While I would not mind at all if a Clara NPC was added to the game, I don't really think the addition is necessary to fix anything. It would be neat if another option in the story opened up, and fun to have a new NPC to bring along, but there's nothing wrong with Clara's conclusion as is. Sometimes bad things happen and you can't stop them. And, the good character has the option of whacking Hexxat. It doesn't seem like a story flaw to me, just a perhaps unsatisfying ending for those who want to save everyone (and it's hardly the only time in BG2 you have to watch someone die without being able to intervene).
I also wonder why a Clara kept alive would necessarily be able to access any of Hexxat's areas. She has no arrangement with Hex's employer and doesn't seem talent enough to be offered a job. I suppose through the power of imagination and good writing anything is possible though, and as I said before I'm not against any new NPCs Beamdog might decide to add to the game. Or against any new feature of any kind, really. New shiny ones are always a good thing!
Fox-folk ranger/bard multiclass, man. That's what this game needs.
Actually this game needs a group of animal/human hybrid adventurers that your party meets. Perhaps they assist, perhaps they assault, perhaps they just make silly references to the forums. It would be perfect. I mean, we've got a skunk, ferret, fox, raccoon, and probably more that are slipping my mind at the moment!
Well, okay, No to Clara being a joinable, but yes for her being saved.
As for new NPCs that might be added later. I'm for that too. If they back-port the kits from IWD:EE into BG(2)EE, then I would love to see a Cleric of Tyr joinable, or maybe another bard because I don't think I've ever heard of anyone liking, and using Garrick, or Eldoth. When it comes to BG2, I rarely use Haer'dalis, although I've always wanted to try that romance mod out, but Arath, Adrian, Kivan, or Xan get in the way of that one. :P
. . . there's nothing wrong with Clara's conclusion as is. Sometimes bad things happen and you can't stop them. And, the good character has the option of whacking Hexxat . . .
Sure, in the real world bad things happen to good people and you can't do anything about here. Here, in this fantasy world, ontological evil exists and good people smack evil. In the real world good people don't solve their problems with sharp knives and poison gas -- they just don't!
It doesn't seem like a story flaw to me, just a perhaps unsatisfying ending for those who want to save everyone (and it's hardly the only time in BG2 you have to watch someone die without being able to intervene).
In this story you lead an innocent to her death and have the option of flirting with the killer or of fighting the monster and getting nothing in return but a 'I guess I was duped' feeling. There is difference between watching irenicus kill while you work to stop him and standing idle while the person you hand delivered to the monster gets killed. You aren't trapped, you aren't receiving the information in a dream you are -- presumably -- taking time to get a manicure. And I do think that is a flaw.
You are right to say that this isn't the first 'protagonist is a dupe' story -- werewolf island and Mellisan come to mind -- but I didn't like those either.
I also wonder why a Clara kept alive would necessarily be able to access any of Hexxat's areas.
I wrote something up that I can't find right now. In rough outline my idea was: 1. The casque allows for two way communication and Clara knows all of Hexxat's secrets 2. Clara also knows that Hexxat was being manipulated by L and decides to put an end to Larloch's plans. 3. Some quest item allow Clara to pose as Hexxat.
Fox-folk ranger/bard multiclass, man. That's what this game needs.
Actually this game needs a group of animal/human hybrid adventurers that your party meets. Perhaps they assist, perhaps they assault, perhaps they just make silly references to the forums. It would be perfect. I mean, we've got a skunk, ferret, fox, raccoon, and probably more that are slipping my mind at the moment!
All good ideas -- and I think we're all good as long no one mentions an ooze NPC -- I mean that would be ridiculous, right?
Sure, in the real world bad things happen to good people and you can't do anything about here. Here, in this fantasy world, ontological evil exists and good people smack evil.
None of which allows you to prevent the deaths of Khalid, Dynaheir or Ajantis...
