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What's with the difficulty..? (Spoiler)

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  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018


    You are right, chapter one and two are probably the most dfficult. This is partly due to the rules of the DnD game, where the characters are weak the first levels, specially wizards and sorcerers. It is probably also due to BG being one of the very first computer RPGs that saw day light -nowboby knew how to do.

    It might be interesting to note that, in PnP (Advanced), a beginning Wizard can end up being hands down the most powerful of any character and by a significant margin. Here's how it goes.

    Level 1 wizard of CN or CE alignment. A 16 CON and rolling max HP (a total of 6). But that's not the end of it. Cast Find Familiar and get a "Special" result (a roll of an EXACT 15 on 1-20) means that the Familiar is a Quasit. "If" the Quasit also has MAX hit points (3D6 = 18), that makes 24 HP. However, that's not the end of it. One of the other advantages that Quasits bestow on their "Master" is +1 level. So, that adds an additional 6 hit points and more spells. And to add insult to injury, Quasits also bestow regeneration so long as they are within range. Your newly rolled Wizard now has twice as many spells (bringing the total to 4 if they specialized), and 30 HP and regeneration AND a companion that can take down a Kobold or three with ease.

    Also, BG was by no means one of the first. The Gold Box games came out YEARS before. And there was a completely different version of Neverwinter Nights on AOL that came out after them. Not to mention the early versions of Ultima which were significantly before. I want to say that Daggerfall was before that, and Arena as well, so that's the Elder Scrolls for you. And Wizardry also came out significantly before. In fact, there were a bunch more than that, I just don't remember them all despite having played most of them.


  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,415
    Yeah its sort of the intended balance of things; you start as a fragile, inexperienced rookie. But you grow in power and capability as you gain experience and better equipment. That is the designed intent of the game.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I think that's a bit uncharitable. There are a TON of rules in D&D and that complexity can really be hard on players who aren't as into that as we are. I feel their pain in that there are definite degrees of difficulty depending on what strategies you choose and how you go advance. It can seem like the "Only" way to go to spam certain strategies. And before you find those strategies, it can seem very tough indeed.

    But the strength of the game in my mind is the almost infinite diversity afforded by the customization. I don't fault anyone who balks at the challenge. I just hope they stick with it until they uncover the richness of the game.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    @the_spyder‌
    Thing is, I was a total noob in ADnD, as well. My first time in BG1 was with a Monk (EasyTutu) and it still took me some time to figure out what THAC0 is.
    I only played NwN1 before that, but that's a different kind of game, easier and with no party-based gameplay.

    Imagine that for a moment: I finished BG1 with a Monk and no previous experience on Core rules.

    Not saying this to brag, I'm saying that if you are careful and persist, it is possible. You just need to adapt to the game, the game shouldn't adapt to you.

    My second run was with a Cavalier from BG1, finally got into BG2 and then ToB with Ascension.

    So I pretty much I dived in deep waters and learned to swim. And others can do it as well.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @Archaos - I get what you are saying. All I was saying is that there are varying degrees of interest in learning the rules sets. You obviously have the desire and tenacity to persevere. Not everyone does.

    I myself am not what I would consider a 'Great player'. I played PnP for almost a decade back when I was young and have played BG countless times since launch. Yet still, I don't consider myself fully conversant in all of the BG rules and strategies. I simply don't have the inclination to memorize (as for example) what counter spells remove what magical protections. I do whatever works and gravitate towards the biggest bang for the smallest effort, but generally don't do a heck of a lot of research to get to that point.

    All I am saying is that different people go to a game like BG for different reasons. Not everyone is as thorough or detail oriented or as strategic as everyone else. Just because you beat the game on Core with Ascension installed (something that after 15 years of playing I don't think I could do), that only means that you cared enough to get that involved. Not everyone does.
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903

    It is probably also due to BG being one of the very first computer RPGs that saw day light -nowboby knew how to do.

    By the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch! Have you never heard of Wizardry, Ultima, The Bard's Tale, Might and Magic, or the SSI Gold Box series (just to name a few I thought of in less than 10 seconds)?

    *sigh*
    OMG Bard's Tale! Time to dust off the c64...lol

    Remmeber Telengard?! Wow, not really an RPG but fun.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,415
    Great memories of Telengard! Ultima and Phantasie are other early favorites of mine.

