Finally got around a tactic that works well for Demilich version of Kangaxx in SCS/LOB without cheese
#1 Get a archer/fighter who can use firetooth crossbow or gesen and has smite
#2 Position this character on the right hand side of the room
#3 Position your nuking party on the left side of the room (add stuff that works like mordy swords, spike traps, etc.)
#4 When Kangaxx spawn use Smite and shot him before he will cast his protections (fairly easy to do)
#5 Kangaxx will be pushed along the left edge to the corner being stunned 1 round and nuked down. Before this round ends dragon breath also deals damage so it's nice.
Left side of the room is perfect to set up some traps. Time traps, spike traps. summons, anything works and isn't wasted for his lich form.
I didn't end up needing even 1 mordy sword (I did cast it from NRD but it didn't manage to even get in range as I did it mid combat). Two dragon breaths and nuke from FMT carsomyr (GWW) and FM (daystar improved haste) and archer was enough.
Isn't that just abusing a gap in the SCS prebuff script if you're stunning him before it kicks in? Doesn't that entirely defeat the purpose of having prebuffs in the first place?
It's kind of a moot point. You could do the exact same thing with a single Fire Seed (bring Cernd into the party just long enough to conjure a few) even after his pre-buffs triggered. Just activate Smite, throw a Fire Seed at somebody next to Kangaxx, and the demi-lich should go flying into the traps, PFMW or no, though his Stoneskin would block the trap damage if your install switches Spike Traps to dealing piercing damage instead of magic damage.
But if you want to abuse scripts, just use a Protection from Undead scroll on his demi-lich form. It'll completely break his script; he won't be able to cast any spells.
Isn't that just abusing a gap in the SCS prebuff script if you're stunning him before it kicks in? Doesn't that entirely defeat the purpose of having prebuffs in the first place?
@Lord_Tansheron Darn it, why do you have to be right! Make me feel bad about my kills. This is a good thing though, you challenge me.
Problem is that his demilich form has multiple PFMW which literally no way to remove them. SCS makes breach affect liches but not demiliches so your only options are spells or heavy prebuffing and just standing there killing his summoned demons. In terms of trying to melee him down it's almost pointless, basically from challenging to unfun and tedious. In party it's even harder because his area requires all members inside 'gather party...' which means kangaxx will target least buffed member and end him. Improved invis helps though but not for long.
Best option I could think of in terms of killing him with spells would be timestop into multiple ruby rays and/or spellstrike before trying to blow him with Dragon Breaths.
Even in demilich form he has 300+ HP (I think) so dragons breath with 50 average damage means I would need 6/7 of them, or 3/4 with Wish Intoxication (which might actually be a good idea). Could also blast him with cleric spells/rings/daystar for bit more.
I actually just thought, maybe wish breach could work? Never tested really.
I restarted my playthrough so once I get to Kangaxx again I will post above as I don't have save before fight, or maybe just spawn him with CLUA
I restarted to replace Wild Mage with Sorcerer simply because I feel like overall sorcerer is better. While yes I can cast 15+ level 9 spells using Simulacra/Project Image as a wild mage, I just feel like I sacrefice level 1-8 spells too much for this. There is plenty of amazing spells of lower levels which Sorcerer simply excels at. Not like I can't PI TS->IA->Empty book->Dispel magic into another instant PI to achieve same amount of level 9 spell casts (although in 2 rounds instead of 1) but many many more of lower levels. One thing I don't like as a sorc are 4 level 9 known spells because CC/TS/Wish feel like a must so I can't pick Imprisonment/Spellstrike/Spell Trap; in LOB/SCS I probably will pick Imprisonment since those demons and planetars are scary as fuck. With multiple castings sorcerer would make a great use of those. I will be making bigger post on Wild Mage vs Sorcerer for SCS/LOB party runs as I already completed few just to post my impressions. Uhhh I got sidetracked again.
I'll check few more tactics later on.
Still I feel like SCS Twisted Rune was harder my last playthorugh and still will be next run. I don't use PFM and PFU scrolls which would make this piece a cake really. Only place where I feel that all moves are allowed is big 5.
