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wizard slayer - do i have this right?

So now the wizard slayer has miscast magic using ranged. So if I have this right, she has 10‰ per melee hit to dispel magic, and a chance per ranged hit to give a caster an 80% chance of spell failure? If so, that doesn't sound bad at all.

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Comments

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Siona said:

    So now the wizard slayer has miscast magic using ranged. So if I have this right, she has 10‰ per melee hit to dispel magic, and a chance per ranged hit to give a caster an 80% chance of spell failure? If so, that doesn't sound bad at all.

    Then dual at 9 or 13 to thief and overcome their kit restrictions and you're golden ...

    CrevsDaakSiona
  • SionaSiona Member Posts: 79
    Yeah. I'm thinking if I understand it correctly then wizard slayer is now pretty viable.

    JuliusBorisov
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,708
    edited December 2014
    Siona said:

    So now the wizard slayer has miscast magic using ranged. So if I have this right, she has 10‰ per melee hit to dispel magic, and a chance per ranged hit to give a caster an 80% chance of spell failure? If so, that doesn't sound bad at all.

    I've looked at it in Near Infinity. From what I can tell it looks like its actually a 25% spell failure per melee/ranged hit in BG2EE.

    BlackravenCrevsDaakvladpensemiticgod
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 15,539
    elminster said:

    Siona said:

    So now the wizard slayer has miscast magic using ranged. So if I have this right, she has 10‰ per melee hit to dispel magic, and a chance per ranged hit to give a caster an 80% chance of spell failure? If so, that doesn't sound bad at all.

    I've looked at it in Near Infinity. From what I can tell it looks like its actually a 25% spell failure per melee/ranged hit in BG2EE.
    It shows some old bugs are still there: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/19691/wizard-slayer-miscast-magic-ability

  • SionaSiona Member Posts: 79
    Interesting. So, would a wizard slayer using bala's Axe have the. % chance stack?

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,708
  • SionaSiona Member Posts: 79
    Well. Then I'll just have to play one and find out :)

    jackjackJuliusBorisov
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    Ranged or not, the core issue about the Wizard Slayer is an inherent design conundrum: you need to actually HIT a mage to affect them with spell failure - but if your fighter is already hitting the mage (i.e. getting through the protective spells) then the mage is about to die anyway. The problem about mages in BG2 is that they're so stuffed with protection effects that you DON'T get to hit them, not unless you do some serious work to get ride of the protections. And once you do, they usually have very little HP and die fairly quickly, so there's little need to interrupt them further.

    This of course is compounded by mods such as SCS, which add a lot of scripted spellcasting that cannot in fact be interrupted by the WS spell failure.

    SionavladpenFenghoang
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 1,581

    Ranged or not, the core issue about the Wizard Slayer is an inherent design conundrum: you need to actually HIT a mage to affect them with spell failure - but if your fighter is already hitting the mage (i.e. getting through the protective spells) then the mage is about to die anyway. The problem about mages in BG2 is that they're so stuffed with protection effects that you DON'T get to hit them, not unless you do some serious work to get ride of the protections. And once you do, they usually have very little HP and die fairly quickly, so there's little need to interrupt them further.

    This of course is compounded by mods such as SCS, which add a lot of scripted spellcasting that cannot in fact be interrupted by the WS spell failure.

    Doesn't the wizard slayer effect still happen even if they have Stoneskin or Mirror Image on? I know it doesn't when they have Protection from Magical Weapons, but otherwise it should work.

    JuliusBorisovsemiticgod
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 15,539

    Ranged or not, the core issue about the Wizard Slayer is an inherent design conundrum: you need to actually HIT a mage to affect them with spell failure - but if your fighter is already hitting the mage (i.e. getting through the protective spells) then the mage is about to die anyway. The problem about mages in BG2 is that they're so stuffed with protection effects that you DON'T get to hit them, not unless you do some serious work to get ride of the protections. And once you do, they usually have very little HP and die fairly quickly, so there's little need to interrupt them further.

