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Class/Kit Attempt: Warlock

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Comments

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited July 2016
    ineth said:

    WeiDU does installs in a cleaner manner and with less problems than BWS.

    This comparison doesn't make sense to me.
    BWS and Weidu aren't two competing solutions for the same problem.
    In fact, BWS uses Weidu for the actual installation step.

    The raison d'être of BWS is that it solves two pre-installation problems (which WeiDU doesn't concern itself with), by providing:
    1) Automated download of mods.
    2) Automated conflict/dependency resolution of mods.
    BWS causes more issues than it solves. It's a buggy pile of mess. Just because it uses WeiDU doesn't mean it's not a mess. In trying to "improve" on a WeiDU install, it actually makes it worse. Never mind that it's a HUGE burden on modders. Oh, and it's actually quite awful at step #2.
    UnknowLOL said:

    @rapsam2003

    BWS is awful. It's a bad hack at making things UI friendly. WeiDU does installs in a cleaner manner and with less problems than BWS. BWS is such a hack-y tool.
    I'm not at all familiar with the tool as I've said (tried it for the first time), could you elaborate what's wrong with it pls? I may reconsider using it.

    I pretty much said what's wrong with it. WeiDU is cleaner. UI doesn't mean a thing if the tool is inferior.

  • UnknowLOLUnknowLOL Member Posts: 30
    Well BWS + Warlock on top of it works fine for now, not sure when the bugyness and hackyness will show itself though. Figured I will just let the guys know of all the bugs I find (if any) like I usually do, since they (like any other mod makers) probably put some crazy hours into developing that tool and shared it with us. And in the end it won't help anyone if all we do is bashing (or praising) someone's work without providing any substantial feedback.

    @kjeron
    On topic, since warlock is now a shaman kit, what do you think about making use of that "spirit dance" button? Maybe turn it into some sort of gating ability to summon demons or something? I'm not sure if it is possible technically, but from the gameplay and lore perspective it would make sense - warlocks already have unlimited casts and deal with demons, it will end up pretty balanced and fun. Yeah it is not in the 3.5e rulebook, but well we have adaptation for 2e here so =)

    mf2112
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited July 2016
    UnknowLOL said:

    On topic, since warlock is now a shaman kit, what do you think about making use of that "spirit dance" button?

    Warlocks typically don't summon demons/devils without complicated rituals, more complicated than what can be done in combat. A pact with a devil or demons is not the same as having the power to call them up at will, never mind that it requires a lot of arcane power (more than can be conjured under pressure of combat) to open a portal to the Abyss or the Hells. Here's what the button does now:
    Detect magic ability run through Shaman Dance Modal.(placeholder)


  • UnknowLOLUnknowLOL Member Posts: 30
    edited July 2016
    @rapsam2003
    I thought as much, I said it's not in rulebook or anything. They do become demonic creatures themselves at high enough level iirc, so you could imagine them having some kind of gating ability. Don't allow them to summon higher demons and devils of course, something lesser will be ok (mephits, quasits, imps), similar to shaman, who doesn't summon anything crazy just numerous. I didn't know the button is now used for Detect Magic, I thought it wasn't doing anything, thanks for the info.

    Post edited by UnknowLOL on
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    UnknowLOL said:

    They do become demonic creatures themselves at high enough level iirc, so you could imagine them having some kind of gating ability.

    Well, not really. They gain demonic/devilish or Fey or Farsider traits at high levels. (There is a distinction between the demon & devil in D&D, btw.) But we're basically talking epic levels.
    UnknowLOL said:

    Don't allow them to summon higher demons and devils of course, something lesser will be ok (mephits, quasits, imps), similar to shaman, who doesn't summon anything crazy just numerous.

    Even that takes quite a bit. And in 3E (which is where warlocks first showed up in D&D), warlocks didn't have familiars; they just gained powers from their patron. Summoning 1 or 2 lesser creatures, that may be reasonable.
    UnknowLOL said:

    I didn't know the button is now used for Detect Magic, I thought it wasn't doing anything, thanks for the info.

