Any chance of us seeing a Planescape Torment upgrade?

Surat01

I'd love to see an update to this game with some of the quests that weren't finished wrapped up and maybe some new items like say... armor for the main character. :P

SionIV

Perfectly fine with items and stuff, just no quests or dialogues.

Enhanced gameplay? Yes
Enhanced graphics? Yes
Enhanced UI? Yes
Additional items? Yes
Quests? No
NPC's? No
Anything dialogue related? No

Lord_Tansheron

It's the same engine I believe (well, basically the same anyway) so maybe a lot of the work for an EE is already done? I guess it could be a glimmer up on the horizon somewhere, but whether that glimmer is the shine of T:EE or the tears in the eyes of nostalgic fans, who can say...

Lesse

In my opinion its not really needed. The addon links provided on the GoG.com page were more than enough for me personally, and I found tattoos a more than adequate replacement for armour.

No offense to Beamdog, but I feel any characters/ sidequests wouldn't have any positive effect (but then, I'm biased. The only new party member in BG: EE I liked was Rasaad. The others were far too over the top for my liking and distracted from the story. Give how wonderful the story is in PS:T, I'd rather not have it ruined by childish humour. Sorry if that sounds mean in any way).

OlvynChuru

Lesse said:

In my opinion its not really needed. The addon links provided on the GoG.com page were more than enough for me personally, and I found tattoos a more than adequate replacement for armour.

No offense to Beamdog, but I feel any characters/ sidequests wouldn't have any positive effect (but then, I'm biased. The only new party member in BG: EE I liked was Rasaad. The others were far too over the top for my liking and distracted from the story. Give how wonderful the story is in PS:T, I'd rather not have it ruined by childish humour. Sorry if that sounds mean in any way).

Personally, I think that if they make PST:EE, they SHOULD focus on making more NPCs and quests and stuff, because those things are some of the main parts of the game. If Beamdog won't make that aspect of the game even better, then they shouldn't bother making the game.

Also, I didn't feel like the humor in the EEs so far was childish. I liked the new content.

SionIV

OlvynChuru said:

Lesse said:

In my opinion its not really needed. The addon links provided on the GoG.com page were more than enough for me personally, and I found tattoos a more than adequate replacement for armour.

No offense to Beamdog, but I feel any characters/ sidequests wouldn't have any positive effect (but then, I'm biased. The only new party member in BG: EE I liked was Rasaad. The others were far too over the top for my liking and distracted from the story. Give how wonderful the story is in PS:T, I'd rather not have it ruined by childish humour. Sorry if that sounds mean in any way).

Personally, I think that if they make PST:EE, they SHOULD focus on making more NPCs and quests and stuff, because those things are some of the main parts of the game. If Beamdog won't make that aspect of the game even better, then they shouldn't bother making the game.

Also, I didn't feel like the humor in the EEs so far was childish. I liked the new content.

"If Beamdog won't make that aspect of the game even better, then they shouldn't bother making the game."

There is no way they can keep up the high quality writing of Planescape Torment. While i truly enjoy BGEE and i'm very happy to play it, they did fail on the dialogue, quest and NPC part.

The original Baldur's Gate was much better written than anything in BGEE.

Planescape Torment is leagues ahead of Baldur's Gate when it comes to writing.

So if they can't keep up with the original writing of Baldur's Gate, they have a snowballs chance in hell to even come close to the writing that is Planescape Torment.

I support beamdog and will gladly pay for their games, but after having seen BGEE and their writing, they should stay away from that and focus on the gameplay and graphic part of the game.

OlvynChuru

It's just that improvements in gameplay don't feel like much of an enhancement to a game that is as focused on story as Planescape Torment is.

Also, what don't you like about Beamdog's writing? And what is it about the writing in Planescape Torment that makes you put it on a pedestal? The story of PST is absolutely incredible when you look at it as a whole, but when you just look at a specific chunk of text in the game, it's well written but it doesn't seem like something that requires unimaginable skill to write.

Lesse

Really, I think this is always going to come down to a matter of taste and opinion.

