@hansolo That's sorta true, but the problem is you have to wait until late game for Khalid to match the other two.
Kivan and Coran are good "out of box," ie they're effective the second they first join your party.
That's not true of Khalid, who starts, iirc, with one star in bows in the original game. He has to reach level six -- mid to late game -- to match Kivan and approach Coran.
As early as level 3 he gains his second point in Bows and then he just rules with a Composite Bow. Sure Kivan is great but not that much better. And when you finally reach Coran if you don't rush, Khalid is developed already as well. In the end it's more a flavor thing, really. I personally, like Khalid, but the other NPCs will do as well
@hansolo That's sorta true, but the problem is you have to wait until late game for Khalid to match the other two.
Kivan and Coran are good "out of box," ie they're effective the second they first join your party.
That's not true of Khalid, who starts, iirc, with one star in bows in the original game. He has to reach level six -- mid to late game -- to match Kivan and approach Coran.
As early as level 3 he gains his second point in Bows and then he just rules with a Composite Bow. Sure Kivan is great but not that much better. And when you finally reach Coran if you don't rush, Khalid is developed already as well. In the end it's more a flavor thing, really. I personally, like Khalid, but the other NPCs will do as well
The Composite Long Bows have a STR requirement that Khalid doesn't meet, so he can't use them. From memory, the best he can do is the Longbow of Marksmanship, which you don't get until the Bandit Camp. At that point, you're a map or two away from picking up Coran.
Kivan and Coran also get +hit bonuses as elves for wielding bows, which Khalid doesn't get (he's a half-elf).
Crunching the numbers, both Kivan and Khalid are better archers for a longer period of the game than Khalid, because of those combined bonuses (from weapons and racials). This is on top of the weapon proficiency advantage they have over him at low levels.
Khalid is decent, but my issue with him is that every role he can fill (melee, ranged, tanking, etc), another NPC can do better and sooner than he can.
True. Only problem with that is you can't get those boots until *after* you finish the Nashkel mines. And the mines is where you'd most want them (especially if you don't have the Gauntlets of DEX already too).
Shar-Teel - (You can get her up to) 2 Bow Pips - Strength Requirement for Composites - 17 Dex
Khalid - (You can get him up to) 3 Bow Pips - 16 Dex
Clear winner here is Coran from a pure number crunching standpoint. Biggest issue with him is, being a multi-class means he doesn't get his extra attack per round for a very long time. Shar-Teel and Khalid get it at 64k exp, Kivan at 75k exp. Coran wouldn't get his until having 128k overall experience. Yikes.
And then of course we have to consider (but thankfully, in a couple months we won't have to!) whether someone is playing ToTSC or TuTu. In ToTSC, there's no strength requirement. Khalid and Coran can run around with Composites all they want. In ToTSC, getting beyond 2 pips actually f#$%ing matters as opposed to TuTu. (Unless you have True Grandmastery mod installed)
-------
Of course, I'm sure it's noticeable that although I'm basically calling Coran the best here, I voted Kivan. This is because Kivan is so much more versatile. Yes he's not quite as good of an archer as Coran, but he's fantastic as well, and on top of it he can hold his own in melee combat. As far as Fighters go, Coran is pretty awful at melee combat.
@Quartz Wait, that's true? Composites had no STR restriction in the original game? What the hell was I talking about then?
@Amadarial One last aside: The AC bonus from the Girdle of Piercing (+3) and Boots of Avoidance (+5) stacks as Quartz notes, but it's only +8 total, which means getting to that -15 AC would take some doing. Most of the enemy archers aren't hitting you that once your AC drops below -5 anyway, I've found.
Even with a dexterity of 10, if you're wearing full plate and a large shield, kobolds will likely need a 20 to hit you, with the exception of the commandos.
The problem is that you can run into five or more kobolds in a single encounter, and each archer will have two attacks.
The same applies to bandits.
With ten or more attacks coming in every six seconds, you will get crit on average at least once every second round.
@Quartz Yea I just can't keep track of what items are natural or what are modded anymore :P...
@Brude -15 vs Ranged isn't to to hard to get depending on class, usually do that combo for my mages, combined with lvl 1 shield spell, makes them less vulnerable to archer disruption, specially when stuff like Mirror Image and Stone Skin are added...
and wow...BG:EE will be interesting, be like playing the game for the first time all over again, figuring out where everything drops again, etc lol
I'll take the grouchy ranger over the dead-beat dad pretty much every time just on personalities - I have always maintained that if you set them against the same enemies with the same basic equipment there would not be enough difference in the outcomes to matter one way or the other.
