Problem is that Coran comes in so late in game. He's better but far less useful, although his class is very interesting.
Also, Coran is a happier dude, with good reason. I like happy! If I want happy, I'd go with Coran, Imoen, Xzar, Minsc, Alora... which lacks some healing. If I want bothered/sad, I'd go with Kagain, Kivan, Quayle, Xan, Edwin... which is remarkably kind of a good party XD
Kivan, Coran, and Khalid are all the best archers at different points in the game.
Kivan is better than Khalid until Khalid reaches level 6 when he gets *** in bows. From there, he levels up faster than Kivan and is always slightly better than him.
When you eventually get to him, Coran is better than both Kivan and Khalid. However, they get an extra half attack earlier than him, which closes the gap temporarily. Coran regains top spot when he gets to level 7.
All other NPC's have something holding them back from being good archers, whether it's proficiency, dexterity, race, or a combination of those things.
Well, I usually have both Kivan and Coran in the party. Even in BG2 with the Kivan and Coran mods. So, I'm torn between the two. So, I'm just going to pick Kivan because you can romance him in BG2 with the Kivan and Deheriana mod.. Hah.
Kivan is a thousand times a better archer than Coran.
Why? 18 strength, therefore the ability to use Composite Long Bows.
Nah, Coran gets +2 extra to damage from proficiency. So every bow Coran uses is a automatically a composite. And the best bows in BG are longbow and shortbow anyways.
(1) In vanilla BG1, Coran can't reach L7 in Fighter, and so remains at 2.5 attacks with a bow, while Kivan can reach 3 attacks at L7. Even in TotSC, Coran gets that extra attack around 50,000 xp later than Kivan.
(2) Kivan has Favored Enemy Ogre, which gives him +4 to hit and damage against Half-Ogres, Ogrillons, Ogres, Ogre Berserkers, and Ogre Magi, which are some of the most threatening opponents in the game. He can effectively solo them with this feature.
In terms of non-ogre battles, Coran deals 1 extra damage and has 2 better thaco. Against Ogres, Kivan deals 3 extra damage, and has 2 better thaco. That being said, Coran is great for other things, such as triple backstab, which can be enhanced by a strength potion or the gauntlets of ogre power.
Nah, Coran gets +2 extra to damage from proficiency. So every bow Coran uses is a automatically a composite. And the best bows in BG are longbow and shortbow anyways.
He only gets +1 damage (and +2 THAC0) due to his third proficiency point.
If BG:EE is running out of the Baldur's Gate 2 engine, it remains to be seen if it uses BG1 or BG2 values. If it uses BG2 values, it's literally only a single +1 THAC0.
Also remember that magic bows only add to THAC0. A regular Composite Longbow will always do more damage than a shortbow/longbow.
Coran is a great NPC. I rather like him except that Dexterity is the only stat he draws any bonuses from. I just think Kivan is superior as an archer, mostly because you can pick him up in the second area of the game simply by talking to him. And composite longbows.
@fighter_mage_thief: Strength modifiers do not play into backstab damage rolls, IIRC.
I also think there are better choices for the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Coran is going to stay at range most of the time, so I'd rather give them to someone like Khalid. That's always down to personal opinion, though.
Oops, yes my mistake i confused it with thac0 bonus. But anyways weapons we have in BG1 are Long Bow of Marksmanship is +3 ToHit +2 damage Composite Longbow +1 is +2 ToHit +3 damage Eagle Shortbow +2 ToHit +2 damage
Even with BG2 values a 3 pips longbow is better than a 2pip composite. Damage bonus is right on them, i guess they didnt have the time to properly implement bow properties, all this mighty stuff and all. Having a "composite" attribute is literally of no value in bg1/2, just a cool name. Well technically it is there right on the bow, thus a simple +1 bow has such bonuses.
Kivan at 161xp: level 8 warrior 13 base +1 thac0 from race +2 thac0 from Dex 18 +1 thac0 from Bow Specialization +2 thac0 from archer bracers +2 thaco from composite bow +1
+2 damage from Bow Specialization +3 damage from composite bow +1 ===
Coran at 161xp: level 7 warrior multi-class 14 base +1 thac0 from race +4 thac0 from Dex 21 +2 thac0 from Bow Mastery +2 thac0 from archer bracers +3 thaco from LBoM
+2 damage from Bow Mastery. +2 damage from LBoM ==
Used Coran in my last playthrough, and while Kivan is nice as a backup hand-to-hand man, Coran is a thief as well and is just way cooler, especially his encounter in Baldur's Gate
Mathematically, Coran is the superior archer. @Moomintroll presents the math.