Isn't that just abusing a gap in the SCS prebuff script if you're stunning him before it kicks in? Doesn't that entirely defeat the purpose of having prebuffs in the first place?
abusing a gap, really old school concept, not wrong but old school. and it does not entirely defeat the purpose of having prebuffs, as the prebuff scripts are already there and finding a gap and a tactic (timing, positioning of the party and so on) that let you use that gap is not like fight without the prebuff script. is a different style than ignoring the gap and letting the buffs trigger, but in it there is research, creativity and some skill is involved.
the mod with its prebuff scripts is given as it is, the goal is to beat it, is a player choice in defeating it finding a hole in it or going trough the path intended by the modder, buffing the party to survive, waiting for some buffs to expire and the rest.
both ways are good, as long as they give fun, both styles, old and new school, are legittimate. you are perfectly right saying that it is abusing a gap, but telling if doing it, as long as is not trivial as bombing from FoW with fireballs, is one of the ways of beating the mod or should be avoided is only taste and style related. I personally appreciate more who finds such gaps then who goes trough an interminable sequence of buffs and debuffs and all the rest. my personal taste. and even if i appreciate i don't do the same tactic myself, finding a tactic has its merit, following other people recipes not. but probably i try to find an other gap and pierce trough it, as i am really old school...
This is a pointless line of argument. There is no "good", or "legitimate", or "right" way of doing things, and the entire notion of using terms like that has no place in a PG discussion where it's about personal responsibility and nothing else.
You want to do things a certain way, go ahead. I am in no position to tell you not to go looking for ways to make the scripts you installed with SCS not work - that's entirely up to you. I'm merely offering a critique of that process and pointing out that going to the trouble of putting something into the game only so you can find a way to take it out again appears, to me, a bit counterproductive. Whether or not you act on that critique, and how, is entirely up to you and not subject to any value judgment of any kind whatsoever.
All I'm offering are suggestions and food for thought. Like installing IR/SR.
Exploits are like any other tactic. They're fun for a while, and then they gradually become less interesting and people eventually stop doing them because they want to try something else. Sometimes they're fun for a really long time; sometimes they're only fun for a short time. Either way, people will choose the playstyle that most suits them at the moment.
Though I guess most exploits are still a bit different from actively modding something into the game and then proceeding to find a way to not have that thing actually be in the game. Seems a bit boggling.
In the end my goal isn't to avoid mechanics of SCS but I approach fight from every angle and this was my lazy way to do things angle next time I will dragon's breath his skull.
Just gone through kangaxx 20+ fights so see what works best.
Seems like one tactic was usually so strong others were pale in comparison.
Simply said Project Image -> Alacrity -> Ruby Ray x2 -> Pierce Shield x4 -> ADHW x2 -> dispel PI -> Project Image -> Chain Contigency x3/4 ADHW and that's it. With his 230 HP on LOB it is enough.
Optionally you can timestop to land Pierce Shields and ruby rays as Kangaxx likes to summon demons which sometimes get hit and he likes to move sometimes too.
I pretty much soloed him with Sorc while others patiently waited in the corner.
Things that I checked
Wish Breach doesn't work, probably due to kangaxx low level spells immunity. I checked it mostly due to fact that when enemy casts this their breach was going though my Spell Immunity Abj so I thought it might be different implementation of the spell
Dragon Breath doesn't work as he buffs himself with protection from fire (100 magic fire immunity)
There is no way to remove his PFMW, protection from fire, fire shields, etc. due to his immunity to breach. Need to wait those out for melee types.
Planetar is useless as he is almost instantly Imprisoned during first time stop
Bonus notes
This run I went for Human Skin +5 on archer, with Improved Invis on her she was easily able to resist/saving throw against for Trap of the Soul from Kangaxx
Kangaxx sees through improved invis but it's still nice for saving throw bonuses
It's been forever that I actually did Kangaxx, I can't remember how IR/SR changed Breach and its interaction with demilich immunities. I think it was like SCS?
I may actually get some time to play soon, I'll try and test things a bit. The general strategy I usually employ is similar to yours, though - essentially just a massive bombardment with every protection removal known to man until you get to land some hits eventually.
Sorcerer certainly shines in fights like these, but that's basically it; on most other fights they're a bit awkward because they lack a simple source of damage output, and of course the silly CC combos like Greater Malison into Chaos are far, far less effective under SR than under vanilla rules. I don't think that Kangaxx and similar fights, which are literally the epitome of magical combat, are argument enough for me to want to include a pure caster. A hybrid mage might be less effective, but by no means ineffective - they do the same, with just a little more work. In return, they can get in there and smash the other 99% of the time. Seems well worth it to me.
I'd still like to experiment with DD tanking, but perhaps I'd be better off just switching to a more spell heavy setup and get better at baiting dispels properly.
It's been forever that I actually did Kangaxx, I can't remember how IR/SR changed Breach and its interaction with demilich immunities. I think it was like SCS?
Unless my installation is bricked then SCS changes bahaviour but some enemies are still immune. I have that component but for instance that rakshasa in firewine ruins (rukh the transmuter) was still immune. Same with kangaxx. Either SCS changes all generic enemies excluding named ones or few are expcetions, or of course my installation is damaged.