In this story you lead an innocent to her death and have the option of flirting with the killer or of fighting the monster and getting nothing in return but a 'I guess I was duped' feeling. There is difference between watching irenicus kill while you work to stop him and standing idle while the person you hand delivered to the monster gets killed. You aren't trapped, you aren't receiving the information in a dream you are -- presumably -- taking time to get a manicure. And I do think that is a flaw.
This is pretty much the same situation as when Xzar gets killed in BG2. Yout just stand there like an idiot while the harper agent kills him. Like it or not, there are times when you can't change what happens in the game. This happens all the time in the BG series, and most games out there. Just about any game that is at all story/plot driven will do this, by necessity. If a game were to allow the player to interrupt any action at will, it would become a sandbox game. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's not what BG is.
. . . there's nothing wrong with Clara's conclusion as is. Sometimes bad things happen and you can't stop them. And, the good character has the option of whacking Hexxat . . .
Sure, in the real world bad things happen to good people and you can't do anything about here. Here, in this fantasy world, ontological evil exists and good people smack evil. In the real world good people don't solve their problems with sharp knives and poison gas -- they just don't!
I wasn't really comparing the game to the real world, but was instead referring to the times in BG 2 when you see things happening and can't intervene, as well as the times when it is nearly impossible to prevent deaths without cheating or lots of reloading.
It doesn't seem like a story flaw to me, just a perhaps unsatisfying ending for those who want to save everyone (and it's hardly the only time in BG2 you have to watch someone die without being able to intervene).
In this story you lead an innocent to her death and have the option of flirting with the killer or of fighting the monster and getting nothing in return but a 'I guess I was duped' feeling. There is difference between watching irenicus kill while you work to stop him and standing idle while the person you hand delivered to the monster gets killed. You aren't trapped, you aren't receiving the information in a dream you are -- presumably -- taking time to get a manicure. And I do think that is a flaw.
You are right to say that this isn't the first 'protagonist is a dupe' story -- werewolf island and Mellisan come to mind -- but I didn't like those either.
I see your point, and I think high level mages or clerics might very well be expected to cast detect or dispel magic on someone who is acting like Clara or take her to one of the temples for aid. But, in a sense the player does have an option in this case. They don't have to escort a clearly unhinged woman to the graveyard. It goes against every computer game player instinct to NOT take a mission, true, but it is a viable option. I believe Clara will stay right there in the Coronet and never die if you don't escort her in the first place. Also, the dialog with Clara before and after entering the tomb is ominous and seems to indicate bad things to come. Again, it might go against instinct, but there are multiple points when a party of adventurers might decide to leave the tomb behind and not help Clara with her clearly mad quest.
I also wonder why a Clara kept alive would necessarily be able to access any of Hexxat's areas.
I wrote something up that I can't find right now. In rough outline my idea was: 1. The casque allows for two way communication and Clara knows all of Hexxat's secrets 2. Clara also knows that Hexxat was being manipulated by L and decides to put an end to Larloch's plans. 3. Some quest item allow Clara to pose as Hexxat.
Other people had their ideas.
That sounds like a clever idea and if Beamdog does add something along those lines I'll be one of the first to try it out. If not, I'd also love to see a modder take up the Clara banner and offer all sorts of new options.
No, it would become an RPG. The definition of sandbox is completely different.
Technically true, but you've missed the point: the difference between sandboxes and RPGs is that RPGs have scripted scenarios as a matter of course. You can't say "Meh, screw Sarevok" and hop on a boat to Chult, you can't save Dynaheir (because if you could, Minsc's character arc in BG2 would have to be written completely differently). RPGs allow you to make some choices within the overarching framework, but that doesn't mean you can break the script whenever you feel like it.
Clara is Hexxat's pawn. Upon fulfilling her function, she dies. End of story. Maybe you disagree with that, that's your right, but hey, I wish I could persuade Bodhi to team up with me against Irenicus. I wish I could take Edwin to meet Szass Tam, or let Suldanessellar burn, or bang Haer'Dalis. A lot of things could have turned out differently - and maybe if BG were a sandbox game, those things could happen. But it's a roleplaying game. (A moddable roleplaying game, at that.)
