live in a polyamorous relationship with a bisexual woman and another man so I very much resent your attempt to paint me as the enemy here.
@Shandyr Oh, please. I wrote a long argument that I tried to keep as neutral in tone as I could, and as an answer I get short facetious and needlessly confrontational post adressing only the paragraph where I talk about why I think "don't like it, don't use it" is a faulty argument in this particular topic. You basically strawmanned me.
I don't take offense at differences in opinion, I take offense at needless douchebaggery such as yours. If you want to be taken seriously and be responded to in a courteous manner then don't be facetious! Not everything is a sign of oppression or bigotry, so don't jump to that conclusion so fast. But I don't expect you to understand that, since you seem quite content to take offense at opinion aswell as tone.
Those three points very not the only thing you wrote, in fact they were only a parenthesis.
"If I wrote something like that to you, would you not feel insulted?"
You did write something like that. In fact it was the part of your post that was not in parenthesis. Here:
"So here we are. We have finally reached the crucial insight: There is more to homosexual and bisexual people than just their sexuality.
For some people it will be a very hard, moral decision: Picking up a "gay" character, to be able to enjoy their classes or abilities.
Darn you BG:EE for making such tough moral decisions."
It was wrong of me to fly off the handle the way I did so I will apologize and say I'm sorry for that. But the above quote was uncalled for and you could have argued your points without it.
Yes, it seems it would be best if we agree to disagree. And I will also say I'm sorry you found my original, long, post to offend you. It was not my intention.
Can the pussy cry stop? Serious... "i'm offended"... fuck that, live with it both of you, damn too much whine for nothing, just stop both of you from this useless and needless debate.
I liked the way Elric of Melnibone´s love/hate relationship with stormbringer developed (it was more then just addiction). That would be the ultimate interaction for me and not the average i have to talk to you enough times to bang you finally...
@NWN_babaYaga Have not read the Elric stories, but I'd take just about anything over the modern Bioware romances. The point of them seem to just be about sex. The achievement you get after the sex scene just reinforces that. It's like its written by a 13-year old. I like that in the Viconia and Aerie romances you fail if you sleep with them first chance you get. I mean it seems like they want to portray some kind "real" and mature relationship that is not just about sex, yet how it is structured in modern RPGs suggests otherwise.
I know lady , but that was on purpose, they can swallow the offense and maybe this way we stop of become off topic for 2 or 3 pages at each offensive feel that someone takes from another post. bala's previous post to this silly argument was pretty nice, and i agreed with him there, shand has his good moments also but just wanted to shock and take people of the off topic patch that was starting to be created.
In topic: The modders could concentrate in romances for halflings, dwarvens and gnomes to try to make up for this lack on the original content.
@balalaika86 The tale of Elric is very brutal at times, very strange and twisted and the protagonist is also the antagonist. It realy depends on which level you connect with him along his sad story. It was a very long ride for me and a few times i had to reread whole passages to understand what was realy going on.... But I recommend it anyway if you like to experience something different and darker. Hard to describe the tale of him;)
What about option start game in Normal mode/Pink mode. Normal mode will be normal and Pink mode will be... different. ( Pink mode will includet much more hapy colors, rainbows, unicorns and fluffy bunnies )
All what i want is another romanceable woman what will not be another caster and elf/half-elf. ( Why are developers so sick to made more and more romances with elf women ? )
@callimachus AMA is acronym for "ask me anything". it is a discussion of a sort, where people can ask anything the original poster. and this one happened on reddit a month or so ago, when overhaul opened a discussion with fans about bg:ee. here is the link...
Comments
An recipe to become a cuckold (or to make someone that way).
By the way @kuroshimodo, whatching too much animes dude, too much animes...
From his short story I would guess that Dorn is a dominant LI, as he despises his mother's weakness and subservience. I'd guess Neera is plagued with guilt from her past and will have trouble letting her guard down for another person.
As is I don't really have a problem with Neera and Dorn being romanceable. Judging by his short story Dorn even looks like he could be an interesting one. Wether or not they're gay is neither here nor there for me aside from the fact that it should not be their dominant character trait. As @LadyRhian said, homosexuality is not a taboo in the Forgotten Realms. I will however call bull on the reasoning that Rasaad is the optimal gay choice among them. As someone else said, Gay Monk is no less a trope than Lesbian Elf or Evil Gay Man (Is this seriously a trope BTW?). Not to mention the fact that a high fantasy world like FR is literally built by stereotypes and tropes. Dwarves are uncouth miners using axes, elves are snooty tree huggers with bows and light swords, Orcs are stupid savages and so on.
The problem, as I see it, with the whole "gays in games" thing is HOW they are included in the games. Particularly in Bioware games the only confirmed gay people are inevitably your potential Love Interests. As a consequence their sexuality is front and center in their portrayal. In my opinion Fallout: New Vegas is a prime example of three gay characters done right in that they seem like real people. What I'm saying is that there need to be more gay people in these games that are not love interests, both party NPCs and regulars NPCs. I mean, there are like 16 party NPCs in BG2, to my knowledge all of them straight, yet only four of them are romanceable.