Sorcerer certainly shines in fights like these, but that's basically it; on most other fights they're a bit awkward because they lack a simple source of damage output, and of course the silly CC combos like Greater Malison into Chaos are far, far less effective under SR than under vanilla rules.
Of course you are correct but I can't agree that sorc is lacking source of damage. I do agree that if you would put paper down and start crunching numbers one would be better than the other in many scenarios.
For instance how I utilize sorc in late SOA/TOB. I cast Project Image -> Improved Alacrity -> Chain Contigency x3 ADHW -> two/three dragon breaths -> dispel myself. At this point I lose one level 7 spell and dished out hundreds of damage for each enemy which in any AOE situation 2 or more enemies is well worth it. This also takes 1/2 rounds to do it all. Few other damaging options include 8x instant acid arrow (nice to see 40-60 damage per round ticking, even in time stop). 7x Flame Arrow. You know... classics but idea is that I only lose 1 project image for all this.
But yes besides damage which for me most of the game is lacking and only endgame is comparable I do take sorcerer purely so that my mage/fighters can focus on defensive/offensive side of the battle rather than debuffing enemy spell casters.
Side note regarding chaos, I do tend to use it only in ch2 as later I find other tactics more suitable.
Note that I'm not convincing you to take one along, I actually wanted to try run without it once but for me they are just too damn fun! Also second reason I tag sorc along is to PI wish resting, not that i need it but I like as it is convenient and few other wish options are cool too! Simply said sorcerer is my power gaming guilty pleasure.
Still my faviourite combo at this moment is FMT time trap into assassination for 700+ damage in a round with basic self buffs.
Understand where you're coming from, definitely. Some of the things you mentioned are rebalanced by SR/IR, of course, others I just personally refuse to utilize (e.g. Wish resting). It's just preference at that point I suppose.
Also I put a lot more emphasis on early/mid game performance. At endgame I find you just have everything and it's only a matter of putting it together. When your people are NOT up to their eyeballs in HLAs and +5 weapons is when you actually have to think hard about what you do. And very often Sorcerers just stand there for like the first half of the series. Yes they're amazing at endgame when mages become unstoppable 1-woman killing machines but at that point EVERYONE in my party is an unstoppable 1-woman killing machine and mages turn into debuff batteries instead. Yay.
That being said, I will totally try a Sorc setup again if I find the time.
EDIT: Come to think of it, I seem to recall Breach not working as it's supposed to being an annoyingly persistent bug in SCS. IIRC it's supposed to bypass spell level immunities but doesn't always; and SR supposedly fixes it to that behavior as intended by SCS. Or something. I could go search and look it up but I am so incredibly lazy.
I'd think that Greater Malison and Chaos would still be good choices in LoB mode with SR/IR. Waves of Fatigue, the level 5 replacement for Chaos, offers some nice penalties with no saving throw, and the new Chaos spell, the level 7 replacement for Sphere of Chaos, is much stronger than in vanilla, as SR gives it a -4 save penalty and the effects are all negative instead of being a mix of positive and negative effects. With SR's Greater Malison, the difference is:
1. Imposing a negative status effect for 7 rounds at a -8 save penalty with a level 4 and 5 mage spell 2. Imposing a negative status effect for 10 rounds at a -6 save penalty with a level 4 and 7 mage spell
It's only marginally less effective in SR/IR, and still should make a strong impact.
Don't get me wrong, the spells available are still useful and I love using them - on hybrid casters. Malison, Chaos, Waves of Fatigue etc. totally fine tools to use. But you can still do that on, say, a FM, and then also go to town bashing heads in. What's a lower level Sorcerer to do? Chuck Magic Missiles for 5 damage?
Should note, of course, that I'm still refusing to use summons. Summons change things a lot.
Also I put a lot more emphasis on early/mid game performance.
...
I also do. I actually went full trilogy run with most of parties I wrote down in this topic. In terms of gameplay you are correct sorcerer alone just stands there and shots darts/daggers most of the time. But I strongly believe sorcerers job in BGEE, SOD and part of BG2EE is similar to one of a Skald rather than a classic DPS.
Sorcerer is a major enabler for rest of the party. In bgee I just love how Greater Malison + Slow + glitter dust basically adds +8 hit roll against enemies and -8 hit roll against my party with pretty much close to no chance of resisting. I find this way more effective than 1 more party member.
Mid game is the same, buff/debuff/spell removal machine allowing 3 melee and 1 ranged to focus on their job and consume their rounds offensively. Before Skald gets bard hat she can't cast much because you will lose song and for this reason I focus her on prebuffing and spell protection removal where the long doesn't matter this much.