Sure, in the real world bad things happen to good people and you can't do anything about here. Here, in this fantasy world, ontological evil exists and good people smack evil.
None of which allows you to prevent the deaths of Khalid, Dynaheir or Ajantis...
I only learned about Ajantis through these forums. And, truthfully, the reason I didn't care about Khalid in and Dynaheir way back when BG2 was released is that I never had either in my party in BG1. If those scenes made up the bulk of the game I probably wouldn't have liked it very much. I'm ready to admit that there are parts about BG2 that I didn't like -- the question becomes: why did I never express dissatisfaction on the Bioware forums but do on the Beamdog forums? I think the answer boils down to content. I was willing to overlook what I didn't like because I had so many other options -- if I didn't like Cernd I had plenty of other NPCs / quest to choose from.
If the two games were two different parties --
Party 1 has a live band, that absolutely fascinating person you wanted to meet is here, the feeling in room is fantastic and zomg is that performance art? Is that good performance art. Sure the chips are stale and the cold drinks are warm -- but who cares about that? This party has everything else and it is fun.
Party 2 has some interesting paintings on the wall, someone has put some decent playlist set up. A handful of people are milling about but you are trapped in a conversation with that boring person from work you can't seem to get away from. And the cold drinks are warm and the chips are stale . . . Not much going on here. Hey! Could we get some better chips?
So, yes, I now just try to get out of the Hexxat story as soon as I can and I let Clara stand in the corner. But that means that %25 of the new content is gone. Add that I will never get to Dorn's content, 50% . In o.g., the flaws drown in a sea of new material. In the EE -- the flaws stand out on a flat plain.
Sure, in the real world bad things happen to good people and you can't do anything about here. Here, in this fantasy world, ontological evil exists and good people smack evil.
None of which allows you to prevent the deaths of Khalid, Dynaheir or Ajantis...
You're not present for the first two and the Ajantis situation is just sloppy story telling from the original.
On-topic: Like others have said, I don't really want or expect a new character or Clara NPC from this upcoming patch. I just want it to fix bugs and improve performance. If they did slip in a new NPC into it that wasn't somehow buggy, I wouldn't complain, but it's not currently on my radar.
True -- of these examples Xvar's tale is most like the Hexxat story. Of course Xvar wasn't an innocent I was trying to help -- the protagonist was under his thumb, he wouldn't tell me where to find Imoen unless I did his bidding. So enjoying a nice cuppa of tea while Xvar gets killed doesn't bother me much -- I knew I was getting into something shady. And you are rewarded with whole bunch 'o content. The reward for killing Hexxat? New areas are then restricted and the story ends on a sour note.
Perhaps I've been wrong to call this unsuccessful story hook a flaw -- it seems to work for a few -- but when I went through the romance lines like 'I've been drawn in' (from memory) it never matched the way I felt about the character. My feelings were more -- I hope we eventually get something to interesting . . . . . . maybe something interesting is coming . . .heh, that was a clever line . . . something is coming . . . time to restart.
So, I'd like to play those parts of the game -- and while we need a fox-skunk-rabbit party with human familiars more than we need anything else -- I would like to see these areas unlocked for those of us who were never hooked by the original story.
And @kcwise -- I really appreciate you engaging with my points. Thanks!
I only learned about Ajantis through these forums. And, truthfully, the reason I didn't care about Khalid in and Dynaheir way back when BG2 was released is that I never had either in my party in BG1.
Whether you care about them or not is irrelevant - they had fans, those fans wanted to save them as much as you want to save Clara. If the devs start down that path, they'll become even more useless than they already are.
If those scenes made up the bulk of the game I probably wouldn't have liked it very much.
The game is full of scripted scenarios you can't change or prevent. You can't catch the man who killed Anomen's sister, or persuade Lissa to leave Vaelag for Jan, or save Tiax and Yoshimo at Spellhold. In all the time the Clara discussion has been going on, I have never once heard a reason why she should be an exception to this principle.
