@SandmanCCL I really hope Overhaul, well, overhauls the Unholy Avenger +5. At the very least, it needs an awesome icon and a neat color palette. Perhaps a black blade with a silver hilt, or a blue blade with a black hilt!
@Roller12 I don't have any of the 2E rulebooks, myself, but I don't imagine a sub-race would get an exclusive multi-class option AND the ability to fly at-will.
@Fake_Sketch You and me both. As Sandman pointed out, there's at least an opportunity for an anti-Carsomyr in BG2. I wouldn't be surprised if they added a Blackguard-only item to Thalantyr's shop at High Hedge.
"Avariel can become fighters (not rangers or paladins), mages, and clerics, as well as the multiclass combinations available to these three. There are no recorded instances of avariel rogues."
Quoted straight from the avariel section in Accessory 2131 "Complete Book of Elves"
Or i also recall reading Haer'Dalis having too many proficiencies, which are actually legal. We just dont know the background, and i find it cool. Still lots to discover about the game. One of the few games where having something out of line does not mean its a bug.
DwarfDrugar: 2) It's been asked before I believe, but there were conflicting answers; is Blackguard a fighter or a paladin kit? Dorn being a half-orc (and thus inelligible for Paladin) suggests fighter, I think?
OverhaulNathan: 2. It's a Paladin Kit. Dorn is spershul.
Which suggests that the Blackguard is in fact a Paladin kit (not Fighter), and that it normally is unique to Humans but Dorn is a rule-breaker.
DwarfDrugar: 2) It's been asked before I believe, but there were conflicting answers; is Blackguard a fighter or a paladin kit? Dorn being a half-orc (and thus inelligible for Paladin) suggests fighter, I think?
OverhaulNathan: 2. It's a Paladin Kit. Dorn is spershul.
Which suggests that the Blackguard is in fact a Paladin kit (not Fighter), and that it normally is unique to Humans but Dorn is a rule-breaker.
Then we'd better find him some golden armor, I guess.
Heh Sounds like you'll be taking Dorn straight to Durlags Tower.
Seems like an interesting class to say the least, hope it is a fighter kit or a seperate kit entirely. Paladins getting tossed arround alot but in my view it wouldn't make too much sense. It does look like a modified paladin kit but reading the paladin description then looking over the kit details and finding the blackguard - "Blackguards feast on souls and pledge themselves to darkness" may seem out of place.
You'd hope they wouldn't restrict their race to human, Dorn being the only Half-Orc able to be a Blackguard would drive me insane. Seperate kit would work.
I would of liked more aura uses per day as well, anyone know how long the effects last? Would like it to remain useful into epic levels (epic aura perhaps?) and be able to have it active at the same time as an epic combat ability such as whirlwind. Still awhile away but if I'm going to play one through, I'd like to know.
DwarfDrugar: 2) It's been asked before I believe, but there were conflicting answers; is Blackguard a fighter or a paladin kit? Dorn being a half-orc (and thus inelligible for Paladin) suggests fighter, I think?
OverhaulNathan: 2. It's a Paladin Kit. Dorn is spershul.
Which suggests that the Blackguard is in fact a Paladin kit (not Fighter), and that it normally is unique to Humans but Dorn is a rule-breaker.
DwarfDrugar: 2) It's been asked before I believe, but there were conflicting answers; is Blackguard a fighter or a paladin kit? Dorn being a half-orc (and thus inelligible for Paladin) suggests fighter, I think?
OverhaulNathan: 2. It's a Paladin Kit. Dorn is spershul.
Which suggests that the Blackguard is in fact a Paladin kit (not Fighter), and that it normally is unique to Humans but Dorn is a rule-breaker.
someone else was talking about how this class has no down sides and they are right, first of all, grand mastery in the bg II engine is complete balls, he is only missing + 1 to hit/ damage and -1 speed factor which is poop because most +5 weapons are around 0 speed factor anyway, plus being evil is not a downside in the slightest, you can be evil and still act as if you were lawful good, have 20 rep and have a team full of goodie goodies and all is good, just like how at the end of SoA if you choose an "evil" path your alignment changes to neutral evil, OH MY GOD NO WAY, NOT NEUTRAL EVIL *wank* which actually does nothing to my game play style, so this black guard needs to be like this: #1: it has to be its own class, like the barbarian for example, that would actually make the most sense ( based on the fact it is like a paladin per say but you can be it without being human) #2: it has to have the paladin/ranger experience progression, the benifets are too good for a fighter progression, #3: there has to be a penalty with having a high reputation since this class is supposed to be considered evil and such, it should be like the paladan where if his reputation gets to low he becomes fallen and loses paladin benifits, so with the black guard if his reputation gets to high he becomes a i dont know, "disgraced fallen paladin" i guess and loses his benifits, to make it so you actually have to play evil and not exploit the benifits of this class while being good when you shouldnt, and if people dont agree with this, then yer all just shilly nillies
@sarevok57: Makes a good point...can you ever really lose fallen paladin status?
