What are your feelings about EE classes?
Arunsun
Member Posts: 1,592
Namely:
Dwarven Defender
Shadowdancer
Blackguard
Sun soul monk
Dark moon monk
Dragon disciple
My opinion:
Shadowdancer is decent if you dual class him. Otherwise it is pretty bad. Like all thief kits though. As a dual class, it is strong when dualed with any other class. Permabackstab due to HIPS is strong as priest for priest has nice buffs (namely Righteous magic). I am still experimenting Shadowdancer/Mage. Looks to be quite good as well due to strong backstabbing with BBoD. However its low THAC0 makes it really dependent on Tenser. Shadowdancer/Fighter is strong as well (HLA shadow dancer ability which is an enhanced hardiness makes it really strong).
Blackguard: Its abilities are great (poison weapon on a warrior is insane), its disadvantages are not that annoying. Great character overall. The only unfortunate thing about it is that its unholy reaver is not even close to carsomyr (It still is decent thanks to dispel though). But it still is a very solid pick.
Sun soul monk: weaker than Dark Moon monk IMO. It is still a monk and therefore it is still strong (stronger than in the original game due to new monk items) , but dark moon monk is stronger.
Dark Moon Monk: really strong, its abilities are very very good for a monk: blur does get you quite low AC-wise (on a base -10 (monk base AC+18dex, with ring of gaxx, Ring of protection +3, dark moon cloak, some AC headgear, you are down to -21AC which is interesting even for ToB). Mirror image+ this is just insane, your enemy will need a long long time before starting to even hit you - long enough for you to kill them. Your cold touch is just a bread and butter ability. It is stackable, you have loads of uses. Of course it bypasses stoneskin. IMO dark moon monks really are the best new kit (considering new monk items)
Dragon disciple: much of a disappointment: I feel really short on spell all time. Their breath attack is good only for it bypasses magic resist. Meaning it is good only if you do not use the dragon breath spell. Who doesn't, except those who find it too cheesy? Its AC bonus are useless. A mage usually gets like -5AC. They get -9. Great, but it makes 0 difference for most enemies will hit you either way, and no one relies on AC as a mage. Fire resistance is not that interesting. I mean, if need be, you have tons of items to provide you fire resistance. Constitution only gives regeneration at a 1hp/turn rate. Basically useless (Except that rather than "slept for 24 days and 16hours till fully healed" you will have "slept for 1 day till fully healed"). None of this compensate the loss of one spellcast per spell level.
I have not tested dwarven defender. From what I have seen, it is quite strong.
Dwarven Defender
Shadowdancer
Blackguard
Sun soul monk
Dark moon monk
Dragon disciple
My opinion:
Shadowdancer is decent if you dual class him. Otherwise it is pretty bad. Like all thief kits though. As a dual class, it is strong when dualed with any other class. Permabackstab due to HIPS is strong as priest for priest has nice buffs (namely Righteous magic). I am still experimenting Shadowdancer/Mage. Looks to be quite good as well due to strong backstabbing with BBoD. However its low THAC0 makes it really dependent on Tenser. Shadowdancer/Fighter is strong as well (HLA shadow dancer ability which is an enhanced hardiness makes it really strong).
Blackguard: Its abilities are great (poison weapon on a warrior is insane), its disadvantages are not that annoying. Great character overall. The only unfortunate thing about it is that its unholy reaver is not even close to carsomyr (It still is decent thanks to dispel though). But it still is a very solid pick.
Sun soul monk: weaker than Dark Moon monk IMO. It is still a monk and therefore it is still strong (stronger than in the original game due to new monk items) , but dark moon monk is stronger.