Now, if you want to argue who is the best character, that's a wide open debate, and one Kivan could easily win. 1. Kivan has the strength and HP to go melee, whereas Coran does not. 2. Coran thief class is also kind of redundant, as @Quartz points out. You find Coran in Cloakwood. What are the odds you got there without a thief already? 3. Coran cannot be easily customized as you get him at such a high level, as @Roller12 points out. He's likely to be behind your party in XP since the game does not XP match, too.
@sandmanCCL: The longbow of Marksmanship (+3 to hit/+2 to damage) does not require strength, so Coran can easily use it. You can't get Coran without getting this bow first, as the bow is found in the bandit camp and Coran is found in Cloakwood. You will also find the Eagle Bow shortly afterwards, which is also usable for Coran if you're playing vanilla BG1 (where Bow is one weapon group). Effectively his strength is not a handicap to his archery.
Thank God, no. I'm not going to lie, I get a little tired of people telling me they're better archers. Technically yes, if you pick them up ASAP and spend the entire rest of the game trying to get them as good, then by the end of the game, they will be better. ...And then what do you have left, Durlag's Tower. I just don't see the point, that's all.
Ah, so we mean who is the most playable rather than who is the best. Fair enough.
Yeah, that's kind of up to interpretation; if you ask me, the grind up to a high level is more important than when you're there. Because by the time you are debating over whether a 5 or 7 THAC0 is better, your characters are hitting basically everything all the time anyway.
As far as bows go: Eagle Bow is +2 to hit/+2 to damage, Longbow of Marksmanship is +3 to hit/+2 to damage, and the Composite Long Bow +1 is +2 to hit/+3 to damage. I don't know about you guys, but I personally emphasize damage over THAC0, especially when we are talking about two excellent archers who basically aren't going to miss a shot anyway. And as I said before, BG:EE will use the BG2 engine so Coran won't be able to wield the Composite +1.
The thief class may seem redundant, but Coran makes for a sweet replacement for Imoen when you dual-class her (the sweet spot for that coincides quite well with the point where you get Coran). His skills - even though you get him late - are more than enough for the whole rest of the game, and he can also dish out some serious hurting, unlike other thieves.
I could have sworn none of the magical bows added to damage. Must only apply to generics like "Longbow +1"
Shows even Metaface McGee over here still has a lot of little things to learn.
If we're going for theoretical end-game only, level cap only, then Shar-Teel enters the discussion. Just saying. She's the best evil-aligned archer by base stats if you focus all the spec points you'd gain with her into archery, though one can argue for Eldoth because his poison arrow ability is pretty amazing (and for that reason alone).
Mathematically superior does not always mean "best." It's such a subjective term. I'd rather take a guy I can get early who's going to be a bigger benefit for my team in the long run than someone who is largely redundant by the time you pick him up.
If we're going for theoretical end-game only, level cap only, then Shar-Teel enters the discussion. Just saying. She's the best evil-aligned archer by base stats if you focus all the spec points you'd gain with her into archery, though one can argue for Eldoth because his poison arrow ability is pretty amazing (and for that reason alone).
Theoretical end-game ... that's tough. Either Khalid or Shar-Teel. If you pick her up ASAP and give her all the proficiencies, she ends up with 3 in Bows but Khalid starts with 1 in Bows so you could get him up to 4. But Shar-Teel has a better Dexterity by one point. No idea who would win there.
Mathematically superior does not always mean "best." It's such a subjective term. I'd rather take a guy I can get early who's going to be a bigger benefit for my team in the long run than someone who is largely redundant by the time you pick him up.
And this is why Kivan is the best. Yes you can get Khalid, Shar-Teel, and Coran all better by the end but even when you pick Kivan up and he's only Level 2 he's already rocking a solid THAC0.
lol, metaface mcgee - now that's a good one. Well, I meant he was mathematically superior at archery, which was the discussion at hand. Like I said, if we open it up to who is a better character, I strongly prefer Kivan and take him pretty much every time.
I was just about to say the pool should add another option for Shar-Teel after our last discussion. Shar-teel effectively would be a better bow user than Kivan, assuming you get to mod her profs.
I just looked over the OP again and it does indeed say "best," and the creator of the thread says second post in "Who's your favorite?" as a clarification to the poll.