I guess given the game is 15 years old, they *could* make changes to it but as you say - there's not a lot of combat involved. And if you get a few addons for widescreen etc, I doubt you'd need much else. Well, at least I wouldn't.

Characters...the thing is, most characters you run into in PS:T have some past connection with TNO. Not all, but a lot, and that in turns offers depth and context. You could develop characters who knew him, but it might come off as - for example - Hexxat working for L. One problem I had with this is the characters Beamdog had were...shall I say, slightly larger than life? I feel it would be distracting, especially if they were imposing brand new companions. They could introduce new characters, but to what purpose? There's Annah for that, who found your body. There's Grace, who is fascinated by your condition. To fit in with the context of the story, it would be plausible to have a concrete reason for a new character to appear, as well as having a "torment" of their own (to keep in the narrative of the story).

Unfortunately, I just don't think Beamdog is there. They were subtle with Rasaad but they thus far have made very "loud" characters. It's all very well having vampiresses with mysterious paths or blackguards with quests of vengence in Baldur's Gate. But in "Torment" I feel they would only make characters who overshadowed TNO's story, if that makes sense. This might not be true, and I'm fine with being proven wrong. But as a kneejerk reaction and again, not that I'm not thankful for their efforts, but I don't think they could pull of characters who wouldn't prove distracting.

Beamdog's writing...I'm tired, but one example I can think of is where you meet Haxxat the first time. The part where she says it's nice to meet you, and you reply with "don't you mean 'eat?". Yeah, things like that. It's personally cringe-worthy for me, and most of the responses from the new content I just didn't find amusing personally. I don't like the writing in general as you can see the difference between the old and new content. Not to say I didn't enjoy it, but it wasn't really to my taste.

Planescape's writing paints a picture. Within 3-4 sentences you get a very clear snapshot of a character's appearance, personality as well as a whole set of imagery to amaze or disgust you. It's skilled writing that one would see in a novel. Just click any random npc and you get a usually wonderful mental picture of them, which I love personally. Granted, yes, it's just text that isn't attached to the main plot, but it helps paint a landscape of the people and the strange city you woke up in. I put it on a pedestal as it's immersive, and its what has made me replay the game countless of times. It's my favourite game ever, essentially.

Anyway, in short I'm not trying to bash Beamdog. I appreciate their efforts, and I think they made Baldur's Gate even better by injecting new life, characters and fixes into it. But I do maintain I find their writing somewhat childish and trying to make a joke of everything, and their characters could have been handled better. But we'll see, I was just saying I don't really see the need of giving PS:T an enhanced edition. If one came out, I'd buy it regardless.

OlvynChuru

The whole "painting a picture" thing is simply Planescape Torment's style of writing. The fact that it was written this way has less to do with "skilled writing" and more to do with how Black Isle wanted to create the game (I'm not trying to say that the people who wrote that game were unskilled, not in the least). Icewind Dale was made by Black Isle as well, and that game didn't have all the descriptions. If Beamdog were to make a PST:EE then obviously they would also use the descriptive writing style in their new content.

SionIV

It's not just the 'painting a picture' it's also the story in itself, the philosophical questions and the unique and amazing ideas. The thing with Torment was that we hadn't seen anything like that before in a computer game.

It's like saying that other people can write in the same style as Shakespear, doesn't mean that they can keep the same quality that he does.

OlvynChuru

Black Isle made an entire game, while Beamdog merely has to improve it. Beamdog doesn't have nearly as difficult a task as Black Isle did, so I don't see the big issue.

SionIV

OlvynChuru said:

Black Isle made an entire game, while Beamdog merely has to improve it. Beamdog doesn't have nearly as difficult a task as Black Isle did, so I don't see the big issue.

What is it you don't see? The new quests, dialogues and NPC's stand out as poorly written in BGEE compared to the original game. Doing the same in a game like Planescape Torment where the dialogues and the NPC's are the main focus, this would alienate and possible ruin the game immersion. And it's not like the beamdog npc's were subtle, they threw themselves at you and some were impossible to ignore (Neera, Hexxat, Rasaad in BG2).

