If we're going for theoretical end-game only, level cap only, then Shar-Teel enters the discussion. Just saying. She's the best evil-aligned archer by base stats if you focus all the spec points you'd gain with her into archery, though one can argue for Eldoth because his poison arrow ability is pretty amazing (and for that reason alone).
Im not so sure about Shar-Teel. She has no proficiencies in ranged weapons and with the cap it is only possible to get 2 stars with her at lvl3 and at lvl6 so that blows her out of the picture. Khalid however has 1 pip in bows so can attain 3 stars at level6, thats only 32k exp, and thats where he becomes really close to Kivan. Like same close.
Khalid is PROBABLY the best tank in the game for good-aligned parties. Slap the gauntlets of Ogre Power on him and he's suddenly the single, solitary ONLY fighter in the game with significant bonuses to strength, dexterity and constitution. Ajantis with gauntlets of Dexterity are your next best bet and that's a good option.
I've honestly never considered using him as an archer for this reason. Kivan does it pretty much just as good, and is better at it for a lot longer. Coran as we've discussed also does a bang-up job.
Well the poll says who is the best archer. Apparently people vote for favorite character.
Or you could read what people are saying. People are picking Kivan because they agree he is more useful for a longer period of time; yes, Coran is better by the end but you have to wait so long to pick him up, etc.
Yeah, I think it's funny what these discussions reveal. For instance, a lot of people don't like Khalid just because of his in-game characterization and have little problem with his stats. A lot of people like Coran as an archer, but don't see him as a viable party member because the game is 75% done when you get him.
It doesn't trouble me that Coran must, because of his 14 Str, use a short bow versus a composite long bow. He's still a great archer. And as mentioned, one can always choose to put the gauntlets of ogre strength on him.
The main downside to him for me is that he becomes available later in the game, when I often already have assembled a party I like. For that reason I just tend not to use him much. He also has one of the goofiest portraits (not that that is a deal-breaker).
Well the poll says who is the best archer. Apparently people vote for favorite character.
Or you could read what people are saying. People are picking Kivan because they agree he is more useful for a longer period of time; yes, Coran is better by the end but you have to wait so long to pick him up, etc.
Coran isnt "by the end" he isnt even necessarily a midgame pick. It is very possible to get him early, just inconvenient and rather immersion breaking since it requires rushing on purpose. People could switch them once they meet, but dont, why? because by that time Kivan is their favorite character already. To get Coran basically its only needed to go to Nashkel and then back to Friendly Arm Inn, about 10 areas from gamestart, including walk-through wilderness parts, the rest of the game still ahead.
For me it has always been Kivan for some reason, so I always assumed he's the better archer. He's a killing machine and always have way more kills than Coran and I tend to use both of them.
The composite longbow strength bonus wasn't included in BG because they had alreacy included that bonus into the bow itself. That's why a regular composite longbow starts with +2 damage on it. I think Tanthalas and I figured this out one day when we were debunking a claim that someone made to Trent on twitter that an Elven Archer kit could crit for 40 at level 1 (Answer: They can't).
Well the poll says who is the best archer. Apparently people vote for favorite character.
Or you could read what people are saying. People are picking Kivan because they agree he is more useful for a longer period of time; yes, Coran is better by the end but you have to wait so long to pick him up, etc.
Coran isnt "by the end" he isnt even necessarily a midgame pick. It is very possible to get him early, just inconvenient and rather immersion breaking since it requires rushing on purpose. People could switch them once they meet, but dont, why? because by that time Kivan is their favorite character already. To get Coran basically its only needed to go to Nashkel and then back to Friendly Arm Inn, about 10 areas from gamestart, including walk-through wilderness parts, the rest of the game still ahead.
You mis-read. I didn't say he was "by the end." I meant that statistically, he IS better than Kivan, by the end of the game. Meanwhile, when you pick him up (which is NOT at the end of the game, agreed), he still isn't better than Kivan.
@Quartz ah, im sorry then. Looking at it this way Coran needs 128k exp to get to lvl7. I recall having 90k by the time i reached The City of Baldur, (good thing i noticed exp stopped flowing in. ) so Kivan is definitely worth considering as an archer. I too am not the guy who judges everything by end game stats heh. That having said 50k exp additional burden is not thaat much of a difference. Considering we get backstab for that, and backstab is pretty powerful if coupled with stealth, which Coran also gets, but thats ofc irrelevant for an archer comparison.
So that's what he actually says! In the German version, it's something along the lines of "What luck to be a woman", and I've always wondered what the heck he was talking about.
I think strength does affect backstab in vanilla BG1. Fighter_mage_thief is likely right...even though curiously his character appears just to be a fighter/thief with 4 int.
LOL. It was hard getting that 18/00 strength without items. And I mean REALLY hard. SACRIFICES HAD TO BE MADE!
p.s. I couldn't actually equip her with the Boots of Speed because she never learned how to tie her shoes!
While the Composite Long Bow or the Composite Long Bow +1 don't give strength damage bonuses, the Eagle Bow does (probably a bug). That makes it the best bow. I think by the time you get the Eagle Bow and the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, THAC0 is high enough that you don't miss out so much by not having the Long Bow of Marksmanship and the Bracers of Archery. At that point, the damage bonus is better than the THAC0 bonus. That actually leads on to another bonus of picking Kivan: if you give him the STR tome from Candlekeep, he doesn't need the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, so can regain the Bracers of Archery.