    This of course is compounded by mods such as SCS, which add a lot of scripted spellcasting that cannot in fact be interrupted by the WS spell failure.

    Doesn't the wizard slayer effect still happen even if they have Stoneskin or Mirror Image on? I know it doesn't when they have Protection from Magical Weapons, but otherwise it should work.
    @OlvynChuru‌ is right.

    We should listen to what @Blackraven‌ can tell us about the WS in general and maybe in terms of the questions raised in this thread. After all, our raven has managed to solo with the WS in the SCS-modded game without reloads as far as the ToB.

  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,059
    I think most questions have been answered, so I can add the following.

    First of all, I'd be surprised if the the spellfailure penalty were indeed 25% rather than 10%. I'm quoting myself here:


    The biggest challenge of the Planar Sphere was Tolgerias. GWW'd Thani started off nicely, getting four hits in with her Tuigan Bow and Acid Arrows, two before and two after the dialog triggered.


    image

    Nevertheless, as soon as he had auto-buffed, Tolgerias seemingly managed to cast all the spells he wanted. This mainly meant lots of summons: two Cornugons, an Efreeti, a Mordy Sword, and two Mislead or Project Image versions of himself. Before those summons would make things difficult for Thani, she managed to slay Tolgerias' assistant, who was closer to the door.

    image

    With a 25% penalty, four hits with the Tuigan Bow should have completely shut down Tolgerias' spellcasting, at least for a couple of rounds, but he managed to cast whatever he wanted without a single failure, which suggests that either a 10% spellfailure is inflicted or that maybe certain (SCS?) enemies are immune to the penalty.

    I have no idea how efffective a Wizard Slayer using Bala's Axe is as my WS were solo characters; they didn't do Durlag's Tower. The problem is that the weapon's spellfailure penalty can be saved against at -2 penalty to saves vs spells as @benhoshi correctly pointed out, and that Mages (obviously the class one wants to use that weapon against) get really good saves vs spell. However, with Doom and Greater Malison there are ways to impose significant penalties on enemy mages' saves.

    The WS is a difficult solo character, but doable even on no-reload, at least BG1 and SoA (can't say much about ToB because I got disinterested and failed there). You'd have to be willing to play very carefully, plan quest order etc a lot, and rely on a bit of luck. I think in a small party of say three, they can be lots of fun. You still level up pretty fast so that you can enjoy the excellent MR the higher levels offer during a reasonable portion of the game. Keldorn the dispelling Inquisitor, and Aerie (or maybe Jaheira or Cernd if you don't want any arcane magic) could be good companions for such a run.

    JuliusBorisovShikao
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084

    With a 25% penalty, four hits with the Tuigan Bow should have completely shut down Tolgerias' spellcasting, at least for a couple of rounds, but he managed to cast whatever he wanted without a single failure, which suggests that either a 10% spellfailure is inflicted or that maybe certain (SCS?) enemies are immune to the penalty.

    That's what I meant earlier, spells that are scripted in with SCS are often not affected by interruption effects. Not all spells work like that in SCS, but a lot do, especially on boss-type enemies.

    Doesn't the wizard slayer effect still happen even if they have Stoneskin or Mirror Image on? I know it doesn't when they have Protection from Magical Weapons, but otherwise it should work.

    Yes, it works on anything that has hits connecting, even if they do no damage. So it will apply on SS/MI, but it will not apply on PfWM or other forms of weapon immunity, or if you fail the hit roll. Since PfMW and similar effects are the most effective protections, they are the most relevant problem - and they stop WS interrupts cold. SS isn't actually a big deal, as any hit with an elemental-damage weapon will pierce it also and interrupt spells via the elemental damage hit.

    Blackraven
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,072

    (can't say much about ToB because I got disinterested and failed there).

    I've played solo'd ToB with a Barbarian, a Dwarven Defender and a Wizard Slayer, and it was the hardest of all three (Barbarian was too easy, as always, and Dwarven Defenders are impossible to take down in melee), but it was doable (I did reload through, but I only got killed by the Fire Giants when injured and wanted to rest and when I got eaten by Devil Shades in the Saradush Sewers).

