The plot is written for a good-aligned character. I had a go once at an all evil party, and also with a solo evil character,. Those were interesting in some ways as a change of pace, but ultimately not very satisfying overall. For my taste, it just goes against the grain of the 'save the world' feel of the story. And I do understand that there can be other motivations to RP. But the feel of the story is organized around heroism and goodness, at least to my brain.
...snip... There's no agree or disagree here, i really liked many of your posts @immagikman, but here you are absolutelly wrong, i know you will not like that and believe me i don't want to offend you in any way, but as i said before to put chaotic evil as stupid is to limit the roleplay and possibilities of a chaotic behavior.
...snip... Edited for brevity not content.
I appreciate the cogent arguments, and they made me dig out my 1e DM Guide, reading the original Definition I have to admit that I am wrong on some of my assertions. The Original Blurb on Chaotic Evil is:
"The chaotic evil creature holds that individual choice and freedom are important and that other individuals and their freedoms are unimportant if they cannot be held by the individual through their own strength and merit. Thus Law and Order tends to promote not individuals but groups and groups suppress individual volition and success."
I have spent too much time working on the overarching motivations and behaviors of the Demons versus the Devil in the campaigns I've been part of and not focused on the PC's and the earthly motivations. So My bad :-)
Reading through the Deities and Demigods I still see basis for my thoughts when it comes to creatures. I guess the real question is where do "Creatures" end and "Characters" Start ;-)
Oh and I never put them as "Stupid" Many a brilliant mind was crazy and was the architect of its own down fall, Prof. Moriarty being in my mind an excellent Chaotic Evil Stupid is frequently used in place of looking deeper at motivation, Paladins are played as Lawful Stupid some times.... But being insane fits my world view of Chaotic Evil better and it is certainly the path of sociopaths.
I like to play myself the way I fantasize I would be in a high fantasy world, so I'm good. (I am very empathetic, and I care a lot about what other people are feeling, even people who are trying to hurt me for some reason.)
"Evil" and "neutral" aren't really represented that well in the game, as has been said. The only really "evil" behavior I see is from players who go around the game robbing and stealing everything in sight, and will kill innocent npc's for their loot; for example, a player who doesn't think twice about killing Algernon to get his cloak would be committing an evil act, in my opinion.
Maybe "neutral" would be someone who will rob houses or spin elaborate lies and plots, and answer every dialogue with the rudest, most sarcastic answer, but will stop short of killing an innocent person to get what they want. Like an "honorable" or quirky rogue or thief. A Han Solo type, pre-Leia, for example.
As you told @immagikman, demons are self destructive by nature (with exceptions as everything in the world, especially in chaos terms where never exist an base formula, everything is mutable), But no human (or humanoind being) can be totally evil or totally good, is in human nature to have both good and evil inside us, so in an evil roleplay while i try to always stick with the evil choices, based on my roleplay sometimes i take the good choices.
It's not the best example, but Valen mod pictures this very well. While she devour Delon blood happly, abusing of the alone and lost kid, she chose to help Rose, the whore in the Bridge district, that's linked to her past (based on the background made by the mod).
By the way, the difficult in play evil sometimes is what call me for it, the game is really made for good characters, that's true and sad (and a mistake that BG EE apparently fixed), so many ppl like to do things outside the box.
In my evil plays i don't start the game making innocent slaughters, i try to earn each reputation loss i get in the hard way: Through quests done in evil ways, and that's trully amusing.
Just hope BG EE fix this, BG never respected the reputation loss, to become the n° 1 public enemy we should work our asses hard, but in BG actually, just kill 3 or 4 peasants and you're the most vicious thing to walk on faerum, this trully make me mad.
I like to play myself the way I fantasize I would be in a high fantasy world, so I'm good. (I am very empathetic, and I care a lot about what other people are feeling, even people who are trying to hurt me for some reason.)
"Evil" and "neutral" aren't really represented that well in the game, as has been said. The only really "evil" behavior I see is from players who go around the game robbing and stealing everything in sight, and will kill innocent npc's for their loot; for example, a player who doesn't think twice about killing Algernon to get his cloak would be committing an evil act, in my opinion.