So, yes, I now just try to get out of the Hexxat story as soon as I can and I let Clara stand in the corner. But that means that %25 of the new content is gone. Add that I will never get to Dorn's content, 50% . In o.g., the flaws drown in a sea of new material. In the EE -- the flaws stand out on a flat plain.
The fact that you arbitrarily choose to limit yourself is entirely your problem, though. There's no objective reason to summarily reject 50% of the new content.
I think the Hexxaat plot involves too much obvious railroading. Being able to save Clara would give players a much bigger sense of freedom.
As a party member Clara is a bit dull though, and would tend to be left out. I would be inclined to give players the option to duel class her to priest of Lathander, by buffing her wisdom to 17 as a result of her experience.
Whether you care about them or not is irrelevant - they had fans, those fans wanted to save them as much as you want to save Clara. If the devs start down that path, they'll become even more useless than they already are.
Right. I later learned that Khalid ends the game as the strongest NPC fighter -- long sword grand mastery + elven long sword bonus + source of strength + kiel's helmet means that Karoug goes down in few rounds. Same with long bow & Sarevok. My larger point is that these flaws -- or whatever you call them -- appear small in relation to the other content.
So, yes, I now just try to get out of the Hexxat story as soon as I can and I let Clara stand in the corner. But that means that %25 of the new content is gone. Add that I will never get to Dorn's content, 50% . In o.g., the flaws drown in a sea of new material. In the EE -- the flaws stand out on a flat plain.
The fact that you arbitrarily choose to limit yourself is entirely your problem, though. There's no objective reason to summarily reject 50% of the new content.
An important difference between your perspective and mine -- I think Bioware got it right in keeping its stories heroic. Faerun was always a heroic setting in which the good guys win. Greyhawk, on the other hand, was the setting for those who preferred shades of grey; Greenwood & Salvatore or Monte Cook. And I think most people play the heroic narrative most of the time -- take a look at the votes in 'do you side with Bodi threads'. Evil is an there as an option, or a chance to see the story from another perspective -- but not as 50 of the content. Dorn belongs in a Monte Cook setting and not in BG2; some of Beamdog's contributions aren't in keeping with the heroic narrative. I think Ossian studios did a fantastic job with Neera -- Hexxat and Dorn? Not so much. If I can't have a Clara NPC I wish I could uninstall Hexxat.
The way to answer this question -- are you correct in assuming that my dislike of Beamdog's evil characters is an anomaly -- would be to send a send a survey to everyone who bought the game. I think I'm only an anomaly only in sticking with this as long as I have -- I think most people who were unhappy with Hexxat gave up months ago.
I think the Hexxaat plot involves too much obvious railroading. Being able to save Clara would give players a much bigger sense of freedom.
As a party member Clara is a bit dull though, and would tend to be left out. I would be inclined to give players the option to duel class her to priest of Lathander, by buffing her wisdom to 17 as a result of her experience.
I really like that idea! Perhaps the sunsword could become an essential part of Clara's quest? Something tells me that the sword in the sun statue -- or whatever it is -- in the Lathander temple is connected to the story of the sunsword.
Right. I later learned that Khalid ends the game as the strongest NPC fighter -- long sword grand mastery + elven long sword bonus+ source of strength + kiel's helmet means that Karoug goes down in few rounds
Khalid is a half-elf (no long sword bonus) who never will get grand mastery.
Right. I later learned that Khalid ends the game as the strongest NPC fighter -- long sword grand mastery + elven long sword bonus+ source of strength + kiel's helmet means that Karoug goes down in few rounds
Khalid is a half-elf (no long sword bonus) who never will get grand mastery.
So, yes, I now just try to get out of the Hexxat story as soon as I can and I let Clara stand in the corner. But that means that %25 of the new content is gone. Add that I will never get to Dorn's content, 50% . In o.g., the flaws drown in a sea of new material. In the EE -- the flaws stand out on a flat plain.
The fact that you arbitrarily choose to limit yourself is entirely your problem, though. There's no objective reason to summarily reject 50% of the new content.
