I disagree that hla are considered cheating. While they were added in my game by mistake, I found out that they belongs here in hof. BTW there only two imbalanced hla here in hof. It's hardiness and deva. While deva shines only in undead battles, other thant that she loses in power to stalker. Hardiness is op a little but you can bump resistances to ridiculous amounts even without this hla. If hla are cheats then they sre even bigger cheats added in the game by default. Dual wielding swords of action with improved haste, backstabbing with mislead, fire resistance higher than 100% and shrowd of flame or other fire spells, chan contingency, etc. Even laughing stocks called wizards including malavon, they are so weak and stupid that we can consider that a cheating too. And if somebody point out that enemies doesn't have hla - of course they don't have, they are too small in lvl!It's only possible of that enourmous amounts of exp that hof gives you (is that cheat too?) Hla fits perfectly in this game because hof is pretty much unbalanced from the beginning.
I disagree that hla are considered cheating. While they were added in my game by mistake, I found out that they belongs here in hof. BTW there only two imbalanced hla here in hof. It's hardiness and deva. While deva shines only in undead battles, other thant that she loses in power to stalker. Hardiness is op a little but you can bump resistances to ridiculous amounts even without this hla. If hla are cheats then they sre even bigger cheats added in the game by default. Dual wielding swords of action with improved haste, backstabbing with mislead, fire resistance higher than 100% and shrowd of flame or other fire spells, chan contingency, etc. Even laughing stocks called wizards including malavon, they are so weak and stupid that we can consider that a cheating too. And if somebody point out that enemies doesn't have hla - of course they don't have, they are too small in lvl!It's only possible of that enourmous amounts of exp that hof gives you (is that cheat too?) Hla fits perfectly in this game because hof is pretty much unbalanced from the beginning.
Giving yourself abilities that weren't intended that make the game easier is definitely cheating. Your game though so enjoy it as you like.
Giving yourself abilities that weren't intended that make the game easier is definitely cheating. Your game though so enjoy it as you like.
Well if we follow your logic then, comparing original and enhanced, we can call all this new kits, spells that enemies don't use, dual wielding and of course new mods - we can call this all cheating.
Giving yourself abilities that weren't intended that make the game easier is definitely cheating. Your game though so enjoy it as you like.
Well if we follow your logic then, comparing original and enhanced, we can call all this new kits, spells that enemies don't use, dual wielding and of course new mods - we can call this all cheating.
Those were included in the game by the developers. HLAs were disabled by the developers because they felt they were too powerful. That should tell you a lot.
It is your game though - none of us care if you want to cheat. Just admit that it is cheating.
You mean the 2nd edition PnP rules that don't have HLAs and assume characters will retire before they reach level 20?
Do you dare the mock the almighty PnP rules of BG2 ToB?
I have to wonder why they never considered making first an EE of IWD2 and then converting to that EE BG1, 2 and IWD.
Because that would have meant 5 times as much work and as the BG series was the main thing fans wanted it would have been silly to delay it and release IWD2 first which wouldn't have been a financially viable move. also the bg games would probably not have worked with the IWD2 implementation of the hybrid 2nd/3rd edition ruleset.
You mean the 2nd edition PnP rules that don't have HLAs and assume characters will retire before they reach level 20?
Do not know much about 2nd Edition do you... ignorance is no excuse.
???
There was a High Level Campaigns book for characters approaching God-like levels, but core books all stopped at 20th level. No HLAs. When high level stuff was implimented it was quite different from the IE interpretation, it had more to do with special divine favor, quest spells, and domain building sorts of things.
Not that there's anything wrong with Bioware coming up with something, but it's very different from anything I've ever seen in PNP.
And yet, still closer than Fardragon's misinterpretation...
Where's the misinterpretation? 2E was designed for play in levels 1 to 10. After that it quickly fell apart as demihumans hit level caps, mages became gods and fighters continued to do nothing but go whack whack whack.
I think it works pretty well into the mid-teens. But beyond that the characters are pretty earth shakingly powerful. Even a fighter, will generally have the sort of resources; magic items, allies, etc. that they are pretty amazing. All without HLAs. The most powerful character I ever played was a (2E) paladin in his upper teens. But that was game breaking enough, the DM would only let him "out" for special adventures. The rest of the time he was busy with "king" sort of stuff.
I remember one (2nd edition) game where a 14th level druid (with some preparation) took out and advancing army, lead by a Pit Fiend, almost single handedly.
There is nothing in IWD that qualifies as a "high level campaign" anyway. A couple of middle-management demons and devils, and a fairly lack-lustre dragon. Marleths and Pit Fiends are trash mobs in a high level campaign.
2E was designed for play in levels 1 to 10. After that it quickly fell apart as demihumans hit level caps, mages became gods and fighters continued to do nothing but go whack whack whack.