Kivan is better than Khalid at archery until Khalid reaches level 6 and gets *** in bows. They'd both have the Eagle Bow and the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. You could also give Khalid the DEX tome for +1 THAC0. Once you give the STR tome to Kivan, followed by the Bracers of Archery, he's better than Khalid again, but it's usually very late in the game. Regarding Coran, he's better than both of them, except for when you don't have him at the start obviously, and also when he's behind them after they reach level 7 and have an extra half attack. Normally in my parties, I take both Kivan and Coran, and don't bother with Khalid because of Jaheira.
Sharteel is a distant 4th place. She benefits from a high strength bonus, like Kivan. She'd be better than Khalid in all ways if she only had * in bows when you first get her. As it is though, she starts without any ranged weapon proficiency, and can only get ** by level 6.
Ajantis and Minsc are 5th and 6th best. Ajantis can get ** at level 3, but lacks a dexterity bonus. Minsc also lacks much dexterity, but makes up for it with his strength bonus, reducing his need for the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Strangely, Minsc starts with no proficiency in bows if you get him at level 1, but automatically has ** if you get him at level 4.
Montaron and Kagain are 7th and 8th best. Montaron suffers from being multiclass and not having bow proficiency. Kagain suffers from low DEX and bad proficiency.
Jaheira and Yeslick can't use bows or crossbows so are way down in 9th and 10th place. They're still better than the bow-using non-warriors though.
So that's what he actually says! In the German version, it's something along the lines of "What luck to be a woman", and I've always wondered what the heck he was talking about.
I added that one part after the 3 dots (ellipse) and end quote.
However, I always prefered Kivan; he usually lead my party in kills (even with Coran in my party) and I just liked Kivan better, I've had him in all my parties since I first started playing when I was 9; 9 years ago.
So that's what he actually says! In the German version, it's something along the lines of "What luck to be a woman", and I've always wondered what the heck he was talking about.
I added that one part after the 3 dots (ellipse) and end quote. I see. Now.
Coran is factually better - better dex and higher skill with bow. I'm not sure who's thaco develops faster, but at least in the first 10 or so levels Coran is better.
Without ToTSC, Khalid and Kivan end up neck and neck with Coran tied for 3rd. With TotSC installed, suddenly Coran can get his 7th fighter level, gets that last extra 1/2 attack and ends up beating them all again.
I used Coran in my last playthrough and was very impressed. Aside from his archer capabilities, he was a competent enough thief to mean I didn't need to devote another slot to one. That was win-win for me: a fighter-thief that didn't actually feel like a compromise on either part.
@hansolo That's sorta true, but the problem is you have to wait until late game for Khalid to match the other two.
Kivan and Coran are good "out of box," ie they're effective the second they first join your party.
That's not true of Khalid, who starts, iirc, with one star in bows in the original game. He has to reach level six -- mid to late game -- to match Kivan and approach Coran.
Sure, you can mod him with Shadowkeeper or Level1NPCs, but doing that makes a discussion about who is better rather pointless.
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I've honestly never considered using him as an archer for this reason. Kivan does it pretty much just as good, and is better at it for a lot longer. Coran as we've discussed also does a bang-up job.
For instance, a lot of people don't like Khalid just because of his in-game characterization and have little problem with his stats.
A lot of people like Coran as an archer, but don't see him as a viable party member because the game is 75% done when you get him.
The main downside to him for me is that he becomes available later in the game, when I often already have assembled a party I like. For that reason I just tend not to use him much. He also has one of the goofiest portraits (not that that is a deal-breaker).
Run away little goblins. Run away. :P
In BOTH games.
All hail BG1NPC!
ah, im sorry then. Looking at it this way Coran needs 128k exp to get to lvl7. I recall having 90k by the time i reached The City of Baldur, (good thing i noticed exp stopped flowing in.
I don't care if he can't even use bows. He's the best archer. Tiax rules all.
p.s. I couldn't actually equip her with the Boots of Speed because she never learned how to tie her shoes!
Kivan is better than Khalid at archery until Khalid reaches level 6 and gets *** in bows. They'd both have the Eagle Bow and the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. You could also give Khalid the DEX tome for +1 THAC0. Once you give the STR tome to Kivan, followed by the Bracers of Archery, he's better than Khalid again, but it's usually very late in the game. Regarding Coran, he's better than both of them, except for when you don't have him at the start obviously, and also when he's behind them after they reach level 7 and have an extra half attack. Normally in my parties, I take both Kivan and Coran, and don't bother with Khalid because of Jaheira.
Sharteel is a distant 4th place. She benefits from a high strength bonus, like Kivan. She'd be better than Khalid in all ways if she only had * in bows when you first get her. As it is though, she starts without any ranged weapon proficiency, and can only get ** by level 6.
Ajantis and Minsc are 5th and 6th best. Ajantis can get ** at level 3, but lacks a dexterity bonus. Minsc also lacks much dexterity, but makes up for it with his strength bonus, reducing his need for the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Strangely, Minsc starts with no proficiency in bows if you get him at level 1, but automatically has ** if you get him at level 4.
Montaron and Kagain are 7th and 8th best. Montaron suffers from being multiclass and not having bow proficiency. Kagain suffers from low DEX and bad proficiency.
Jaheira and Yeslick can't use bows or crossbows so are way down in 9th and 10th place. They're still better than the bow-using non-warriors though.
However, I always prefered Kivan; he usually lead my party in kills (even with Coran in my party) and I just liked Kivan better, I've had him in all my parties since I first started playing when I was 9; 9 years ago.
I see. Now.
Kivan and Coran are good "out of box," ie they're effective the second they first join your party.
That's not true of Khalid, who starts, iirc, with one star in bows in the original game. He has to reach level six -- mid to late game -- to match Kivan and approach Coran.
Sure, you can mod him with Shadowkeeper or Level1NPCs, but doing that makes a discussion about who is better rather pointless.