I did check what SR does and I think (could be wrong) that a role of a sorcerer would be similar to vanilla one.
Also I can't lie that when I went to planar prison and somehow half of the map got pulled (by either mob running away or better calls for help) I had very very lengthy fight in which I killed total of 5 yuan-ti mages, 2x thrall mages 1x master thrall, 1x blade, 1x assassin, 1x yuan ti cleric and few warrior types, in which I praised having sorcerer who was able to remove spell protections from each of those enemies using breaches/spell thrusts and secret words.
Net net you can go without sorcerer easily throughout the game as many of you guys proven already, I just like having one aboard for when the shit goes sideways.
I don't play BG1 which may change things but for the most part I've found that a Skald and some FM hybrids can cover the whole buff/debuff part of a Sorcerer while ALSO contributing no-questions-asked easy damage, which a Sorcerer's miserable dart-flinging is just not going to compete with. Skald in particular seems like the perfect solution for a main caster that also has impact on weapon damage output (though of course vicariously through other party members).
I don't think I could do with two such characters, particularly since any non-attacking party member diminishes the value of the Skald considerably. And do I want to trade my Skald for a Sorcerer? You know, I'm just not sure that I do.
Few things I consider which might favor F/M dual/multi but one of major ones is that timestop isn't all that great, global stun is all that it is. It's problematic as your other F/M buffs run out if you cast few and enemies do too. I often don't even TS just go improved alacrity and bombard enemies with spells.
One thing I'm really worries is that I barely am able to reach high enough levels to get Ruby Rays pure arcane caster and very soon in chapter 2 you start meeting liches with it, lavok, tolgerias, warden, etc. It's almost impossible to do any major side quest in ch2 without one enemy having it. Without Ruby Ray you are like duck sitting and waiting to get blown up. Of course this is considering 6man party. What alternatives would I get... hmm. Maybe just buff yourself with potions, spell immunity and wait out PFMW and disregard their spell immunities? Risky stuff.
Few setups I consider trying next run
#1 Swapping archer for Cleric/Mage. Plus: entire party can protect against dispel. Contigencies are powerful for C/M. Minus: much less damage per round.
F/Illusionist
FMT
FMC
Skald
Sorcerer
C/Illusionist
#2 Swapping archer for Cleric/Fighter. Plus: Incredible saves with Human Skin. Can get F/Illusionist instead of FMC. Minus: less damage per round outside of GWW.
F/Illusionist
FMT
F/Illusionist
Skald
Sorcerer
Fighter/Cleric
#3 Swapping sorc for Kensage. Plus: Much better damage per round for most of the game. Earlier Timestop for melee is powerful. Minus: Might have issues with some mages early on, which is big disadvantage in SCS.
Few things I consider which might favor F/M dual/multi but one of major ones is that timestop isn't all that great, global stun is all that it is.
We've had that discussion before in this thread, and I'm sticking to my point which is basically agreeing with you: TS is a defensive skill first and foremost, and usually a considerable overall damage loss in a party (obviously not solo). It has its uses, of course, but I don't freak out about it the way some people like to.
One thing I'm really worries is that I barely am able to reach high enough levels to get Ruby Rays pure arcane caster and very soon in chapter 2 you start meeting liches with it, lavok, tolgerias, warden, etc. It's almost impossible to do any major side quest in ch2 without one enemy having it. Without Ruby Ray you are like duck sitting and waiting to get blown up. Of course this is considering 6man party. What alternatives would I get... hmm. Maybe just buff yourself with potions, spell immunity and wait out PFMW and disregard their spell immunities? Risky stuff.
While high-level casters are definitely scary early on, I never ran into problems of not having the tools to beat them. Maybe it's SR that helps, as it reshuffles the whole dispel/protection paradigm a bit and I can't remember how the vanilla ones turned out exactly. Lower level protection removal still works against most of those enemies, though Liches are admittedly a scary affair and I try and leave most of them for after Underdark a lot of the time.
Sorcerer with alacrity is incredibly powerful (nothing new here). SCS irenicus was laughably easy, every single fight with him. Spell protection removals under IA landed so quickly that Irenicus fell within a first round, even dispelled his contigencies the millisecond they triggered. In time stop best is to move few inches away between each spell removals so they don't land at the same time allowing for easy contigency removal too. Simply do 1x ruby ray (spell shield) -> 1x ruby ray (spell trap) -> 1x ruby ray (spell truning) -> 1x ruby ray (globe of invulnerability) -> 1x spell thrust (rest of spell buffs) -> 1x breach (PFMW) -> 2x ruby ray (spell shield/turning/etc. from contigency) -> 1x breach (contigency PFMW) -> dead in round
Sorcerer with Imprisonment was amazing on Hell fight TS -> IA -> 4x Imprisonment on 4 demons -> remove protections from irenicus slayer -> fight done in a round after TS
F/Illusionist has amazing saves at the end of SOA I had -5 unbuffed against almost everything (-12 or more with blur and improved insibility) allowing me to save against pretty much anything
Other notable gameplay stuff
It's fairly easy to kill Renal and run away from Arkanis Gath hasted, he usually doesn't follow through doors. With this you have 6x cheetah boots for party at the start of TOB, I know there is grandmaster armor but I rather use human skin on archer.