I don't think divine casting is too useful on the ranger (besides Armour of Faith). But it's pretty great on the Paladin as I recall. This seems to be the case in every DnD edition so far...
I gotta ask, @Schneidend, you mentioned the class was good but it was not exactly what you expected. What were you looking for, hm?
@Isair Assuming I don't kill him for an emergency Reputation boost (Trent said recruiting him is a big hit to your Rep, so I assume killing him will provide the opposite), I always need to make my PC look as different as possible from the rest of the group, so I usually keep ahnkeg plate and Plate Mail +3 for myself. ;P
@sarevok57 1. Grand Mastery sucking in the BGII engine is a bug, which I'm sure will be fixed in EE. If it is, not having Grand Mastery is definitely a greater concern than it normally would be.
2. Being Evil prevents a character from using Twinkle, Carsomyr, or Purifier.
3. The Blackguard does have downsides in the lack of divine spellcasting (especially no Draw Upon Holy Might) and apparently not getting the +2 bonus to saving throws.
@Silence I was kind of hoping for something like a +1 cold damage and +1 acid damage on melee attacks at higher levels, to somewhat mirror the 4E Blackguard's Dread Smite ability that adds a cold and necrotic damage-over-time to one attack for the round. Poison Weapon is enough like Dread Smite to be very cool, but I just prefer something passive because I almost never want/remember to use daily abilities. I always want to "save" them for the next fight that might be around the corner. Also, Poison Weapon is already an Assassin kit ability, so I didn't want them to borrow that.
I also hoped that any aura ability they gave the BG would be passive, like the 3E version of the class.
I'd love a quest with an evil sword. Please, oh please, give us an evil sword.
@Schneidend: Yeah. I prefer the passive abilities to the activated ones. But a persistent aura in BG2 would be insanely powerful. I think Paladins are supposed to have a persistent aura too.
The poison use surprised me. It's almost like they used the 3e model of the BG rather than the 4e one.
I don't think the change in GM is a bug, just a balance decision. If it were a bug, it should have been fixed in the million patches of the game (and the expansion ToB) that came after. If it's a bug and it wasn't fixed, that's just gross.
@Silence If it's a balance decision, I'd say it's a stupid one. Makes the vanilla Fighter an unattractive option for dedicated melee butt-kickery. I mean, it's the only advantage a Fighter has over a Paladin.
And, yeah, I would have much preferred a 4E-styled Blackguard, but I can see how that'd be tough in the Infinite Engine. I don't think the persistent aura would be overpowered if they just made it less powerful than the daily version. Currently, I'll almost never use Aura of Despair or Drain Health because you don't get more uses of them as you level up, which stinks.
Now that I think of it, though, Poison Weapon is a lot like the awesome acid/poison damage Daily Attack 4E Blackguards can pick up at level 25, so I think I'll RP it as such.
@Schneidend those 3 weapons kinda smell like do-do, twinkle is barely useable in bg II because wad pocket comes to take it from you, and the other 2 are only usefull for paladins, or fighter/thieves who have use any item, so being evil still isnt all that harsh, my characters in ToB are always neutral evil because of the trials, even my cavalier which doesnt become fallen and he still gets to use the holy avenger, ah good stuff
The good news is that the Overhaul ppl support the restoration of true grandmastery (Oster and Tofer agreed with the post).
The current form of Grandmastery needs to get better. I'd give grandmastery at least a +3/+5 instead of the current +3/+3. As it stands, it is not worth the investment at all.
FTR, I'm *not* in favour of the extra attack. I don't mind having it and fans seem to want it, but I don't believe it is necessary as long as the damage bonus of GM is very high. Make it worthwhile, but don't make it ridiculous.
If you do, then the other classes start to suffer. The ranger basically lost its main advantage in BG - which was unrestricted and exclusive access to dual wield (other characters needed a LOT of DEX to do this). Now any warrior can dual wield as long as they spend the pips, and in fact the fighter does it better.
Paladin kit eh? Hello Order of the Radiant Heart, yes I'm here to poison your water supply. Wonder if there'll be a separate stronghold in BG2. Higher Xp requirements make sense, just not fussed on the human/sub kit of the paladin aspect.
I clearly need to pay more attention to the previous comments. Does seem like it'll be a enjoyable class to play through.
Twinkle makes a massive difference in BG1, +3 with -2 AC outstanding. Couple that with the +2 shield/full plate and you're tanking. In comparison to fighters, there's much more diverse paths to take a human fighter down - Dual to mage - thief etc. I don't think it's too overpowered.
Schneidend, we both know the best way to stand out from your dull party/goons is come TOB don the Big Metal Unit. It combines the thrill of taking up half the screen with the inability to enter doorways.