Dark Moon Monk: really strong, its abilities are very very good for a monk: blur does get you quite low AC-wise (on a base -10 (monk base AC+18dex, with ring of gaxx, Ring of protection +3, dark moon cloak, some AC headgear, you are down to -21AC which is interesting even for ToB). Mirror image+ this is just insane, your enemy will need a long long time before starting to even hit you - long enough for you to kill them. Your cold touch is just a bread and butter ability. It is stackable, you have loads of uses. Of course it bypasses stoneskin. IMO dark moon monks really are the best new kit (considering new monk items)
Dragon disciple: much of a disappointment: I feel really short on spell all time. Their breath attack is good only for it bypasses magic resist. Meaning it is good only if you do not use the dragon breath spell. Who doesn't, except those who find it too cheesy? Its AC bonus are useless. A mage usually gets like -5AC. They get -9. Great, but it makes 0 difference for most enemies will hit you either way, and no one relies on AC as a mage. Fire resistance is not that interesting. I mean, if need be, you have tons of items to provide you fire resistance. Constitution only gives regeneration at a 1hp/turn rate. Basically useless (Except that rather than "slept for 24 days and 16hours till fully healed" you will have "slept for 1 day till fully healed"). None of this compensate the loss of one spellcast per spell level.
I have not tested dwarven defender. From what I have seen, it is quite strong.
4
Comments
I've played through the series with a Dragon Disciple for instance and I really didn't notice much of a difference with a vanilla sorcerer either way. Especially once you consider all the items you are granted (as well as HLA's I suppose) to boost the number of spells you can cast particularly in BG2EE. Also prior to you getting Improve Alacrity you are limited to one spell a round anyways and most places (especially in BG2EE) let you rest without having to worry about interruption (so access to spells isn't an issue). Once you can cast a single Time Stop and an Improved Alacrity any battle pretty much ends before an enemy is able to respond anyways, regardless of whether you are playing as a sorcerer or dragon disciple.
Ohh and the advantage with Breath Weapon is that you can use it to quickly disrupt magic resistant spellcasters long before you'll get access to Dragon's Breath and without worrying about them being immune to the spell (since it counts as a level 0 spell). Its especially useful against Liches as you can use it to stop them from using Time Stop. Due to an engine limitation technically even spellcasters who are immune to fire damage can have their spellcasting disrupted by it.
The one new class/kit that is arguably the strongest is Blackguard. They are in fact at least some competition for the old guard, with some fairly strong effects. Sadly, they cannot use the ONE reason to take a Paladin along: Carsomyr. They get their own version, yes, but it is not as good nor as easily accessible. A pity. Still, I'll give ol' Blacky another go or two.
@Lord_Tansheron : are you so sure about that? Is there anything that can outDPS a monk with righteous magic (which they can get now)? I really can't think of anything as strong as this.
Dwarven Defender: This thing is just a munchkin kit. Let's take a Fighter, give him a Barbarian's HP's, and then make him even tankier and harder to kill. For downsides, you lose one pip in hammers and such. It's more of a downside than Bioware gave some classes, but this kit is just wonk.
Blackguard: I really like this kit. I'd never play it though because Dorn is my favorite of the EE introduced characters and fit's the kit perfectly. Plus, Inquisitor or bust when it comes to Paladin kits. (With SCS rebalancing or Kit Revisions. Vanilla Inquisitor is as bent as the D.Defender.) If I did make a Charname from the new classes, I'd probably go this way. Doesn't hurt that Item Revisions made the Unholy Reaver basically the Evil Carsomyr, so I'd have that going for me.
Shadowdancer: Incredibly interesting translation from PnP to video game, with interesting HLA's and Shadowstep is fun to play with. The class overall isn't that great, and begs to be dual'd out of pretty much costing you the neat HLA's, and leaving you as a limited assassin with neat-o Shadow powers twice(ish) a day. I don't like using Shadowkeeper for anything but bugs, so going a Shadowdancer/Other multi-class just isn't in the cards for me, even though it would fix a lot of it's problems. I should do a start-to-finish run of the trilogy as this and see if my opinion changes as I really want to like this kit.