    Mhmm.

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,177
    @UnknowLOL @rapsam2003
    While I do like the idea of demon/devil summoning, it would be far better to pursue it as a separate kit.

    Give them the ability to summon and bind an outsider to their will through the Dance Modal, but only one creature at a time. If they stop "dancing", or attack it, it would turn hostile instead of being unsummoned, until they re-enabled the Dance Modal, with a chance at success to retake control. Higher levels would allow summoning stronger outsiders.

    Perhaps two different kits:
    - A cleric-like that summons demons or devils based on alignment, and receives the Prot.Evil line of spells as bonus spells.
    - A druid-like that summons elementals, and receives Protection from fire/cold/electricity/acid line of spells as bonus spells.

    Would probably need some kind of disadvantage to balance it out though.

    Grammarsalad
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited July 2016
    kjeron said:

    Perhaps two different kits:
    - A cleric-like that summons demons or devils based on alignment, and receives the Prot.Evil line of spells as bonus spells.

    I mean, that's fine. Just be aware no lore supports this idea as a major feature of clerics. There is the spell Planar Binding (lesser & normal), but that's a Sorc/Wiz spell. That said, do what you want to do. :)

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,177
    kjeron said:

    Perhaps two different kits:
    - A cleric-like that summons demons or devils based on alignment, and receives the Prot.Evil line of spells as bonus spells.

    I mean, that's fine. Just be aware no lore supports this idea as a major feature of clerics. There is the spell Planar Binding (lesser & normal), but that's a Sorc/Wiz spell. That said, do what you want to do. :)

    Yeah, forgot the obvious,
    Cleric - Undead, likely evil only
    Druid - Elementals
    Arcane - Devil/Demon

    Just ideas though, I don't intend to make those kits, at least not any time soon.

    rapsam2003
  • UnknowLOLUnknowLOL Member Posts: 30
    edited July 2016
    Just hit level 14 and for some reason I can learn (only) Demonic Toughness as my second Greater Invocation. I'm not sure at which level I should be given the option to take second Greater Invocation, but I assume something is not right because all the other invocations of this tier only give "nevermind" dialog.

    BGIIEE with the latest patch

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,177
    UnknowLOL said:

    Just hit level 14 and for some reason I can learn (only) Demonic Toughness as my second Greater Invocation. I'm not sure at which level I should be given the option to take second Greater Invocation, but I assume something is not right because all the other invocations of this tier only give "nevermind" dialog.

    BGIIEE with the latest patch

    Wow, that's an interesting typo, and Demonic Toughness somehow slipped through and avoided it.
    Anyway, Greater Invocations should be granted at levels 11, 13, and 15.
    Judging from what I see in the dialogue, it should correct itself once you reach level 15, allowing you to choose both your remaining Greater Invocations, from any of them.
    If you wouldn't mind, could you console yourself to the next level and confirm if that fixes it, or if there's still something else going wrong? Either way I have updated the first post with a fix for the typo.

  • UnknowLOLUnknowLOL Member Posts: 30
    edited July 2016
    Yes, at level 15 it does let me take two Greater Invocations. Thanks for the fix.

    Edit:

    On balance - disabling invocations should have (or gain) save penalty, right now they almost never seem to carry their primary function. Even Dark tier cc invocations have no save penalty whatsoever, which makes them useless in more or less non-trivial encounters at the levels you are able to take them. 99% of time you are better of throwing a Blast of any shape with any disabling essence, and once you take Blast Focusing it becomes a no-brainer.
    My suggestion - progressively increasing save penalties tied to Warlock's level or a HLA similar to Blast Focusing, but for invocations. High tier or / and single target cc invocations should have some save penalty right from the start (like Stony Grasp).

    To be precise, the cc invocations I'm talking about: Earthen Grasp, Charm, Weighty Utterance, Chilling Tentacles, Painful Slumber (very underpowered atm), Enervating Shadow, Devil's Whispers (I can't see any use for this spell either way tbh), Word of Changing, Perilous Veil.
    Basically anything that tests saves should do so with a penalty at higher levels, or it becomes obsolete fast. Which is a big deal for the class whose main weakness is the absence of versatility.