Maybe "neutral" would be someone who will rob houses or spin elaborate lies and plots, and answer every dialogue with the rudest, most sarcastic answer, but will stop short of killing an innocent person to get what they want. Like an "honorable" or quirky rogue or thief. A Han Solo type, pre-Leia, for example.
There are many examples of Chaotic Good Thieves.....My avatar being my favorite Fineous Fingers
Human psychology is a complicated affair. Arabus13 simplifies things far too much by saying that playing evil in a video game displays our true nature. Why wouldn't the way we act in society reflect our true nature? What indeed is a true nature?
Human 'nature' is a many-faceted thing. I know I really would like to see this world a better place, to live in a world where everyone is happy, not suffering from poverty or want, not suffering from handicaps, diseases or mental pain. I'm mostly the (non-)average goody two-shoes. (I say non- as well, as I often feel quite alone in not being able to feel happy, just surviving life while there's so much unhappiness, injustice and environmental destruction).
However, there's a dark (let's say evil) side to me as well: it's not my 'true nature' but it's part of the many facets. It reflects itself in, if I get very tired or angry with the news of the world (for instance the injustices in Syria and other places, the carelessness with our environment or the blindness to peak-oil) I enjoy first-person shooters and blasting people's head off or playing very gory battles in baldur's gate or other games, with lots of slinging spells and slashing swords (i.e.: hurting virtual people) as a way to release steam. I'd never do it in real life (only as a child I have once slapped someone in anger; when some stranger once slapped me as an adult, I just turned my cheek and walked away). But everyone has some kind of dark side i think. Agression is part of our human evolutionary survival arsenal.
I never said that "role" playing an evil character displays our true nature. I've known many, many gamers who participated in the Player Killer side of games or played the so-called "evil" character. And many, many of those people's true nature shown through to others that interacted with them. Just playing an evil character doesn't mean your true nature is bad. However, when you play these games with the sole purpose of ruining the fun of everyone you come in contact with, that is a person's true nature shining through! Other than pure Single Player RPG's, these games are a social event that people invest real time, and real energy into. When I'm in a group either at a tabletop or online, I'm there to have fun just like my group members. Hopefully, the vast majority of us believes that the "pursuit of happiness" is just important to others as it is to us. I don't know any gamer who pays money to be the victim (well...except maybe Eve Online!).
In closing, the cloak of the internet sometimes has the same effect as being drunk. Our inhibitions lower and the weak can be strong, the shy loner can be a rock star, and sometimes, sometimes, Dr. Jeckll becomes Mr. Hyde.
Man, I love the this esoteric discussion that is being held on the nature of man and his condition. I'm just waiting for someone to pop out "Beyond Good and Evil" or "Thus Sprach Zarathustra" by Nietzche and arguing on the preconcieved notions of what is good in and evil.
Man, I love the this esoteric discussion that is being held on the nature of man and his condition. I'm just waiting for someone to pop out "Beyond Good and Evil" or "Thus Sprach Zarathustra" by Nietzche and arguing on the preconcieved notions of what is good in and evil.
Sallparadise, here is an example of what I've seen (far to many times in online games).
Here is a case in point...
One time while playing Star Trek Online, I happened upon a group of 4 people who were in character and conversing among themselves. I stopped to listen briefly (at a respectful distance) to their conversation.
Suddenly, another player moved his avatar into their midst and began to actively attempt to disrupt their enjoyment of the game. He pretty much made an a** of himself and finally got chased off either by other players who came to the defense of these role-players, or perhaps a game admin answered numerous "911" calls concerning this guy.
Imagine if you will that you and 3 of your friends are at your favorite eatery discussing what you are going to do later in the afternoon. Suddenly, some stranger comes up, pulls up a chair, and begins to get in your face (at your table!), starts yelling, and generally attempts to provoke you into doing something stupid.
Now my table's response to this intruder would be different depending on which friend I had eating with me. One of my friends would arrest that guy for breaching the peace (as he is a police officer), another would record his activity and post it to the internet to allow the world to mock this guy, another (who is a member of the Special Forces) would pound this guy into the pavement.
Predictably, you don't see this happen very often. The reason is not many people are willing to risk the brunt of the social majority in order to satisfy their need to be an a**hat!
In addition, many of us would never even consider interrupting someone in that matter because a great deal of us believes:
What you sow, also shall you reap! What goes around, comes around! Live, but not at the expense of others! Do unto others, as you would have done to you!