Not only is there a rulebook for high level play that granted special abilities above 20th level - abilities like: All-round Attack (Whirlwind) Bravery (Resist Magic) Death Blow Frighten/Challenge (War Cry) Hardiness 10th Power Spells Quest Spell Access Improved Scroll Use/Magic Item Use (UAI) Item Creation (Alchemy/Scribe Scrolls) Classify Traps (Traps) Evasion Improvised Attack (Assassination) Sense Danger (Avoid Death)
But even ignoring that, the remaining statements are simply not supported by facts. The basic rulebooks provide for level 20 as a minimum without stipulating any maximum; they also provide for numerous ways to surpass the so-called demihuman level caps - and the High Level Campaigns book provides for even more.
Just as in BG2/ToB/IWD, PnP high mages are quite powerful but they are not gods, nor do Fighters only 'whack'. As for whether IWD is a "high level campaign" or not, although there is certainly personal interpretation involved, the rulebook stipulates that any character above 10th level is considered high-level.
Again, High Levels Campaigns was an optional book. The core rules strongly suggested no player should ever see 20th level. In 35 years of AD&D (1E & 2E) I can only think of two characters I ever saw top 20th (apart from a few designed as God-like beings from the start), and I've never known a DM who actually used those optional published rules.
Of course that's anecdotal and proves nothing, except to say I don't believe the game was ever meant to be played to such high levels. I think it's balanced best from about third to the mid teens. It sort of gets silly after that. Of course sometimes silly is fun too, but I think it's wrong to call this intended or normal. The balance of the core rules is such that after Nineth or Tenth level it is expected most characters will shift into more of an empire building sort of mode. The D&D Boxed Sets offered more high level guidance than AD&D ever did, and that was really a very different game.
But an official book nonetheless - and one that deals with characters above 20th level, which would be the point of the discussion.
More than disproves the "no HLA in 2nd Edition" nonsense.
A late addition book that no one I know ever used. A book that make it quite clear what a "high level campaign" is, and IWD does not qualify. A level 15 foe with inflated hit points is still level 15. ToB is a high level campagn - it features a protagonist who is more than half way to becoming a god. A book that gives high level characters abilities that are quite different to ToB, aquired in a different way, and are largely focused on empire building.
As an excuse for hacking your characters to make them uber-powerful, it's pretty feeble.
Just admit you like to play the game with ridicoulously overpowered characters and move on.
A book that make it quite clear what a "high level campaign" is, and IWD does not qualify. A level 15 foe with inflated hit points is still level 15.
Indeed, High Level Campaigns defines 10th level and above as high level, so yes that lvl15 for with inflated HP is still 15th and still high level acording to the rules.
A book that gives high level characters abilities that are quite different to ToB, aquired in a different way, and are largely focused on empire building.
Ignorance or more lies? It is hard to determine if you are making things up to deliberately obfuscate the issue or if you really do not know. Either way reflects poorly upon you.
Just admit you like to play the game with ridicoulously overpowered characters and move on.
We do enjoy playing with powerful characters, but if you had any reading comprehension you would know we are not the one doing it. We are merely pointing out how wrong and bad at trolling you are.
I strongly suggest you stay on topic, please. The OP has asked for your advice on what weapons should dual-wielders concentrate in IWDEE.
So, please, no further talking about whether modding is legitimate or not, whether or not high-level characters were considered in PnP, as well as other not-OP related stuff.
I admit to having forgotten about the existance of the High Level Campaign's source book. Given that I looked through it in a shop around 25 years ago and rejected it as cheese for munchkins, I don't think that is very surprising. Certainly, from what I remember, it featured spells that took weeks to cast, stuff on empire building and divine accention (although I might be confusing that with the 3rd edition book).
Don't think anyone objects to modding the game any way you like. The disagreement is that playing with HLAs added is somehow more "correct" than playing the game as released, and that they add anything to the game apart from setting the difficulty of HoF mode to "trivial". Certainly, if you included every obscure soucebook and dragon article ever published, you could include everything imaginable from freezing to death to space ships.
In answer to the OP: unless you plan to cheat and include HLAs then Two Weapon Fighting Style with an offhand speed weapon is the way to go.
Your options for speed weapons are (in order that they can be acquired I think): 1. Fast Flail +2 (random) 2. Bastard Sword of Action +1 (random) 3. Valiant Scimitar +2 HoW: 4. Longsword of Action +4 5. Fast Flail +2 ToL: 6. Longsword of Action +4
My kensage was eventually relegated to the Bastard Sword of Action +1 as my Swashbuckler/Mage got both longswords of action, Kensei/druid gets Valiant (eventually) and PriestoL/Fighter and Kensei/Cleric get a Fast Flail each. Ymmv.
There is also a Ring of Reckless Action which grants +1 APR. Not sure if it stacks with a fast weapon.
For mainhand I can recommend Morningstar, Axe, Longsword, Mace ... Others mention Hammer but that proficiency has thus far been a complete disappointment for me.
Comments
While they were added in my game by mistake, I found out that they belongs here in hof.
BTW there only two imbalanced hla here in hof. It's hardiness and deva. While deva shines only in undead battles, other thant that she loses in power to stalker. Hardiness is op a little but you can bump resistances to ridiculous amounts even without this hla.
