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Do you kill Weenog? (Spoilers)

24

Comments

  • VarwulfVarwulf Member Posts: 563
    No - He's a cool guy and he beg's for mercy - How can you do such a thing?!
    Fardragon said:

    Technically, Dobby is an elf, not a goblin.

    Like everything else, they get shorter.

    Elf is just what a goblin calls himself when he doesn't want to be killed on sight by an adventurer just because he is a goblin, there is no rep loss, and his master doesn't care.

    kcwisejackjacklolienNimran
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,247
    No - He's a cool guy and he beg's for mercy - How can you do such a thing?!
    Maybe it's just me, but your poll reply and your written reply seem rather contradictory, Varwulf. The latter indicates you do indeed take the harmless, little cute goblin's life.

    Varwulfkcwise
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    Yes - Why not? He's a goblin anyway, no rep loss, and Orrick doesn't care.
    I never had the idea of killing him before, but since I read here that he is in fact Evil (thanks to Detect Evil) I think it's going to be hard for me to spare his life from now on.

    lolienJuliusBorisovsemiticgoddess
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    No - He's a cool guy and he beg's for mercy - How can you do such a thing?!
    And that is why it's hard for me to play Lawful Good characters.

    lolienJuliusBorisovGemHound
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,061
    No - He's a cool guy and he beg's for mercy - How can you do such a thing?!
    Lawful Good people wouldn't kill people just because they're evil, so that wouldn't be a problem.

    lolien
  • HerrderGezeitenHerrderGezeiten Member Posts: 139
    edited January 2015
    No - He's a cool guy and he beg's for mercy - How can you do such a thing?!
    I saved Viconia . (Evil, have to kill a Guard,....)

    Any questions? (I didn`t do it for the hot boobs, i swear!)

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    No - He's a cool guy and he beg's for mercy - How can you do such a thing?!
    scriver said:

    Lawful Good people wouldn't kill people just because they're evil, so that wouldn't be a problem.

    Plenty of "Lawful Good" Paladins and others out there run entirely counter to this statement. Ones who kill Weenog come to mind.

    lolien
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    Yes - Why not? He's a goblin anyway, no rep loss, and Orrick doesn't care.
    There's two NPC paladins in Baldur's Gate 1. The first is in the wilderness, hunting gibberlings. If your party comes up as evil, she attacks. She doesn't know you, she doesn't know what you have or haven't done. Evil? Attacks a full party of adventurers.

    There is another in a tavern in Baldur's Gate. My party, with evil characters, walks into the inn to get a good night's rest. The paladin approaches, says that some of us are evil...and attacks.

    There are other paladins in the game who don't do that. But this is proof that there are some lawful good paladins who will kill you the second you register as evil.

    jackjackkcwiseloliensemiticgoddess
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,061
    No - He's a cool guy and he beg's for mercy - How can you do such a thing?!
    Even if Paladins or other supposedly LG characters were written like that, that doesn't change that it isn't LG behaviour, and thus that would not be a reason an LG character would be hard to play.

    kcwiseatcDave
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    Yes - Why not? He's a goblin anyway, no rep loss, and Orrick doesn't care.
    How can you say that isn't lawful good behavior?


    Lawful: You follow the laws of your country or your God.
    Good: You do it to bring the most good to the most people.

    Lawful Good Paladin: Your god tells you someone is evil. You are given your powers for the express purpose of destroying those whom your god tells you is evil. So you smite whom your god tells you to smite, and you do it because you sincerely want to bring peace and prosperity to the masses.



    ----

    On the other hand, your god tells you that a well armed band of thugs is evil. How could you let them go free and continue to revel in their evilness? How many people might they hurt or kill if you don't listen to your deity?

    And with Weenog, you can see that goblins are looting and pillaging around town. You come across a family of people who have been slaughtered by them. And then you find one, inside the town itself, working for a mage who outright tells you that he doesn't care one fig about the people in the town. And your god outright tells you that this exact goblin is evil. Are you going to allow it to be sheltered by this mage, and using this cover to help its kin infiltrate the town? Or will you do what your god demands of you and protect the north against the deprivation of Weenog and his ilk?