I just wish you got Coran OUTSIDE of Cloakwood. You meet him AFTER the most difficult part of that entire forest area, too, the part where you basically need a thief. If you could get him, let's say at the Friendly Arm or Beregost, I'd be all over using him just about every game. He's also a natural fit for The Defender AND the Mithril Chain +4. Who doesn't like generating their own mini-Drizzt?
If Coran was evil-aligned, I'd probably use him more simply because he'd fit in very well with what is otherwise the weakest part of an evil-aligned group, the thief.
@SandmanCCL: Love the new portrait...and yeah I agree. There's a mod I think which makes it possible to enter Cloakwood before the bandit camp. I always sneak in and get him. It's dangerous, but that's part of the fun.
If Coran was evil-aligned, I'd probably use him more simply because he'd fit in very well with what is otherwise the weakest part of an evil-aligned group, the thief.
Monty's pretty good so long as you pick him up early so he doesn't mess up his thieving abilities.
I like Montaron a lot, don't get me wrong. But he's merely "decent" at best, and again even though I like him, you're forced to bring Xzar. If I'm rolling an evil party I'm already bringing Edwin, because Edwin.
Other than that, you're stuck with any of the other sub-par neutral thieves, or a dual-classed Shar-Teel. But if you dual-class Shar-Teel, you can't utilize her as a mega archer which I much prefer to do. If you could get Eldoth and Skie earlier, they'd be a viable pair for an evil party but as is they come way too late to be useful.
I like Montaron a lot, don't get me wrong. But he's merely "decent" at best, and again even though I like him, you're forced to bring Xzar. If I'm rolling an evil party I'm already bringing Edwin, because Edwin.
Other than that, you're stuck with any of the other sub-par neutral thieves, or a dual-classed Shar-Teel. But if you dual-class Shar-Teel, you can't utilize her as a mega archer which I much prefer to do. If you could get Eldoth and Skie earlier, they'd be a viable pair for an evil party but as is they come way too late to be useful.
No one is forcing you to bring Xzar. Get him killed immediately. Heck, you can do it yourself haha. And don't say "but, but roleplay!" Mr. Metaface McGee. ;D
Kivan - because he's an elf who sounds like Clint Eastwood.
The final battle should feature Kivan saying to Tazok, "I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire 60 arrows or only 59?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a Composite Long Bow +1, the most powerful longbow in the Sword Coast, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"
@fighter_mage_thief: Strength modifiers do not play into backstab damage rolls, IIRC.
I also think there are better choices for the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Coran is going to stay at range most of the time, so I'd rather give them to someone like Khalid. That's always down to personal opinion, though.
Actually, from my experience in vanilla BG1, strength does play into backstab damage. This may have been changed later, but all I know is that I could hit for 60 on a backstab, and 120 on a backstab crit with only a dual classed 3Ftr/6Thf, and have a screenshot of it too, which I've uploaded.
I uploaded a backstab crit from BG2 as well, and think it was normalized by that time. But I don't recall extensively testing backstab in BG2, and the screenshots are old.
By the way, the character did have *** in Large Swords. One thing I like about that character is that at 14,000 xp, that fighter/thief build is basically complete in BG1. The xp could be turned off right there, and it would make little difference.
My favourite BG moment is when I had Kivan deliver the killing blow to Tazok....via a Backstab. I had modded him to be a Stalker. I felt it suited his voice set and thirst for vengeance. ha ha, glad I'm not the only one who noticed the Clint Eastwood bit.
I think strength does affect backstab in vanilla BG1. Fighter_mage_thief is likely right...even though curiously his character appears just to be a fighter/thief with 4 int.
But yeah it does appear strength is being taken into effect for BG1. Must be BG2 that removed it, because that's actually the way it's supposed to work even in AD&D if I recall correctly. I am much more familiar with 3rd Ed even with all of the playtime I've given the BG saga over the years.
But yeah it does appear strength is being taken into effect for BG1. Must be BG2 that removed it, because that's actually the way it's supposed to work even in AD&D if I recall correctly. I am much more familiar with 3rd Ed even with all of the playtime I've given the BG saga over the years.
Ya well, no worries, there's plenty of conflicting views around here about the "BG1 rules" because so many people use BGTuTu. I believe you are right, and that in BG:EE the strength modifier in backstabs will be gone (as it runs the BG2 engine ... same as TuTu).
But yeah it does appear strength is being taken into effect for BG1. Must be BG2 that removed it, because that's actually the way it's supposed to work even in AD&D if I recall correctly. I am much more familiar with 3rd Ed even with all of the playtime I've given the BG saga over the years.