Dragon Disciple: Not worth it imo. Sorc is my favorite class in the game and I was so psyched to see we were finally getting a kit for them. I have no desire to play this kit. I don't like the implementation of Dragon Disciple into the game, and what I have to trade spell-slots for doesn't interest me at all. I do like the theme of a Dragonblooded Bhaalspawn PC, I just don't like this kit. Maybe there's some mods that would change my opinion on it.
Monks: I've never been a fan of Monks in PnP or video games. It's nothing against what Beamdog did, it's just not for me personally. I know they have a good fanbase in the BG series, I'm just not one of them so I didn't enjoy this class in BG1 at all (I especially didn't like how they just loaded up Rasaad with gear to cover up how crap Monks are at low-level) and I've had no desire to try them in BG2.
So I like the Blackguard and Shadowdancer. Not a fan of the DDis and DDef, and have nothing (good or bad) to say on Monks as they just aren't for me.
And I want more. Additional kits in the Adventure Y. And I mean not only Priest of Tempus and Priest of Tyr from IWDEE but actual new kits. Something for a bard or for a druid.
Both the monk kits are great but they aren't all that more powerful than the standard monk. Their abilities are good trade-offs. Monks get an ability bonus of 14 more AC at lvl 35 anyway. Which is mentined nowhere but it happens nevertheless. So you can get your monk to -20 AC even without any gear.
Dragon Disciple is awesome. You get more hp (hit dice is d6 instead of d4 on the standard sorc), more AC, more Con (up to 23 I think, with hell trials and MoLtM), a breath weapon and a Fire immunity. This leaves you more open on gear choices. So what if there's 9 less total spell uses per day?
If we're going to talk about overpowered, the vanilla Sorcerer is number one, since day one of BG2 too.
This own doesn't even need a casting stat, unlike 3E.
While the Blackguard is powerful, the Inquisitor destroys mages, paired with Carsormyr. His Dispel is actually even more powerful than in PnP.
In ADnD it's supposed to be only 1.5x, not 2x.
By the way, the Shadowdancer is a defensive class in 3E and it's a defensive class here.
It doesn't have Poison Weapon or tons of Backstab or THAC0 bonuses like the Swashbuckler.
But it can survive better than them.
He can Hide in Plain Sight all the time, making it a great survivalist or scout or thief or even backstabber that instead of doing one huge backstab, it delivers it in parts and he can do that all day.
Plus Shadow Jump which puts him out of harm's way.
In 3E, the Shadowdancer gets no Sneak Attack (Backstab) bonus. It is used purely for evasion, stealth and getting you out of trouble.
>If we're going to talk about overpowered, the vanilla Sorcerer is number one, since day one of BG2 too.
Well, yes, probably it can be phrased this way as well (though I'd prefer something along the lines of: "the limitations of Infinity Engine games are such that arcane casters generally perform much better than any other class"). That wasn't my point anyway, though.
You can be a Rogue (Thief) Shadowdancer, a Monk Shadowdancer, a Ranger Shadowdancer or even Bard Shadowdancer.
But the class itself has no offensive abilities. No sneak attack or offensive spells. Just Hide in Plain Sight, illusions etc.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Shadowdancer
Not to mention that their fist damage is somewhat deceptive. 1d20 looks like a lot, but it's actually only 1.5 average damage points higher than a +5 longsword (11 avg dmg vs. 9.5). And then there's the weapon proficiency bonuses, which push things even further.
Meaning 21strength(18+2(hell)+1(MoLtM)+ this gives them 24 strength:
Fist is 25 damage
Gauntlet of crushing: +4
Strength: +12
Which makes 41 damage per attack. Improved to 43 with a strength potion Devastating when combined to whirlwind.