    Post edited by UnknowLOL on
  • UnknowLOLUnknowLOL Member Posts: 30
    edited July 2016
    Emergency double post: Dark Foresight crashes the game. Tested on several warlocks including the newly created and consoled one just for testing purposes.
    This may or may not be the result of some conflict on my side, I have many mods.
    Tested on a clean install withoutany other mods - still crashes. Happens immediately after cast, when the contingency menu is supposed to appear.

    Post edited by UnknowLOL on
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,177
    edited July 2016
    Re: Invocation Saving throws
    This is something 3E had built into spell-casting with its DC's, so they were rarely a part of the actual spell. Definitely something I can look into implementing.
    UnknowLOL said:

    Emergency double post: Dark Foresight crashes the game. Tested on several warlocks including the newly created and consoled one just for testing purposes.
    This may or may not be the result of some conflict on my side, I have many mods.

    No, its a 2.0 thing. I haven't decided on how to deal with it yet, since the work-around I found doesn't seem to work for everyone, and requires modding files Weidu is not currently able to extract.
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/60067/contingencies-and-sequencers-post-v2-0-how-or-why#latest
    I can either disable the contingency part for now, or piggyback on the Chain Contingency Resource(it shouldn't interfere with others using the spell, but the new UI finds new ways to screw up sequencers with every patch).

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,177
    @UnknowLOL
    New build attempts to piggyback on Chain Contingency. If this doesn't work on your install I will disable the custom contingency part until I can find a better way.

  • UnknowLOLUnknowLOL Member Posts: 30
    edited July 2016
    I would say disable the problematic part of the spell for now and wait for official fix. Dark Foresight would still be useful (it would be even for the saving throws alone).

    Edit:
    Eh that was written proir to your second post. I'm testing your new build right now.

    Edit:
    It works now, thank you again.

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,177
    Quick Saving Throw Ideas:

    Earthen/Stony Grasp/Chilling Tentacles: These are supposed to be grapple checks, so I was thinking to base their saving throw off Strength scores, remove the restriction against large creatures, but change it from a Paralyze effect to an Entangle effect, or maybe Entangle+Slow.

    Chilling Tentacles:
    - Proposed: -1 Save Penalty against a creature with 24+ Strength, -1 per 2 Strength, down to -8 Save Penalty against a 10 Strength creature, and no save against those with less than 10 Strength.

    Earthen/Stony Grasp:
    - Proposed: Scrap the creatures and turn them into single target spells based on the targets strength as Chilling Tentacles above, having it repeat itself for 2 rounds(Earthen), and 1 round / level until they succeed the saving throw(Stony).

    Charm currently mimics the +3 saving throw bonus as the same wizard spell
    - Proposed: Remove the +3 bonus completely, or scale it down to 0 by level 5(to match Dire Charm).

    Weighty Utterance - This spell was designed with IWD in mind, where a lot of spells do not work against large creatures, still:
    - Proposed: Alter it to a Save for Half, instead of Negate, for Medium/Small creatures.

    Perilous Veil:
    - Proposed: The same flat -4 penalty as Chaos, as that appears to be its closest approximation.

    Enervating Shadows: Currently sets Strength to '1'.
    - Proposed: Cumulative -4 Strength to a minimum of 3 for 5 Rounds, -2 Save Penalty to start, -1 Save Penalty at levels 13, 15, 17, & 19.

    Devil's Whisper: This was meant for fun, to control friendly creatures without having to kill them afterwards because they become hostile. I could probably remove the Saving Throw entirely and hope anyone you shouldn't be taking advantage of for plot reasons either has 100% MR or Charm Immunity.

    Word of Changing: Not sure this should be changed, I view it similar to Flesh to Stone or Disintegrate, neither of which have Save penalties.

    Slumber: Out of ideas atm.