And i'm not saying that it would be impossible for them to write decent NPC's and dialogues. But from what I've seen in BGEE i wasn't impressed at all, then add Hexxat in BG2EE and i lost faith in them when it came to that part. Then again they are doing great at many other things (gameplay, interface, graphics) and you can't be good at everything.

Nimran

I for one would be interested in an EE for PS:T. Another old game that I never got to play, remastered? Yes, please. I mean, even if it's the same game, just remastered, I'd buy it.

BobC

Unlike IWD:EE, where I'm glad they didn't add any companion, I think they could get away with adding an optional companion like Nordom in an EE of Planescape Torment. Of course, I wouldn't trust beamdog to make a good companion, but it's not like Chris Avellone or Kevin Saunders are hard to find.

JustLeft

Making combat similar to BG and IWD would be pretty great since the combat was really bad in PST and if people don't want to waste too much time on combat they can probably use the Story Mode feature they are introducing in IWDEE.

I hope they don't introduce any NPCs or make any additional quests. Indifference about everything else.

BobC

JustLeft said:

Making combat similar to BG and IWD would be pretty great since the combat was really bad in PST and if people don't want to waste too much time on combat they can probably use the Story Mode feature they are introducing in IWDEE.

You do know torment has the exact same combat as BG, right?

GKL206

I tend to think the old stuff is put on a pedestal because people have got used to it. I don't see the recent additions as being notably more downmarket than "Th-th-that's all folks," "These boots are made for walking," or "Go for the eyes Boo, Raargh!" The old stuff is full of jokey song lines, Monty Python references and the like but put something new of the same type in and it's somehow accused of "lowering the tone".

SionIV

BobC said:

JustLeft said:

Making combat similar to BG and IWD would be pretty great since the combat was really bad in PST and if people don't want to waste too much time on combat they can probably use the Story Mode feature they are introducing in IWDEE.

You do know torment has the exact same combat as BG, right?

No it has a much worse gameplay and interface. The whole wheel system where you have to scroll through your abilities suck, many spells are useless, close combat is the undisputed king and the game is worse in pretty much every way when you compare gameplay and combat to BG.

The story is what made Planescape Torment one of a kind, when it came to gameplay it was bland and boring.

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molloy

I think, the closer a game comes to art, the more problematic this 'enhancing' becomes. I certainly wouldn't wanna hear a Beethoven piano sonata with a new movement added, or watch an Orson Welles movie with a few new scenes. Even if these are of the highest quality and stylistically fitting.
I believe that to some degree the discomfort with the new EE-content actually could come from this and not it's quality. Especially if it's as intrusive as the Neera stuff.

Still, with a medium that ages as fast as computer games it is necessary to keep them technically up to date and Planescape certainly deserves that.

BobC

SionIV said:

BobC said:

JustLeft said:

Making combat similar to BG and IWD would be pretty great since the combat was really bad in PST and if people don't want to waste too much time on combat they can probably use the Story Mode feature they are introducing in IWDEE.

You do know torment has the exact same combat as BG, right?

No it has a much worse gameplay and interface. The whole wheel system where you have to scroll through your abilities suck, many spells are useless, close combat is the undisputed king and the game is worse in pretty much every way when you compare gameplay and combat to BG.

The story is what made Planescape Torment one of a kind, when it came to gameplay it was bland and boring.

1.Interface has nothing to do with combat.
2.Close combat being king is the nature of early game AD&D. How is this different than early game BG1? That's just how low level D&D works. Physical combat is better than direct damage spells because spells were mostly for utility and crowd control. However, there are a few spells in the game that did decent amount of damage (like FFG's call lighting spell)


As a guy that played both games for years, I can confirm that combat was nearly the same in both games. On the other hand, what you should be complaining about is the "encounter design." That's probably why most don't like the PS:T combat.

elminster

GKL206 said:

I tend to think the old stuff is put on a pedestal because people have got used to it. I don't see the recent additions as being notably more downmarket than "Th-th-that's all folks," "These boots are made for walking," or "Go for the eyes Boo, Raargh!" The old stuff is full of jokey song lines, Monty Python references and the like but put something new of the same type in and it's somehow accused of "lowering the tone".

This.