For a great many of us, the "mask" we wear and present to the outside world closely reflects whom we are inside. The "mask" is used to hide our secrets and protect us from the world. Others, however, are as wolves in sheep's clothing, waiting for the opportunity to unleash their true selves on those that are powerless and unable to resist them.
Human nature my friend. Civility only holds for us so long. Though, once again the internet also takes the personal element out of life. I'm seen people confident as can be on the internet but fail in real life because they have no personal charm, charisma or ability to deal with people.
These characters believe in using society and its laws to benefit themselves. Structure and organization elevate those who deserve to rule as well as provide a clearly defined hierarchy between master and servant. To this end, Lawful Evil characters support laws and societies that protect their own concerns. If someone is hurt or suffers because of a law that benefits Lawful Evil characters, too bad. Lawful Evil characters obey laws out of fear of punishment. Because they may be forced to honor an unfavorable contract or oath they have made, Lawful Evil characters are usually very careful about giving their word. Once given, they break their word only if their can find a way to do it legally, within the laws of the society. An iron-fisted tyrant and a devious, greedy merchant are examples of Lawful Evil beings.
----
Lawful Evil doesn't seem necessarily bad to me. Motivated self-interest meshes well with the storyline. Many side quests also end in a morally grey area as well, often with bad consequences happening to so called 'good people'. For this reason, playing a more neutral alignment is also an interest character decision. Gods are often seen as being neutral after all, a Baal spawn need not concern themselves with the terrestrial concerns of peasants.
Self interest isn't always considered evil space hamster. Adam Smith for example imagined self interest as a good thing, a thing that benefited all of society.
And I would agree with you on the god/goddesses if D&D didn't already set up almost every allingment with a god.
Human nature my friend. Civility only holds for us so long. Though, once again the internet also takes the personal element out of life. I'm seen people confident as can be on the internet but fail in real life because they have no personal charm, charisma or ability to deal with people.
I agree, as I've said before, these alternate worlds we visit allow the weak to be strong, and the timid to be rock stars! The only real difference between the people you allude to is the element of risk between the gaming vs. the real world are substantially different. They may fail in real life because their fears hold them back. They wear a mask to protect them from perceived failure when none may really exist.
My father would always tell me that what you did and how you acted when no one was looking was just as important (sometimes even more so) as when you were being watched.
For I say, "In all of the Land's creations only Man stands apart from all the others. Even the cold and methodical intelligience of the Dragons pales in comparsion to Man's ability to spread Disharmony and Chaos. We are a vicious lot, prone to baseless accusations, quick judgement, and intolerance. One does not have to look far to see examples of it everyday.
Yet, even I am blind sometimes, for I am apt to view the world through "rose-colored" glasses. For all of us holds a dreadful power, for it has alway been easier to to abandon our Honor and follow our Nature.
It is the age old question asked countless times before. Why does Man seek to appease his Nature, knowing the "benefits" the Land will lay before him, for where is it written in the Stars that Man alone is the Judge of all that is Righteous?
Is it not written, "If we are pricked, do we not bleed?" Sadly, when our blood flows from our body, we are quick to anger. This is the true danger. For once we start down a crooked path, the ability to escape our Nature becomes increasingly difficult. One rash act leads to another and another until we are no longer able to recognize Truth from Consequence.
So I say to you, "Live, but not at the expense of others. Be strong, but not to oppress the weak. Be forceful, but do not force your values on others. Learn, but keep knowledge not to yourself. Be proud, but stay mindful of those who have helped you in the past." - Thomas of the Darkwoods (circa 1215 Year of the Falling Sky)
Evil as I like single class characters and I want to end up with the coolest, strongest, single class NPCs in BG2:ToB (Viconia, Edwin, Korgan and Sarevok).
Now that the EEs and new characters come around, I think I'm gonna make 3 characters (Good, Neutral, Evil), with matching team.
Here's hope they might give us a little more customization to the existing characters.
Evil as I like single class characters and I want to end up with the coolest, strongest, single class NPCs in BG2:ToB (Viconia, Edwin, Korgan and Sarevok).
Now that the EEs and new characters come around, I think I'm gonna make 3 characters (Good, Neutral, Evil), with matching team.