At the time I didn't take an inventory screenshot and no longer have it installed : ( but if you check out the screenshots, I'm equipped with Varscona, the +2 longsword. That being said, I would prefer if strength damage isn't multiplied, since it's pretty overpowered, and since backstab does good damage regardless.
I also forgot about Tazok. Yet another good use for Kivan's favored enemy.
There are not two but three NPCs who fight for the title of best Archer. I know a lot of people seem to dislike Khalid, but he's a fantastic archer: single class fighter who gets 3* in Bows and has a decent DEX. Actually all three have their strong and weak points. Here are the THAC0 bonuses at the max level of TotSC:
As you see, Khalid is actually better than Kivan, since they both hit equally good, but Khalid does more damage due to more proficiency points. Plus Khalid has the most HP of the 3. In the end all three are very good archers .
Comments
Ahahahahahahah you gave the BEST REASON EVER XD XD
Also, Coran is a happier dude, with good reason. I like happy!
If I want happy, I'd go with Coran, Imoen, Xzar, Minsc, Alora... which lacks some healing.
If I want bothered/sad, I'd go with Kagain, Kivan, Quayle, Xan, Edwin... which is remarkably kind of a good party XD
Kivan is better than Khalid until Khalid reaches level 6 when he gets *** in bows. From there, he levels up faster than Kivan and is always slightly better than him.
When you eventually get to him, Coran is better than both Kivan and Khalid. However, they get an extra half attack earlier than him, which closes the gap temporarily. Coran regains top spot when he gets to level 7.
All other NPC's have something holding them back from being good archers, whether it's proficiency, dexterity, race, or a combination of those things.
(1) In vanilla BG1, Coran can't reach L7 in Fighter, and so remains at 2.5 attacks with a bow, while Kivan can reach 3 attacks at L7. Even in TotSC, Coran gets that extra attack around 50,000 xp later than Kivan.
(2) Kivan has Favored Enemy Ogre, which gives him +4 to hit and damage against Half-Ogres, Ogrillons, Ogres, Ogre Berserkers, and Ogre Magi, which are some of the most threatening opponents in the game. He can effectively solo them with this feature.
In terms of non-ogre battles, Coran deals 1 extra damage and has 2 better thaco. Against Ogres, Kivan deals 3 extra damage, and has 2 better thaco. That being said, Coran is great for other things, such as triple backstab, which can be enhanced by a strength potion or the gauntlets of ogre power.
http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts#Proficiency_Benefits
If BG:EE is running out of the Baldur's Gate 2 engine, it remains to be seen if it uses BG1 or BG2 values. If it uses BG2 values, it's literally only a single +1 THAC0.
Also remember that magic bows only add to THAC0. A regular Composite Longbow will always do more damage than a shortbow/longbow.
Coran is a great NPC. I rather like him except that Dexterity is the only stat he draws any bonuses from. I just think Kivan is superior as an archer, mostly because you can pick him up in the second area of the game simply by talking to him. And composite longbows.
@fighter_mage_thief: Strength modifiers do not play into backstab damage rolls, IIRC.
I also think there are better choices for the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Coran is going to stay at range most of the time, so I'd rather give them to someone like Khalid. That's always down to personal opinion, though.
Long Bow of Marksmanship is +3 ToHit +2 damage
Composite Longbow +1 is +2 ToHit +3 damage
Eagle Shortbow +2 ToHit +2 damage
Even with BG2 values a 3 pips longbow is better than a 2pip composite. Damage bonus is right on them, i guess they didnt have the time to properly implement bow properties, all this mighty stuff and all. Having a "composite" attribute is literally of no value in bg1/2, just a cool name. Well technically it is there right on the bow, thus a simple +1 bow has such bonuses.
Kivan at 161xp: level 8 warrior
13 base
+1 thac0 from race
+2 thac0 from Dex 18
+1 thac0 from Bow Specialization
+2 thac0 from archer bracers
+2 thaco from composite bow +1
+2 damage from Bow Specialization
+3 damage from composite bow +1
===
Coran at 161xp: level 7 warrior multi-class
14 base
+1 thac0 from race
+4 thac0 from Dex 21
+2 thac0 from Bow Mastery
+2 thac0 from archer bracers
+3 thaco from LBoM
+2 damage from Bow Mastery.