You can get blackrazor and +2 saves by giving the geenie the sword and killing him before he disappears (fairly easy to do too)
You can return to Adalon after egg quest to kill her for blood. For maximum XP path.
I've beaten first part 3 (edit: 6) times now. Sprinting improved hasted and spreading party works at least to migitate insects.
Thing is those fallen solars are pretty much badass but thing they don't take very well is some GWW beating with ravager+6. I was able to vorpal them pretty easy on few tries so I guess this works.
Still, feels cheesy to say the least. I guess godlike +6 weapons should be OP?
Suffice to say, if fire shield worked as expected then this fight is actually quite easy. Speaking of which does the death cloud from bodhi gets blocked by fire shield in non-bugged version? It's also much easier when you focus fallen solars first. They have few quirks though like sometimes they teleported to platform where I couldn't reach them.
Nonetheless, now I'm stuck, next part of the battle doesn't trigger so I can't go to platforms as the beam bridges didn't spawn.
Also after so many runs I recently installed Jimfix with buff expiration notices. I must say it is amazing powergamy mod. When you set yourself with auto pause on round end you can instantly rebuff critical buffs like PFMW. Good stuff.
Ascension unfortunately continues to be riddled with bugs, and it's been a bit of a tossup whether it'll work or not whenever I get there. It's definitely one of the most challenging fights, though, largely because there is SO MUCH going on with the number of enemies, special abilities, various phases, and so on. It sort of makes me wish there were more boss fights like it, even at lower levels. Though I suppose that's a paradigm shift in complexity that would be quite a hassle to implement... Can you imagine, though, fighting TorGal in a separate area with multiple stages? Or Mae'var? Or the Shade Lord? Ah, a girl can dream...
On a more realistic note, I've managed to squeeze out some time in my schedule and will probably get to play more this weekend (and the next, fingers crossed). My plan is to quickly evaluate some of my to-do list setups and then power through at least one complete playthrough with whatever I like best.
I've been considering a lot of things. Going back to a Wizard Slayer in some way, for example. Finding a way to make Monk work. Testing a super defensive setup with Sorcerer AND Skald that relies on DD tank + 3 ranged damage dealers. Testing a mage-hybrid-heavy setup where every melee is under Stoneskin and dispel protection. Trying for the 9195925th time to make Druid work in some form. The list is long...
@Lord_Tansheron: I think I've already brought this up in the past, but haven't you found a good use for Earth Elemental form on a Fighter/Druid? If my memory is correct, it has ~40% damage resistance for 50 rounds in SR.
@Lord_Tansheron: I think I've already brought this up in the past, but haven't you found a good use for Earth Elemental form on a Fighter/Druid? If my memory is correct, it has ~40% damage resistance for 50 rounds in SR.
It's on my list, for sure. I'm still not sure where to take the druid exactly, and whether a tanky character is the way. Much depends on how much time I have to test, I'd like to make druid work but I don't LIKE druid so... :P
Comments
#1 Get a archer/fighter who can use firetooth crossbow or gesen and has smite
#2 Position this character on the right hand side of the room
#3 Position your nuking party on the left side of the room (add stuff that works like mordy swords, spike traps, etc.)
#4 When Kangaxx spawn use Smite and shot him before he will cast his protections (fairly easy to do)
#5 Kangaxx will be pushed along the left edge to the corner being stunned 1 round and nuked down. Before this round ends dragon breath also deals damage so it's nice.
Left side of the room is perfect to set up some traps. Time traps, spike traps. summons, anything works and isn't wasted for his lich form.
I didn't end up needing even 1 mordy sword (I did cast it from NRD but it didn't manage to even get in range as I did it mid combat). Two dragon breaths and nuke from FMT carsomyr (GWW) and FM (daystar improved haste) and archer was enough.
But if you want to abuse scripts, just use a Protection from Undead scroll on his demi-lich form. It'll completely break his script; he won't be able to cast any spells.