    For Tyr! Justice will be had this day!

    jackjackkcwiseloliensemiticgoddess
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    Yes - Why not? He's a goblin anyway, no rep loss, and Orrick doesn't care.
    But it isn't killing weenog because he is a gobbo. It's because the paladin's god said weenog was evil. If he registered as neutral or good he'd live.

    And aren't paladins the thugs of 'good'? Clerics can fight. They can wear armor. They are there for communities, for peace and war if need be. Paladins are warriors first and foremost. They are given detect evil to know who needs death.

    Good is defined by your

    jackjack
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,061
    No - He's a cool guy and he beg's for mercy - How can you do such a thing?!
    They are not given Detect Evil to know who to kill, they are given Detect Evil to know who/what is Evil.

    And, Paladins are not "the thugs of good". Thuggish and murder-hobo behaviour is decidedly against the essence of a Paladin. Once again, they're supposed to be Paragons of Good, not going around slaughtering people like some 90's comic anti-hero.

    kcwiseatcDave
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,061
    No - He's a cool guy and he beg's for mercy - How can you do such a thing?!
    I can't disagree with that.

    jackjackwubblekcwise
  • VarwulfVarwulf Member Posts: 563
    No - He's a cool guy and he beg's for mercy - How can you do such a thing?!
    Skatan said:

    Maybe it's just me, but your poll reply and your written reply seem rather contradictory, Varwulf. The latter indicates you do indeed take the harmless, little cute goblin's life.

    I have been know to kill a Weenog on one or two playthroughs, but mostly as an OOC joke. @Nyrox‌ can attest to that ;)

    kcwise
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,688
    No - He's a cool guy and he beg's for mercy - How can you do such a thing?!
    Every time I walk in, I'm like die goblin scum! Then I realize he isnt hostile and I talk to him and realize he isnt worth the xp yet.

    Let him simmer a bit maybe gain a level or two as a mage and then come back and kill him when is XP is worth my time.

    jackjackwubbleGrumkcwise
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    Yes - Why not? He's a goblin anyway, no rep loss, and Orrick doesn't care.
    Scriver is a paladin of Ilmater.
    Grum is a paladin of Tyr.

    Kill pomab because he comes up as evil? No fall.

    Kill Weenog because he comes up as evil? No fall.

    Kill Harold the paladin who has lost his faith? You fall.

    Your gods are very clear on who deserves to die. But as I said before, some gods are more pacifistic than others. Militant gods will have more militant followers. It is not lawful stupid to act as your god intends.

  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
    No - He's a cool guy and he beg's for mercy - How can you do such a thing?!
    I hate to get involved, but what the heck...

    I never buy a paladin killing just because something is evil. Paladins have an above average Wisdom requirement, and must be lawful-good. I can think of nothing more innately lawful-good than the sanctity of life. A paladin should never kill someone just because they are philosophically messed up. The gift of "Detect Evil" from their deity helps them identify threats and risks, but it is NOT license to murder. I expect a paladin to have a far more sophisticated view intent vs action. Some lying cheating merchant may be the most evil man in town, but that doesn't provide justification for running him through.. Especially if that lying, cheating merchant is a coward or whimp who would never hurt anyone, purely out of fear of getting caught.

    The fact that many Paladins, even canon Paladins, are poorly written as murdering thugs does not excuse a PC acting like one. I hold myself to higher standard than I hold game designers!

    scriverDreadKhan
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    Yes - Why not? He's a goblin anyway, no rep loss, and Orrick doesn't care.
    You are using your definition of good. But is that the same definition that the gods use?

    That's why I say paladin actions will vary by deity.

    jackjacksemiticgoddess
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
    No - He's a cool guy and he beg's for mercy - How can you do such a thing?!
    Grum said:

    You are using your definition of good. But is that the same definition that the gods use?

    That's why I say paladin actions will vary by deity.

    Of course I could retort with exactly the same thing. You are presenting a pretty self serving definition of "good".
    Ultimately good is defined however the universal powers define it, whatever you and I say hardly matters.
    But there's no chance I would accept a definition of good that allows for killing a Mage's harmless butler or a merchant with dishonest scales.
    I think you'd do better with the pure meta-game answer... He's evil and I want his scroll...

    scriver
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    Yes - Why not? He's a goblin anyway, no rep loss, and Orrick doesn't care.
    His scroll? Never needed it any of my playthroughs.