DreadKhan

Updating an old but extremely well done game is very much like art restoration, downright analagous: Done right, an update serves to repair that which time has wronged, as in a painting that has some mold, or peeling corners, or gods forbid, some scratches or other physical harm. The harm a game develops is diffefent than a painting, games deteriorate as we find bugs, exploits, deficiencies, errors, etc. Note, deficiencies show up in good games usually as an afterthought, as a 'well, 'X game' did a better job of dealing with this issue, so now when I replay this older game, it bothers me. Planescape in many ways aged rather poorly, but the actual game, the story, aged very well.

Planescape ought to be cleaned up someday... the interface was harsh, and not as intuitive as BG was. Just don't be a hack restoration expert that draws a mustache on the Mona Lisa!

DreadKhan

molloy said:

I think, the closer a game comes to art, the more problematic this 'enhancing' becomes. I certainly wouldn't wanna hear a Beethoven piano sonata with a new movement added, or watch an Orson Welles movie with a few new scenes. Even if these are of the highest quality and stylistically fitting.
I believe that to some degree the discomfort with the new EE-content actually could come from this and not it's quality. Especially if it's as intrusive as the Neera stuff.

Still, with a medium that ages as fast as computer games it is necessary to keep them technically up to date and Planescape certainly deserves that.

Do you really think Neera is as bad as Greedo shooting first??

I do see your point, but BG1 had a deficit of interaction, made much more glaring by the diamond rarity of those moments when an NPC says or does something other than joining the party, or threatening to leave. Maybe I am unique?

SionIV

BobC said:

SionIV said:

BobC said:

JustLeft said:

Making combat similar to BG and IWD would be pretty great since the combat was really bad in PST and if people don't want to waste too much time on combat they can probably use the Story Mode feature they are introducing in IWDEE.

You do know torment has the exact same combat as BG, right?

No it has a much worse gameplay and interface. The whole wheel system where you have to scroll through your abilities suck, many spells are useless, close combat is the undisputed king and the game is worse in pretty much every way when you compare gameplay and combat to BG.

The story is what made Planescape Torment one of a kind, when it came to gameplay it was bland and boring.

1.Interface has nothing to do with combat.
2.Close combat being king is the nature of early game AD&D. How is this different than early game BG1? That's just how low level D&D works. Physical combat is better than direct damage spells because spells were mostly for utility and crowd control. However, there are a few spells in the game that did decent amount of damage (like FFG's call lighting spell)


As a guy that played both games for years, I can confirm that combat was nearly the same in both games. On the other hand, what you should be complaining about is the "encounter design." That's probably why most don't like the PS:T combat.

Of course interface can have something to do with combat. When i enter combat and have to run through that ability wheel it's going to be frustrating and slow everything down to a crawl, this does affect the combat more than anything.

Close combat is king through the ENTIRE game, from the moment you're in the mausoleum to the point where you're fighting the last boss, melee is much more powerful than anything else. There is no early game AD&D here, there is melee combat first place and everything else is half the efficiency.

I've played both of the games to death and i can tell you that combat in Planescape Torment might look the same to most, but it's something completely different. It's like they started out with Planescape Torment and then upgraded it for Baldur's Gate, not the other way around. Just because they use the same system, doesn't mean combat is the same.

JuliusBorisov

I'm not against PSTEE and would gladly try it if it's made.

But to me I would like Beamdog to finish their work on the IWD franchize by releasing IWD2EE and then start working on something new. The game we haven't played yet. To be able to taste something new.

If they start working on PSTEE it will mean any new game by them will be postponed.

IWD3 sounds very appealing and I would like to see it in 3-4 years rather than 5-6 years from now.

Musaab

I think they should make IWD2EE and PSTEE, and then move on to a new game.

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Blackraven

I would certainly welcome an EE. It's a fascinating game, but in terms of graphics, interface, and gameplay I consider it the IE game that has aged the least gracefully of all the IE games.

Calmar

"It's an older game, sir, but it checks out."

kcwise

Why is it PS:T instead of P:T? Just curious. Isn't Planescape one word?

Of course, everyone writes IWD for Icewind Dale when I guess it should be ID. Three letters are better than two!

And, I'd also like to see an EE of PS:T