More non-romanceable gay NPC's might help alleviate the second problem of their portrayal, which is that due to their rarity and Real World issues it is usually requested that they are special snowflakes that can't be portrayed in any negative light or as any stereotype ( the earlier discussion about "oh no Dorn can't be gay, he's evil!" being a prime example). Gay people are just as diverse in their outlook, goals and experiences as straight people, and shouldn't be portrayed in any special way.
The one I'm having trouble seeing as a love interest for ANY gender is Rasaad. First off, I will freely admit that my knowledge of Real World monastic Orders influence my thoughts on this matter. It is further compounded by AFAIK there not being much information to go on regarding the Sun Soul Order's view on relationships (the view of any other Order is irrelevant, as Rasaad belong(ed) to that particular Order). Monastic Orders are by their very definition solitary places where people shut themselves away from the outside, the better to study their particular Order's teachings, be it martial, religious or philosophical in nature. You give yourself completely to the Order and live by their codes and doctrines. In the Real World, relationships are discouraged in the military and in many workplaces since they upset the balance and complicated the workspace. I think the same would go for a monastic Order, especially if it would be between a student and instructor (upsets the rule of authority) or between a member and an outsider (divides loyalties and kinda negates the whole point of living a monastic life in the first place). And while Rasaad has left the order, he has lived by their code since he was a child. I doubt he would just throw it to the wind just because he is no longer a member.
And @Talanthas, IIRC Danica of the Cleric Quintet was personally trained by a rogue master and did not grow up in a monastery, so I'm hesitant to use her as an example of a "sexual" monk regarding Rasaad.
Finally, the whole "don't want gays, don't pick up the NPCs" argument is just bull, since Neera, Rasaad and Dorn are the only Wild Mage, Monk and Blackguard NPCs in the game. This is not Icewind Dale, where every party member is just a blank slate.
(TL:DR - what, you play these old school text heavy games, but can't be bothered to read eight paragraphs?)
Does this phrase feel right now? This statement isn't a solution, it's an imposition, even if there's no other way to deal with this discussion, if you finish the discussion with this phrase, you open space for my example above.
Ps: it's the same shit that was discussed in the thread "Make drow a playable race".
If you don't want to spark whole pages of flame then don't drop smug facetious crap like that post you directed at me. I'm not some gaybashing retard, and for your information I live in a polyamorous relationship with a bisexual woman and another man so I very much resent your attempt to paint me as the enemy here.
Oh, please.
I wrote a long argument that I tried to keep as neutral in tone as I could, and as an answer I get short facetious and needlessly confrontational post adressing only the paragraph where I talk about why I think "don't like it, don't use it" is a faulty argument in this particular topic. You basically strawmanned me.
I don't take offense at differences in opinion, I take offense at needless douchebaggery such as yours. If you want to be taken seriously and be responded to in a courteous manner then don't be facetious! Not everything is a sign of oppression or bigotry, so don't jump to that conclusion so fast. But I don't expect you to understand that, since you seem quite content to take offense at opinion aswell as tone.
Those three points very not the only thing you wrote, in fact they were only a parenthesis.
"If I wrote something like that to you, would you not feel insulted?"
You did write something like that. In fact it was the part of your post that was not in parenthesis. Here:
"So here we are. We have finally reached the crucial insight:
There is more to homosexual and bisexual people than just their sexuality.
For some people it will be a very hard, moral decision:
Picking up a "gay" character, to be able to enjoy their classes or abilities.
Darn you BG:EE for making such tough moral decisions."
It was wrong of me to fly off the handle the way I did so I will apologize and say I'm sorry for that. But the above quote was uncalled for and you could have argued your points without it.
Yes, it seems it would be best if we agree to disagree. And I will also say I'm sorry you found my original, long, post to offend you. It was not my intention.
Peace.
Have not read the Elric stories, but I'd take just about anything over the modern Bioware romances. The point of them seem to just be about sex. The achievement you get after the sex scene just reinforces that. It's like its written by a 13-year old. I like that in the Viconia and Aerie romances you fail if you sleep with them first chance you get. I mean it seems like they want to portray some kind "real" and mature relationship that is not just about sex, yet how it is structured in modern RPGs suggests otherwise.
In topic: The modders could concentrate in romances for halflings, dwarvens and gnomes to try to make up for this lack on the original content.
What about option start game in Normal mode/Pink mode.
Normal mode will be normal and Pink mode will be... different.
( Pink mode will includet much more hapy colors, rainbows, unicorns and fluffy bunnies )
( Why are developers so sick to made more and more romances with elf women ? )
Thanks!
and this one happened on reddit a month or so ago, when overhaul opened a discussion with fans about bg:ee. here is the link...
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/z1af7/we_are_overhaul_games_the_team_behind_baldurs
(start from the bottom of the page (press "load more comments") and continue upward.)