    This of course is compounded by mods such as SCS, which add a lot of scripted spellcasting that cannot in fact be interrupted by the WS spell failure.

    If SCS mages have 50% chances of failing a spell or more, they don't even start casting.

    JuliusBorisovelminsterBlackravensemiticgod
  • SionaSiona Member Posts: 79
    I wrote I another thread, but it bears mention here. Using balas Axe with a dwarven defender last night, I never once got miscast magic to take effect. Instead, it was lowering magic resistance.

    CrevsDaak
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,708
    edited December 2014
    Siona said:

    I wrote I another thread, but it bears mention here. Using balas Axe with a dwarven defender last night, I never once got miscast magic to take effect. Instead, it was lowering magic resistance.

    Looks like it is a string issue. It is actually giving enemies 80% magic failure but the string is set to showing "magic resistance lowered."

    I've filed a report about it

    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/37915/balas-axe-should-not-say-it-is-lowering-magic-resistance-when-you-hit-an-enemy-with-it#latest

    SionaWanderonCrevsDaaksemiticgod


  • Regarding PfMW with SCS as impediment to WS

    If you are a dart throwing WS and have a handful of non magical darts on reserve (and you should have a LOT), the PfMW wont stop you from adding the miscast magic effect. It seems very cool to me to have a grandmaster in darts with 19 dex hurling away at a stoneskinned, mirror imaged, PfMW SCS mage -- you stop it from casting while your rapidly thrown darts work through images and stoneskins, and then the mage is wacking at minsc with a staff while boo laughs. Perhaps not the best way to dispose of a mage but what can I say: CHARNAME was trained by Gorion to hate wizards (other than him). : )

    BlackravenJuliusBorisovsemiticgodQwizard
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    edited December 2014
    @SweetMagooMagoodle‌ That tactic is definitely possible, in some cases; unfortunately, the majority of actually dangerous mages tend to be naturally immune to non-magical weapons (Liches etc.). Doesn't have to be darts either, you can just use whatever non-magical weapon you have the proficiency points for.

    Another strategy that is quite powerful even on non-WS is to use the Firetooth crossbow loaded with non-magical bolts - it will hit through PfMW and then deliver bonus fire damage through SS, potentially interrupting spells that are being cast. That, too, unfortunately does not work against enemies also immune to normal weapons.

    JuliusBorisovelminster
  • @Lord_Tansheron I didn't think of that. SCS definitely makes things harder. I remember being surprised (both in a good and not so good way) when Keldorn couldn't dispel much in my last run.

  • ithildurnewithildurnew Member Posts: 81
    edited February 2016

    @Lord_Tansheron I didn't think of that. SCS definitely makes things harder. I remember being surprised (both in a good and not so good way) when Keldorn couldn't dispel much in my last run.

    That's an optional component of SCS, not SCS core, doing that.

    Keep in mind SCS high lvl mages use triggers, sequencers, and contingencies, aside from the prebuff option, which do not follow normal casting rules as far as spell failure, interruption, etc.

    JuliusBorisovsemiticgodjackjack
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,496
    edited March 2016
    I saw a mention of the 25% penalty on another thread and did a search to see if it had been discussed as the change seemed very odd to me. I've solo no-reloaded a WS in BGT and the 10% spell failure always seemed quite sufficient to me. If you're using ranged weapons your APR in BG2 is probably 4 or more, so a caster is likely to be pretty much shut down from normal casting in 2-3 rounds anyway - why change it so you can do that in a single round?

    The difficulties with mages are not really associated with whether 10% or a higher figure is used, but what they can still do and the possible difficulty of hitting them at all (as pointed out earlier in the thread). Shutting down normal casting doesn't stop special abilities, sequencers, wands etc from targetting you (and only applies to arcane of course anyway), so the change to 25% seems both insufficient if the intention was to make a WS easier to play, while also being overpowered in its limited field of application.