Problem is that his demilich form has multiple PFMW which literally no way to remove them. SCS makes breach affect liches but not demiliches so your only options are spells or heavy prebuffing and just standing there killing his summoned demons. In terms of trying to melee him down it's almost pointless, basically from challenging to unfun and tedious. In party it's even harder because his area requires all members inside 'gather party...' which means kangaxx will target least buffed member and end him. Improved invis helps though but not for long.
Best option I could think of in terms of killing him with spells would be timestop into multiple ruby rays and/or spellstrike before trying to blow him with Dragon Breaths.
Even in demilich form he has 300+ HP (I think) so dragons breath with 50 average damage means I would need 6/7 of them, or 3/4 with Wish Intoxication (which might actually be a good idea). Could also blast him with cleric spells/rings/daystar for bit more.
I actually just thought, maybe wish breach could work? Never tested really.
I restarted my playthrough so once I get to Kangaxx again I will post above as I don't have save before fight, or maybe just spawn him with CLUA
I restarted to replace Wild Mage with Sorcerer simply because I feel like overall sorcerer is better. While yes I can cast 15+ level 9 spells using Simulacra/Project Image as a wild mage, I just feel like I sacrefice level 1-8 spells too much for this. There is plenty of amazing spells of lower levels which Sorcerer simply excels at. Not like I can't PI TS->IA->Empty book->Dispel magic into another instant PI to achieve same amount of level 9 spell casts (although in 2 rounds instead of 1) but many many more of lower levels. One thing I don't like as a sorc are 4 level 9 known spells because CC/TS/Wish feel like a must so I can't pick Imprisonment/Spellstrike/Spell Trap; in LOB/SCS I probably will pick Imprisonment since those demons and planetars are scary as fuck. With multiple castings sorcerer would make a great use of those. I will be making bigger post on Wild Mage vs Sorcerer for SCS/LOB party runs as I already completed few just to post my impressions. Uhhh I got sidetracked again.
I'll check few more tactics later on.
Still I feel like SCS Twisted Rune was harder my last playthorugh and still will be next run. I don't use PFM and PFU scrolls which would make this piece a cake really. Only place where I feel that all moves are allowed is big 5.
And I still feel I need to plug the regular reminder to go try out IR/SR.
and it does not entirely defeat the purpose of having prebuffs, as the prebuff scripts are already there and finding a gap and a tactic (timing, positioning of the party and so on) that let you use that gap is not like fight without the prebuff script.
is a different style than ignoring the gap and letting the buffs trigger, but in it there is research, creativity and some skill is involved.
the mod with its prebuff scripts is given as it is, the goal is to beat it, is a player choice in defeating it finding a hole in it or going trough the path intended by the modder, buffing the party to survive, waiting for some buffs to expire and the rest.
both ways are good, as long as they give fun, both styles, old and new school, are legittimate.
you are perfectly right saying that it is abusing a gap, but telling if doing it, as long as is not trivial as bombing from FoW with fireballs, is one of the ways of beating the mod or should be avoided is only taste and style related. I personally appreciate more who finds such gaps then who goes trough an interminable sequence of buffs and debuffs and all the rest. my personal taste. and even if i appreciate i don't do the same tactic myself, finding a tactic has its merit, following other people recipes not. but probably i try to find an other gap and pierce trough it, as i am really old school...
You want to do things a certain way, go ahead. I am in no position to tell you not to go looking for ways to make the scripts you installed with SCS not work - that's entirely up to you. I'm merely offering a critique of that process and pointing out that going to the trouble of putting something into the game only so you can find a way to take it out again appears, to me, a bit counterproductive. Whether or not you act on that critique, and how, is entirely up to you and not subject to any value judgment of any kind whatsoever.
All I'm offering are suggestions and food for thought. Like installing IR/SR.
Though I guess most exploits are still a bit different from actively modding something into the game and then proceeding to find a way to not have that thing actually be in the game. Seems a bit boggling.
In the end my goal isn't to avoid mechanics of SCS but I approach fight from every angle and this was my lazy way to do things angle
Seems like one tactic was usually so strong others were pale in comparison.
Simply said Project Image -> Alacrity -> Ruby Ray x2 -> Pierce Shield x4 -> ADHW x2 -> dispel PI -> Project Image -> Chain Contigency x3/4 ADHW and that's it. With his 230 HP on LOB it is enough.
Optionally you can timestop to land Pierce Shields and ruby rays as Kangaxx likes to summon demons which sometimes get hit and he likes to move sometimes too.
I pretty much soloed him with Sorc while others patiently waited in the corner.
Things that I checked
- Wish Breach doesn't work, probably due to kangaxx low level spells immunity. I checked it mostly due to fact that when enemy casts this their breach was going though my Spell Immunity Abj so I thought it might be different implementation of the spell
- Dragon Breath doesn't work as he buffs himself with protection from fire (100 magic fire immunity)
- There is no way to remove his PFMW, protection from fire, fire shields, etc. due to his immunity to breach. Need to wait those out for melee types.