+2 damage from LBoM
==
Kivan: +5 Thac0 +5 damage ( in bg1 +5 Thac0 +5 damage)
Coran: +2 Thac0 +4 damage ( in bg1 +1 Thac0 +5 damage)
Now, if you want to argue who is the best character, that's a wide open debate, and one Kivan could easily win.
1. Kivan has the strength and HP to go melee, whereas Coran does not.
2. Coran thief class is also kind of redundant, as @Quartz points out. You find Coran in Cloakwood. What are the odds you got there without a thief already?
3. Coran cannot be easily customized as you get him at such a high level, as @Roller12 points out. He's likely to be behind your party in XP since the game does not XP match, too.
@sandmanCCL: The longbow of Marksmanship (+3 to hit/+2 to damage) does not require strength, so Coran can easily use it. You can't get Coran without getting this bow first, as the bow is found in the bandit camp and Coran is found in Cloakwood. You will also find the Eagle Bow shortly afterwards, which is also usable for Coran if you're playing vanilla BG1 (where Bow is one weapon group). Effectively his strength is not a handicap to his archery.
As far as bows go: Eagle Bow is +2 to hit/+2 to damage, Longbow of Marksmanship is +3 to hit/+2 to damage, and the Composite Long Bow +1 is +2 to hit/+3 to damage. I don't know about you guys, but I personally emphasize damage over THAC0, especially when we are talking about two excellent archers who basically aren't going to miss a shot anyway. And as I said before, BG:EE will use the BG2 engine so Coran won't be able to wield the Composite +1.
Shows even Metaface McGee over here still has a lot of little things to learn.
If we're going for theoretical end-game only, level cap only, then Shar-Teel enters the discussion. Just saying. She's the best evil-aligned archer by base stats if you focus all the spec points you'd gain with her into archery, though one can argue for Eldoth because his poison arrow ability is pretty amazing (and for that reason alone).
Mathematically superior does not always mean "best." It's such a subjective term. I'd rather take a guy I can get early who's going to be a bigger benefit for my team in the long run than someone who is largely redundant by the time you pick him up.
I was just about to say the pool should add another option for Shar-Teel after our last discussion. Shar-teel effectively would be a better bow user than Kivan, assuming you get to mod her profs.
I just wish you got Coran OUTSIDE of Cloakwood. You meet him AFTER the most difficult part of that entire forest area, too, the part where you basically need a thief. If you could get him, let's say at the Friendly Arm or Beregost, I'd be all over using him just about every game. He's also a natural fit for The Defender AND the Mithril Chain +4. Who doesn't like generating their own mini-Drizzt?
If Coran was evil-aligned, I'd probably use him more simply because he'd fit in very well with what is otherwise the weakest part of an evil-aligned group, the thief.
Other than that, you're stuck with any of the other sub-par neutral thieves, or a dual-classed Shar-Teel. But if you dual-class Shar-Teel, you can't utilize her as a mega archer which I much prefer to do. If you could get Eldoth and Skie earlier, they'd be a viable pair for an evil party but as is they come way too late to be useful.
Check out the pics at http://s1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh493/fighter_mage_thief/
I uploaded a backstab crit from BG2 as well, and think it was normalized by that time. But I don't recall extensively testing backstab in BG2, and the screenshots are old.
By the way, the character did have *** in Large Swords. One thing I like about that character is that at 14,000 xp, that fighter/thief build is basically complete in BG1. The xp could be turned off right there, and it would make little difference.
I think strength does affect backstab in vanilla BG1. Fighter_mage_thief is likely right...even though curiously his character appears just to be a fighter/thief with 4 int.
But yeah it does appear strength is being taken into effect for BG1. Must be BG2 that removed it, because that's actually the way it's supposed to work even in AD&D if I recall correctly. I am much more familiar with 3rd Ed even with all of the playtime I've given the BG saga over the years.
I also forgot about Tazok. Yet another good use for Kivan's favored enemy.
Actually all three have their strong and weak points.
Here are the THAC0 bonuses at the max level of TotSC:
Coran
6 (Lv 7 Fighter) + 1 (Elf) + 3 (20 Dex) + 3 (3* in Bows) = 13
Khalid
7 (Lv 8 Fighter) + 1 (16 Dex) + 3 (3* in Bows) = 11
Kivan
7 (Lv 8 Ranger) + 1 (Elf) + 2 (17 Dex) + 1 (2* in Bows) = 11
As you see, Khalid is actually better than Kivan, since they both hit equally good, but Khalid does more damage due to more proficiency points. Plus Khalid has the most HP of the 3.
In the end all three are very good archers