Here's hope they might give us a little more customization to the existing characters.
Ah....but you could have that party with a Neutral alignment and avoid all that nasty 'evilness'.
Always played BG with a Paladin so BG/Sword Coast meant I had to really stick with the good/neutral characters (the evil ones always seemed to die on me!).
In Shadows/Bhaal, I had every NPC in the party at some point, just so I could play out as much of the game as possible - the small reduction in reputation you get whilst having an evil NPC with you for their quest doesn't make too much difference and I can put up with their moaning about being a goody goody...
In my evil plays i don't start the game making innocent slaughters, i try to earn each reputation loss i get in the hard way: Through quests done in evil ways, and that's trully amusing.
I play the same way, although it's hard to not "cull" Firebead in Prologue for the XP and the Adventurer's Robe. I always make sure that's the last "task" I do because Winthrop turns hostile afterwards. The monks, however, don't seem to mind.
I play the same way, although it's hard to not "cull" Firebead in Prologue for the XP and the Adventurer's Robe. I always make sure that's the last "task" I do because Winthrop turns hostile afterwards. The monks, however, don't seem to mind.
You'd probably be better off taking him out in Beregost after doing his mission there; not only is he alone in his house, he also has a rather easy quest for you to do.
I always play as a paladin therefore, I don't have much choice regarding alignments. The interesting part is that even though I enjoy being a heroic knight who protects the good and fights evil, I find it difficult to play with only "good" party members in my team. I like to have Edwin and Viconia for instance. I can't stand the likes of Dynaheir or Khalid for too long.
How do you guys manage to have such a mixed party, especially with a paladin protagonist?
Evil as I like single class characters and I want to end up with the coolest, strongest, single class NPCs in BG2:ToB (Viconia, Edwin, Korgan and Sarevok).
Now that the EEs and new characters come around, I think I'm gonna make 3 characters (Good, Neutral, Evil), with matching team.
Here's hope they might give us a little more customization to the existing characters.
Ah....but you could have that party with a Neutral alignment and avoid all that nasty 'evilness'.
Well... first of all, I don't see why I would need to "avoid" it. Unlike the user who posted right before you, I don't believe that acting evil on a videogame makes me a bad person... =_____=
Plus... yes, you're right, I guess I could... but why should I go for lame and useless characters when I can have the cool and useful ones? I mean, do you reall want to compare losers like CERND, YOSHIMO and JAN with VICONIA (best cleric), SAREVOK (best warrior), KORGAN (best warrior in SoA) and EDWIN (best mage)? It's just unfair to them, don't you think? I do carry around HAER'DALIS, though, 'cause of lack of enough baddies. Hes' not terribly useful, either, but as an extremely cool CN Tiefling he fits the theme.
I mean, do you reall want to compare losers like CERND, YOSHIMO and JAN with VICONIA (best cleric), SAREVOK (best warrior), KORGAN (best warrior in SoA) and EDWIN (best mage)? It's just unfair to them, don't you think?
I actually think Jan is awesome having along for the party banter. And he's not mechanically a bad character either.
I play the same way, although it's hard to not "cull" Firebead in Prologue for the XP and the Adventurer's Robe. I always make sure that's the last "task" I do because Winthrop turns hostile afterwards. The monks, however, don't seem to mind.
You'd probably be better off taking him out in Beregost after doing his mission there; not only is he alone in his house, he also has a rather easy quest for you to do.
Oh, I completely take advantage of the glitch where he reappears in Beregost -- more XP for fetching "The Fateful Coin," trading it for "The Dead Three," and seeing him off to the hereafter once again. :-)
I actually think Jan is awesome having along for the party banter. And he's not mechanically a bad character either.
Gameplay-wise, he's not too shabby (but I'm a thief). I also keep him in my evil team, before Sarevok arrives, along with Haer'Dalis (2 CN and 4 Evil). However, in the long run, he becomes extremely annoying to listen to. But it's ok... he fits with my image of a low-mid level party, but when I reach the epic levels I prefer to have somebody much more... well... epic.
Anyway... as I said, I'm going to make 3 different characters (evil, neutral, good). Let's see what the awesome Jan, Cernd and Yoshimo will bring to my neutral party (ugh...). Needless to say, I'm going to romance the **** out of Viconia and make her neutral ASAP (ToB, I'm afraid).