Basically, in a single run, with mind focusing potion, a dark moon monk can have, wearing this gear:
Seldarine amulet
Ring of Gaxx
Ring of protection+3
Cloak of the dark moon (second OP item from rasaad quest, basically a cloak of protection+2 that does not interfere with other protection gear. But that s not enough: Twice a day, you have a 4hour long immunity to magic damage)
Some +1 AC headgear (which you swap with headband of the devout just the time to cast Righteous magic)
100%magic resistance (78base+ 20 on gear+5 (MoLtM))
-24 AC (which is quite decent with mirror image even in ToB, considering you can wear a specific AC girdle, I did not pick a strength girdle, that gets you down to -28 against any weapon type, enough to be unhittable except by crits by any ToB enemy)
And still insane damage
Which are the very reasons why I consider Dark Moon Monk as OP.
Note that if you really want to, you can take ring of protection +2 and take strength rather than ring of protection +3 from the deck of many things.
It will just get your AC down by 1 (still -23global /27 with girdle), and give you 22strength (25 with righteous magic)
Unless I am mistaken, the lowest enemy THAC0 is -8, shared only by Demogorgon and Abazigal. Which means only them could hit you without a 20 dice roll, and both would still need a 19 roll. Even enemies who crits with 19 dice roll would hit you once every ten roll. With monk's decent HP (and the additionnal 25 from Hell+ DoMT) and mirror image it is hardly possible to get you down
And it's worth pointing out that the Monk has to sacrifice Hardiness to get GWW.
But it's also worth pointing out that not casting IH on a Monk frees up a 6th-level spell slot for PFMW, Pierce Magic, or IH on another character.
There are tradeoffs all over the place. Monks are hard to compare with fighters, since their powers are so dissimilar. I'd say Monks are simply the more defensive option: they do less damage, but they're less likely to get disabled or die.
Letting some enemies kite a DD in Defensive Stance would make the kit more balanced. But then, if we're going to balance out the kits, I usually prefer to strengthen weak classes rather than weaken strong classes. And it wouldn't be much fun to get kited by faster characters.
Hmm, may I remind you of the HLAs that grant you 10APR for one round? As you will need no other abilities ( critical strike would be less worth, and ( @semiticgod ) hardiness unneeded as you won't ever be hit) you will have a fair amount of these
By the way read to the end: Enemy lowest THAC0 is -8, maybe a bit lower for some enemy archer, but you do have a natural trumendous bonus against missile weapon as a monk . I must agree that having an AC between -10 and -20 will not actually change a lot of things. But beyond -20 it does matter, it really does. Like I said, no enemy is able to hit you even with their "ridiculously low THAC0", just because your AC is beyond ridiculously low.
Dwarven Defender (I suggest we shorten them with DDef rathar than just DD not to confuse with Dragon Disciple) are certainly outrageously strong for BG1 and quite a big part of SoA, but as it has already been said, in the end mages can be more tanky, and even DDef apparently huge tankiness may appear not to be that good in ToB.
As an alternative to dual classed kensai->mage
As for the GWW debate: sure you can use GWW to push your APR. You lose out on another HLA and an action for the turn you activate it, plus you're limited by the uses you have available. IH on the other hand lasts MUCH longer and can be combined with other HLAs for even MORE effect (Critical Strike mostly, which will increase damage even against crit-immune enemies by granting 100% hit chance). And that's just the APR side of things, and not talking about weapon effects like the +STR bonuses of CFae or Angurvadal, elemental damage to pierce SS, etc. Not to mention that a Fighter hybrid will also have a tremendous advantage over a Monk because of the second class, whatever it be.
I'm not saying Monks are "bad" or anything like that. I don't like to make blanket judgments. It's just that for a physical melee DPS, they have less throughput and less utility than alternatives.
Two castings of GWW can give you an extra 10 APR over 2 rounds. That's not bad. But two castings of Hardiness will make any fighter nearly invincible, for 9 rounds. Since that allows you to live longer and continue fighting longer, that translates to an extra 27-45 APR.
GWW is excellent at breaking through Stoneskin and interrupting spells. But Hardiness is an extremely useful ability, and though I agree AC is indeed underrated among the BG2 community, it's not going to negate the utility of Hardiness. Hardiness is still a big deal.