    I believe Bard's Tale is available in iOS. I sure would like to see those others show up too!
  • proccoprocco Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 915
    @atcDave‌ yep, you can play the original Bards Tale trilogy as an add-on to the port of the PS2 (I think) remake. Man, those games are freaking tough. I have tried several times and can't even make it more than a few screens in. I get slaughtered every single time!
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    procco said:

    @atcDave‌ yep, you can play the original Bards Tale trilogy as an add-on to the port of the PS2 (I think) remake. Man, those games are freaking tough. I have tried several times and can't even make it more than a few screens in. I get slaughtered every single time!

    Try Wizardry IV: The Return of Werdna. I never finished that one.
  • kcwisekcwise Member Posts: 2,287
    Questron 1 & 2, Legacy of the Ancients, Shard of Spring, Demon's Winter, Wizard's Crown! Lots of fun old games on my C-64.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,760
    WebShaman said:

    Xvar - Magic User

    Xzar: WebShaman, you are so aggravating! 'Tis disturbing to my demeanor!

    Also, haven't heard about a ra...ranger called Khalid yet...
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    kcwise said:

    Questron 1 & 2, Legacy of the Ancients, Shard of Spring, Demon's Winter, Wizard's Crown! Lots of fun old games on my C-64.

    my c64 was soo buggy, but eventually I got Legacy of the Ancients to work and I played it all the way through. SO FUN. Very found memories of that game.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    atcDave said:

    Great memories of Telengard! Ultima and Phantasie are other early favorites of mine.

    I believe Bard's Tale is available in iOS. I sure would like to see those others show up too!

    You can absolutely play Bards Tale on Android Phones if you are so inclined. I've got KOTOR for my Iphone as well. Great fun.

    WAY back in the day there was this green wire frame dungeon game. It was endlessly randomly generated. You could go down levels all the way to 100 or more and the deeper you went the more difficult the encounters (rephrased for obvious reasons). I remember that you could have random encounters with elves that would heal you up. It was loads of fun. Not sure how "Role Play" friendly it was, but I enjoyed.

    I really enjoyed the early Ultima games. They were AWESOME I remember. I think I still have the disks.

    Does Zork count as an RPG? I don't know.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,415
    I remember Zork! That was back when we'd have a half dozen guys crowded around the computer together, shouting directions at the guy with the keyboard.... Does that count as a multi-player game?
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Yup. That counts. They were your party.
  • unhidemymenusunhidemymenus Member Posts: 39
    edited October 2014
    Ok just to clarify:

    YES OF COURSE your character gets way better and more powerful in later stages of the game. This does not inherently mean a game gets easier too. Why don't bad guys get better faster?

    My problem is not that the game was difficult, my problem is that the game was ONLY difficult at the start and ONLY because I didn't know what to do.

    So basically the only reason I thought this game was hard was becuase I went the wrong way and got 1-hit by an enemy I wasn't ready for.

    This does not test your ability to problem solve, carry out actions or build a party. It ONLY tests how well you know the game.

    I would much prefer a game that is STILL DIFFICULT when doing things right and playing well.

    Otherwise, it is just a grind of smashing ez enemies in the right order, without really thinking at all about the fights themselves.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited October 2014
    As far as getting one hit killed by stuff that you had no hope of defeating at low levels when you go somewhere you weren't intended to be, that happens in most games. At least that is my experience. And if that Isn't the case, I often think that the game is coddling you. I hated that in Oblivion, the world leveled up with you. That was just a joke.

    Sure, the difficulty starts out tough. But it isn't ONLY because you are low level, it is because you don't have the knowledge of the game that you later get. For those of us who have played the game several times, getting through levels 1-3 in a hurry is simplicity itself. Even if you don't know where to go or how to find specific items, if you know the rules and choose the right spells and class and abilities, it can still be pretty much a cake walk without knowing the specifics of the game.

    Your contention that the game becomes easy towards the end, you have to be clearer here. Did you farm a LOT of experience at some point? Did you rest after every combat and then spam spells that are known to be powerful? Did you happen to have the most powerful NPCs? Did you read walkthroughs that told you where certain enemies were and how to defeat them? That might help us assess the true issue, because any of these CAN make the game unnecessarily easy.

    Also, how did you handle Balduran Island? Was that a cake walk? How did you handle Aec'letec? Was he easy? What about Durlag's Tower?

    There is difficulty in the game, and if you progress on to BG2:EE you will find quite a bit more of it. Some of the dragons and wizard battles will tax you. And if you still don't find the challenge, play with SCS installed and then come back.

  • WigglesWiggles Member Posts: 571

    Ok just to clarify:

    YES OF COURSE your character gets way better and more powerful in later stages of the game. This does not inherently mean a game gets easier too. Why don't bad guys get better faster?

    My problem is not that the game was difficult, my problem is that the game was ONLY difficult at the start and ONLY because I didn't know what to do.