Comments
"The chaotic evil creature holds that individual choice and freedom are important and that other individuals and their freedoms are unimportant if they cannot be held by the individual through their own strength and merit. Thus Law and Order tends to promote not individuals but groups and groups suppress individual volition and success."
I have spent too much time working on the overarching motivations and behaviors of the Demons versus the Devil in the campaigns I've been part of and not focused on the PC's and the earthly motivations. So My bad :-)
Reading through the Deities and Demigods I still see basis for my thoughts when it comes to creatures. I guess the real question is where do "Creatures" end and "Characters" Start ;-)
Oh and I never put them as "Stupid" Many a brilliant mind was crazy and was the architect of its own down fall, Prof. Moriarty being in my mind an excellent Chaotic Evil
"Evil" and "neutral" aren't really represented that well in the game, as has been said. The only really "evil" behavior I see is from players who go around the game robbing and stealing everything in sight, and will kill innocent npc's for their loot; for example, a player who doesn't think twice about killing Algernon to get his cloak would be committing an evil act, in my opinion.
Maybe "neutral" would be someone who will rob houses or spin elaborate lies and plots, and answer every dialogue with the rudest, most sarcastic answer, but will stop short of killing an innocent person to get what they want. Like an "honorable" or quirky rogue or thief. A Han Solo type, pre-Leia, for example.
It's not the best example, but Valen mod pictures this very well. While she devour Delon blood happly, abusing of the alone and lost kid, she chose to help Rose, the whore in the Bridge district, that's linked to her past (based on the background made by the mod).
By the way, the difficult in play evil sometimes is what call me for it, the game is really made for good characters, that's true and sad (and a mistake that BG EE apparently fixed), so many ppl like to do things outside the box.
In my evil plays i don't start the game making innocent slaughters, i try to earn each reputation loss i get in the hard way: Through quests done in evil ways, and that's trully amusing.
Just hope BG EE fix this, BG never respected the reputation loss, to become the n° 1 public enemy we should work our asses hard, but in BG actually, just kill 3 or 4 peasants and you're the most vicious thing to walk on faerum, this trully make me mad.
In closing, the cloak of the internet sometimes has the same effect as being drunk. Our inhibitions lower and the weak can be strong, the shy loner can be a rock star, and sometimes, sometimes, Dr. Jeckll becomes Mr. Hyde.
Here is a case in point...
One time while playing Star Trek Online, I happened upon a group of 4 people who were in character and conversing among themselves. I stopped to listen briefly (at a respectful distance) to their conversation.
Suddenly, another player moved his avatar into their midst and began to actively attempt to disrupt their enjoyment of the game. He pretty much made an a** of himself and finally got chased off either by other players who came to the defense of these role-players, or perhaps a game admin answered numerous "911" calls concerning this guy.
Imagine if you will that you and 3 of your friends are at your favorite eatery discussing what you are going to do later in the afternoon. Suddenly, some stranger comes up, pulls up a chair, and begins to get in your face (at your table!), starts yelling, and generally attempts to provoke you into doing something stupid.
Now my table's response to this intruder would be different depending on which friend I had eating with me. One of my friends would arrest that guy for breaching the peace (as he is a police officer), another would record his activity and post it to the internet to allow the world to mock this guy, another (who is a member of the Special Forces) would pound this guy into the pavement.
Predictably, you don't see this happen very often. The reason is not many people are willing to risk the brunt of the social majority in order to satisfy their need to be an a**hat!
In addition, many of us would never even consider interrupting someone in that matter because a great deal of us believes:
What you sow, also shall you reap!
What goes around, comes around!
Live, but not at the expense of others!
Do unto others, as you would have done to you!
For a great many of us, the "mask" we wear and present to the outside world closely reflects whom we are inside. The "mask" is used to hide our secrets and protect us from the world. Others, however, are as wolves in sheep's clothing, waiting for the opportunity to unleash their true selves on those that are powerless and unable to resist them.
I'm seen people confident as can be on the internet but fail in real life because they have no personal charm, charisma or ability to deal with people.