@Isair Look, my penchant for greatswords is already over-compensation enough. If I get in a giant robot with a rocket launcher for a crotch, Viconia and Neera are going to gossip. :P
@Silence I'd have to agree. A damage boost is competitive, while an extra attack is outright overwhelming. Grand Mastery should provide the proper bonuses, but not an entire extra attack.
On the AMAA: DwarfDrugar: 2) It's been asked before I believe, but there were conflicting answers; is Blackguard a fighter or a paladin kit? Dorn being a half-orc (and thus inelligible for Paladin) suggests fighter, I think? OverhaulNathan: 2. It's a Paladin Kit. Dorn is spershul.
Which suggests that the Blackguard is in fact a Paladin kit (not Fighter), and that it normally is unique to Humans but Dorn is a rule-breaker.
Yeah I figured it'd be quicker if we just asked instead of discussing back and forth for three weeks :-p
I wonder if a blackguard can be turned by good clerics like paladins get by evil ones. I always found it funny when Viconia turned undead and Keldorn started running around like a headless chicken.
I agree, Captain. Many of 2E's restrictions always boggled my mind. Ranger and Paladin should not be race-restricted, and Clerics should be able to use bladed weapons.
I agree, Captain. Many of 2E's restrictions always boggled my mind. Ranger and Paladin should not be race-restricted, and Clerics should be able to use bladed weapons.
lulz. I'm just imagining how OP Clerics would be with blades.
Which both appear in BG2. I don't see your point. Everyone is OP by the time you can get Crom Faeyr. I'll admit that the Flail of Ages is rather impressive for the level you can get it at though, since you can basically jump out of Irenicus' dungeon, get the quest and go to the de'Arnise Hold.
In terms of game balance I always use BG1 as reference, to be honest, which is why I say "which both appear in BG2."
I'm just pointing out that my already extremely powerful Fighter/Clerics or Cleric/Rangers would be even more ridiculous with swords.
Crom Faeyr is wasted on a Cleric. A cleric would rather dual wield flail of ages +4 and Defender of Easthaven. You can get 25 strength easily with Clerics anyway, as well as double their HP, give the same ability as Kensai's kai, just that it lasts longer, improved constitution and dexterity.
As for clerics with swords, well, depends. In Baldur's Gate 1, the two most damaging weapons are usable by clerics.
Nope, but Holy Power + Draw Upon Holy Might + Righteous Magic lowers their THAC0 so much that dual wielding is in fact very advantageous. Trust me, I played several clerics to death, with the above spells, they can own pretty much anything, even High level Warriors.
Comments
I really hope Overhaul, well, overhauls the Unholy Avenger +5. At the very least, it needs an awesome icon and a neat color palette. Perhaps a black blade with a silver hilt, or a blue blade with a black hilt!
@Roller12
I don't have any of the 2E rulebooks, myself, but I don't imagine a sub-race would get an exclusive multi-class option AND the ability to fly at-will.
@Fake_Sketch
You and me both. As Sandman pointed out, there's at least an opportunity for an anti-Carsomyr in BG2. I wouldn't be surprised if they added a Blackguard-only item to Thalantyr's shop at High Hedge.
But just recently discussed it in another thread Also http://www.lomion.de/cmm/elfwinge.php
Or i also recall reading Haer'Dalis having too many proficiencies, which are actually legal. We just dont know the background, and i find it cool. Still lots to discover about the game. One of the few games where having something out of line does not mean its a bug.
Hrrmmmmm. Velly eentereshting...
DwarfDrugar: 2) It's been asked before I believe, but there were conflicting answers; is Blackguard a fighter or a paladin kit? Dorn being a half-orc (and thus inelligible for Paladin) suggests fighter, I think?
OverhaulNathan: 2. It's a Paladin Kit. Dorn is spershul.
Which suggests that the Blackguard is in fact a Paladin kit (not Fighter), and that it normally is unique to Humans but Dorn is a rule-breaker.
Seems like an interesting class to say the least, hope it is a fighter kit or a seperate kit entirely. Paladins getting tossed arround alot but in my view it wouldn't make too much sense. It does look like a modified paladin kit but reading the paladin description then looking over the kit details and finding the blackguard - "Blackguards feast on souls and pledge themselves to darkness" may seem out of place.
You'd hope they wouldn't restrict their race to human, Dorn being the only Half-Orc able to be a Blackguard would drive me insane. Seperate kit would work.
I would of liked more aura uses per day as well, anyone know how long the effects last? Would like it to remain useful into epic levels (epic aura perhaps?) and be able to have it active at the same time as an epic combat ability such as whirlwind. Still awhile away but if I'm going to play one through, I'd like to know.
I don't think divine casting is too useful on the ranger (besides Armour of Faith). But it's pretty great on the Paladin as I recall. This seems to be the case in every DnD edition so far...