- Planetar is useless as he is almost instantly Imprisoned during first time stop
Bonus notesI may actually get some time to play soon, I'll try and test things a bit. The general strategy I usually employ is similar to yours, though - essentially just a massive bombardment with every protection removal known to man until you get to land some hits eventually.
Sorcerer certainly shines in fights like these, but that's basically it; on most other fights they're a bit awkward because they lack a simple source of damage output, and of course the silly CC combos like Greater Malison into Chaos are far, far less effective under SR than under vanilla rules. I don't think that Kangaxx and similar fights, which are literally the epitome of magical combat, are argument enough for me to want to include a pure caster. A hybrid mage might be less effective, but by no means ineffective - they do the same, with just a little more work. In return, they can get in there and smash the other 99% of the time. Seems well worth it to me.
I'd still like to experiment with DD tanking, but perhaps I'd be better off just switching to a more spell heavy setup and get better at baiting dispels properly.
For instance how I utilize sorc in late SOA/TOB. I cast Project Image -> Improved Alacrity -> Chain Contigency x3 ADHW -> two/three dragon breaths -> dispel myself. At this point I lose one level 7 spell and dished out hundreds of damage for each enemy which in any AOE situation 2 or more enemies is well worth it. This also takes 1/2 rounds to do it all. Few other damaging options include 8x instant acid arrow (nice to see 40-60 damage per round ticking, even in time stop). 7x Flame Arrow. You know... classics but idea is that I only lose 1 project image for all this.
But yes besides damage which for me most of the game is lacking and only endgame is comparable I do take sorcerer purely so that my mage/fighters can focus on defensive/offensive side of the battle rather than debuffing enemy spell casters.
Side note regarding chaos, I do tend to use it only in ch2 as later I find other tactics more suitable.
Note that I'm not convincing you to take one along, I actually wanted to try run without it once but for me they are just too damn fun! Also second reason I tag sorc along is to PI wish resting, not that i need it but I like as it is convenient and few other wish options are cool too! Simply said sorcerer is my power gaming guilty pleasure.
Still my faviourite combo at this moment is FMT time trap into assassination for 700+ damage in a round
Also I put a lot more emphasis on early/mid game performance. At endgame I find you just have everything and it's only a matter of putting it together. When your people are NOT up to their eyeballs in HLAs and +5 weapons is when you actually have to think hard about what you do. And very often Sorcerers just stand there for like the first half of the series. Yes they're amazing at endgame when mages become unstoppable 1-woman killing machines but at that point EVERYONE in my party is an unstoppable 1-woman killing machine and mages turn into debuff batteries instead. Yay.
That being said, I will totally try a Sorc setup again if I find the time.
EDIT: Come to think of it, I seem to recall Breach not working as it's supposed to being an annoyingly persistent bug in SCS. IIRC it's supposed to bypass spell level immunities but doesn't always; and SR supposedly fixes it to that behavior as intended by SCS. Or something. I could go search and look it up but I am so incredibly lazy.
1. Imposing a negative status effect for 7 rounds at a -8 save penalty with a level 4 and 5 mage spell
2. Imposing a negative status effect for 10 rounds at a -6 save penalty with a level 4 and 7 mage spell
It's only marginally less effective in SR/IR, and still should make a strong impact.
Should note, of course, that I'm still refusing to use summons. Summons change things a lot.
Sorcerer is a major enabler for rest of the party. In bgee I just love how Greater Malison + Slow + glitter dust basically adds +8 hit roll against enemies and -8 hit roll against my party with pretty much close to no chance of resisting. I find this way more effective than 1 more party member.
Mid game is the same, buff/debuff/spell removal machine allowing 3 melee and 1 ranged to focus on their job and consume their rounds offensively. Before Skald gets bard hat she can't cast much because you will lose song and for this reason I focus her on prebuffing and spell protection removal where the long doesn't matter this much.
I did check what SR does and I think (could be wrong) that a role of a sorcerer would be similar to vanilla one.
Also I can't lie that when I went to planar prison and somehow half of the map got pulled (by either mob running away or better calls for help) I had very very lengthy fight in which I killed total of 5 yuan-ti mages, 2x thrall mages 1x master thrall, 1x blade, 1x assassin, 1x yuan ti cleric and few warrior types, in which I praised having sorcerer who was able to remove spell protections from each of those enemies using breaches/spell thrusts and secret words.
Net net you can go without sorcerer easily throughout the game as many of you guys proven already, I just like having one aboard for when the shit goes sideways. Lovin it! Hope you will enjoy it!