  • UnknowLOLUnknowLOL Member Posts: 30
    edited July 2016
    Well I like all the proposed changes.

    The improvised strength tests on Grasps and Tentacles look very cool. Entangle + slow makes sense, given the fluff of those spells.

    Charm with scaling would probably be better balanced, considering IWD and BGI where you start at level 1.

    Weighty Utterance: sounds good, Save for Half means it is not a complete waste for smaller enemies, and it is good as a dedicated anti-large cc.

    Perilous Veil and Enervating Shadows look good.

    Devil's Whisper: if it can't be used to gain any real advantage then removing any chance to save makes most sense. Still I think there should be a way to make it useful in a gaming sort of way. Maybe give a permanent bonus to charisma when it is taken (to simulate "friendly" mind control or something)?

    About Word of Changing: Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate aren't really used that much for this exact reason. From the second half of BGII and to the end of ToB pretty much everything's going to pass basic saving throws. While Wizard or even Sorcerer can let some of his spells gather dust in the spellbook, Warlock certainly can't. Now given that it is kind of insta-gib spell, a -1 penalty at level 17 and -2 at 20 would sound about right.

    Painful Slumber: just slap a scaling penalty to the saving throw and be done with it =) It doesn't have to be awesome, just useful.
    Alternatively, you might consider making it a small AoE.

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,177
    Update:
    - Grasp's and Tentacles grapple target with save based on strength difference. Damage is now 1d6 + strength values read from STRMOD.2da at install.
    - Grapplingd Entangles (0 movement) and Slows the target.
    - Grasp's treated as having 14 Strength, +2 per 3 caster levels, max 24.
    - Earthen attempts grapple each round for 2 rounds, Stony for 1 round per level, up to 10.
    - Tentacles treated as Large creature having 19 Strength, +4 grappling bonus vs. Medium/Small creatures.

    - Devil's Whisper now has no save, have fun playing devil's advocate with NPC's.

    - Painful Slumber now has same AoE as Greater Command, no change in effect or save though.

    - Word of Changing: Tried something different here, it now functions as a "Power Word, Polymorph". It affects 60 hit points of creatures, centered on the targeted creature.
    - Save vs. Polymorph: Polymorphed into squirrel permanently(fail) or for 1 round(succeed).
    - Save vs. spell: For 1 round, Feeble-minded(fail) or Panicked(succeed).
    - Some creatures will display a "Save vs. type" message separately for each effect(5-6 messages). I remember this bug being reported before(pre 2.0), not sure what causes it, but it is just harmless/redundant feedback.

    Other saving throws modified as posted before.

  • UnknowLOLUnknowLOL Member Posts: 30
    That's great! Thanks for your work.

    I have only managed to test Perilous Veil so far, and it does perform well for a Dark level invocation. Everything else would require quite a bit of respecing, since I've gone for essences and shapes this time around.
    Now that I think about it I might as well just cheat myself several additional invocations to test. I tend to murder my party members once they outlive their usefulness and play solo (such was the will of the Dark Gods!). Guess it will be one bonus invocation per every betrayed soul to keep it fair.

    As a side note, I've got Hellfire HLA recently. While having fun with it utterly melting some serious sh*t (combined with Vitrolic no less) I've been thinking - how does it function exactly? Secondary essence is supposed to be added at half strenght, so does it act as a buff for the other essence you've combined it with by maximizing damage rolls and making it irresistable, or is it added on top of it like the other secondary essences? Combat log isn't really helpful, sometimes it displays some non-colored fire damage (which is probably irresistable Hellfire portion?) along with the usual green acid from Vitrolic, sometimes not. The damage itself is applied consistently.

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,177
    UnknowLOL said:


    As a side note, I've got Hellfire HLA recently. While having fun with it utterly melting some serious sh*t (combined with Vitrolic no less) I've been thinking - how does it function exactly? Secondary essence is supposed to be added at half strenght, so does it act as a buff for the other essence you've combined it with by maximizing damage rolls and making it irresistable, or is it added on top of it like the other secondary essences?