I gotta ask, @Schneidend, you mentioned the class was good but it was not exactly what you expected. What were you looking for, hm?
Assuming I don't kill him for an emergency Reputation boost (Trent said recruiting him is a big hit to your Rep, so I assume killing him will provide the opposite), I always need to make my PC look as different as possible from the rest of the group, so I usually keep ahnkeg plate and Plate Mail +3 for myself. ;P
@sarevok57
1. Grand Mastery sucking in the BGII engine is a bug, which I'm sure will be fixed in EE. If it is, not having Grand Mastery is definitely a greater concern than it normally would be.
2. Being Evil prevents a character from using Twinkle, Carsomyr, or Purifier.
3. The Blackguard does have downsides in the lack of divine spellcasting (especially no Draw Upon Holy Might) and apparently not getting the +2 bonus to saving throws.
@Silence
I was kind of hoping for something like a +1 cold damage and +1 acid damage on melee attacks at higher levels, to somewhat mirror the 4E Blackguard's Dread Smite ability that adds a cold and necrotic damage-over-time to one attack for the round. Poison Weapon is enough like Dread Smite to be very cool, but I just prefer something passive because I almost never want/remember to use daily abilities. I always want to "save" them for the next fight that might be around the corner. Also, Poison Weapon is already an Assassin kit ability, so I didn't want them to borrow that.
I also hoped that any aura ability they gave the BG would be passive, like the 3E version of the class.
@Schneidend: Yeah. I prefer the passive abilities to the activated ones. But a persistent aura in BG2 would be insanely powerful. I think Paladins are supposed to have a persistent aura too.
The poison use surprised me. It's almost like they used the 3e model of the BG rather than the 4e one.
I don't think the change in GM is a bug, just a balance decision. If it were a bug, it should have been fixed in the million patches of the game (and the expansion ToB) that came after. If it's a bug and it wasn't fixed, that's just gross.
If it's a balance decision, I'd say it's a stupid one. Makes the vanilla Fighter an unattractive option for dedicated melee butt-kickery. I mean, it's the only advantage a Fighter has over a Paladin.
And, yeah, I would have much preferred a 4E-styled Blackguard, but I can see how that'd be tough in the Infinite Engine. I don't think the persistent aura would be overpowered if they just made it less powerful than the daily version. Currently, I'll almost never use Aura of Despair or Drain Health because you don't get more uses of them as you level up, which stinks.
Now that I think of it, though, Poison Weapon is a lot like the awesome acid/poison damage Daily Attack 4E Blackguards can pick up at level 25, so I think I'll RP it as such.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/3268/#Comment_3268
The good news is that the Overhaul ppl support the restoration of true grandmastery (Oster and Tofer agreed with the post).
The current form of Grandmastery needs to get better. I'd give grandmastery at least a +3/+5 instead of the current +3/+3. As it stands, it is not worth the investment at all.
FTR, I'm *not* in favour of the extra attack. I don't mind having it and fans seem to want it, but I don't believe it is necessary as long as the damage bonus of GM is very high. Make it worthwhile, but don't make it ridiculous.
If you do, then the other classes start to suffer. The ranger basically lost its main advantage in BG - which was unrestricted and exclusive access to dual wield (other characters needed a LOT of DEX to do this). Now any warrior can dual wield as long as they spend the pips, and in fact the fighter does it better.
I clearly need to pay more attention to the previous comments. Does seem like it'll be a enjoyable class to play through.
Twinkle makes a massive difference in BG1, +3 with -2 AC outstanding. Couple that with the +2 shield/full plate and you're tanking. In comparison to fighters, there's much more diverse paths to take a human fighter down - Dual to mage - thief etc. I don't think it's too overpowered.
Schneidend, we both know the best way to stand out from your dull party/goons is come TOB don the Big Metal Unit. It combines the thrill of taking up half the screen with the inability to enter doorways.
Look, my penchant for greatswords is already over-compensation enough. If I get in a giant robot with a rocket launcher for a crotch, Viconia and Neera are going to gossip. :P
@Silence
I'd have to agree. A damage boost is competitive, while an extra attack is outright overwhelming. Grand Mastery should provide the proper bonuses, but not an entire extra attack.
On a side note, if it made any sense to the team when adding this new kit...
Put Barbarian as a kit under the Fighter class and then put this Black Guard (Dark Paladin) in the slot where Barbarian used to occupy.
In terms of game balance I always use BG1 as reference, to be honest, which is why I say "which both appear in BG2."
I'm just pointing out that my already extremely powerful Fighter/Clerics or Cleric/Rangers would be even more ridiculous with swords.
As for clerics with swords, well, depends. In Baldur's Gate 1, the two most damaging weapons are usable by clerics.
Trust me, I played several clerics to death, with the above spells, they can own pretty much anything, even High level Warriors.