I don't think I could do with two such characters, particularly since any non-attacking party member diminishes the value of the Skald considerably. And do I want to trade my Skald for a Sorcerer? You know, I'm just not sure that I do.
Few things I consider which might favor F/M dual/multi but one of major ones is that timestop isn't all that great, global stun is all that it is. It's problematic as your other F/M buffs run out if you cast few and enemies do too. I often don't even TS just go improved alacrity and bombard enemies with spells.
One thing I'm really worries is that I barely am able to reach high enough levels to get Ruby Rays pure arcane caster and very soon in chapter 2 you start meeting liches with it, lavok, tolgerias, warden, etc. It's almost impossible to do any major side quest in ch2 without one enemy having it. Without Ruby Ray you are like duck sitting and waiting to get blown up. Of course this is considering 6man party. What alternatives would I get... hmm. Maybe just buff yourself with potions, spell immunity and wait out PFMW and disregard their spell immunities? Risky stuff.
Few setups I consider trying next run
#1 Swapping archer for Cleric/Mage.
Plus: entire party can protect against dispel. Contigencies are powerful for C/M.
Minus: much less damage per round.
- F/Illusionist
- FMT
- FMC
- Skald
- Sorcerer
- C/Illusionist
#2 Swapping archer for Cleric/Fighter.Plus: Incredible saves with Human Skin. Can get F/Illusionist instead of FMC.
Minus: less damage per round outside of GWW.
- F/Illusionist
- FMT
- F/Illusionist
- Skald
- Sorcerer
- Fighter/Cleric
#3 Swapping sorc for Kensage.Plus: Much better damage per round for most of the game. Earlier Timestop for melee is powerful.
Minus: Might have issues with some mages early on, which is big disadvantage in SCS.
My thoughts
- Sorcerer with alacrity is incredibly powerful (nothing new here). SCS irenicus was laughably easy, every single fight with him. Spell protection removals under IA landed so quickly that Irenicus fell within a first round, even dispelled his contigencies the millisecond they triggered. In time stop best is to move few inches away between each spell removals so they don't land at the same time allowing for easy contigency removal too. Simply do 1x ruby ray (spell shield) -> 1x ruby ray (spell trap) -> 1x ruby ray (spell truning) -> 1x ruby ray (globe of invulnerability) -> 1x spell thrust (rest of spell buffs) -> 1x breach (PFMW) -> 2x ruby ray (spell shield/turning/etc. from contigency) -> 1x breach (contigency PFMW) -> dead in round
- Sorcerer with Imprisonment was amazing on Hell fight TS -> IA -> 4x Imprisonment on 4 demons -> remove protections from irenicus slayer -> fight done in a round after TS
- F/Illusionist has amazing saves at the end of SOA I had -5 unbuffed against almost everything (-12 or more with blur and improved insibility) allowing me to save against pretty much anything
Other notable gameplay stuffI've beaten first part 3 (edit: 6) times now. Sprinting improved hasted and spreading party works at least to migitate insects.
Thing is those fallen solars are pretty much badass but thing they don't take very well is some GWW beating with ravager+6. I was able to vorpal them pretty easy on few tries so I guess this works.
Still, feels cheesy to say the least. I guess godlike +6 weapons should be OP?
Suffice to say, if fire shield worked as expected then this fight is actually quite easy. Speaking of which does the death cloud from bodhi gets blocked by fire shield in non-bugged version? It's also much easier when you focus fallen solars first. They have few quirks though like sometimes they teleported to platform where I couldn't reach them.
Nonetheless, now I'm stuck, next part of the battle doesn't trigger so I can't go to platforms as the beam bridges didn't spawn.
Oh well.
Time for new playthrough then.
Kensai 13 -> Mage
F/Illusionist
FMT
FMC
Skald
Archer
Also after so many runs I recently installed Jimfix with buff expiration notices. I must say it is amazing powergamy mod. When you set yourself with auto pause on round end you can instantly rebuff critical buffs like PFMW. Good stuff.
On a more realistic note, I've managed to squeeze out some time in my schedule and will probably get to play more this weekend (and the next, fingers crossed). My plan is to quickly evaluate some of my to-do list setups and then power through at least one complete playthrough with whatever I like best.
I've been considering a lot of things. Going back to a Wizard Slayer in some way, for example. Finding a way to make Monk work. Testing a super defensive setup with Sorcerer AND Skald that relies on DD tank + 3 ranged damage dealers. Testing a mage-hybrid-heavy setup where every melee is under Stoneskin and dispel protection. Trying for the 9195925th time to make Druid work in some form. The list is long...