    It acts like any other secondary essence - both the primary essence and Hellfire will deal half damage each.
    Used with Eldricth Claws and Embrace they each deal slightly less than half, a side effect of them not scaling linearly and the adjustment being automated.

    Hellfire (uncolored fire damage) then uses the maximum dice values for its damage, and ignores Fire Resistance.
    At level 22, a normal blast will deal 4d6 Magic Damage and 24 Hellfire Damage, instead of 8d6 Magic Damage. Ave. 38 vs. 28 damage, for a ~35% increase, barring damage resistances.
    It's a small damage buff to whatever essence is currently being used, but it also does not reduce the viability of their non-damage secondary effects.

    Note - Brimstone and Vitriolic will have mixed results, as the Sole Essence their overall damage on a failed save is equal to or greater than using Hellfire.


    I have noticed two bugs with the secondary essences just now:
    - Brimstone and Vitriolic: their half-damage versions are losing too many of their delayed damage packets.

    - I originally only included spell-levels starting at level 22(min for Cleric HLA's), which leaves the Shaman using incorrect effects between levels 18-21. If anything it will be doing excess damage.

    I think I will redo the code for a lot of this, as I have found a way to halve damage without altering the dice numbers, so it will no longer skip odd-numbered dice progression.

  • UnknowLOLUnknowLOL Member Posts: 30
    That makes sense, the added damage is pretty close to what Hellfire Warlock prestige class from 3.5 gets it seems.


    I've got another mod conflict, this time with Item Revisions latest beta, trying to install Warlock on top of it:

    "ERROR: cannot convert warrior or %warrior% to an integer
    ERROR: [CMTPL04.ITM] -> [override/CMTPL04.ITM] Patching Failed (COPY) (Not_found)
    Stopping installation because of error."

    Now I'm not even sure what that might be about.

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,177
    UnknowLOL said:

    "ERROR: cannot convert warrior or %warrior% to an integer
    ERROR: [CMTPL04.ITM] -> [override/CMTPL04.ITM] Patching Failed (COPY) (Not_found)
    Stopping installation because of error."

    I'm surprised that hasn't come up before, the variable wasn't being initialized, curious what that item is that escaped the checks.
    New build should address it. It should also fix the secondary blast issues I had found.

  • UnknowLOLUnknowLOL Member Posts: 30
    edited August 2016
    kjeron said:


    I'm surprised that hasn't come up before, the variable wasn't being initialized, curious what that item is that escaped the checks.
    New build should address it. It should also fix the secondary blast issues I had found.

    Yeah I was surprised as well, since I've already been using a similar item mod (mainly to implement DEX penalties for heavy armor) and everything installed with no problems.
    Anyway it works alright after your fix, thanks.

    Btw, I recommend this Item Revisions mod (I'm not sure it supports IWD though). It implements a lot of 3e-like systems to equipment, which helps 3e Warlock feel "at home" almost =)

    Edit:

    Some minor inconsistency I've noticed - I've picked acid and cold resistance as my pre-HLA choices, now on HLA selection screen cold resistance is properly unpickable (the "plus" button is greyed out) while acid resistance is not. I haven't actually tried to chose it to see if it stacks or just wasted.

    Post edited by UnknowLOL on
  • rivendorrivendor Member Posts: 2
    I'm IWDEE on linux and would love to install this. Any tips for manually installing the kit? Does everything just go in the game/override directory?

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,177
    rivendor said:

    I'm IWDEE on linux and would love to install this. Any tips for manually installing the kit? Does everything just go in the game/override directory?

    Kits are not something that can support override dumping - they need to be installed via Weidu. I do not know anything regarding how linux or mac installations work, sorry.

  • rivendorrivendor Member Posts: 2
    kjeron said:

    rivendor said:

    I'm IWDEE on linux and would love to install this. Any tips for manually installing the kit? Does everything just go in the game/override directory?