@Quartz Wait, that's true? Composites had no STR restriction in the original game? What the hell was I talking about then?
Yeah, believe it or not in the original game Composites could be used by all. There weren't any Strength Restrictions for anything, in fact. So when people started saying that Quayle couldn't use the Flail he had a prof in, I was like, what? Since when? Then I was like oh... they're playing TuTu.
Coran IMO. Give him drizzt's armor (hehe I killed the bastard with a metric sh*t-ton of summons, "legitly" no lake trick) and he can still use his thief skills while in armor.
Coran IMO. Give him drizzt's armor (hehe I killed the bastard with a metric sh*t-ton of summons, "legitly" no lake trick) and he can still use his thief skills while in armor.
Same goes for Montaron. That armor is godly for Fighter/Thieves.
Kivan is really cool. But as an archer Coran's 20 dex coupled with the gauntlets of Ogre power = awesome killing power.
There is no strength bonus with bows. That said yes, Coran + Gauntlets of Ogre Power is awesome because then he can actually perform in melee combat worth a damn. But the way you worded your post I'm not sure that's what you meant.
Damn, my bad, told you its been years since I played BG. That being said I still maintain he is the best archer.
Easy to forget details, no worries. Yeah, Coran's pretty freakin' awesome alright. I prefer Kivan as a party member just because he's more versatile, but strictly speaking Coran is indeed a better archer.
Comments
All those randomly encountered, nicely characterized people out to kill you really is one of the biggest strong points of Baldur's Gate.
Sure Kivan is great but not that much better.
And when you finally reach Coran if you don't rush, Khalid is developed already as well.
In the end it's more a flavor thing, really. I personally, like Khalid, but the other NPCs will do as well
Kivan and Coran also get +hit bonuses as elves for wielding bows, which Khalid doesn't get (he's a half-elf).
Crunching the numbers, both Kivan and Khalid are better archers for a longer period of the game than Khalid, because of those combined bonuses (from weapons and racials). This is on top of the weapon proficiency advantage they have over him at low levels.
Khalid is decent, but my issue with him is that every role he can fill (melee, ranged, tanking, etc), another NPC can do better and sooner than he can.
Nothing like having something like a -15 or so AC vs Ranged attacks....lol
Granted some of that is probably modded, playing BG:EE will be so so weird...
Coran - 3 Bow Pips - Elf Bonus - 20 Dex
Shar-Teel - (You can get her up to) 2 Bow Pips - Strength Requirement for Composites - 17 Dex
Khalid - (You can get him up to) 3 Bow Pips - 16 Dex
Clear winner here is Coran from a pure number crunching standpoint. Biggest issue with him is, being a multi-class means he doesn't get his extra attack per round for a very long time. Shar-Teel and Khalid get it at 64k exp, Kivan at 75k exp. Coran wouldn't get his until having 128k overall experience. Yikes.
And then of course we have to consider (but thankfully, in a couple months we won't have to!) whether someone is playing ToTSC or TuTu. In ToTSC, there's no strength requirement. Khalid and Coran can run around with Composites all they want. In ToTSC, getting beyond 2 pips actually f#$%ing matters as opposed to TuTu. (Unless you have True Grandmastery mod installed)
-------
Of course, I'm sure it's noticeable that although I'm basically calling Coran the best here, I voted Kivan. This is because Kivan is so much more versatile. Yes he's not quite as good of an archer as Coran, but he's fantastic as well, and on top of it he can hold his own in melee combat. As far as Fighters go, Coran is pretty awful at melee combat. Nope, that ain't modded. Always has stacked.
@Amadarial One last aside: The AC bonus from the Girdle of Piercing (+3) and Boots of Avoidance (+5) stacks as Quartz notes, but it's only +8 total, which means getting to that -15 AC would take some doing. Most of the enemy archers aren't hitting you that once your AC drops below -5 anyway, I've found.
The problem is that you can run into five or more kobolds in a single encounter, and each archer will have two attacks.
The same applies to bandits.
With ten or more attacks coming in every six seconds, you will get crit on average at least once every second round.
@Brude -15 vs Ranged isn't to to hard to get depending on class, usually do that combo for my mages, combined with lvl 1 shield spell, makes them less vulnerable to archer disruption, specially when stuff like Mirror Image and Stone Skin are added...
and wow...BG:EE will be interesting, be like playing the game for the first time all over again, figuring out where everything drops again, etc lol
& he sounds like clint eastwood
I'm talking of the classic BG1 with TotSC.
You are talking of Tutu I guess?
Because, in BG1, Khalid can use Composite Bows just fine.
*ducks*
Actually with a dex boost, Khalid can rock a bow...