An important difference between your perspective and mine -- I think Bioware got it right in keeping its stories heroic. Faerun was always a heroic setting in which the good guys win. Greyhawk, on the other hand, was the setting for those who preferred shades of grey; Greenwood & Salvatore or Monte Cook. And I think most people play the heroic narrative most of the time -- take a look at the votes in 'do you side with Bodi threads'. Evil is an there as an option, or a chance to see the story from another perspective -- but not as 50 of the content. Dorn belongs in a Monte Cook setting and not in BG2; some of Beamdog's contributions aren't in keeping with the heroic narrative. I think Ossian studios did a fantastic job with Neera -- Hexxat and Dorn? Not so much. If I can't have a Clara NPC I wish I could uninstall Hexxat.
I'm not sure I really buy this. I can't speak about the Forgotton Realms setting as a whole, but Bioware obviously chose to include evil NPCs and evil plot options. The fact that people tend to pick the good ones doesn't mean that Bioware intended for people to play good. I think you're projecting based on your own personal preferences. Even if we assume that the majority of people play this way, that doesn't mean it's the 'right' way to play, or the way Bioware intended the game to be played. I'm not seeing an objective reason as to why Hexxat and Dorn don't belong.
The way to answer this question -- are you correct in assuming that my dislike of Beamdog's evil characters is an anomaly -- would be to send a send a survey to everyone who bought the game. I think I'm only an anomaly only in sticking with this as long as I have -- I think most people who were unhappy with Hexxat gave up months ago.
I don't think that the number of people unhappy with Hexxat is really the question at hand. The issue is that the criticisms of her, from yourself and others, seem to be based mostly on personal preference and choice. Even if there are lots of people out there who feel the same way, it doesn't change the fact that it's just subjective opinion. I mean, it's obviously Beamdog's choice if they feel the ought to make a new NPC to appease people dissatisfied with Hexxat. But they're not at fault if they choose not to.
It's like trying something new at a restaurant and not liking it. It's not that the cooks screwed up or anything, you just don't care for the dish. Sure, you might be dissatisfied, but it doesn't make sense to complain as it's not the restaurants fault. By all means, you can let your server know so that your feedback can be taken into account in the future, but don't expect a free meal. The restaurant can choose to try and make it up to you somehow, but they certainly aren't obligated to.
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I also wonder why a Clara kept alive would necessarily be able to access any of Hexxat's areas. She has no arrangement with Hex's employer and doesn't seem talent enough to be offered a job. I suppose through the power of imagination and good writing anything is possible though, and as I said before I'm not against any new NPCs Beamdog might decide to add to the game. Or against any new feature of any kind, really. New shiny ones are always a good thing!
Actually this game needs a group of animal/human hybrid adventurers that your party meets. Perhaps they assist, perhaps they assault, perhaps they just make silly references to the forums. It would be perfect. I mean, we've got a skunk, ferret, fox, raccoon, and probably more that are slipping my mind at the moment!
As for new NPCs that might be added later. I'm for that too. If they back-port the kits from IWD:EE into BG(2)EE, then I would love to see a Cleric of Tyr joinable, or maybe another bard because I don't think I've ever heard of anyone liking, and using Garrick, or Eldoth. When it comes to BG2, I rarely use Haer'dalis, although I've always wanted to try that romance mod out, but Arath, Adrian, Kivan, or Xan get in the way of that one. :P
You are right to say that this isn't the first 'protagonist is a dupe' story -- werewolf island and Mellisan come to mind -- but I didn't like those either. I wrote something up that I can't find right now. In rough outline my idea was: 1. The casque allows for two way communication and Clara knows all of Hexxat's secrets 2. Clara also knows that Hexxat was being manipulated by L and decides to put an end to Larloch's plans. 3. Some quest item allow Clara to pose as Hexxat.
Other people had their ideas.
Clara is Hexxat's pawn. Upon fulfilling her function, she dies. End of story. Maybe you disagree with that, that's your right, but hey, I wish I could persuade Bodhi to team up with me against Irenicus. I wish I could take Edwin to meet Szass Tam, or let Suldanessellar burn, or bang Haer'Dalis. A lot of things could have turned out differently - and maybe if BG were a sandbox game, those things could happen. But it's a roleplaying game. (A moddable roleplaying game, at that.)