    Kits are not something that can support override dumping - they need to be installed via Weidu. I do not know anything regarding how linux or mac installations work, sorry.
    thanks for the reply. There is a weidu linux binary. I'll take a look at that.

  • UliarathidUliarathid Member Posts: 5
    This does not work on the latest version of bgee with SOD, but it works with just bgee? (From my testing) This is somewhat confusing to me.

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,177

    This does not work on the latest version of bgee with SOD, but it works with just bgee? (From my testing) This is somewhat confusing to me.

    What's kind of error is it giving?
    Because I must ask: is modmerge an issue?

  • seraglioseraglio Member Posts: 103
    Hi Kjeron! First I must say, this is an amazing piece of work. Just looking through the .spl's in IE I've learned a TON. This is probably one of the most ambitious and complex mods I've seen.

    I'm running BG1-SoD Shaman Warlock and It's got a major problem. Before I provide a bunch of details I just want to make sure I have the basics down. I doubt the problem is with your mod.

    I downloaded the mod from the link on the first page of this post.

    I'm running the most recent version of SoD with many mods though this mod was installed / re-installed last. I am not running modmerge I don't believe, but I haven't run into any of the typical dialogue related issues that normally require me to run it. The base mods (not yours) were installed with BWS, which may have used modmerge, not sure. This is the beamdog version, not GOG.

    My issue: Projectiles don't work. Thats pretty much it. There are no new projectiles at all, not on elditch blasts/essences, not on permeating blasts/shapes, not on darkness, none of them. When you browse the game files, all seems fine, there are 20ish WRLK projectiles in the list, projectiles.ids seems to have been updated properly. The .pro files are in overides. But they dont work in-game, and invocations that rely on them don't work properly or at all. If replaced with built in projectiles the spells work fine, almost everything else seems to be working...eldritch blasts and essences work fine, there is just no visual. Shapes and other spells that rely on projectiles for targetting dont work.

    I'll also note that during the install, I recall two parts. The shaman kit installation went fine, but the "update new spells" or whatever part threw an error and I had to skip it as I recall. I can get the exact information if neccesary.

    I wanted to limit my post to this incase your'e no longer available to support or , more likely, this is a known issue with SoD. Now that I think about it, I think I have the same issues with the IWD spells mod as well, I have had to replace some CDIxxx projectiles that are there but don't do anything, so I think its a broader issue that I'm just not aware of.

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,177
    edited January 2017
    @seraglio
    First off: Modmerge is only for GoG and Steam, so its not an issue.
    This isn't anything I've ever heard of before, and my projectiles are all handled by WEIDU's own ADD_PROJECTILE action. I'll do what I can to fix the issue, if possible at least.

    The easiest way to assess it would be to see some of the files from the override folder after installation, if you could upload them: "PROJECTL.IDS", "WRLKLS9A.PRO", and "WRLKLS9A.SPL". These are the files for the Hungry Darkness Invocation.

    If you could test the following invocations as well:
    Eldritch Burst and Eldritch Cone, these don't use new projectiles, so they should function.
    Eldritch Burst's area is practically melee range, so you will need targets very close together.
    Eldritch Cone might be out of the Experience Cap for SoD, if so and you have the console enabled, type in it:
    C:Eval("ActionOverride(Myself,ReallForceSpell(\"WRLKBS7\",SecondNearest))")
    hover the mouse over the Warlock's portrait and press enter, it will cast the spell on the nearest creature, just make sure a Blast Essence is already active.

    About the update spells portion failing, I think it's looking for files needed for IWDEE that aren't added to any of the 2.0 games. I have update the mod in the first post to fix this. If not, it might be an item/spell that is already corrupted giving it problems. That part of the mod was written very early on, and doesn't have very many checks against corrupted files, only those I have came across. If the issue persists I will review and try to improve it. This part of the mod is only to update content installed after the main mod, so if Warlock is the last mod you install, it isn't necessary(and should do absolutely nothing).

    The mod didn't have the latest version of Weidu, I don't know that it would cause any issues, especially if everything else was installed through BWS, but I replaced it anyway.

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