These characters believe in using society and its laws to benefit themselves. Structure and organization elevate those who deserve to rule as well as provide a clearly defined hierarchy between master and servant. To this end, Lawful Evil characters support laws and societies that protect their own concerns. If someone is hurt or suffers because of a law that benefits Lawful Evil characters, too bad. Lawful Evil characters obey laws out of fear of punishment. Because they may be forced to honor an unfavorable contract or oath they have made, Lawful Evil characters are usually very careful about giving their word. Once given, they break their word only if their can find a way to do it legally, within the laws of the society. An iron-fisted tyrant and a devious, greedy merchant are examples of Lawful Evil beings.
----
Lawful Evil doesn't seem necessarily bad to me. Motivated self-interest meshes well with the storyline. Many side quests also end in a morally grey area as well, often with bad consequences happening to so called 'good people'. For this reason, playing a more neutral alignment is also an interest character decision. Gods are often seen as being neutral after all, a Baal spawn need not concern themselves with the terrestrial concerns of peasants.
Adam Smith for example imagined self interest as a good thing, a thing that benefited all of society.
And I would agree with you on the god/goddesses if D&D didn't already set up almost every allingment with a god.
My father would always tell me that what you did and how you acted when no one was looking was just as important (sometimes even more so) as when you were being watched.
For I say, "In all of the Land's creations only Man stands apart from all the others. Even the cold and methodical intelligience of the Dragons pales in comparsion to Man's ability to spread Disharmony and Chaos. We are a vicious lot, prone to baseless accusations, quick judgement, and intolerance. One does not have to look far to see examples of it everyday.
Yet, even I am blind sometimes, for I am apt to view the world through "rose-colored" glasses. For all of us holds a dreadful power, for it has alway been easier to to abandon our Honor and follow our Nature.
It is the age old question asked countless times before. Why does Man seek to appease his Nature, knowing the "benefits" the Land will lay before him, for where is it written in the Stars that Man alone is the Judge of all that is Righteous?
Is it not written, "If we are pricked, do we not bleed?" Sadly, when our blood flows from our body, we are quick to anger. This is the true danger. For once we start down a crooked path, the ability to escape our Nature becomes increasingly difficult. One rash act leads to another and another until we are no longer able to recognize Truth from Consequence.
So I say to you, "Live, but not at the expense of others. Be strong, but not to oppress the weak. Be forceful, but do not force your values on others. Learn, but keep knowledge not to yourself. Be proud, but stay mindful of those who have helped you in the past." - Thomas of the Darkwoods (circa 1215 Year of the Falling Sky)
Now that the EEs and new characters come around, I think I'm gonna make 3 characters (Good, Neutral, Evil), with matching team.
Here's hope they might give us a little more customization to the existing characters.
How you act and what you do when no one is watching is the measure of your character. It is the ture measure.
In Shadows/Bhaal, I had every NPC in the party at some point, just so I could play out as much of the game as possible - the small reduction in reputation you get whilst having an evil NPC with you for their quest doesn't make too much difference and I can put up with their moaning about being a goody goody...
How do you guys manage to have such a mixed party, especially with a paladin protagonist?
Plus... yes, you're right, I guess I could... but why should I go for lame and useless characters when I can have the cool and useful ones? I mean, do you reall want to compare losers like CERND, YOSHIMO and JAN with VICONIA (best cleric), SAREVOK (best warrior), KORGAN (best warrior in SoA) and EDWIN (best mage)? It's just unfair to them, don't you think?
I do carry around HAER'DALIS, though, 'cause of lack of enough baddies. Hes' not terribly useful, either, but as an extremely cool CN Tiefling he fits the theme.
Well said, I like it! What about the reputation? How do you lower it when the need arrives without being too "evil"?
I also keep him in my evil team, before Sarevok arrives, along with Haer'Dalis (2 CN and 4 Evil).
However, in the long run, he becomes extremely annoying to listen to.
But it's ok... he fits with my image of a low-mid level party, but when I reach the epic levels I prefer to have somebody much more... well... epic.
Anyway... as I said, I'm going to make 3 different characters (evil, neutral, good).
Let's see what the awesome Jan, Cernd and Yoshimo will bring to my neutral party (ugh...).
Needless to say, I'm going to romance the **** out of Viconia and make her neutral ASAP (ToB, I'm afraid).