    Pure dwarf party, no arcane casters.

    Paladin party, with only a bard for arcane casting. He was a skald, and only sang in combat. The only offensive spell he ever cast was fireball.

    Elven party. Took a sorceror and a bard. The sorceror doesn't need any scrolls, and the bard is there for singing.


    His xp is also so paltry that it isn't worth it either. For each of them, it was a pure RP choice.

    Paladins of Tyr. Killing the agents of evil is worthy of the highest praise? Gotcha.

    ----

    I think you'd do better than assuming that because someone interprets 'lawful good' differently than you, that means that he must be a meta-gamer looking for an excuse.




    "You are presenting a pretty self serving definition of "good".
    Ultimately good is defined however the universal powers define it, whatever you and I say hardly matters. "

    Exactly. Good is defined by the universal powers. The gods, who give the paladin their powers. The gods say that Weenog is evil. You kill Weenog, and you keep your paladin powers. You give a 'mercy killing' to Harold the paladin, and you lose your powers.

    We could argue over the morality of giving Harold the death he wanted, or giving Weenog the death he didn't want. Regardless, the universal powers answered this question. You can disagree with it all you want, but mortals will always disagree. Take it up with the Gods (game designers, if you will). Which is fine...given that D&D gods are not infallible. But I hold to my point that it is completely in line with a lawful good paladin to kill Weenog.


    Call that 'self serving' if you want. But it is no less self serving than taking *your* definition of good, declaring that anything besides that is "lawful stupid" and then insulting the person who disagrees with you.

    semiticgoddess
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,061
    No - He's a cool guy and he beg's for mercy - How can you do such a thing?!
    The gods do not define what is good and what isn't. They are just as bound to DnD's system of objective morality as their worshippers are.

    And murdering a non-threatening, non-hostile sentient creature with no immediate or apparent plans to harm anything just isn't Good. No matter who your patron deity is.

    DreadKhanatcDave
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    Yes - Why not? He's a goblin anyway, no rep loss, and Orrick doesn't care.
    Says you. I've given several concrete examples of paladins doing the exact opposite. Meaning perhaps your concept of good isn't exactly right? Otherwise wouldn't these actions you decry...such as killingweenog. And no, you don't get an out by saying the development were too lazy as it doesn't match your morality.

    semiticgoddess
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    Yes - Why not? He's a goblin anyway, no rep loss, and Orrick doesn't care.
    That was a well thought out argument. Thank you. What decides 'good' then and how do paladins know? What exactly constitutes 'good' has plagued us in RL for quite some time. I imagine if the actual gods can't tell you, then it can't be much easier in Faerun.

  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
    No - He's a cool guy and he beg's for mercy - How can you do such a thing?!
    @dreadkahn I agree with almost all of that. I do agree the paladin would likely look into the evil merchant, check his dealings and activities maybe. The Detect Evil gives the Paladin a bit of useful information that he is expected to act on, but not necessarily kill.
    I always do want to throw in an important distinction about Lawful-Good; the paladin is that alignment in a universal sense. So it is easily possible for a paladin to NOT honor an evil or corrupt government, possibly even make war against such a government. As a Holy warrior I would expect the absolute dictates of good and justice to matter more than the local law of the land.
    Although obviously, a paladin would likely serve and respect a good and just government and its laws.

    kcwise
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Grum said:

    That was a well thought out argument. Thank you. What decides 'good' then and how do paladins know? What exactly constitutes 'good' has plagued us in RL for quite some time. I imagine if the actual gods can't tell you, then it can't be much easier in Faerun.

    Thats the fun in playing a Paladin... good vs evil is easier to handwave in a game enviroment, while its pretty near impossible sometimes in the real world, where people often prefer not to honestly think about their action as good or evil. In DnD, the 'lesser of two evils' is always still evil, which can make play a bit wonky at times... a really experienced DM will likely have an intelligent LE or NE villain deliberately create a scenario to try to force a Paladin to fall, especially at a bad time. The Paladin has to find a way to NOT fall, and prevent the greater evil, which typically means the Big Bad gets to escape, like in some movies. A really experienced DM might toy with a Paladin of a non-Good deity too, pitting faith vs alignment to see how the player deals with the problem. Paladins both restrict roleplaying options and create very good/interesting ones, a net benefit imho.