    So basically the only reason I thought this game was hard was becuase I went the wrong way and got 1-hit by an enemy I wasn't ready for.

    This does not test your ability to problem solve, carry out actions or build a party. It ONLY tests how well you know the game.

    I would much prefer a game that is STILL DIFFICULT when doing things right and playing well.

    Otherwise, it is just a grind of smashing ez enemies in the right order, without really thinking at all about the fights themselves.

    I don't want to come out and sound like an ass, but the game was made 15+ years ago. The AI is simple, the graphics will be meh, the difficulty will swing like a teeter-toter, the tutorials will be lacking, and the game manuals will be prized possessions. Even with the EE's, Beamdog could only change so much.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited October 2014


    So basically the only reason I thought this game was hard was becuase I went the wrong way and got 1-hit by an enemy I wasn't ready for.

    This does not test your ability to problem solve, carry out actions or build a party. It ONLY tests how well you know the game.

    I would much prefer a game that is STILL DIFFICULT when doing things right and playing well.

    Otherwise, it is just a grind of smashing ez enemies in the right order, without really thinking at all about the fights themselves.

    Wrong. If you're not ready for an enemy, you use different tactics, run away and come to kill him next time with more levels and better items.

    And it does test your ability to problem solve. You use AoEs to slow them down or trap them, use bows and keep your distance, use summons. If all else fails, run.

    It's not Diablo where you can kill everything in sight. And there's no grinding required in BG1.

    In 3.5E PnP with my druid, we came across two dire bears at level 6. We were three people.
    So what I did, is summon an animal to distract them and run for our lives.
    Post edited by Archaos on
  • unhidemymenusunhidemymenus Member Posts: 39

    How did you handle Aec'letec? Was he easy? What about Durlag's Tower?

    There is difficulty in the game, and if you progress on to BG2:EE you will find quite a bit more of it.

    durlags tower was annoying because of traps and trying to click on the right switches on my phone but I only found the dawrves kind of hard. I just summoned a bunch of stuff near them before starting the fight, then only 2 fought me at a time.

    Aec'letec made me re load once as he casted that strong spell. But for real like a couple fireballs to clear the peoples then just run at him..

    Powerful NPC's? I had:
    fighter/cleric
    misnc
    kahalid
    xzar
    misc's mage lady
    imoen
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    So I find your explanations a bit hard to credit. It is my experience that Aec'letec is widely considered to be one of the toughest opponents in the original game, FAR tougher than Saravok himself. For you, sans any experience with D&D, and on a PHONE no less, to have only had one single reload in that combat is, if not impossible, certainly a very unusual circumstances. The same with Durlag's tower. Taking out the Death Knight is TOUGH under the best of circumstances for most players.

    Far be it from me to doubt the veracity of your statements, merely let me say that they are unusual in the extreme.

    Never the less, let me again state that you may wish to check out BG2 and see how you fair. If you still find no challenge, you may wish to (on a PC platform) seek out SCS which significantly improves the AI and throws in some changes to the spells and such that usually provide challenges to even veteran players.

    I would also recommend against resting after each and every combat and see how that works for you. And if you can avoid it, I'd strongly recommend at least one run through without using walkthroughs. You haven't indicated if you do either of these, but I put it out there that "If you do", you may wish to try without just to see what your experiences are like. Then let us know if you have the same feeling, particularly against some of the Dragons and a certain "Prisoner".
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    This was the game that launched western RPGs into the stratosphere. Puzzles, strategy and tactics, and difficult battles were a second thought when the game was being produced.

    They were turning a first person enter command line turned base style game into a 2d top down real time experience.

    You have been blessed to play games that came after BG that took its frame work and added their own elements to up he difficulty, character building and strategy involved.

    Also note that the EE introduced kits, spells and items that made the game easier than the original.

    Finally, the game is as challenging as you make it. Limiting your resting to once a dungeon or area can significantly change the tactics you employ.
  • unhidemymenusunhidemymenus Member Posts: 39


    Never the less, let me again state that you may wish to check out BG2 and see how you fair.

    I can't it's not out for iphones :'(
  • dreamriderdreamrider Member Posts: 417
    I think you need a real computer ;-)
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018

    I think you need a real computer ;-)

    Even a real cheap computer would probably run a 15 year old game quite nicely. Just sayin....
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Someone will give you a BG-capable computer for free in order to save the trouble of scrapping the unit.
  • unhidemymenusunhidemymenus Member Posts: 39
    I have a computer, i want to play on my phone
  • WigglesWiggles Member Posts: 571
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