    I'll see if I can find the log of changes to check if anything else has been done. What has always seemed odd to me is the inconsistent treatment of armour - boots are allowed, but not bracers for instance. If the intention was to ease the restrictions then allowing, e.g. bracers, belt, even a cloak would go a long way without fundamentally changing the nature of the class.

    semiticgod
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,893
    I'm delighted they bumped up the penalty to 25%. In my last no-reload run, it let me shut down liches in a single round using Fire Seeds and Vhailor's Helm.

    Grond0
  • 00zim0000zim00 Member Posts: 265
    edited March 2016
    Long Thread so sorry if its been mentioned. But this brought to mind the Wizard Slayer mod that was made by a member of the Beamdog team that re-balanced the Wizard Slayer class. @AlexT

    Its fantastic so if anyone wants to play a decent Wizard Slayer worth a download. That being said I assume once the 2.0 patch comes out the mod will stop working so maybe AlexT would be kind enough to update it ;)


    Wizard Slayer Rebalancing for BG:EE and BGII:EE:
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/24181/wizard-slayer-rebalancing-for-bg-ee-and-bgii-ee


    If memory servers Beamdog are not allowed to alter any existing class only fix bugs or something to that effect so that's why there were never able to officaly change it.
    AlexT said:


    Disclaimer

    Although I am a Beamdog/Overhaul developer this mod is completely unrelated to my work there. Please do not mistake this for an officially supported product. I have made this mod in my own free time and Beamdog/Overhaul does not support it. .

  • vladpenvladpen Member Posts: 88
    The release notes for version 2.0 say: "The Wizard Slayer kit has always caused 25% spell failure on successful attacks, but this was mistakenly documented as 10%. The error has been corrected in the kit description."

    JuliusBorisovGoturalBlackravensemiticgod
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 417
    edited April 2016
    I think its a bad designed, implemented class pair with beastmaster.
    There is a version, what i think better or wizard slayer, or just funnier, this class immune to magic by born, not only harm but friendly magic too. And not just have 100% mr but no magic is used on it. And it cam only use non magical armor etc, and non magical weapons, but he get enchantment bonus to the weapon he use, may by use an ability to switch enchantment bonus. It only can use healingpotions and antidote.
    Its boring for some ppl, but i think it would be great, or it can use magic weapons for some fun.
    And may it can get some fighting ability, offensive stance etc.

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,199
    Miscast magic was always a 25% failure chance per stack, the same way Specialist Mages always imposed a -2 modifier on saving throw against spells from their own schools (while having a +2 bonus themselves).

    This is not new, this was implemented since 2000. But Baldur's Gate is such a beautiful game that some things remain undiscovered for 15 years.

    semiticgodjackjackJuliusBorisov
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    Gotural said:

    This is not new, this was implemented since 2000. But Baldur's Gate is such a beautiful game that some things remain undiscovered for 15 years.

    You mean undocumented ¬_¬ People discovered it fairly quickly.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,893

    Gotural said:

    This is not new, this was implemented since 2000. But Baldur's Gate is such a beautiful game that some things remain undiscovered for 15 years.

    You mean undocumented ¬_¬ People discovered it fairly quickly.
    When? How?

    @Gotural and I were puzzled for ages by the question of critical failures on saving throws, and it was only after EE came out that we discovered that our differing experiences and tests were due to mage specialization penalties. I've read FAQs and walkthroughs and forum posts from years ago and none of them ever said anything about specialization save bonuses. In fact, few people even knew about the specialization-based scroll scribing chance either until EE, and that was why people thought that BG's scroll scribing was bugged. I don't even know how many posts I've seen complaining about failing three times in a row to scribe a scroll with 19+ INT. People have debated which school specialization was the best since the game came out. But for years, that debate was based entirely on opposition schools, not on save penalties or scribing chances.

    Who knew about the save penalties? How did they figure it out? And why didn't they mention such an important detail, which could have answered questions people had been puzzling over for years?

    GoturaljackjackJuliusBorisovBelgarathMTH
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