    As a general guideline, a Paladin should respect just laws, and actively combat evil wherever possible. This can include investigating a person who unexpectedly detects as evil. The high wisdom score requirement isn't a coincidence, nor the stratospheric charisma score. Both are tools he is required to have and use, to make quality decisions/not be forced to jump into unnecessary fights. You could try asking 'what would a really, really good police constable do in this situation' maybe? Its not perfect, but its a starting point. You can't harass or assault people because you suspect they might have committed a crime, but you probably would want to investigate and or find proof of evil doings if you suspect (ie detect evil). Detect evil is a low level spells remember, it only provides a very simple answer to a specific question, 'Is there evil here? how much, ballpark figure wise? strong aura? just a trace?'

    I know in 3.x you can detect as evil even if you personally aren't, ie are carrying an evil artifact. Dunno for sure in 2nd ed.

    @atcDave‌ Yeah, I think we can agree on that. A Paladin wouldn't be obliged to follow illegitimate authority. I think most patrons aren't fans of foolish martyrdom though, so a Paladin might have to pick his battles a bit in an urban scenario featuring corruption.

    kcwiseatcDave
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
    No - He's a cool guy and he beg's for mercy - How can you do such a thing?!
    In most games I've played or run (2E) the assumption is that Detect Evil gives a pretty clear view of where the evil is and how strong it is. But nothing more. So you could distinguish and evil object from the person carrying it, but you would know nothing about influence or motive.
    And that is just a practice. I'm not even sure if that's an accurate implementation!

    kcwise
  • NukefaceNukeface Member Posts: 91
    My personal philosophy on the alignment system is as follows:

    Lawful: I act within society's boundaries ...
    Neutral: I act between my own interests and personal desires ...
    Chaotic: I act in my own interest ...

    Good: ... I hold others well being above my own
    Neutral: ... I neither hold the well being of others above or below myself
    Evil: ... I hold myself above all others

    I think how lawful you are as kind of an indicator of your ability to act in a civilized manner and the second attribute as to your personal character.

    Lawful Good would never attack Weenog without clearly defined acts on Weenog's part that indicate evil - Lawful Good is an extreme alignment that should indicate extreme characteristics. It's cookie cutter, just as Chaotic Evil is cookie cutter. Then you have everything in between.

    Neutral Good: Goblins are bad. Weenog is a goblin. He sure does look shifty... Oh, he definitely twitched. I know I shouldn't but if he truly presents a threat in my eyes then I will slay him.

    Chaotic Good: Friggin' Goblin is gonna die before he turns on the villagers.

    Lawful Neutral: I was told to kill him.

    True Neutral probably wouldn't kill Weenog unless he became too powerful or threatening. More likely to go after Orrick for mistreating Weenog.

    Chaotic Neutral: It's goblin slaying Wednesdays right? All day? Awesome.

    Lawful Evil: I am acting in the name of justice by killing this foul beast on sight because my "god" wills it.

    Neutral Evil: I wonder if I can get Weenog to turn on Orrick and make off with Orrick's stash in the ruckus?

    Chaotic Evil: I want that scroll.

    The problem with saying a LG aligned Paladin would just take Weenog out reflects a lack of insight on the part of the character - this is not appropriate behavior for a Paladin. It's more in line with LN or LE. LG would reflect on the command and use their own judgement on the matter. If your god is a bloodthirsty brute then you're probably playing a version of a Blackguard or some division of a cleric.

    The knight in shining armor archetype only works if it remains an archetype, otherwise you're just the medieval version of a suicide bomber.

    The only acceptable basis for a Paladin or other LG to attack on sight is if you are doing something horrendous. Like killing Weenog without provocation.

    No matter how holy you think you are, if you think you've risen above the laws of mortals then you're just a jerk in armor who has a god complex. A Paladin walks the line between the gods and mortals and strives to make everyone happy. Even Weenog.

    That said, it's still goblin slaying Wednesdays!

    wubblekcwisesemiticgoddess
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