If hla are cheats then they sre even bigger cheats added in the game by default. Dual wielding swords of action with improved haste, backstabbing with mislead, fire resistance higher than 100% and shrowd of flame or other fire spells, chan contingency, etc.
Even laughing stocks called wizards including malavon, they are so weak and stupid that we can consider that a cheating too.
And if somebody point out that enemies doesn't have hla - of course they don't have, they are too small in lvl!It's only possible of that enourmous amounts of exp that hof gives you (is that cheat too?)
Hla fits perfectly in this game because hof is pretty much unbalanced from the beginning.
It is your game though - none of us care if you want to cheat. Just admit that it is cheating.
So what? Everyone has done it at some stage.
Get on topic or go home!
I have to wonder why they never considered making first an EE of IWD2 and then converting to that EE BG1, 2 and IWD.
There was a High Level Campaigns book for characters approaching God-like levels, but core books all stopped at 20th level. No HLAs. When high level stuff was implimented it was quite different from the IE interpretation, it had more to do with special divine favor, quest spells, and domain building sorts of things.
Not that there's anything wrong with Bioware coming up with something, but it's very different from anything I've ever seen in PNP.
The most powerful character I ever played was a (2E) paladin in his upper teens. But that was game breaking enough, the DM would only let him "out" for special adventures. The rest of the time he was busy with "king" sort of stuff.
There is nothing in IWD that qualifies as a "high level campaign" anyway. A couple of middle-management demons and devils, and a fairly lack-lustre dragon. Marleths and Pit Fiends are trash mobs in a high level campaign.
All-round Attack (Whirlwind)
Bravery (Resist Magic)
Death Blow
Frighten/Challenge (War Cry)
Hardiness
10th Power Spells
Quest Spell Access
Improved Scroll Use/Magic Item Use (UAI)
Item Creation (Alchemy/Scribe Scrolls)
Classify Traps (Traps)
Evasion
Improvised Attack (Assassination)
Sense Danger (Avoid Death)
But even ignoring that, the remaining statements are simply not supported by facts. The basic rulebooks provide for level 20 as a minimum without stipulating any maximum; they also provide for numerous ways to surpass the so-called demihuman level caps - and the High Level Campaigns book provides for even more.
Just as in BG2/ToB/IWD, PnP high mages are quite powerful but they are not gods, nor do Fighters only 'whack'. As for whether IWD is a "high level campaign" or not, although there is certainly personal interpretation involved, the rulebook stipulates that any character above 10th level is considered high-level.
Of course that's anecdotal and proves nothing, except to say I don't believe the game was ever meant to be played to such high levels. I think it's balanced best from about third to the mid teens. It sort of gets silly after that. Of course sometimes silly is fun too, but I think it's wrong to call this intended or normal.
The balance of the core rules is such that after Nineth or Tenth level it is expected most characters will shift into more of an empire building sort of mode. The D&D Boxed Sets offered more high level guidance than AD&D ever did, and that was really a very different game.
More than disproves the "no HLA in 2nd Edition" nonsense.
As an excuse for hacking your characters to make them uber-powerful, it's pretty feeble.
Just admit you like to play the game with ridicoulously overpowered characters and move on.
Indeed, High Level Campaigns defines 10th level and above as high level, so yes that lvl15 for with inflated HP is still 15th and still high level acording to the rules.
Ignorance or more lies? It is hard to determine if you are making things up to deliberately obfuscate the issue or if you really do not know. Either way reflects poorly upon you.
We do enjoy playing with powerful characters, but if you had any reading comprehension you would know we are not the one doing it. We are merely pointing out how wrong and bad at trolling you are.
I strongly suggest you stay on topic, please. The OP has asked for your advice on what weapons should dual-wielders concentrate in IWDEE.
So, please, no further talking about whether modding is legitimate or not, whether or not high-level characters were considered in PnP, as well as other not-OP related stuff.
Don't think anyone objects to modding the game any way you like. The disagreement is that playing with HLAs added is somehow more "correct" than playing the game as released, and that they add anything to the game apart from setting the difficulty of HoF mode to "trivial". Certainly, if you included every obscure soucebook and dragon article ever published, you could include everything imaginable from freezing to death to space ships.
Your options for speed weapons are (in order that they can be acquired I think):
1. Fast Flail +2 (random)
2. Bastard Sword of Action +1 (random)
3. Valiant Scimitar +2
HoW:
4. Longsword of Action +4
5. Fast Flail +2
ToL:
6. Longsword of Action +4
My kensage was eventually relegated to the Bastard Sword of Action +1 as my Swashbuckler/Mage got both longswords of action, Kensei/druid gets Valiant (eventually) and PriestoL/Fighter and Kensei/Cleric get a Fast Flail each. Ymmv.
There is also a Ring of Reckless Action which grants +1 APR. Not sure if it stacks with a fast weapon.
For mainhand I can recommend Morningstar, Axe, Longsword, Mace ... Others mention Hammer but that proficiency has thus far been a complete disappointment for me.