If the two games were two different parties --
Party 1 has a live band, that absolutely fascinating person you wanted to meet is here, the feeling in room is fantastic and zomg is that performance art? Is that good performance art. Sure the chips are stale and the cold drinks are warm -- but who cares about that? This party has everything else and it is fun.
Party 2 has some interesting paintings on the wall, someone has put some decent playlist set up. A handful of people are milling about but you are trapped in a conversation with that boring person from work you can't seem to get away from. And the cold drinks are warm and the chips are stale . . . Not much going on here. Hey! Could we get some better chips?
So, yes, I now just try to get out of the Hexxat story as soon as I can and I let Clara stand in the corner. But that means that %25 of the new content is gone. Add that I will never get to Dorn's content, 50% . In o.g., the flaws drown in a sea of new material. In the EE -- the flaws stand out on a flat plain.
*insert bad fanfiction concept here*
On-topic: Like others have said, I don't really want or expect a new character or Clara NPC from this upcoming patch. I just want it to fix bugs and improve performance. If they did slip in a new NPC into it that wasn't somehow buggy, I wouldn't complain, but it's not currently on my radar.
For future patches though, anything's possible.
True -- of these examples Xvar's tale is most like the Hexxat story. Of course Xvar wasn't an innocent I was trying to help -- the protagonist was under his thumb, he wouldn't tell me where to find Imoen unless I did his bidding. So enjoying a nice cuppa of tea while Xvar gets killed doesn't bother me much -- I knew I was getting into something shady. And you are rewarded with whole bunch 'o content. The reward for killing Hexxat? New areas are then restricted and the story ends on a sour note.
Perhaps I've been wrong to call this unsuccessful story hook a flaw -- it seems to work for a few -- but when I went through the romance lines like 'I've been drawn in' (from memory) it never matched the way I felt about the character. My feelings were more -- I hope we eventually get something to interesting . . . . . . maybe something interesting is coming . . .heh, that was a clever line . . . something is coming . . . time to restart.
So, I'd like to play those parts of the game -- and while we need a fox-skunk-rabbit party with human familiars more than we need anything else -- I would like to see these areas unlocked for those of us who were never hooked by the original story.
And @kcwise -- I really appreciate you engaging with my points. Thanks!
As a party member Clara is a bit dull though, and would tend to be left out. I would be inclined to give players the option to duel class her to priest of Lathander, by buffing her wisdom to 17 as a result of her experience.
An important difference between your perspective and mine -- I think Bioware got it right in keeping its stories heroic. Faerun was always a heroic setting in which the good guys win. Greyhawk, on the other hand, was the setting for those who preferred shades of grey; Greenwood & Salvatore or Monte Cook. And I think most people play the heroic narrative most of the time -- take a look at the votes in 'do you side with Bodi threads'. Evil is an there as an option, or a chance to see the story from another perspective -- but not as 50 of the content. Dorn belongs in a Monte Cook setting and not in BG2; some of Beamdog's contributions aren't in keeping with the heroic narrative. I think Ossian studios did a fantastic job with Neera -- Hexxat and Dorn? Not so much. If I can't have a Clara NPC I wish I could uninstall Hexxat.
The way to answer this question -- are you correct in assuming that my dislike of Beamdog's evil characters is an anomaly -- would be to send a send a survey to everyone who bought the game. I think I'm only an anomaly only in sticking with this as long as I have -- I think most people who were unhappy with Hexxat gave up months ago.
It's like trying something new at a restaurant and not liking it. It's not that the cooks screwed up or anything, you just don't care for the dish. Sure, you might be dissatisfied, but it doesn't make sense to complain as it's not the restaurants fault. By all means, you can let your server know so that your feedback can be taken into account in the future, but don't expect a free meal. The restaurant can choose to try and make it up to you somehow, but they certainly aren't obligated to.